Committee for Finance Minutes of Proceedings

26 January 2022

Committee for Finance

Minutes of Proceedings

26 January 2022

Meeting Location:
The Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings

Present:
Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson
Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video or Teleconference:
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:
Philip McGuigan MLA

In Attendance:
Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

In Attendance by Video or Teleconference:
Ms Carla Campbell (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced at 2:01pm in open session

1.    Apologies

Apologies were as indicate above.

2.    Declaration of Interests

Matthew O’Toole declared an interest as the Chairperson of the All Party Group on Press Freedom and Media Sustainability.

3.    Chairperson’s Business

There was no Chairperson’s Business.

4.    Draft Minutes

Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday 19 January 2022.

5.    Matters Arising

There were no matters arising.

6.    Defamation Bill – Committee Stage – Formal Clause by Clause Scrutiny and Agreement of Report

The Committee noted the Bill Sponsor’s tabled amendments.

The session was reported by Hansard.

The Committee continued its formal clause by clause consideration of the Defamation Bill.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content to table its opposition to Clause 1 stand part of the Bill.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content to table its opposition to Clause 5 stand part of the Bill.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content to table its opposition to Clause 11 stand part of the Bill.

Members indicated that although they had not opposed the above motions, they would likely elect to vote and speak in support of some or all of the relevant clauses.     

Clause 18 Commencement

The Committee considered Clause 18 and the Bill Sponsor’s proposed amendments:

Bill Sponsor Amendments 25/01/2022

Clause 18, Page 10, Line 18

Leave out subsection 1 and insert-

‘(1) Section 5 comes into operation within 6 months of the day after the day on which this Act receives Royal Assent.’

Clause 18, Page 10, Line 19, at end insert-

‘(1A) Sections 17 and 19 come into operation on the day on which this Act receives Royal Assent.’

Clause 18, Page 10, Line 20

Leave out ‘such day or days as the Department may by order appoint’ and insert ‘the day after the day on which this Act receives Royal Assent.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content that Clause 18, as amended, be further amended in line with the Bill Sponsor’s proposed amendment.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content that Clause 18 as amended stand part of the Bill.

Clause 19 Short Title

The Committee considered Clause 19 as drafted including the Short Title of the Bill: Defamation Act (Northern Ireland) 2021.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content that Clause 19 as drafted stand part of the Bill.

Long Title

The Committee considered the Long Title as drafted: “A Bill to amend the law of defamation.”

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content with the Long Title, as drafted.

The Chairperson advised Members that the formal clause by clause scrutiny of the Defamation Bill had concluded.

The Committee considered a draft report on the Committee Stage of the Defamation Bill.

The Committee considered the Introduction section of the report, as drafted.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content with the Introduction section of the report.

The Committee considered the Committee Approach section of the report, as drafted.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content with the Committee Approach section of the report.

The Committee considered the Consideration of the Bill section of the report, as drafted.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content with the Consideration of the Bill section of the report.

The Committee considered the Clause by Clause Scrutiny section of the report, as drafted. A typographical error was highlighted.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content with the Clause by Clause Scrutiny section of the report, as amended.

The Committee considered the List of Appendices, as drafted.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content that the Appendices be included in the report.

The Committee considered the Executive Summary section of the report, as drafted.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content with the Executive Summary section of the report.

The Committee considered the Title Page, Committee Membership and Powers, and Table of Contents, as drafted.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content with the Title Page, Committee Membership and Powers, and Table of Contents.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content for the Chairperson to approve an extract from today’s minutes, that covers the consideration and approval of the Committee report, to be included in the appendices of the report.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content for the Report on the Committee Stage of the Defamation Bill to be published as its 6th Report of this mandate.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that links to the Bill Report should be sent to the Bill Sponsor, the Minister of Finance and all organisations and individuals who provided evidence to the Committee on the Bill.

The Chairperson thanked the Clerk and his team for the production of the report.

7.    Oral Evidence – Northern Ireland Fiscal Council – 2022-25 Draft Budget Report

The witnesses joined the meeting at 2:11pm.

  • Sir Robert Chote, Chairperson, Northern Ireland Fiscal Council.
  • Maureen O’Reilly, Council Member, Northern Ireland Fiscal Council.
  • Professor Alan Barrett, Council Member, Northern Ireland Fiscal Council.
  • Dr Esmond Birnie, Council Member, Northern Ireland Fiscal Council

The Committee noted the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council Report on the 2022-25 draft budget and Ministerial correspondence in relation to the establishment of the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council in legislation.

The witnesses briefed the Committee.

This was followed by a question and answer session.

The session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their briefing.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write to the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council seeking its understanding of the treatment of Unique Circumstances funding.

8.    Oral Evidence – January Monitoring Round Overview – Department of Finance

The officials joined the meeting at 3:45pm.

  • Joanne McBurney, Budget Director, Public Spending Directorate, Department of Finance.
  • Thomas Byrne, Public Spending Directorate, Department of Finance.
  • Ann Scott, Public Spending Directorate, Department of Finance

The officials briefed the Committee.

This was followed by a question and answer session.

Keith Buchanan indicated the importance of departmental expenditure which is value for money and which provides much needed support for the public.

The session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the officials for their briefing.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write to the Department of Finance seeking: clarity on the recently reported Ulster University loan and why Financial Transaction Capital was not used; information on the timing and numbers of payments to victims as part of the Troubles Permanent Disablement Pension Scheme; and an explanation of the policy in respect of the closure of the RHI scheme.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, copying the Committee for the Executive Office, the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council and the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in Westminster, seeking details of Unique Circumstances funding bids and allocations and indicating that the Committee may explore legal options to compel others to supply this information.  The Committee agreed to copy the letter to Members of the Committee for Finance.

9.    2nd LCM – Public Sector Pensions

The Committee considered correspondence from the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions; the Community Trade Union and the Department of Finance in relation to the 2nd Legislative Consent Motion (LCM) in respect of the Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill.

Members indicated that owing to the potential for the creation of a liability against the block grant if Northern Ireland was out-of-step with the rest of the UK, in respect of public sector pension cost caps, they had no option but to support the LCM.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to support the LCM indicating that it felt it had no other option and also indicating reservations in respect of the constrained timescales for consideration and the possibility of adverse impacts on public sector pensioners.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to seek clarification from the Department as to whether Treasury will indeed assume the risks associated with legacy public sector pension schemes.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write to the Department of Finance and the relevant trade unions indicating its position in respect of the LCM.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that the Chairperson should articulate its views at the relevant debate.

10. Subordinate Legislation: Energy Performance Certificates

The Committee noted the Department of Finance proposal to make a Statutory Rule: The Energy Performance of Buildings (Certificates and Inspections) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2022.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that it was content with the policy objectives and it was therefore content for the Department to make the rule.

11. Correspondence

11.1    Correspondence Index

The Committee noted an index of incoming correspondence.

11.2    Rates Valuations Covid Restrictions

The Committee noted a copy of correspondence (March 2020) from the Commissioner of Valuation and Director of Rating Policy to the Minister which related to the Non-domestic Rates Valuations (Coronavirus) Bill.

11.3    PSTF Achievements

The Committee considered a Departmental response to Committee’s queries on the Public Sector Transformation Fund and its use to support a Voluntary Exit Scheme in the NICS and wider public sector.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write again to the Department of Finance seeking further information on Northern Ireland Civil Service employee numbers and again asking it to answer the questions in relation to the role of the NICS Board.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write to the Comptroller and Auditor General suggesting that the Northern Ireland Audit Office revisit its report of 2016 into the Voluntary Exit Scheme and assesses the overall impact and effectiveness of this scheme.

11.4    Covid Support for the Hospitality Sector

The Committee noted a Departmental response providing clarity on the reported delay and timing of next steps for the Covid hospitality sector support scheme.

11.5    Decapitalisation Consultation

The Committee noted Departmental correspondence regarding the decapitalisation rate consultation.

11.6    ACM Cladding Scheme

The Committee noted Departmental correspondence on the estimated overall costs in respect of the Aluminium Composite Material repairs scheme and the role of the Building Safety Regulator.

11.7    NICS Absence Rates

The Committee considered a Departmental response to Committee’s request for information on NICS sickness absence.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write to the Department of Finance seeking clarity as to the number of NICS staff with covid and long covid and how these are categorised in the statistics.

11.8    Troubles Permanent Disablement Payments Scheme

The Committee noted correspondence from the Executive Office on roles and responsibilities for the Troubles Permanent Disablement Payments Scheme.

Jim Allister left the meeting at 4:36pm.

11.9    Dormant Account Funds 

The Committee noted the January 2022 update on the Dormant Accounts Fund.

11.10  Common Frameworks

The Committee considered correspondence from the Committee for the Executive Office asking for the Committee’s view regarding its experience of the scrutiny of Common Frameworks.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write to the Committee for the Executive Office indicating that the Committee had undertaken scrutiny of the relevant framework but that its high level nature had made this process difficult.

11.11  Budget 2022-25

The Committee considered correspondence from the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to the Department for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs outlining its discontent about the lack of provision of papers in relation to its 2022-25 multiyear budget proposals.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that the Clerk should follow up with the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to ascertain if papers had been subsequently provided.

11.12  January Monitoring Round

The Committee noted correspondence from the Committee for Education on January Monitoring Round.

11.13  Composite Information Request

Agreed:     The Committee agreed that the composite request was an accurate and complete record of the Committee’s outstanding information requests.

12. Forward Work Programme

The Committee considered a draft of its Forward Work Programme.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to schedule oral briefings on 2 February 2022 from:  Assembly Research on Covid spending; and the Department of Finance on building cladding and fire safety and on the LCM on the Architects Act.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to write to the Royal Society of Ulster Architects seeking its commentary on the LCM on the Architects Act.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed to schedule an oral briefing on 9 March 2022 from Land and Property Services on Reval 2023 and rates debt management issues.

Agreed:     The Committee agreed its Forward Work Programme, as amended.

13. Any Other Business

Pat Catney noted that German television had broadcast a clip from the Committee for Finance meeting of 24 February 2021.

There was no other business.

14. Date, Time and Place of the next meeting

The next meeting of the Committee for Finance will be at 2pm on Wednesday 2 February 2022 in the Senate and on Starleaf.

The meeting was adjourned at 4:40pm.

Dr Steve Aiken MLA
Chairperson, Committee for Finance
2 February 2022

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