Committee for Finance minutes of proceedings
Wednesday 1 September 2021
Present:
Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA
Present by Video-conference:
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Apologies:
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA
In Attendance:
Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm.
1. Apologies
There were no apologies.
Mr Philip McGuigan indicated he would be leaving the meeting early and would delegate authority to vote on his behalf to Mr Maolíosa McHugh under Temporary Standing Order 115(6).
2. Declaration of Interests
There were no declarations of interest.
3. Chairperson’s Business
There was no Chairperson’s Business.
4. Draft Minutes
Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday 7 July 2021.
5. Matters Arising
There were no matters arising.
6. Subordinate Legislation: Department of Finance Disposal and Retention Schedule
Members considered the Department of Finance Disposal and Retention Schedule, laid in the Assembly on 18 June 2021. Members noted a Departmental response in regards to retention periods assigned at Section 3, 1.1, Health & Safety and Section 3, 1.5, Premises.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department and seek sight of the relevant retention and disposal guidance and confirmation in respect of the stated three year review of disposal/retention timescales.
Agreed: The Committee agreed it had no objection to the Disposal and Retention Schedule.
7. Subordinate Legislation: SL1 The New NAV List (Time of Valuation) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021
The Committee considered SL1: The New NAV List (Time of Valuation) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that it had no objection to the proposed related policy inSL1: The New NAV List (Time of Valuation) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021 and was content for the Department of Finance to make the Rule.
8. Subordinate Legislation: SL1 The Financial Assistance (Coronavirus) (No.2) (Amendment No.2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021.
The Committee considered SL1: The Financial Assistance (Coronavirus) (No.2) (Amendment No.2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking clarification regarding ongoing unresolved Local Restrictions Support Scheme (LRSS) claims and asking why LRSS is to be removed from statute when it may be needed if pandemic restrictions are re-applied and seeking clarity as to how this may be done.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that it had no objection to the proposed related policy inSL1: The Financial Assistance (Coronavirus) (No.2) (Amendment No.2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021 and was content for the Department of Finance to make the Rule.
9. Statutory Instrument: The UK Statistics (Amendment Etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2021
The Committee noted Ministerial correspondence advising that the Minister has agreed that the Statutory Instrument: The UK Statistics (Amendment Etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2021, which is to be laid in the House of Commons shortly, will apply to Northern Ireland.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department and seek an explanation as to whether the Statutory Instrument was in keeping with the requirement to provide statistics to the European Union under the Northern Ireland Protocol.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to note the Statutory Instrument: The UK Statistics (Amendment Etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2021.
The Committee agreed to adopt a revised Agenda
10. Subordinate Legislation - SL1: The Financial Assistance (Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) Remediation Fund) (Private Residential Properties over 18m) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021.
The following Departmental officials joined the meeting at 2.16pm.
- Sharon Smyth, Director, Construction and Procurement Delivery;
- Michael Watson, Deputy Director, Construction and Procurement Delivery; and
- Billy Black, Head of Building Standards Branch.
The Committee noted related correspondence and briefing papers.
The Committee considered SL1: The Financial Assistance (Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) Remediation Fund) (Private Residential Properties over 18m) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021.
The Chairperson thanked the officials for their evidence.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking sight of the recently issued guidance on fire safety remediation and to ask that the Committee be kept updated in respect of the progress of the call for evidence; the outworking of the Remediation Fund; and the development of related fire safety building regulations.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that it had no objection to the proposed related policy in SL1:The Financial Assistance (Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) Remediation Fund) (Private Residential Properties over 18m) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021 and was content for the Department of Finance to make the Rule.
11. Correspondence
11.1 The Committee noted an index of incoming correspondence.
Mr Jim Allister left the meeting at 2:50pm
11.2 The Committee noted Ministerial correspondence advising the Committee that Westminster officials are drawing up legislation for a Procurement Reform Bill, aspects of which may extend to Northern Ireland subject to Executive/Assembly agreement.
Agreed: In response to an informal request from officials, the Committee agreed to share with the Department, previous correspondence from the Department for Justice on the costs of procurement related court action.
11.3 The Committee noted Ministerial correspondence on dilapidation payments indicating that although the Minister supports the Committee’s view that new legislation is required, it is contended that there is insufficient time in the present mandate.
11.4 The Committee considered a Ministerial response on the loss of critical banking services including a Ministerial commitment to continue engaging with both the Financial Services Union (FSU) and UK Finance in order to develop a banking forum which might consider, among other things, the impact of the total loss of banking services in a community.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the correspondence to the FSU, for its information.
The Chairperson declared an interest as having contacted Danske regarding the handling of communication of closures following announcement of the closure of a bank in his constituency
11.5 The Committee noted correspondence from Allied Irish Banks (AIB) on its recent strategic review announcing that it will close 60% of its branch network, including eight branches in November. The Committee also noted correspondence from Danske on the closure of a branch in Mallusk.
11.6 The Committee noted a press statement forwarded to the Committee by FSU on the announcement by AIB of branch closures.
11.7 The Committee considered correspondence from the Department providing the monthly forecast outturn for June and July 2021.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the correspondence to Assembly Research.
11.8 The Committee noted the Departmental Investing Activity Report for July 2021.
11.9 The Committee noted a Departmental response advising the Committee that although the pandemic has affected supply chains, it is not expected to affect delivery of the Executive’s capital programme.
Mr Jim Allister rejoined the meeting at 2.52pm
11.10 The Committee considered a response from Her Majesty’s Treasury (HMT) wherein the Chief Secretary to the Treasury again declined to appear before the Committee but advised that key budget decisions are made in the autumn which should allow enough time for Devolved Administrations to make and consult on budget decisions.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Minister seeking a timeline for the spending review and the publication of the anticipated multi-year budget.
11.11 The Committee considered correspondence from its Welsh and Scottish counterpart Committees on future co-operation.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to respond to both the Scottish and Welsh Finance Committees indicating its support for future co-operation and to share the related correspondence from HMT.
11.12 The Committee noted a copy of correspondence from the Department to the Committee for the Executive Office on Community Foundation NI and the use of participatory budgeting.
Mr Philip McGuigan left the meeting at 3:00pm
11.13 The Committee considered correspondence from the Department on the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between the Department and the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council (NIFC).
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Minister and NIFC welcoming the MoU but indicating its concern at the absence of an obligation or agreement on the part of other departments to co-operate with NIFC. The Committee also agreed to seek clarity as to how the Minister is to encourage and ensure the necessary engagement by other departments. The Committee also agreed to seek access to the relevant budget information provided to NIFC by departments.
11.14 The Committee considered a response from the Northern Ireland Fiscal Commission on its work programme including the publication of an interim report on further tax devolution before the end of this calendar year and seeking a Committee submission and meeting in order to inform the interim report.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to respond to the Commission indicating that it will not make a submission but will instead publicly scrutinise the Commission’s interim and final reports on the further devolution of tax varying powers.
11.15 The Committee noted a response from the Department for the Economy on the Presbyterian Mutual Society (PMS).
11.16 The Committee noted the Department’s Memorandum of Reply to the Public Accounts Committee review of the NIAO Report “Driver and Vehicle Agency 2019-20”.
11.17 The Committee considered the Department’s Memorandum of Reply to the Public Accounts Committee review of the NIAO Report “Capacity and Capability in the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS)”. It is understood that PAC will conclude its consideration of these matters later in September.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to note the relevant Memorandum of Reply pending the briefing by NICS HR on 3 November 2021.
11.18 The Committee noted a Departmental response on the key costs of the Victims’ Payment Scheme for Permanent Disablement (VPSPD). The Department clarified that the President of the VPSPD board is an existing High Court Judge and is compensated accordingly.
11.19 The Committee considered a Departmental response in respect of the proposed uplift of the Prescribed Fees in Schedule 1 and Schedule 2 of the Building (Prescribed Fees) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1997. The Department advised that the proposed increase of 35% was required, as fees have not increased since 2013 and the increase reflects cost recovery.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to note the correspondence pending receipt of a summary of responses on completion of the Departmental consultation (which has not yet started).
11.20 The Committee considered a Departmental response on building fire safety. The Department clarified that it is to legislate for a ban on combustible materials in relevant buildings in this mandate.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to seek a briefing from the Department when the relevant regulations are available.
11.21 The Committee noted a further Departmental response on building fire safety. The Departmentclarified that HOCS remained responsible for the Building Fire Safety programme but that the Department is to lead a related project board.
11.22 The Committee noted a Ministerial response to the Chairperson of the Committee for Communities on Changing Places Toilets (CPT).
11.23 The Committee considered a Departmental response as to why the CPT building regulations guidance do not oblige these facilities to be maintained. The Department explained that other legislation, such as The Workplace (Health Safety and Welfare) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1993, requires sanitary facilities to be kept in a clean and orderly condition and that building regulations can’t be used to oblige CPT facilities to be maintained.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to note the correspondence pending receipt of a summary of responses on completion of the Departmental consultation.
Mr Matthew O’Toole declared an interest as a Member of the Public Accounts Committee
11.24 The Committee noted a Departmental response clarifying that Ministerial Directions refer to circumstances where an Accounting Officer has concerns that the Minister’s actions cannot be justified on the grounds of regularity, propriety and/or value for money in line with Managing Public Money Northern Ireland (MPMNI). The Department clarified that there is no other class of non-MPM NI Ministerial Direction.
11.25 The Committee noted a response from the Northern Ireland Audit Office also clarifying that the Comptroller and Auditor General is unaware of non-MPM NI Ministerial Directions.
11.26 The Committee noted correspondence from the Committee for Justice regarding a call for evidence for The Justice (Sexual Offences and Trafficking Victims) Bill.
11.27 The Committee noted correspondence from the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs and the Department of Finance regarding a Call for Evidence for The Climate Change (No.2) Bill.
11.28 The Committee noted a response from the Minister for Justice on prison grade staff long term absence, indicating that long term absences in working days was lower than the overall NICS average (64.0 days) during this reporting period and highlighting unique matters pertaining to operational roles and effects from measures due to the pandemic.
11.29 The Committee considered a copy of correspondence from the House of Lords European Affairs Sub-Committee on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland to Her Majesty’s Treasury (HMT),seeking clarity on the impact on Northern Ireland businesses and engagement with the Executive in respect of EU regulation - 2021/414 that pertains to electronic systems for the exchange and storage of information.
Members also noted a HMT response indicating that the Trader Support Service will advise Northern Ireland businesses accordingly and that changes may follow UK Government discussions with the EU on the Protocol.
The Committee noted the absence of commentary on the relevant regulations by Executive departments.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to defer further consideration and asked the Clerk to obtain the additional annexes specified in the HMT response.
11.30 The Committee noted a copy of correspondence from the House of Lords European Affairs Sub-Committee on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland to HMT asking for a further update when discussion concludes on Article 8 and VAT in Northern Ireland.
11.31 The Committee also notedthe House of Lords European Affairs Sub-Committee on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland Introductory Report.
11.32 The Committee noteda response from the Trader Support Service on its client satisfaction figures indicating that inquiries appeared to drop by about half from March 2021 to June 2021 to around 33k.
Mr Jim Allister left the meeting at 3:20pm
11.33 The Committee notedthe Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce Quarterly Economic Survey Summary for the 2nd Quarter of 2021.
11.34 The Committee notedthe Institute for Government Report ‘UK Shared Prosperity Fund: Strengthening the Union or Undermining Devolution?’
11.35 The Committee considered the composite information request.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that the composite request was an accurate and complete record of the Committee’s outstanding information requests.
12. Any Other Business
There was no other business.
13. Date, Time and Place of the Next Meeting
The next meeting of the Committee for Finance will be at 2pm on Wednesday 8 September 2021 in the Senate and on Starleaf.
The Committee continued in closed session from 3:23pm
14. Forward Work Programme
The Committee considered a draft of its forward work programme.
Mr O’Toole highlighted the importance of both NICS reform and younger people joining the NICS.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to seek a meeting with the Head of the Civil Service on NICS reform.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to seek to arrange: a joint session with Scottish and Welsh counterpart committees regarding budget scrutiny when the Spending Review outcome is published.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to seek an informal meeting with the interim Permanent Secretary for the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to seek briefings on EU Exit and the Protocol which were relevant to its remit.
Agreed: The Committee agreed its forward work programme.
The meeting was adjourned at 3:45pm.
Dr Steve Aiken MLA
Chairperson, Committee for Finance
8 September 2021
