Minutes of Proceedings 29 September 2021
Committee for Finance
Minutes of Proceedings
29 September 2021
Meeting Location: Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings
Present:
Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA
Present by Video or Teleconference:
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Apologies: None
In Attendance:
Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Proceedings commenced at 2.00pm in closed session.
1. Legislative Consent Motion: Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill – written briefing
The Committee noted related papers from the Committee for Communities; the Committee for Justice, the Department of Finance and the Community Trade Union.
Pat Catney and Jim Wells joined the meeting at 2:04pm
Pat Catney declared an interest as a member of the board of the Northern Ireland Assembly Members Pension Scheme.
Jim Wells declared an interest as the chairperson of the board of the Northern Ireland Assembly Members Pension Scheme.
Members expressed a range of reservations in respect of the proposed payment model underpinning the reforms to public sector pensions as proposed by the UK Government.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that, notwithstanding its concerns, it had no option other than to support, or to not oppose, the passage of the Legislative Consent Motion.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Clerk should draft a report on the LCM setting out Members’ concerns for consideration at the meeting of 6 October 2021.
Agreed: The Committee further agreed that the Clerk should draft letters to both the Minister seeking relevant assurances and to the House of Lords Public Sector Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill Committee suggesting changes to the primary legislation in line with Members’ concerns
2. RHI Disciplinary Update – Department of Finance – oral briefing
The Departmental officials joined the meeting at 2:25pm.
- Colum Boyle, Interim Permanent Secretary;
- Jill Minne, Head of NICS HR and Strategic HR Director; and
- Hugh Widdis, Departmental Solicitor.
The Committee noted Departmental papers.
Pat Catney left the meeting at 2:26pm and delegated authority to vote to Matthew O’Toole under Standing Order 115(6).
Jemma Dolan joined the meeting at 2:26pm.
Proceedings moved into open session at 2:58pm.
Philip McGuigan left the meeting at 3:27pm and delegated authority to vote to Maoliosa McHugh under Standing Order 115(6).
Matthew O’Toole left the meeting at 3:52pm
The Chairperson thanked the officials for their briefing.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking:
- sight of the findings list generated from the RHI inquiry report and used by the external panel to identify individuals that required further disciplinary consideration;
- an update to the findings list showing the career progress of the individuals in question including particularly the grades to which they had been promoted in the interim;
- information on retraining or other measures taken in respect of those involved in the RHI scheme who were not in receipt of disciplinary action;
- a breakdown and explanation of the misconduct charges which were considered by the panels;
- clarification as whether those who were subject to disciplinary action or who evaded disciplinary action by leaving the NICS can be re-hired as consultants or as members of the NICS in the future;
- clarification as to why handover arrangements have only recently become mandatory; and
- confirmation that financial officers have received appropriate levels of training.
Agreed: The Committee also agreed to write to the Minister: indicating its dissatisfaction in respect of the outworking of the RHI disciplinary process; asking him to waive privilege and share relevant legal advice with the Committee; suggesting that he should seek further external legal advice which might enhance the disclosure of relevant information; and also seeking an update on the development and agreement of the RHI Action Plan.
3. 2021-22 Business Plan – Department of Finance – oral briefing
The Committee deferred consideration of this agenda item
4. Chairperson’s Business
4.1 Procurement: Voluntary and Community Sector
The Chairperson advised the Committee that the Minister has indicated during Question Time that he was to bring forward a further revision to procurement policy in respect of the voluntary and community sector.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking clarity on the proposed changes to procurement policy and the role of the voluntary and community sector.
4.2 House of Lords NI Protocol Committee
The Chairperson advised the Committee that he had received an invitation to meet informally with the House of Lords Committee on the Northern Ireland Protocol on 8 November 2021.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that it was content for the Chairperson to meet with the House of Lords Committee on 8 November 2021.
4.3 Chairpersons’ Liaison Group (CLG)
The Chairperson advised the Committee that CLG had advised of the substantial volume of committee and plenary business which Members would be required to consider in the coming months.
The Chairperson highlighted concerns in respect of the possible collapse of the Executive and the adverse impact on the budget process.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Minister seeking clarity as to how he might intend to undertake the budget development process and associated legal processes in the absence of a functioning Executive.
5. Apologies
There were no apologies.
Mr Philip McGuigan and Ms Jemma Dolan delegated authority to vote on their behalf for the duration of the meeting in the event of absence to Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA, under Temporary Standing Order 115(6).
6. Declaration of Interests
There were no other declarations of interest.
7. Draft Minutes
Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday 22 September 2021.
8. Matters Arising
There were no matters arising.
9. Correspondence
9.1 The Committee noted an index of incoming correspondence.
9.2 The Committee noted a Departmental response in respect of the provision of statistical data by the UK to the EU.
Mr Allister expressed his dismay in respect of the oppressive nature of the application of EU laws in Northern Ireland on foot of the Withdrawal Agreement.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking clarity in respect of reported compatibility issues in respect of the sharing of data between UK and EU information systems.
Jim Allister left the meeting at 4:24pm
Matthew O’Toole and Philip McGuigan rejoined the meeting at 4:24pm
9.3 The Committee noted Ministerial correspondence relating to Peace Plus funding.
Mr O’Toole and Mr Hugh expressed concerns at the prospect of the loss of Peace Plus funding in the event of the collapse of the Executive.
9.4 The Committee noted correspondence from the Committee for the Executive Office to the Minister in respect of the Community Renewal Fund and the Shared Prosperity Fund.
9.5 The Committee noted a Ministerial response on Barnett consequentials including those relating to the proposed increase in National Insurance contributions.
Jim Wells declared an interest as someone who pays social care costs.
Mr Wells indicated concerns that relevant Barnett consequentials would be redirected from social care to other health purposes.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking clarity in respect of the reported reduction in National Insurance consequentials from £400m to £300m.
9.6 The Committee noted a Departmental response on hypothecated and unhypothecated spending.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the relevant information to the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council for its information.
9.7 The Committee noted correspondence from the Public Accounts Committee in respect of hard-charging of departments for the use of the NICS estate.
9.8 The Committee noted a response from the Minister in respect of the provision of access to information-sharing between the Department and the Fiscal Council.
9.9 The Committee noted a copy of the Northern Ireland Food Strategy Framework consultation.
9.10 The Committee considered the composite information request.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that the composite request was an accurate and complete record of the Committee’s outstanding information requests.
10. Forward Work Programme
The Committee noted that an updated Bill Folder to support the Committee Stage of the Financial Reporting (Departments and Public Bodies) Bill would be shared with Members shortly.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department asking it to comment on the issues raised and amendments suggested during the call for evidence for the Committee Stage for the Financial Reporting (Departments and Public Bodies) Bill.
The Committee noted that the last day of the Committee Stage for the Defamation Bill is currently scheduled to be 2 November 2021.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to put down a motion to seek an extension to the Committee Stage to Friday 28 January 2022.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Bill Sponsor advising him of the anticipated timings for the Committee Stage of the Defamation Bill.
Agreed: The Committee agreed torevise its forward work programme in order to include briefings from: Professor Scott on the Defamation Bill; NI Fiscal Council on the Executive’s Budget; and the Fiscal Commission on its interim report.
Agreed: The Committee agreed its Forward Work Programme, as amended.
11. Any Other Business
There was no other business.
12. Date, Time and Place of the next meeting
The next meeting of the Committee for Finance will be at 2pm on Wednesday 6 October 2021 in the Senate and on Starleaf.
The meeting was adjourned at 4.39pm.
Dr Steve Aiken MLA
Chairperson, Committee for Finance
6 October 2021
