Minutes of Proceedings 22 September 2021
Committee for Finance
Minutes of Proceedings
22 September 2021
Meeting Location: Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings
Present:
Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA
Present by Video or Teleconference:
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Apologies:
Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
In Attendance:
Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Mr Michael Scholes (Research Officer) - item 9 only
The meeting commenced at 2.00pm in open session.
1.Apologies
Apologies were as indicated above.
Mr Philip McGuigan delegated authority to vote on his behalf for the duration of the meeting to Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA, under Temporary Standing Order 115(6).
2.Declaration of Interests
Mr Maolíosa McHugh declared an interest as a member of the Northern Ireland Teachers’ Pension Scheme
There were no other declarations of interest.
3.Chairperson’s Business
3.1 Informal meeting with the Permanent Secretary
The Deputy Chairperson updated Members on the informal meeting held on 20 September 2021 involving the Chairperson, the Deputy Chairperson, the interim Departmental Permanent Secretary and the deputy director of Communications and Engagement at the Department of Finance.
Discussion included:
- budget timescales and the Committee’s dissatisfaction with the provision of budget information – the Department is to write again to the Committee setting out the interaction between the Spending Review and the next draft budget and the budget planning which is being undertaken by departments for the next 3 financial years. The Department advised that departments have been asked to consider cuts of 2%; 4% and 8% for years 1, 2 and 3. The Department advised that it has been tasked to consider alternative sources of funding to support increased Research & Development in Northern Ireland.
- safety building regulations and the Committee’s concern that legislation and appropriate measures be put in place rapidly in order to limit the risks to any householders affected. The Department advised that it is considering options including possible provisions to permit the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to provide assistance to the Department in respect of the limited number of properties affected in Northern Ireland.
- staff resourcing issues in the Civil Service including the filling of the reported 4.5 thousand vacancies and replacement arrangements for HR Connect; Account NI and aspects of NI Direct, as well as the ongoing reviews of recruitment and performance management etc..
- the work of the Procurement Board. The Department agreed to provide an oral briefing on related progress later in 2021.
- the introduction of an Arms Length Body Bill before the end of the mandate;
- an RHI Action Plan which may be signed off by the Executive shortly; and
- a competition to provide for a permanent Permanent Secretary which might commence after Halloween and conclude in the new year.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to receive an oral briefing on progress in respect of the Procurement Board later in 2021.
4.Draft Minutes
Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday 15 September 2021.
5. Matters Arising
There were no matters arising.
6. Subordinate Legislation: SL1 The Female Genital Mutilation Protection Orders (Relevant Third Party) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021
Members considered the SL1 for The Female Genital Mutilation Protection Orders (Relevant Third Party) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021.
Agreed:The Committee agreed that it had no objection to the related policy and that it was content for the Department to make the rule.
7. Subordinate Legislation: SR 2021-255 The Business Tenancies (Coronavirus) (Restriction on Forfeiture: Relevant Period) (Northern Ireland) (No.3) Regulations 2021
Members considered SR 2021-255: The Business Tenancies (Coronavirus) (Restriction on Forfeiture: Relevant Period) (Northern Ireland) (No.3) Regulations 2021.
Mr Matthew O’Toole joined the meeting at 2:06pm
Agreed:The Committee agreed that it had considered the statutory rule: SR 2021-255 The Business Tenancies (Coronavirus) (Restriction on Forfeiture: Relevant Period) (Northern Ireland) (No.3) Regulations 2021 and, subject to the report of the Examiner of Statutory Rules, had no objection to the rule.
8. Subordinate Legislation: SR 2021/252 The Financial Assistance (Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) Remediation Fund) (Private Residential Properties over 18m) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021
Members considered SR 2021/252 The Financial Assistance (Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) Remediation Fund) (Private Residential Properties over 18m) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021.
Members considered tabled Ministerial correspondence on the Remediation Fund call for evidence.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that it had considered the statutory rule: SR 2021/252 The Financial Assistance (Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) Remediation Fund) (Private Residential Properties over 18m) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021 and, subject to the report of the Examiner of Statutory Rules, had no objection to the rule.
9. Oral Presentation: RaISe – Public Service Pension Reform
The researcher officer joined the meeting
- Michael Scholes, Research Officer, RaISe
The Committee considered a related research paper.
Mr Jim Wells declared an interest as chairperson of the Assembly Commission Members’ Pension Scheme
The Chairperson thanked the research officer for his presentation.
10. Oral Evidence: Public Sector Unions – Pension Reform and the Legislative Consent Memorandum (LCM) on the Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill
The witnesses joined the meeting at 2:29pm.
- Alison Millar, General Secretary Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA);
- Dessie Lowry, Union Representative, Royal College of Nursing (RCNI); and
- Nuala O'Donnell, Union Representative, Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO)
Mr Matthew O’Toole declared an interest as a member of the UK civil service pension scheme.
The session was recorded by Hansard.
The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.
11. Oral Evidence: Department of Finance – Legislative Consent Memorandum (LCM) on the Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill
The Committee considered Departmental papers on the LCM.
The officials joined the meeting at 3:21pm.
- Blathnaid Smyth, Assistant Director of Public Service Pensions, DoF; and
- Stephen Ball, Public Service Pensions Policy and Legislation Branch, DoF.
The session was recorded by Hansard.
Mr Jim Wells left the meeting at 3.46pm
The Chairperson thanked the officials for their evidence.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking: clarity in respect of the costs of the McCloud remedy; assurances in respect of financial advice for members and administrative support for schemes; assurances in respect of interest payments on additional contributions; and confirmation of the waiving of additional contributions for the relatives of deceased scheme members.
Agreed: The Committee also agreed to give further consideration to the LCM in closed session on 29 September 2021.
12. Correspondence
12.1 The Committee noted an index of incoming correspondence.
12.2 The Committee considered further correspondence from a former NICS employee.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to respond again to the individual stating that the Committee has no role in respect of HR disputes and therefore regrettably can be of no further assistance.
12.3 The Committee consideredcorrespondence from theDepartment notifying it of revisions to delegation limits for departments.
Agreed: The Committee agreedto write to the Department seeking sight of the report of the related review of expenditure approval and business case processes
12.4 The Committee noted a response from the Department advising that all unpaid Localised Restrictions Support Scheme (LRSS) appeals have been heard and none are outstanding. The Committee also noted that including the Covid Restrictions Business Support Schemes (CRBSS) offsets there are a total of 1,911 LRSS applications on hold. The Department advised that where evidence is available to demonstrate eligibility, LRSS payments at the appropriate rate and period will be made to all those businesses who meet the eligibility criteria.
The Committee noted that the interim Permanent Secretary had appeared to indicate informally that there may be further issues with LRSS payments.
12.5 The Committee noted a Departmental response explaining the Special Advisors salary cost increase from 2016-17 to 2020-21 which was owing to the collapse of the Executive in 2016-17.
12.6 The Committee noted a copy of correspondence from the Committee for Justice to the Minister of Finance regarding the potential for Barnett consequentials to fund a GP indemnity scheme in Northern Ireland.
12.7 The Committee considered a Departmental response regarding the Climate Change No.2 Bill which identified considerable capital costs and staffing commitments for the Executive. The Department advised that a budget setting process for 2022-23 to 2024-25 was underway in all departments and that the relevant costs would be set out accordingly.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department (copying in statutory committees) and ask that as a standard practice all departments make their 3 year budgets available to their committees (in April) of each year.
12.8 The Committee noted correspondence from the Fiscal Council advising that other departments have indicated positively in respect of developing Memorandums of Understanding and advising against the Committee becoming party to this information-sharing conduit as this may limit candour.
12.9 The Committee noted correspondence from the Fiscal Council advising that the Fiscal Council won’t produce a report on the Spending Review but will instead probably report on the Executive’s draft budget when it becomes available.
12.10 The Committee noted correspondence from the Minister advising that legislation will not be brought forward in this mandate in respect of an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland and that drafting of the Bill will only be complete by April 2022.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Minister indicating its disappointment that a Bill will not be brought forward in this mandate and seeking assurance that the legislation will be brought forward as soon as possible and asking for regular progress updates.
12.11 The Committee considered a response from The Executive Office declining to provide information to the Committee on Unique Circumstances funding.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department (and to statutory committee chairpersons) seeking sight of the detailed departmental spending plans provided to the Northern Ireland Office in respect of Unique Circumstances funding.
12.12 The Committee considered Ministerial correspondence advising that changes to Land Registration Fees will not be made in the present mandate owing to uncertainty in the property market and the likelihood that Land Registration Fee income surpluses will consequently reduce.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking clarification on the actual and projected surpluses rather than just the income from Land Registration Fees.
12.13 The Committee considered a response from the Department indicating that previous monthly forecasts did not include a very substantial projected underspend as this was a “central (funding) matter” and that a new section has now been added to monthly reports to include “central (funding) matters”.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department seeking clarity on “central (funding) matters” and asking that the monthly figures show how much money is being held centrally and also seeking clarity as to why this very substantial projected underspend was not raised during the Budget (No.1) Bill debates in March 2021.
12.14 The Committee considered the monthly forecast and expenditure outturn for August.
Agreed: The Committee agreedto share the information with RaISe and with the relevant statutory committees where underspends or overspends are identified.
12.15 The Committee noted a Departmental response to Committee’s queries regarding disposal and retention schedules.
12.16 The Committee noted an update from the Assembly EU Manager on the development of Common Frameworks. The Committee noted that a revised Procurement Framework is to be issued by end of October 2021.
12.17 The Committee noted a copy of further correspondence from the House of Lords Sub-committee on the Protocol to HM Treasury regarding EU Regulation 414/2021 dealing with import/export information systems.
Agreed: The Committee agreedto share previous related correspondence to TEO with the Chairpersons’ Liaison Group, for its information.
12.18 The Committee considered the composite information request.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that the composite request was an accurate and complete record of the Committee’s outstanding information requests.
13. Forward Work Programme
The Committee noted the revised timings for the consideration of the Financial Reporting (Departments and Public Bodies) Bill.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to give consideration to the need for further oral briefings on the Financial Reporting (Departments and Public Bodies) Bill and to bring forward amendments for Committee consideration in advance of the scheduled clause by clause scrutiny session.
Agreed: The Committee also agreed to amend the forward work programme to include a possible Fiscal Council briefing on the Executive’s draft budget.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to give further consideration to extending the timing of the conclusion of the Committee Stage of the Defamation Bill.
Agreed: The Committee agreed toshare the Defamation Bill with the Examiner of Statutory Rules and to seek her views on the delegated powers associated with the Bill.
Agreed: The Committee agreed its Forward Work Programme, as amended.
14. Any Other Business
There was no other business.
15. Date, Time and Place of the next meeting
The next meeting of the Committee for Finance will be at 2pm on Wednesday 29 September 2021 in the Senate and on Starleaf.
The meeting was adjourned at 4.25pm.
Dr Steve Aiken MLA
Chairperson, Committee for Finance
29 September 2021
