Public Accounts Committee
Minutes of proceedings 2 October 2025
Public Accounts Committee minutes of proceedings 2 October 2025.pdf (173.38 kb)
Meeting Location: Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings
Present:
Diane Forsythe, MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Colm Gildernew MLA
Cathal Boylan, MLA
David Honeyford, MLA
Present by Video or Teleconference:
Daniel McCrossan, MLA (Chairperson)
Stephen Dunne, MLA
Pádraig Delargy, MLA
Apologies:
Tom Buchanan, MLA
In Attendance:
Lucia Wilson (Committee Clerk)
Kirsten McClelland (Assistant Committee Clerk)
Karen Barry (Clerical Supervisor)
Yannie Mahood (Clerical Officer)
The meeting opened in public session at 2.07 pm.
1. Apologies
Apologies were received from, Tom Buchanan, MLA.
2. Draft minutes
Agreed: Members agreed the draft minutes of the meeting on 25 September 2025.
3. Declaration of Interests
The Chairperson reminded members of the requirement to register their interests under Standing Order 69(5).
Diane Forsythe, MLA declared an interest as APS to the Education Minister.
Cathal Boylan, MLA declared an interest as a member of the Board of Governors of Clea Primary School, Keady.
Pádraig Delargy, MLA declared an interest as a member of the Board of Governors of Holy Child Primary School, Creggan, and former teacher.
David Honeyford, MLA declared an interest as a member of the Board of Governors of Dromara Primary School.
4. Chairperson’s Business
5. Matters Arising
Members considered a draft response to the consultation on the Review of Assembly Committee Engagement on Crosscutting Executive Strategies.
Agreed: Members agreed the response and for it to be sent to the Assembly and Executive Review Committee.
6. Correspondence
Members considered a letter from a member of the public regarding planning matters in Newry, Mourne and Down Council.
Agreed: Members agreed that this matter falls outside of the remit of the Public Accounts Committee and the member of the public should be referred to the Local Government Auditor or the Northern Ireland Public Services Ombudsman.
7. Reducing Adult Reoffending in Northern Ireland: Memorandum of Reply
The following officials joined the meeting at 2.11pm.
Dorinnia Carville, Comptroller and Auditor General;
Tomas Wilkinson, Director, Northern Ireland Audit Office;
Members considered the memorandum of reply in respect of its report into Reducing Adult Reoffending in Northern Ireland.
Pádraig Delargy, MLA joined the meeting at 2.13 pm.
Members considered the Memorandum of Reply and identified a number of areas where further information was required.
Agreed: Members agreed to write to the Department of Justice to seek further information in a number of areas.
Diane Forsythe, MLA joined the meeting at 2.17 pm.
The Chairperson thanked officials for attending.
Officials left the meeting at 2.18 pm.
The meeting moved into closed session at 2.18 pm.
8. Managing the Schools’ Estate: Formal Consideration of Draft Report
The following officials joined the meeting at 2.18pm.
Dorinnia Carville, Comptroller and Auditor General;
Patrick Barr, Director, Northern Ireland Audit Office;
Peter O’Sullivan, Audit Manager, Northern Ireland Audit Office;
The Committee noted the draft report is classified as RESTRICTED for Members’ attention and therefore should not be published more widely.
The Committee noted the first formal consideration for the report ‘Managing the Schools’ Estate’, and agreed the title of the report is ‘Managing the Schools’ Estate’.
The Committee made the following decisions regarding each section and paragraphs within the report, that is – Agreed, Agreed as amended or to be reworded.
Section ‘Introduction’: Paragraphs 16 – 17
Paragraph 16: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 17: Read and Agreed
Section ‘Background’: Paragraphs 18 – 22
Paragraph 18: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 19: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 20: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 21: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 22: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: The School Estate is in unacceptably poor condition for children and staff and action is long overdue.
Paras 23 – 25
Paragraph 23: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 24: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 25: Read and Agreed
To be reworded: Section Title: A comprehensive estate management strategy to manage the schools’ estate is urgently needed.
Paras 26 – 32
Paragraph 26: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 27: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 28: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 29: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 30: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 31: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 32: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 1: To be reworded
Recommendation 2: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: Greater collaboration, together with improved governance and accountability arrangements are required.
Paras 33 – 37
Paragraph 33: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 34: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 35: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 36: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 37: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 2: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: The Department needs a single system to significantly improve its inadequate and outdated data
Paras 38 – 40
Paragraph 38: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 39: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 40: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 3: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 4: Read and Agreed
Paras 41 – 42
Paragraph 41: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 42: Read and Agreed
To be reworded: Section Title: The maintenance backlog is growing and must be urgently addressed.
Paras 43 – 48
Paragraph 43: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 44: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 45: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 46: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 47: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 48: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 5: To be reworded
Para 49
Paragraph 49: Read and Agreed
To be reworded: Section Title: The potential benefits of delegated maintenance and enhanced school autonomy must be prioritised.
Paras 50 – 53
Paragraph 50: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 51: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 52: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 53: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 6: Read and Agreed
Stephen Dunne, MLA left the meeting at 2.38 pm.
To be reworded: Section Title: Inadequate Special Educational Needs (SEN) estate provision is a growing issue that must be addressed urgently.
Paras 54 – 56
Paragraph 54: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 55: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 56: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 7: To be reworded
Agreed: Section Title: Educational outcomes and impact on safety must be key focus of estate management.
Paras 57 – 62
Paragraph 57: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 58: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 59: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 60: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 61: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 62: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: Climate change and net zero responsibilities cannot be ignored.
Paras 63 – 66
Paragraph 63: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 64: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 65: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 66: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 67: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 68: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 8: Read and Agreed
To be reworded: Section Title: The risks and benefits of transitioning PFI/PPP assets needs to be planned.
Paras 67 – 69
Paragraph 67: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 68: To be reworded
Paragraph 69: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 9: Read and Agreed
To be reworded: Section Title: The management of vacant school properties could be improved.
Paras 70 - 77
Paragraph 70: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 71: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 10: Read and Agreed
The Committee then returned to the Executive Summary paragraphs 1 to 15 and agreed the following:
Paragraph 1: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 2: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 3: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 4: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 5: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 6: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 7: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 8: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 9: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 10: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 11: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 12: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 13: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 14: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 15: Read and Agreed
Recommendations 1 to 10:
Recommendation 1: To be reworded
Recommendation 2: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 3: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 4: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 5: To be reworded
Recommendation 6: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 7: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 8: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 9: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 10: Read and Agreed
That concluded the first consideration of the report – Managing the Schools’ Estate
Agreed: The Committee agreed to bring the amended Report to its meeting on
9 October 2025 for final consideration.
The Chairperson thanked officials for attending.
Officials left the meeting at 3.13pm.
Members considered a draft media release.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to re-consider the draft media release, at next week’s meeting.
9. Forward Work Programme
The following officials joined the meeting at 3.11 pm.
Patrick Barr, Director, Northern Ireland Audit Office;
Members were briefed on the Northern Ireland Audit Office report on Active Travel in Northern Ireland
Agreed: Members agreed to release the report on Active Travel from Primacy and inform the Infrastructure Committee.
Agreed: Members agreed the updated draft forward work programme.
Agreed: Daniel McCrossan, MLA, Cathal Boylan, MLA and David Honeyford, MLA confirmed that they will attend the BIMR PAC Conference in November 2025.
10. Any Other Business
11. Date, Time, and Place of the next meeting
The next meeting will take place in the Senate Chamber on Thursday 9 October 2025 at 2.00 pm.
The meeting was adjourned at 3.35 pm.
Daniel McCrossan
Chairperson, Public Accounts Committee
9 October 2025
