Public Accounts Committee
Minutes of Proceedings - 6 June 2024
Public Accounts Committee - Minutes of Proceedings 6 June 2024.pdf (179.98 kb)
Meeting Location: Room 30, Parliament Buildings
Present:
Daniel McCrossan, MLA (Chairperson)
Cheryl Brownlee, MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Cathal Boylan, MLA
David Honeyford, MLA
John Stewart, MLA
Present by Video or Teleconference:
Pádraig Delargy, MLA
Apologies:
Diane Forsythe, MLA
Colm Gildernew, MLA
In Attendance:
Lucia Wilson (Committee Clerk)
Kirsten McClelland (Assistant Committee Clerk)
Karen Barry (Clerical Supervisor)
Barbara Daly (Clerical Officer)
The meeting commenced at 2.06 pm in closed session
The Chairperson advised members of the requirement to declare interests in any items of business on the agenda, and discussed the substantive items of business to be considered.
The meeting commenced at 2.09 pm in public session
Cheryl Brownlee, MLA, joined the meeting at 2.09 pm
1. Apologies
Apologies were received from Diane Forsythe, MLA and Colm Gildernew, MLA.
The Chairperson expressed condolences on behalf of the Committee and it’s members to Colm Gildernew and the wider Gildernew family following the tragic loss of his nephew Fiachra.
Agreed: Members agreed to send a letter of condolence to Colm and the wider Gildernew Family.
2. Draft minutes
Agreed: The draft minutes of the meeting on 30 May 2024 were agreed.
3. Matters Arising
Members noted correspondence dated 30 May 2024 from Permanent Secretary Neil Gibson following up on matters raised during the evidence session on Public Procurement in Northern Ireland. This correspondence has been shared with the Northern Ireland Audit Office for consideration and inclusion in the draft report.
Members noted correspondence of 31 May 2024 from the Committee for Education regarding its intention to seek an informal briefing from the Northern Ireland Audit Office in respect of education matters.
4. Chairperson’s Business
No Chairperson’s business was raised.
5. Declaration of Interests
Mr Pádraig Delargy, MLA declared an interest as Chair of the All Party Group on Mental Health.
Mr Honeyford MLA declared an interest as his wife works for the Education Authority.
6. Correspondence
No correspondence was received.
7. Memorandum of Reply: Closing The Gap – Social Deprivation and Links to Educational Attainment - Briefing
The meeting moved into closed session at 2.40 pm.
The following officials from the Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO) joined the meeting at 2.13 pm.
Ms Dorinnia Carville, Comptroller and Auditor General, NIAO
Mr Patrick Barr, Director, NIAO
Mr Andrew Allen, Audit Manager, NIAO
Mr Kyle Bingham, Assembly Support Officer, NIAO
Members received a preparatory briefing from the Northern Ireland Audit Office in advance of the questioning session with Department for Education Officials.
The meeting moved into public session at 2.22 pm.
8. Memorandum of Reply: Closing The Gap – Social Deprivation and Links to Educational Attainment – Evidence Session
The following officials joined the meeting at 2.22 pm.
Dr Mark Browne, Permanent Secretary and Accounting Officer, Department for Education
Ms Linsey Farrell, Deputy Secretary, Education Policy & Children’s Services
Mr Peter Hutchinson, Director, Raising Aspirations, Supporting Learning & Empowering Improvement
Mr Stuart Stevenson, Treasury Officer of Accounts, Department of Finance
Ms Julie Sewell, Public Audit and Accountability Branch, Department of Finance
Members heard further evidence from Officials in response to the Memorandum of Reply provided by the Department.
Agreed: Members agreed to request further information from the department regarding other funding sources available to schools to address the attainment gap, including how the Department assesses the impact of these schemes.
Agreed: Members agreed to seek a list of evaluation and success criteria for the Reducing Educational Disadvantage, now Raise programme from the Department.
Officials left the meeting at 4.00 pm.
The Chair proposed that Agenda item 10, a briefing session in advance of the commencement of the inquiry into Child Poverty in Northern Ireland be deferred due to time constraints.
Agreed: Members agreed to defer this agenda item for inclusion with other relevant matters on 13 June 2024.
Agreed: Members agreed to update the Committee for Education on the outcome of the review of the Memorandum of Reply on ‘Closing The Gap’.
The meeting moved into closed session at 4.01 pm.
9. First Consideration of Report ‘Mental Health Services in Northern Ireland’
The following officials from the Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO) joined the meeting at 4.01 pm.
Ms Dorinnia Carville, Comptroller and Auditor General, NIAO
Mrs Collette Kane, Director, NIAO
Mr Rodger McCance, Audit Manager, NIAO
Mr Kyle Bingham, Assembly Support Officer, NIAO
Mr Damien Prenter, Senior Auditor, NIAO (Remote)
The Clerk advised members of further detail received from Cathal Boylan, MLA, and Diane Forsythe, MLA which has been considered in the drafting of the draft report.
The Committee noted the draft report is classified as RESTRICTED for Members’ attention and therefore should not be published more widely.
The Committee noted this is the first formal consideration for the report ‘Mental Health Services in Northern Ireland and agreed the title of the report is ‘Mental Health Services in Northern Ireland’.
The Committee made the following decisions regarding each section and paragraphs within the report, that is – Agreed, Agreed as amended or to be reworded.
Section ‘Introduction’: Paragraph 42
Paragraph 42: Read and Agreed
Section ‘Background’: Paragraphs 43 – 45
Paragraph 43: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 44: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 45: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘While an overarching mental health strategy is now in place, implementation to date has been disappointing and its impact is yet to be felt by users’. Paras 46 - 56
Paragraph 46: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 47: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 48: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 49: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 50: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 51: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 52: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 53: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 54: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 55: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 56: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘Workforce is a major concern and critical to the transformation of services’. Paras 57 - 62
Paragraph 57: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 58: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 59: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 60: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 61: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 62: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘There are compelling economic arguments for spending more on mental health but significant improvements to outcomes measurement are required before they do so’’. Paras 63 - 68
Paragraph 63: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 64: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 65: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 66: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 67: Consideration deferred
Agreed: Members agreed to contact the Department of Health to seek clarification in respect of figures provided in an All Party Group report on spending on early intervention and will revisit paragraph 67, thereafter. .
Paragraph 68: Read and Agreed
Agreed as amended: Section Title: ‘Data on mental health services has been unacceptably poor and needs to be improved urgently’. Paras 69 - 77
Paragraph 69: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 70: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 71: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 72: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 73: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 74: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 75: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 76: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 77: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘Better access to CAMHS services is needed to tackle mental health issues early’. Paras 78 – 84
Paragraph 78: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 79: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 80: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 81: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 82: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 83: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 84: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘Waiting lists in mental health are too long and action is needed urgently’. Paras 85 – 90
Paragraph 85: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 86: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 87: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 88: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 89: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 90: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘As a result of a lack of crisis services, those in need are forced to attend Emergency Departments’. Paras 91 – 93
Paragraph 91: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 92: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 93: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘Early Intervention and collaboration across government are key in managing future demands on mental health services’. Paras 94 – 99
Paragraph 94: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 95: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 96: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 97: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 98: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 99: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘The voluntary and community sector play a vital role in providing mental health services and more engagement is needed with this sector’. Paras 100 – 104
Paragraph 100: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 101: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 102: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 103: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 104: Read and Agreed
Agreed: Section Title: ‘There are a number of gaps in services and the Department needs to plan now for how they can be addressed’. Paras 105 – 107
Paragraph 105: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 106: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 107: Read and Agreed
The Committee then returned to the Executive Summary paragraphs 1 to 21 and agreed the following:
Paragraph 1: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 2: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 3: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 4: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 5: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 6: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 7: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 8: Agreed as amended
Paragraph 9: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 10: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 11: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 12: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 13: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 14: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 15: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 16: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 17: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 18: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 19: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 20: Read and Agreed
Paragraph 21: Read and Agreed
John Stewart, MLA, left the meeting at 4.30 pm.
Recommendations 1 to 16: Paragraphs 22 to 41
Recommendation 1 Paragraph 22: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 2 Paragraph 23: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 2 Paragraph 24: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 3 Paragraph 25: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 3 Paragraph 26: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 3 Paragraph 27: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 4 Paragraph 28: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 5 Paragraph 29: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 6 Paragraph 30: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 7 Paragraph 31: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 8 Paragraph 32: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 9 Paragraph 33: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 9 Paragraph 34: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 10 Paragraph 35: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 11 Paragraph 36: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 12 Paragraph 37: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 13 Paragraph 38: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 14 Paragraph 39: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 15 Paragraph 40: Read and Agreed
Recommendation 16 Paragraph 41: Read and Agreed
That concluded the first consideration of the report – ‘Mental Health Services in Northern Ireland’.
Agreed: The Committee agreed the Appendices of the report will include:
Extracts from the minutes
Hansard
Correspondence
Agreed: The Committee agreed to bring the amended Report to next week’s Committee meeting, 13 June 2024 for final consideration.
Officials left the meeting at 4.43 pm.
10. Inquiry on Child Poverty in Northern Ireland – Briefing Session
This agenda item was deferred until 13 June.
11. Forward Work Programme
The Committee was briefed on the draft Forward Work programme.
Agreed: Members agreed the forward work programme and to advise the Clerk of their availability to attend future meetings.
The Committee was briefed on the proposed agenda and invitees for the launch of the ‘Mental Health Services in Northern Ireland’ Report on 20th June 2024.
Agreed: Members agreed the draft agenda and invitees for the launch.
Agreed: Members agreed to issue invitations in the week commencing 10th June 2024.
12. Any Other Business
The Chair reminded members of Committee business planned prior to the Westminster Election on 4th July 2024. Members were requested to notify the Clerk of apologies at the earliest opportunity to ensure that meetings will be quorate.
13. Date, Time and Place of the next meeting
The Chairperson advised members that the next meeting is scheduled for Thursday 13th June, at 2.00 pm in Room 21, Parliament Buildings.
The meeting was adjourned at 4.44 pm.
Daniel McCrossan MLA
Chairperson, Public Accounts Committee
6 June 2024
