Public Accounts Committee

Minutes of Proceedings 21 March 2024

Public Accounts Committee minutes of proceedings 21 March 2024.pdf (163.58 kb)

Meeting Location: Room 21, Parliament Buildings

Present:                   

Daniel McCrossan, MLA (Chairperson)

Cathal Boylan, MLA

Diane Forsyth, MLA

Colm Gildernew, MLA

David Honeyford, MLA

John Stewart, MLA

Present by Video or Teleconference:

Pádraig Delargy, MLA

Apologies:   

Cheryl Brownlee, MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Tom Buchanan, MLA

In Attendance:       

Lucia Wilson (Committee Clerk)

Kirsten McClelland (Assistant Committee Clerk)

Karen Barry (Clerical Supervisor)

Barbara Daly (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced at 2.04 pm in closed session

The Chairperson advised members of the requirement to declare interests in any items of business on the agenda, and discussed the substantive items of business to be considered.

The meeting moved into public session at 2.08 pm.

1.      Apologies

Apologies were received from Cheryl Brownlee MLA and Tom Buchanan MLA.

2.      Draft minutes

Agreed:         The draft minutes of the meeting on 7 March 2024 were agreed.

3.      Matters Arising

Members noted a response from NIAO, providing further information to Colm Gildernew MLA, regarding the Ministerial Direction in respect of the Belfast Distillery Company.

Members agreed a draft response to the letter dated 7 March from the Chair of the Audit Committee providing a view on the draft Budget 2024-25 for the Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO).

Agreed: PAC to write to the Chair of the Audit Committee to provide a view on the draft Budget 2024-25 for NIAO.

Members noted that Peter May, Permanent Secretary, DoH has confirmed that he will attend the PAC evidence session scheduled for 25 April 2024 alongside a number of departmental officials.

Members noted the letter of the 15 March 2024 from the Treasury Officer of Accounts (ToA) providing follow-up information arising from his introductory briefing on 29 February, on the process to assess value for money, and how opportunity costs are assessed, when projects are not progressed. ToA also provided additional information to members on the status of guidance and the selection of witnesses to attend evidence sessions.

4.      Chairperson’s Business

No Chairperson’s business was raised.

5.      Declaration of Interests

The Chairperson reminded members of their requirement to register their interests under Standing Order 69(5).

No specific interests were declared.

6.      Correspondence

The following officials from the Northern Ireland Audit Office joined the meeting at 2.13 pm:

Ms Dorinnia Carville, Comptroller and Auditor General, Northern Ireland Audit Office;

Mr Rodney Allen, Chief Operating Officer, Northern Ireland Audit Office;

Mr Kyle Bingham, Assembly Support Officer, Northern Ireland Audit Office.

The Chairperson thanked NIAO Officials for their hospitality in facilitating a visit for members which included a tour of their offices on 14 March 2024.

Members noted correspondence dated 26 February from a member of the public to the Economy Committee on the function of NI Assembly Committees, and research carried out by the correspondent into the university sector, which has been copied into this Committee.

Members noted further correspondence from the same correspondent, dated 11 March 2024, providing statistical evidence of historical equality and auditing failures in the university sector.

The C&AG provided a briefing to members regarding a letter copied to the Committee from the Department of Finance to the Chair of the Finance Committee regarding NIAO draft budgets for 2024-25 in response to a letter from the Comptroller and Auditor General requesting some points of clarification on the draft budget.

Diane Forsythe MLA declared an interest in this matter as a member of the Finance Committee.

Members agreed to note this correspondence.

7.      Memorandum of Reply – Review of the Northern Ireland Budget Process and Addiction Services in Northern Ireland

The Committee received a briefing on the Memoranda of Reply received from Departments.

The Committee noted the Department of Finance’s Memorandum of Reply (MoR) on the Committee’s twelfth report of the 2017-2022 mandate, on the Review of the Northern Ireland Budget Process.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to refer this MoR to the Finance Committee.

The Committee noted the Department of Health’s further MoR on the Committee’s ninth report of the 2017-2022 mandate, on Addiction Services in Northern Ireland.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to further review this MOR in twelve months.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to Peter May, Permanent Secretary DoH to advise that members may wish to ask questions on the MOR on Addiction Services in Northern Ireland at it’s evidence session on 25 April 2024.

8.      Ministerial Direction

The Committee received a briefing on Ministerial Direction – Enhanced Flood Relief Scheme.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to refer the Ministerial Direction to the Economy Committee for their information.

Officials left the meeting at 2.44 pm.

9.      Briefing from ToA on the use of Ministerial Directions in Northern Ireland

The following officials from the Department of Finance joined the meeting at 2.44 pm:

Mr Stuart Stevenson, Treasury Officer of Accounts;

Ms Julie Sewell, Public Audit and Accountability Branch.

The Committee received a briefing on Ministerial Directions in Northern Ireland.

Ms Forsyth left the meeting at 14:52 pm

Ms Forsyth re-joined the meeting at 14:54 pm

Agreed: The ToA agreed to report back to the Committee following a consultation and benchmarking exercise scheduled to take place with colleagues from other parliamentary jurisdictions after Easter on the use of Ministerial Directions in other jurisdictions.

Agreed: The ToA agreed to revert to the Committee to provide further detail on the use of Ministerial Directions by the Department of Agriculture in 2017.

Agreed: The ToA agreed to revert to the Committee to provide further detail on the volume of Ministerial Directions used following the RHI inquiry.

Agreed: The ToA agreed to ask Departments to provide further clarity on the terminology used in MORs.

Agreed: The ToA agreed to seek further clarity from DoF colleagues in respect of their response to recommendations 4 and 9 of the Review of the Northern Ireland Budget Process.

The Chairperson thanked officials for their attendance.

Officials left the meeting at 3.49 pm.

The meeting moved into closed session at 3.50 pm.

10.   Briefing from NIAO on the Draft Excess Votes Report 2022-23

The following officials from the Northern Ireland Audit Office joined the meeting at 3.50 pm:

Ms Dorinnia Carville, Comptroller and Auditor General, Northern Ireland Audit Office;

Mr Tomas Wilkinson, Director, Northern Ireland Audit Office;

Mr Brian O’Neill, Director, Northern Ireland Audit Office;

Members received a briefing from the NIAO on Excess Votes (Northern Ireland) 2022-2023 and late account/corrections from prior years.

Agreed: Members agreed the draft Report on Excess Votes Report (Northern Ireland) 2022-2023 and late account/corrections from prior years.

Agreed: Members agreed that a copy of the Excess Votes Report 2022-23 (Northern Ireland) be forwarded to the Finance Committee and ToA to enable the Assembly to regularise the excesses incurred by Departments.

Agreed: Members agreed that the Excess Votes Report 2022-23, be laid in the Assembly Business Office. A statement of Excess can then be presented to the Assembly and voted into the Budget Act.

The Chairperson thanked officials for their attendance today.

Officials left the meeting at 4.04 pm.

The meeting moved into public session at 4.04 pm.

11.   Forward Work Programme

The Committee was briefed on the draft Forward Work programme.

Agreed: The Committee agreed its draft Forward Work programme.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to share the draft Forward Work programme with other Committees.

12.   Any Other Business

None.

13.   Date, Time and Place of the next meeting

The Chairperson thanked officials for their attendance and advised members that the next meeting is scheduled for Thursday 11^th April, at 2.00 pm in Room 21, Parliament Buildings.

The meeting was adjourned at 4.08 pm.

Daniel McCrossan MLA

Chairperson, Public Accounts Committee

21 March 2024