TWENTY SIXTH MEETING OF THE HIGHER AND FURTHER EDUCATION, TRAINING AND EMPLOYMENT COMMITTEE AT 2.00 PM IN ROOM 152, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS ON TUESDAY 3 OCTOBER 2000
PRESENT: Dr E Birnie (Chairman)
Mr M Carrick (Deputy Chairman)
Mr R Beggs
Mr J Byrne
Mrs J Carson
Mr J Dallat
Mr W Hay
Mr J Kelly
Mrs M McWilliams
Mrs M Nelis
IN ATTENDANCE: Mrs E Sung, Ms A Colville, Mr C Jones, Mrs C McGrattan, and Professor Osborne (Adviser).
1. Apologies (Closed Session)
Roger Hutchinson.
2. Draft Minutes of Meeting on 26 September 2000
Noted.
It was debated whether the sentence in Section 3.1 (Paragraph 4) reading "Majority agreed that unanimous consensus had been reached previously, on the broad principles on which the Student Finance Report would be based," adequately reflected deliberations to date.
There was some feeling that the record did not reflect that unanimous agreement on broad principles, including on the motion that the Committee strongly support the Cubie model adapted to Northern Ireland circumstances, had been obtained by vote during the process. Nor did it show that most Members were only aware of any dissension towards the end deliberations. Nor did the minutes record what specific concerns particular parties had raised during discussions.
The Clerk advised that, save in exceptional circumstances, a full, official record of Committee proceedings was only available for eg oral evidence given to Committees, to be published as part of an enquiry. The normal practice was for Committee staff to take informative, accurate written notes during meetings, but these could not be expected to form a complete record.
Agreed.
The minutes were an accurate record of the meeting on 26 September, in that the majority of Members at that meeting believed that unanimous consensus had been reached previously on broad principles. However no consensus had yet been reached on any report.
Agreed. Proposed: John Dallat. Seconded: Monica McWilliams.
3. Matters Arising
3.1 Open Meetings
Noted.
An article in the Belfast Telegraph (Monday 2 October) confirmed that the HFETE Committee had the best record to date, among the statutory committees, regarding meetings conducted in open session.
3.2New Deal
Agreed.
Witnesses giving oral evidence will be issued with copies of the Hansard transcript of their evidence session.
As agreed at the meeting on 26 September, the Chairman will write to the Minister expressing the Committee's differing views on benefit sanctions for the over-25s. The Committee requested that he should also enquire why these might be imposed on over-25s, who are generally less flexible due to family commitments, and whether these sanctions were being considered in Great Britain.
Clerk to write to the Speaker's Office to query changes to timings, to determine whether Members can be informed in advance of the amount of time to be given for individual contributions during a debate, and to express Committee members' concerns that there had been no opportunity for questions on what amounted to a lengthy Ministerial statement.
The Business Office needs to keep abreast of any major enquiries being undertaken by the Committee. The Clerk will ensure that the Clerk of Business is so informed.
4. Student Finance (Open Session)
Prior to further discussion on the draft report on Student Finance, the Chairman stated that he had talked privately to individual Members on the procedures for finalising the report. He believed that the Committee's position would be strengthened by maintaining unanimity, and that breaking unanimity could affect not only this Committee in the long run, but may weaken the position of Statutory Committees in general.
Members expressed their views on the potential effect of a minority report. There was general agreement that the Committee had a general purpose in trying to get the best deal for students. The potential for agreement was further explored, and the Chairman then laid down options for the way forward:
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Each paragraph of the latest draft could be examined, to determine whether there was majority support for the views expressed therein. Any disagreement would be recorded in the minutes and the minutes of the meeting, and any opposing views, attached as an Annex. The main report could refer to this Annex or, alternatively, each paragraph which had not been agreed, could be footnoted with references to opposing views.
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Defer discussion for a time and return to determine whether there was any way of coming together.
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The Committee could issue a report to the Minister presenting the various options examined, but which would not advocate a Committee view on the preferred option.
Agreed.
It was important to submit a report as soon as possible, to seek additional funds for Student Finance. The Committee would revisit the issue on Thursday 5 October. In preparation for this meeting, Committee staff would identify areas of consensus (considered generally to be widening access, increasing places and the removal of up-front fees), for initial examination and agreement. Areas of potential disagreement, most importantly in the area of deferred contributions, would also be identified for further discussion.
This would necessitate additional work by Committee staff, which was regrettable given the staffing problems. To facilitate this process, Members were to identify to Committee staff in advance, any detail in the current draft report with which they did not agree.
5. Any Other Business
5.1 Date of Next Meeting
Thursday 5 October at 2:00pm. Part of the meeting would include a further examination of the draft paper on priority bids. which would need to be in closed session as the information supplied was still confidential.
Meeting concluded at 4:10 pm.
Note:
Exceptionally, an official record of this session has also been prepared, in view of the potential for agreeing/finalising an approach to the preparation of a Committee Report on Student Finance.
Esmond Birnie
ESMOND BIRNIE
Chairman
12 October 2000
