Report on an Independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

Appendix 1 - Minutes of Proceedings (extracts)

9 SEPTEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Seán Lynch MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by teleconferencing:

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Apologies:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA

In Attendance:

Mr Keith McBride (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced at 12.33pm in public session, Chaired by Mr Paul Frew, Deputy Chairperson

12. Any Other Business

Fiscal Council

Agreed: To receive an update from the Department on the establishment of a Fiscal Council.

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16 SEPTEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by teleconferencing:

Ms Seán Lynch MLA
Mr Colin Pigeon (RaISe Researcher) (for Agenda Item 8 only)

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Ms Claire McCanny (Senior Assistant Bill Clerk) (for Agenda Item 1 only)

The meeting commenced at 12.33pm in closed session

5. Oral Evidence: Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on the Budget Process Departmental Evidence Session

The official joined the meeting at 12.55pm

  • Mr Jeff McGuinness, Head of Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance

Jim Allister left the meeting at 13.02pm

Issues discussed included: draft Information Sharing Protocol; The relationship between the RHI recommendations, the Fiscal Council and the MoU; involving Departments to improve the budget process; the need for meaningful engagement in the financial process; the need for flexibility in any MoU.

Agreed: To ask the Department for the Terms of Reference of the Fiscal Council.

Agreed: To commission research on the role and responsibilities of bodies in other UK legislatures which have the similar function of a Fiscal Council.

The official left the meeting at 13.53pm

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23 SEPTEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Seán Lynch MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Ms Claire McCanny (Senior Assistant Bill Clerk) (for Agenda Item 5 only)

The meeting commenced at 12.31pm in open session

3. Matters Arising

The Committee noted the Department's response to the establishment of a Fiscal Council and Terms of Reference

4. Oral Evidence: Public Sector Reform – Public Sector Reform Division, Department of Finance

Official joined the meeting at 12.35pm

  • Bill Pauley, Director
  • Emer Morelli, Head of Public Sector Reform Division (PSRD)

Joining the meeting through teleconferencing:

  • Helen Toner, Head of Business Consultancy Services

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

Paul Frew joined the meeting at 13.06pm

Issues discussed included: OECD implementation and the need to achieve the final delivery; support for major and minor transformative programmes including pay policy, fiscal reform and the change to European directives; the growth of iLabs and the numerous recommendation implemented; COVID-19 and the impact of working from home/hubs through gathering relevant data and including wellbeing, the review of Arms-Length-Bodies for efficiency and managing a cultural shift.

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21 OCTOBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced at 14.01pm in public session

4. The impact of the Chancellor's decision to cancel the UK Budget on the Assembly Budget for 2021-22: Minister of Finance

The Minister and official joined the meeting at 14.07pm

  • Mr Conor Murphy MLA, Minister of Finance.
  • Ms Joanne McBurney, Budget Director, Department of Finance.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

Issues discussed included: Comprehensive Spending Review and one-year budget; expected timeline for the UK Budget of late November, consultation and agreement on the Northern Ireland Budget 2021-2022; Treasury discussions on the flexibility of transferring capital to resource; the impact of Brexit including, the Northern Ireland Protocol and the Internal Market Bill; October Monitoring Round; State Aid; funding business and individuals not in mainstream funding programmes; SIB support to department's to manage loans from Financial Transaction Capital projects; the need for greater budget transparency; procedures for granting expenditure under sole authority of a Budget Act; and the development of the Procurement Board and Fiscal Council.

Agreed: To provide the Committee with a response on a range of issues.

The Minister and official left the meeting at 15.34pm

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4 NOVEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Ms Eileen Regan (Senior Researcher, RaISe) for (Agenda Item 4)

The meeting commenced at 14.03pm in public session

5. Oral Evidence: Review of Financial Process, Department of Finance

Officials joined the meeting at 15.52pm

  • Mr Jeff McGuinness, Head of Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance
  • Ms Pamela Galloway, Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance

This oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

Issues discussed included: Phase I & II of the project review of the financial process; the timescale of the implementation extended to 2020/23; NDPB to be included in easily reconcilable future financial documents; the project team includes departments, the Audit Office and internal audit office; future dry run schedule for Estimates and Accounts from 2020-2023; addressing misalignments; engaging with Committees; understanding how best to present information; consolidation in a work plan which impacts on a Fiscal Council and other concepts.

Agreed: The Department to provide information on 'lessons learned' arising from the workshop following the dry run Estimates 2018/19.

Agreed: The Department to provide sight of the proposed amendment to the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 2001.

Agreed: The Department to provide a copy of the revised templates for Estimates and Accounts.

Agreed: The Department to provide a copy of the proposed amendments to the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 2001.

Agreed: To ask the Department to clarify if the Advisory Board referred to Clause 20 of the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 20201 was established and if ongoing, its relationship, if any to the establishment of a Fiscal Council

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11 NOVEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Mr Colin Pidgeon (Researcher, RaISe) through teleconferencing for (Agenda Item 6)

The meeting commenced at 14:02 in public session

6. RaISe Oral Presentation - Presentation Fiscal Council Research Paper

The Researcher joined the meeting at 14:51 by teleconferencing

  • Mr Colin Pidgeon, Researcher, RaISe.

The Committee considered a presentation by Mr Pidgeon on the Roles and Responsibilities of Independent Fiscal Institutions: UK and Ireland.

Jim Wells left the meeting at 15:38

The Researcher left the meeting at 15:41

Agreed: To forward a RaISe research paper Roles and Remits of Independent Fiscal Institutions: United Kingdom and Ireland to the Department for information and to ask for a detailed response on the scrutiny points raised in the research.

Agreed: To write to the Chairpersons of the equivalent committees in Scotland and Wales seeking their views on the adequacy of the sub-contracting of the Welsh OBR and the Scottish Fiscal Commission.

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2 DECEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Apologies:

Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA

In Attendance:

Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Mr Colin Pigeon (Researcher, RaISe - for agenda item 6 only)
Mr Chris Rothwell (Researcher, RaISe - for agenda item 6 only)

The meeting commenced at 14:03 in public session

10. Correspondence

viii. The Committee noted the Departmental response regarding Role and Remit of Independent Fiscal Institutions.

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20 JANUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Video-conference:

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Apologies:

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Mr Dan Hull (Senior Researcher, RaISe) - Agenda Item 6 only
The meeting commenced at 2:08pm in public session.

13. Correspondence

13.6 The Committee considered correspondence from the Welsh Parliament Finance Committee regarding the role and remits of independent Fiscal Institutions.

The Chairperson recorded his concerns in respect of the absence of detail on the establishment of the Fiscal Council and the detrimental impact this would have on scrutiny of the Draft Budget given the uncertainty regarding the relatively high level of unallocated funding.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the Welsh Parliament Finance Committee's response to RaISe for information.

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27 JANUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced at 2:01pm in public session.

6. Oral Evidence Session – Department of Finance - Outcome of the January Monitoring Round

The following officials joined the meeting at 2:06pm.

  • Jeff McGuinness – Head of Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance; and
  • Pamela Galloway, Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance.

The oral evidence session was recorded by Hansard.

The Committee noted a response from the Minister of Finance on its budget queries and a tabled item relating to the ring-fencing of Covid allocations.

The Committee noted that the January Monitoring Round was one of approximately 10 allocations made during the 2020-21 financial year and that in excess of £340m of resource remained unallocated.

Members highlighted concerns regarding the pressure on departments to develop novel spending approaches in the remaining months of the present financial year and to develop new schemes which may permit Arm's Length Bodies (ALBs) to carry over large sums into the 2021-22 financial year. Members indicated disquiet at the continuing absence of a Fiscal Council in order to provide oversight of these differing arrangements.

While recognising the importance of targeted and necessary expenditure for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland in meeting societal need and achieving medium term policy objectives, the Chairperson called for caution and enhanced accountability for all novel schemes or new special purpose financial disbursement vehicles in order to ensure value for money.

Mr Wells joined the meeting at 2:33pm.

Mr O'Toole joined the meeting at 2:41pm.

9. Correspondence

9.3 The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Finance on the Review of the Financial Process and the 2020-21 Spring Supplementary Estimates (SSE) 'dry run' process.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to Department of Finance to request that,- further to a previous undertaking – Part III Note G of the template should be amended in order to ensure explanations were provided when specific legislation did not provide authority for expenditure and instead authority was required from the Budget Act. The Committee also agreed to seek an update on the SSE 'dry run' process when complete and the associated booklet at its next iteration.

Agreed: The Committee also agreed to write to the Minister to seek the likely timescale for the establishment of the Fiscal Council and indicating Members' concerns in respect of the pressure on departments to develop novel spending approaches in the remaining months of the present financial year and to adopt new schemes to permit ALBs to carry over large sums into 2021-22, without the oversight of the Fiscal Council.

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10 FEBRUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
The meeting commenced at 2:01pm in public session.

6. Oral Evidence: Ulster University Economic Policy Centre (UUEPC) - 2021-22 Draft Budget

Witnesses joined the meeting at 2:15pm by video-conference.

  • Gareth Hetherington – Director, UUEPC; and
  • Richard Johnston – Deputy Director, UUEPC.

The oral evidence session was recorded by Hansard.

The Committee noted a written submission from the UUEPC on the draft Budget 2021-22 and tabled correspondence from the Minister of Finance relating to the establishment of the Fiscal Council.

Mr Allister left the meeting at 3:56pm.

Mr Catney left the meeting at 4:27pm.

Mr Wells left the meeting at 4:34pm.

15. Correspondence

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Finance to request the Committee's participation in: the development of the Terms of Reference (ToR); the determination of the membership; and the decision as to whether (and the extent to which) the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland will be established in legislation. It was further agreed that a draft letter be circulated to Members for approval prior to issue.

 

17 FEBRUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced at 2:01pm in public session.

1. Apologies

There were no apologies.

The Committee noted that notice had been received from Jemma Dolan MLA to delegate authority to Maolíosa McHugh MLA and from Matthew O'Toole MLA to delegate authority to Pat Catney MLA to vote as required under Temporary Standing Order 115(6) on any issue in the event of them not being present for all or part of the proceedings.

2. Chairperson's Business

2.1 Informal Meeting

The Chairperson advised Members that the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson had met informally with the Minister of Finance on 16 February 2021 regarding the establishment of the Fiscal Council and the Fiscal Commission. Members noted that the Fiscal Council may be established shortly with interim Terms of Reference and that the Committee's views will be sought as to their revision and in respect of the future legislative underpinning of the Fiscal Council. Members also noted that the Fiscal Commission when established will report before the next Assembly election.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to give further consideration to the Fiscal Council and Fiscal Commission once, as anticipated, a statement is made by the Minister of Finance.

Mr McHugh joined the meeting at 2:02pm.

Mr Frew joined the meeting at 2:14pm.

Mr O'Toole joined the meeting at 2:50pm.

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24 FEBRUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Jim Allister MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Dr Rachel Keyes (Research Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 6 only
Mr Colin Pidgeon (Research Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 6 only
Mr Chris Rothwell (Researcher Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 6 only
The meeting commenced in open session at 2:03pm.

11. Forward Work Programme

The Committee considered the draft Forward Work Programme.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to seek oral briefings from the Department on its Business Plan; and from stakeholders on: business rates reform, fiscal governance matters and the fiscal balance.

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3 MARCH 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Mr Colin Pidgeon (Research Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 6 only
Mr Aidan Stennett (Researcher Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 7 only

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:02pm with the Deputy Chairperson assuming the role of acting Chairperson.

1. Apologies

Apologies were as indicated above.

The Committee noted that notice had been received from Jemma Dolan MLA to delegate authority to Maolíosa McHugh MLA to vote on her behalf under Temporary Standing Order 115(6) on any issue in the event of her not being present for all or part of the proceedings.

No other notices were received from Members to delegate their vote to another Member.

Dr Aiken reassumed the role of Chairperson at 2:13pm.

Ms Dolan left the meeting at 3:25pm.

10. Correspondence

10.11 The Committee noted an update on the establishment of the Fiscal Council and Fiscal Commission from the Minister of Finance.

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24 MARCH 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)
Ms Shauna Mageean (EU Affairs Manager) (Agenda Item 7 only)
Dr Dan Hull (Senior Research Officer, RaISe) (Agenda Item 8 only)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm.

3. Chairperson's Business

3.1 Ministerial Statements

The Committee noted that the Deputy Chairperson had met informally with the Minister in relation to an oral statement on business support measures on 15 March 2021.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that it was content for the Chairperson to meet informally with the chairperson of the Fiscal Commission on 30 March 2021.

Mr Wells joined the meeting at 2:01pm.

16. Correspondence

16.20 The Committee noted correspondence from a member of the public in respect of the role of the Fiscal Council in reviewing section 75 equality screening within the university sector in Northern Ireland.

17. Forward Work Programme

The Committee considered the draft Forward Work Programme.

Mr O'Toole indicated the importance of a consistent approach when giving consideration to matters relating to the Fiscal Council.

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14 APRIL 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm

3. Chairperson's Business

3.2 Fiscal Commission

The Chairperson updated the Committee on his agreed informal meeting with the Chairperson of the Fiscal Commission, on 30 March 2021. The Chairperson informed Members that it is anticipated that the Commission may engage formally with the Committee within the next few months and that the Commission's report is expected to be produced in February 2022.

Mr Maolíosa McHugh joined the meeting at 2.05pm.

Mr Matthew O'Toole joined the meeting at 2.29pm.

Mr Jim Allister left the meeting at 4.21pm.

Mr Paul Frew left the meeting at 4:59pm.

Mr Matthew O'Toole left the meeting at 5.03pm.

18. Correspondence

18.8 The Committee noted correspondence from the Committee for the Economy regarding the establishment of the Fiscal Council and Fiscal Commission.

18.9 The Committee noted correspondence from the Department of Finance regarding the establishment of the Fiscal Council and Fiscal Commission.

Mr Matthew O'Toole rejoined the meeting at 5.17pm.

19. Forward Work Programme

The Committee considered the draft Forward Work Programme.

Mr Philip McGuigan left the meeting at 5.30pm.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the US Consul General with a view to obtaining evidence on budget scrutiny and the possible role of the Fiscal Council from the Congressional Budget Office.

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28 APRIL 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA

Apologies: None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:01pm.

3. Chairperson's Business

3.3 Fiscal Council

The Chairperson suggested that the Committee should schedule a short closed session for next week's meeting in order to allow for consideration of its approach to evidence-taking and further engagement in respect of the development of an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to hold a closed session at next week's meeting, to enable discussion around its plans for further evidence taking and engagement, in respect of the development of an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.03pm.

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5 MAY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Jim Allister MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm.

7. Oral Evidence: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) – A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witness joined the meeting at 2:02pm.

Scott Cameron, Policy Analyst, OECD

Mr Jim Allister joined the meeting at 2.03pm

The Chairperson declared an interest as leader of the Ulster Unionist Party as that party has, in its current manifesto, indicated its support for an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The Committee noted: a written submission from OECD; the 2019 OECD review of the Scottish Fiscal Commission; and a 2020 OECD briefing note 'Access to information for Independent Fiscal Institutions (IFIs)'.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witness for his evidence.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to OECD seeking sight of examples of monthly monitoring statements and reports.

8. Oral Evidence: Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) – A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witness joined the meeting at 2:40pm.

David Philips, Associate Director, IFS

Mr Matthew O'Toole joined the meeting at 2.41pm

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.48pm

The Committee noted: an excerpt from the IFS paper 'The New Fiscal Framework: An Assessment' that includes a discussion on the role of the Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR); and the IFS submission, from 2019, to the Treasury Committee's Inquiry on 'The impact of business rates on business'.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witness for his evidence.

14. Forward Work Programme

14.1 Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

Agreed: The Committee agreed to take evidence as planned, engage with the Fiscal Council in June; and seek to agree and publish its findings in respect of an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland at that time.

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12 MAY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:01pm.

6. Oral Evidence: Scottish Fiscal Commission (SFC) - Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witnesses joined the meeting at 2:03pm.

Dame Susan Rice, Chairperson, SFC;
John Ireland, Chief Executive, SFC; and
Claire Murdoch, Head of Social Security and Public Funding, SFC.

The Committee noted: a written submission from SFC; the 2021 SFC forecast report; and the 2020 SFC data needs statement.

Mr Matthew O'Toole joined the meeting at 2.04pm

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.17pm

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to SFC suggesting continued engagement as the Committee develops its understanding of issues relating to the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland. The Committee also agreed to seek further information on SFC's operating costs.

7. Oral Evidence: Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action (NICVA) and Ulster University (UU) – Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witnesses joined the meeting at 3.03pm.

Seamus McAleavey, Chief Executive, NICVA; and
Dr Esmond Birnie, Senior Economist, UU.

The Committee noted: covering information from NICVA; an explanatory note from Dr Birnie; and a copy of the 2013 PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) report 'Fiscal powers: A review of the fiscal powers of the Northern Ireland Assembly'.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

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19 MAY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm.

6. Oral Evidence: Irish Fiscal Advisory Council - Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witnesses joined the meeting at 2:04pm.

Sebastian Barnes, Chairperson, Irish Fiscal Advisory Council; and
Dr Eddie Casey, Chief Economist and Head of Secretariat, Irish Fiscal Advisory Council.

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.06pm

The Committee noted: a written submission by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and other related published papers.

Mr Matthew O'Toole joined the meeting at 2.24pm

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council suggesting continued engagement as the Committee develops its understanding of issues relating to the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

Ms Jemma Dolan left the meeting at 3.00pm

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to all statutory committees seeking their views on the options for the development of a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

8. Oral Evidence: Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) of the Houses of the Oireachtas – Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witnesses joined the meeting at 3.23pm.

Annette Connolly, Director, PBO, Houses of the Oireachtas; and

Barry Comerford, Deputy Director, PBO, Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Committee noted: a written submission by the PBO and other related published papers.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

Mr Allister left the meeting at 3:30pm

Ms Jemma Dolan rejoined the meeting at 3.40pm

Mr Jim Wells joined the meeting at 3.41pm

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write and thank PBO suggesting continued engagement as the Committee develops its understanding of issues relating to the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland. The Committee also agreed to seek sight of a recent Committee on Budgetary Oversight report including recommendations on budget scrutiny at the Oireachtas.

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2 JUNE 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Neal Flanagan (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:02pm.

3. Chairperson's Business

3.2 Legislative Programme

The Chairperson reminded Members that the Committee had previously sought and received clarity from the Department regarding its plans for primary legislation in the remainder of the mandate. The Chairperson noted that the Financial Reporting Bill has been introduced; a Legislative Consent Motion is expected to be laid in September; and AQWs refer to an Arm's Length Body Bill which is with the Executive for consideration.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department to seek clarity on the rest of the legislative programme including the Social Value in Procurement Bill; the independent Fiscal Council Bill; and subordinate legislation on fire safety building regulations.

7. Oral Evidence: Department of Finance (DoF) – Budget (No.2) Bill and Main Estimates

The following officials joined the meeting at 2:38pm.

Joanne McBurney, Budget Director, DoF;
Barry Armstrong, Head of Supply Division, DoF; and
Roisin Kelly, Supply Officer, DoF.

The Committee noted a Departmental briefing paper on the Main Estimates and the Budget Bill and responses from other statutory committees on the 2021-22 Budget.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the officials for their evidence.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Chairperson should write to the Minister seeking an update on the progress of the Fiscal Council legislation; the work of the Fiscal Council in analysing the Executive's budget; and the work of the Fiscal Commission.

10. Correspondence

10.5 The Committee noted correspondence from Anne Connolly, Director of the Oireachtas Parliamentary Budget Office, offering future assistance to the Committee in respect of the development of a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

10.9 The Committee considered a query from the Committee for Infrastructure following a CBI briefing and asking for the timescale for the establishment of the Fiscal Council and whether it will have powers to investigate or resolve planning issues.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Committee for Infrastructure informing it that an interim Fiscal Council has been established but it is unlikely that it will address planning issues in any regard.

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9 JUNE 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA

Apologies:

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm.

6. Oral Evidence: Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) — A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The following witness joined the meeting at 2:04pm.

Richard Hughes, Chairperson, OBR.

Mr Maolíosa McHugh joined the meeting at 2.05pm

The Committee noted: extracts from the Budget Responsibility and National Audit Act 2011; copies of the OBR charter and HM Treasury framework document; an extract from the 2020 OECD review of the OBR; copies of the OBR Memorandum of Understanding, Terms of Reference and financial framework document with the Welsh Government; and a copy of the 2020 OBR report on Welsh Government tax revenues.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.17pm

The Chairperson thanked the witness for his evidence.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the OBR suggesting continued engagement as the Committee develops its understanding of issues relating to the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

7. Oral Evidence: Northern Ireland Fiscal Council (NIFC) – A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The following witness joined the meeting at 3:04pm.

Sir Robert Chote, Chairperson, NIFC;
Professor Alan Barrett, Council Member, NIFC;
Maureen O'Reilly, Council Member, NIFC; and
Dr Esmond Birnie, Council Member, NIFC.

The Committee noted a NIFC briefing paper.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

Dr Esmond Birnie left the meeting at 3.46pm.

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

The Committee went into closed session at 4.14pm in order to consider written and oral submissions on a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland and to consider some other business.

8. Committee Deliberations: A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The Committee noted correspondence from the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs; the Committee for Infrastructure; the Committee for Communities; and the Committee for the Economy.

The Committee also noted a tabled report on a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland commissioned by the Department and produced by the Fraser of Allander Institute of the University of Strathclyde.

Mr Matthew O'Toole left the meeting at 4:26pm
Agreed: The Committee informally indicated its views on a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland and agreed that the Clerk should draft a related report.

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23 June 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Apologies:

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:03pm.

Proceedings went into closed session at 5.10pm in order to consider the Committee report on a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

9. Committee Deliberations: A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The Committee noted tabled correspondence from the Minister, the Committee for the Economy, and the Scottish Fiscal Commission.

The Committee considered its draft report on the Fiscal Council.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that Members would write to the Clerk with suggested amendments to the draft report before close of play on 24 June 2021 and the Committee would then consider the revised report at its next meeting.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Clerk would informally share the draft report with the Northern Ireland Audit Office under the strict understanding that the report is in draft form only.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council and the Northern Ireland Fiscal Commission seeking an update on their work programmes.

The Committee returned to open session at 5:16pm

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29 JUNE 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present by Video-conference:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Apologies:

None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in closed session at 12:04pm.

3. Committee Draft Report on an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The Committee considered a second draft of the Committee Report entitled: 'An Independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland'.

Mr Jim Wells joined the meeting at 12:06pm
Mr Pat Catney joined the meeting at 12:10pm

Agreed: The Committee agreed amendments to its draft Report relating to: the Public Appointments process; the development of a macro-economic forecasting facility; and the reference to the balancing of budgets by the Executive.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to finalise the Report at the meeting on 7 July 2021, as amended.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the finalised Report would be shared with the Minister and the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council and then be published immediately thereafter.

At the Chairperson's suggestion, the Committee recorded its thanks and appreciation to the Committee Clerk and the Committee Office team.

Mr Matthew O'Toole left the meeting at 12:28pm

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7 JULY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present:

Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Jim Wells MLA

Present by Video-conference:

Mr Jim Allister MLA
Mr Pat Catney MLA
Ms Jemma Dolan MLA
Mr Philip McGuigan MLA
Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA
Mr Matthew O'Toole MLA

Apologies: None

In Attendance:

Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)
Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:01pm.

6. Committee Report: An Independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

Members noted a response from the interim Northern Ireland Fiscal Council on its work programme indicating that it is developing a Memorandum of Understanding with the Department and that a report on the budget for 2021-22 will be produced during the budget consultation period.

The Committee considered its draft report on an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland, as amended following the meeting on 29 June 2021.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Chairperson should approve the relevant excerpt from the minutes of 7 July 2021 and this should be added to the appendices of the report along with the relevant excerpt from the minutes of 29 June 2021 and the latest correspondence from the interim Northern Ireland Fiscal Council.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to make further clarifying modifications to recommendations in respect of the Public Appointments process and confirmatory committee hearings.

The Committee discussed but did not agree amendments relating to the development of Memoranda of Understanding between the Fiscal Council and the Department for Work and Pensions within the draft report.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the report as amended and was content that this was the full and final version of the report by the Committee and that it be published as such.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to share the report with the Minister and the interim Northern Ireland Fiscal Council and to provide a link to the report to witnesses who provided evidence and to statutory committees and the Audit Committee and the Public Accounts Committee and the Northern Ireland Audit Office.

The Chairperson recorded his thanks to the Clerk and the committee staff.

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9 SEPTEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Seán Lynch MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by teleconferencing:

 

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

 

Apologies:                 Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

                                    Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

 

 

In Attendance:          Mr Keith McBride (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced at 12.33pm in public session, Chaired by Mr Paul Frew, Deputy Chairperson

 

12. Any Other Business

 

Fiscal Council

Agreed: To receive an update from the Department on the establishment of a Fiscal Council.

 

 

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16 SEPTEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by teleconferencing:

 

Ms Seán Lynch MLA

Mr Colin Pigeon (RaISe Researcher) (for Agenda Item 8 only)

 

Apologies:                

 

 

In Attendance:          Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Ms Claire McCanny (Senior Assistant Bill Clerk) (for Agenda Item 1 only)

 

The meeting commenced at 12.33pm in closed session

5. Oral Evidence: Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on the Budget Process Departmental Evidence Session

The official joined the meeting at 12.55pm

·         Mr Jeff McGuinness, Head of Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance

Jim Allister left the meeting at 13.02pm

Issues discussed included: draft Information Sharing Protocol; The relationship between the RHI recommendations, the Fiscal Council and the MoU; involving Departments to improve the budget process; the need for meaningful engagement in the financial process; the need for flexibility in any MoU.

Agreed:          To ask the Department for the Terms of Reference of the Fiscal Council.

Agreed:          To commission research on the role and responsibilities of bodies in other UK legislatures which have the similar function of a Fiscal Council.

The official left the meeting at 13.53pm

 

 

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23 SEPTEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Seán Lynch MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

 

Apologies:                

 

 

In Attendance:          Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Ms Claire McCanny (Senior Assistant Bill Clerk) (for Agenda Item 5 only)

 

 

The meeting commenced at 12.31pm in open session

3. Matters Arising

The Committee noted the Department’s response to the establishment of a Fiscal Council and Terms of Reference

 

4. Oral Evidence: Public Sector Reform – Public Sector Reform Division, Department of Finance

Official joined the meeting at 12.35pm

·                     Bill Pauley, Director

·                     Emer Morelli, Head of Public Sector Reform Division (PSRD)

Joining the meeting through teleconferencing:

·                     Helen Toner, Head of Business Consultancy Services

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

Paul Frew joined the meeting at 13.06pm

Issues discussed included: OECD implementation and the need to achieve the final delivery; support for major and minor transformative programmes including pay policy, fiscal reform and the change to European directives; the growth of iLabs and the numerous recommendation implemented; COVID-19 and the impact of working from home/hubs through gathering relevant data and including wellbeing, the review of Arms-Length-Bodies for efficiency and managing a cultural shift.

 

 

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21 OCTOBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

 

Apologies:                

 

 

In Attendance:          Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

 

The meeting commenced at 14.01pm in public session

 

4.    The impact of the Chancellor’s decision to cancel the UK Budget on the Assembly Budget for 2021-22: Minister of Finance

 

The Minister and official joined the meeting at 14.07pm

·                     Mr Conor Murphy MLA, Minister of Finance.

·                     Ms Joanne McBurney, Budget Director, Department of Finance.

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

 

Issues discussed included: Comprehensive Spending Review and one-year budget; expected timeline for the UK Budget of late November, consultation and agreement on the Northern Ireland Budget 2021-2022; Treasury discussions on the flexibility of transferring capital to resource; the impact of Brexit including, the Northern Ireland Protocol and the Internal Market Bill; October Monitoring Round; State Aid; funding business and individuals not in mainstream funding programmes; SIB support to department’s to manage loans from Financial Transaction Capital projects; the need for greater budget transparency; procedures for granting expenditure under sole authority of a Budget Act; and the development of the Procurement Board and Fiscal Council.

Agreed:          To provide the Committee with a response on a range of issues.

The Minister and official left the meeting at 15.34pm

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4 NOVEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

 

Apologies:                

 

 

In Attendance:          Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Ms Eileen Regan (Senior Researcher, RaISe) for (Agenda Item 4)

 

The meeting commenced at 14.03pm in public session

 

5.    Oral Evidence: Review of Financial Process, Department of Finance

Officials joined the meeting at 15.52pm

·         Mr Jeff McGuinness, Head of Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance

·         Ms Pamela Galloway, Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance

 

This oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

Issues discussed included: Phase I & II of the project review of the financial process; the timescale of the implementation extended to 2020/23; NDPB to be included in easily reconcilable future financial documents; the project team includes departments, the Audit Office and internal audit office; future dry run schedule for Estimates and Accounts from 2020-2023; addressing misalignments; engaging with Committees; understanding how best to present information; consolidation in a work plan which impacts on a Fiscal Council and other concepts.

Agreed:          The Department to provide information on ‘lessons learned’ arising from the workshopfollowing the dry run Estimates 2018/19.

Agreed:          The Department to provide sight of the proposed amendment to the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 2001.

Agreed:          The Department to provide a copy of the revised templates for Estimates and Accounts.

Agreed:          The Department to provide a copy of the proposed amendments to the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 2001.

Agreed:          To ask the Department to clarify if the Advisory Board referred to Clause 20 of the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 20201 was established and if ongoing, its relationship, if any to the establishment of a Fiscal Council   

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11 NOVEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

 

Apologies:                

 

 

In Attendance:          Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Mr Colin Pidgeon (Researcher, RaISe) through teleconferencing for (Agenda Item 6)

 

 

The meeting commenced at 14:02 in public session

 

6.    RaISe Oral Presentation - Presentation Fiscal Council Research Paper

The Researcher joined the meeting at 14:51 by teleconferencing

 

·         Mr Colin Pidgeon, Researcher, RaISe.

The Committee considered a presentation by Mr Pidgeon on the Roles and Responsibilities of Independent Fiscal Institutions: UK and Ireland.

Jim Wells left the meeting at 15:38

The Researcher left the meeting at 15:41

Agreed:                To forward a RaISe research paper Roles and Remits of Independent Fiscal Institutions: United Kingdom and Ireland to the Department for information and to ask for a detailed response on the scrutiny points raised in the research.

Agreed:                To write to the Chairpersons of the equivalent committees in Scotland and Wales seeking their views on the adequacy of the sub-contracting of the Welsh OBR and the Scottish Fiscal Commission.

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2 DECEMBER 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

 

Apologies:                 Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

 

 

In Attendance:          Mr Jim McManus (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Mr Colin Pigeon (Researcher, RaISe - for agenda item 6 only)

Mr Chris Rothwell (Researcher, RaISe - for agenda item 6 only)

The meeting commenced at 14:03 in public session

10.Correspondence

 

viii.         The Committee noted the Departmental response regarding Role and Remit of Independent Fiscal Institutions.

 

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20 JANUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

                                    Mr Paul Frew (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Video-conference:   Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

 

Apologies:                 Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Mr Dan Hull (Senior Researcher, RaISe) - Agenda Item 6 only

The meeting commenced at 2:08pm in public session.

 

13.Correspondence

13.6    The Committee considered correspondence from the Welsh Parliament Finance Committee regarding the role and remits of independent Fiscal Institutions.

The Chairperson recorded his concerns in respect of the absence of detail on the establishment of the Fiscal Council and the detrimental impact this would have on scrutiny of the Draft Budget given the uncertainty regarding the relatively high level of unallocated funding.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the Welsh Parliament Finance Committee’s response to RaISe for information.

 

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27 JANUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

                                    Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:

                                    Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced at 2:01pm in public session.

6.    Oral Evidence Session – Department of Finance - Outcome of the January Monitoring Round

The following officials joined the meeting at 2:06pm.

·      Jeff McGuinness – Head of Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance; and

·      Pamela Galloway, Central Expenditure Division, Department of Finance.

 

The oral evidence session was recorded by Hansard.

 

The Committee noted a response from the Minister of Finance on its budget queries and a tabled item relating to the ring-fencing of Covid allocations.

 

The Committee noted that the January Monitoring Round was one of approximately 10 allocations made during the 2020-21 financial year and that in excess of £340m of resource remained unallocated.

Members highlighted concerns regarding the pressure on departments to develop novel spending approaches in the remaining months of the present financial year and to develop new schemes which may permit Arm’s Length Bodies (ALBs) to carry over large sums into the 2021-22 financial year.  Members indicated disquiet at the continuing absence of a Fiscal Council in order to provide oversight of these differing arrangements. 

 

While recognising the importance of targeted and necessary expenditure for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland in meeting societal need and achieving medium term policy objectives, the Chairperson called for caution and enhanced accountability for all novel schemes or new special purpose financial disbursement vehicles in order to ensure value for money.

Mr Wells joined the meeting at 2:33pm.

Mr O’Toole joined the meeting at 2:41pm.

 

 

      9. Correspondence

 9.3 The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Finance on the Review of the Financial Process and the 2020-21 Spring Supplementary Estimates (SSE) ‘dry run’ process.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to Department of Finance to request that,- further to a previous undertaking – Part III Note G of the template should be amended in order to ensure explanations were provided when specific legislation did not provide authority for expenditure and instead authority was required from the Budget Act. The Committee also agreed to seek an update on the SSE ‘dry run’ process when complete and the associated booklet at its next iteration.

Agreed: The Committee also agreed to write to the Minister to seek the likely timescale for the establishment of the Fiscal Council and indicating Members’ concerns in respect of the pressure on departments to develop novel spending approaches in the remaining months of the present financial year and to adopt new schemes to permit ALBs to carry over large sums into 2021-22, without the oversight of the Fiscal Council. 

 

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10 FEBRUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

                                    Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

The meeting commenced at 2:01pm in public session.

 

6.    Oral Evidence: Ulster University Economic Policy Centre (UUEPC) - 2021-22 Draft Budget

Witnesses joined the meeting at 2:15pm by video-conference.

·         Gareth Hetherington – Director, UUEPC; and

·         Richard Johnston – Deputy Director, UUEPC.

The oral evidence session was recorded by Hansard.

The Committee noted a written submission from the UUEPC on the draft Budget 2021-22 and tabled correspondence from the Minister of Finance relating to the establishment of the Fiscal Council.

 

Mr Allister left the meeting at 3:56pm.

 

  Mr Catney left the meeting at 4:27pm.

 

 Mr Wells left the meeting at 4:34pm.

 

     15. Correspondence

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Finance to request the Committee’s participation in: the development of the Terms of Reference (ToR); the determination of the membership; and the decision as to whether (and the extent to which) the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland will be established in legislation.  It was further agreed that a draft letter be circulated to Members for approval prior to issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

17 FEBRUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

                                    Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced at 2:01pm in public session.

1.    Apologies

There were no apologies.

The Committee noted that notice had been received from Jemma Dolan MLA to delegate authority to Maolíosa McHugh MLA and from Matthew O’Toole MLA to delegate authority to Pat Catney MLA to vote as required under Temporary Standing Order 115(6) on any issue in the event of them not being present for all or part of the proceedings.

 

2.    Chairperson’s Business

2.1 Informal Meeting

The Chairperson advised Members that the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson had met informally with the Minister of Finance on 16 February 2021 regarding the establishment of the Fiscal Council and the Fiscal Commission. Members noted that the Fiscal Council may be established shortly with interim Terms of Reference and that the Committee’s views will be sought as to their revision and in respect of the future legislative underpinning of the Fiscal Council.  Members also noted that the Fiscal Commission when established will report before the next Assembly election.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to give further consideration to the Fiscal Council and Fiscal Commission once, as anticipated, a statement is made by the Minister of Finance.

 

Mr McHugh joined the meeting at 2:02pm.

 

Mr Frew joined the meeting at 2:14pm.

 

Mr O’Toole joined the meeting at 2:50pm.

 

 

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24 FEBRUARY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Dr Rachel Keyes (Research Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 6 only

Mr Colin Pidgeon (Research Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 6 only

Mr Chris Rothwell (Researcher Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 6 only

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:03pm.

 

11.Forward Work Programme

 

The Committee considered the draft Forward Work Programme.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to seek oral briefings from the Department on its Business Plan; and from stakeholders on: business rates reform, fiscal governance matters and the fiscal balance.

 

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3 MARCH 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Mr Colin Pidgeon (Research Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 6 only

Mr Aidan Stennett (Researcher Officer, RaISe) – agenda item 7 only

 

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:02pm with the Deputy Chairperson assuming the role of acting Chairperson.

 

1.    Apologies

 

Apologies were as indicated above.

The Committee noted that notice had been received from Jemma Dolan MLA to delegate authority to Maolíosa McHugh MLA to vote on her behalf under Temporary Standing Order 115(6) on any issue in the event of her not being present for all or part of the proceedings.

No other notices were received from Members to delegate their vote to another Member.

 

Dr Aiken reassumed the role of Chairperson at 2:13pm.

Ms Dolan left the meeting at 3:25pm.

 

     10. Correspondence

 

10.11 The Committee noted an update on the establishment of the Fiscal Council and Fiscal Commission from the Minister of Finance.

 

 

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24 MARCH 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

Ms Shauna Mageean (EU Affairs Manager) (Agenda Item 7 only)

Dr Dan Hull (Senior Research Officer, RaISe) (Agenda Item 8 only)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm.

 

3. Chairperson’s Business

 

3.1Ministerial Statements

The Committee noted that the Deputy Chairperson had met informally with the Minister in relation to an oral statement on business support measures on 15 March 2021.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that it was content for the Chairperson to meet informally with the chairperson of the Fiscal Commission on 30 March 2021.

Mr Wells joined the meeting at 2:01pm.

 

     16. Correspondence 

16.20    The Committee noted correspondence from a member of the public in respect of the role of the Fiscal Council in reviewing section 75 equality screening within the university sector in Northern Ireland.

 

17. Forward Work Programme

 

The Committee considered the draft Forward Work Programme.

 

Mr O’Toole indicated the importance of a consistent approach when giving consideration to matters relating to the Fiscal Council.

 

 

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14 APRIL 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Phil Pateman (Senior Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Kate McCullough (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm

 

3.    Chairperson’s Business

3.2 Fiscal Commission

The Chairperson updated the Committee on his agreed informal meeting with the Chairperson of the Fiscal Commission, on 30 March 2021. The Chairperson informed Members that it is anticipated that the Commission may engage formally with the Committee within the next few months and that the Commission’s report is expected to be produced in February 2022.

 

Mr Maolíosa McHugh joined the meeting at 2.05pm.

Mr Matthew O’Toole joined the meeting at 2.29pm.

 

Mr Jim Allister left the meeting at 4.21pm.

Mr Paul Frew left the meeting at 4:59pm.

Mr Matthew O’Toole left the meeting at 5.03pm.

18.Correspondence

18.8 The Committee noted correspondence from the Committee for the Economy regarding the establishment of the Fiscal Council and Fiscal Commission.

 

18.9 The Committee noted correspondence from the Department of Finance regarding the establishment of the Fiscal Council and Fiscal Commission.

 

Mr Matthew O’Toole rejoined the meeting at 5.17pm.

19.Forward Work Programme

 

The Committee considered the draft Forward Work Programme.

Mr Philip McGuigan left the meeting at 5.30pm.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the US Consul General with a view to obtaining evidence on budget scrutiny and the possible role of the Fiscal Council from the Congressional Budget Office.

 

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28 APRIL 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:01pm.

 

3.  Chairperson’s Business

3.3Fiscal Council

The Chairperson suggested that the Committee should schedule a short closed session for next week’s meeting in order to allow for consideration of its approach to evidence-taking and further engagement in respect of the development of an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland. 

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to hold a closed session at next week’s meeting, to enable discussion around its plans for further evidence taking and engagement, in respect of the development of an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland. 

 

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.03pm.

 

 

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5 MAY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

 

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

Mr Neil Sedgewick (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm. 

 

7.    Oral Evidence: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) – A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

The witness joined the meeting at 2:02pm.

 

Scott Cameron, Policy Analyst, OECD

 

Mr Jim Allister joined the meeting at 2.03pm

 

The Chairperson declared an interest as leader of the Ulster Unionist Party as that party has, in its current manifesto, indicated its support for an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

The Committee noted: a written submission from OECD; the 2019 OECD review of the Scottish Fiscal Commission; and a 2020 OECD briefing note ‘Access to information for Independent Fiscal Institutions (IFIs)’.

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witness for his evidence.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to OECD seeking sight of examples of monthly monitoring statements and reports.

 

 

8.    Oral Evidence: Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) – A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witness joined the meeting at 2:40pm.

 

David Philips, Associate Director, IFS

 

Mr Matthew O’Toole joined the meeting at 2.41pm

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.48pm

 

The Committee noted: an excerpt from the IFS paper ‘The New Fiscal Framework: An Assessment’ that includes a discussion on the role of the Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR); and the IFS submission, from 2019, to the Treasury Committee’s Inquiry on ‘The impact of business rates on business’.

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

 

The Chairperson thanked the witness for his evidence.

 

 

 

14.  Forward Work Programme

 

14.1 Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to take evidence as planned, engage with the Fiscal Council in June; and seek to agree and publish its findings in respect of an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland at that time.

 

 

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12 MAY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:01pm.

 

6. Oral Evidence: Scottish Fiscal Commission (SFC) - Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

The witnesses joined the meeting at 2:03pm.

 

Dame Susan Rice, Chairperson, SFC;

John Ireland, Chief Executive, SFC; and

Claire Murdoch, Head of Social Security and Public Funding, SFC.

 

The Committee noted: a written submission from SFC; the 2021 SFC forecast report; and the 2020 SFC data needs statement.

 

Mr Matthew O’Toole joined the meeting at 2.04pm

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.17pm

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to SFC suggesting continued engagement as the Committee develops its understanding of issues relating to the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland. The Committee also agreed to seek further information on SFC’s operating costs.

 

 

 

7. Oral Evidence: Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action (NICVA) and Ulster University (UU) – Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

The witnesses joined the meeting at 3.03pm.

 

Seamus McAleavey, Chief Executive, NICVA; and

Dr Esmond Birnie, Senior Economist, UU.

 

The Committee noted: covering information from NICVA; an explanatory note from Dr Birnie; and a copy of the 2013 PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) report ‘Fiscal powers: A review of the fiscal powers of the Northern Ireland Assembly’.

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

 

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

 

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19 MAY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm. 

 

6.    Oral Evidence: Irish Fiscal Advisory Council - Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witnesses joined the meeting at 2:04pm.

 

Sebastian Barnes, Chairperson, Irish Fiscal Advisory Council; and
Dr Eddie Casey, Chief Economist and Head of Secretariat, Irish Fiscal

Advisory Council.

 

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.06pm

 

The Committee noted: a written submission by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and other related published papers.

 

Mr Matthew O’Toole joined the meeting at 2.24pm

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council suggesting continued engagement as the Committee develops its understanding of issues relating to the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

 

Ms Jemma Dolan left the meeting at 3.00pm

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to all statutory committees seeking their views on the options for the development of a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

8.    Oral Evidence: Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) of the Houses of the Oireachtas – Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The witnesses joined the meeting at 3.23pm.

 

Annette Connolly, Director, PBO, Houses of the Oireachtas; and
Barry Comerford, Deputy Director, PBO, Houses  of the Oireachtas.

 

The Committee noted: a written submission by the PBO and other related published papers.

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

 

Mr Allister left the meeting at 3:30pm

Ms Jemma Dolan rejoined the meeting at 3.40pm

Mr Jim Wells joined the meeting at 3.41pm

 

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

 

Agreed:The Committee agreed to write and thank PBO suggesting continued engagement as the Committee develops its understanding of issues relating to the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.   The Committee also agreed to seek sight of a recent Committee on Budgetary Oversight report including recommendations on budget scrutiny at the Oireachtas.

 

 

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2 JUNE 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

Mr Neal Flanagan (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:02pm.

 

3. Chairperson’s Business

 

3.2 Legislative Programme

The Chairperson reminded Members that the Committee had previously sought and received clarity from the Department regarding its plans for primary legislation in the remainder of the mandate.  The Chairperson noted that the Financial Reporting Bill has been introduced; a Legislative Consent Motion is expected to be laid in September; and AQWs refer to an Arm’s Length Body Bill which is with the Executive for consideration.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department to seek clarity on the rest of the legislative programme including the Social Value in Procurement Bill; the independent Fiscal Council Bill; and subordinate legislation on fire safety building regulations.

 

 

7. Oral Evidence: Department of Finance (DoF) – Budget (No.2) Bill and Main Estimates

 

             The following officials joined the meeting at 2:38pm.

 

Joanne McBurney, Budget Director, DoF;

Barry Armstrong, Head of Supply Division, DoF; and

Roisin Kelly, Supply Officer, DoF.

 

The Committee noted a Departmental briefing paper on the Main Estimates and the Budget Bill and responses from other statutory committees on the 2021-22 Budget.

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

 

The Chairperson thanked the officials for their evidence.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Chairperson should write to the Minister seeking an update on the progress of the Fiscal Council legislation; the work of the Fiscal Council in analysing the Executive’s budget; and the work of the Fiscal Commission.

 

 

10. Correspondence

 

10.5 The Committee noted correspondence from Anne Connolly, Director of the Oireachtas Parliamentary Budget Office, offering future assistance to the Committee in respect of the development of a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

 

10.9 The Committee considereda query from the Committee for Infrastructure following a CBI briefing and asking for the timescale for the establishment of the Fiscal Council and whether it will have powers to investigate or resolve planning issues.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreedto write to the Committee for Infrastructure informing it that an interim Fiscal Council has been established but it is unlikely that it will address planning issues in any regard.

 

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9 JUNE 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Jim Wells MLA

           

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Paul Frew MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

 

Apologies:                 Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

                                    Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:00pm.

 

 

6. Oral Evidence: Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) — A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The following witness joined the meeting at 2:04pm.

 

Richard Hughes, Chairperson, OBR.

 

Mr Maolíosa McHugh joined the meeting at 2.05pm

 

The Committee noted: extracts from the Budget Responsibility and National Audit Act 2011; copies of the OBR charter and HM Treasury framework document; an extract from the 2020 OECD review of the OBR; copies of the OBR Memorandum of Understanding, Terms of Reference and financial framework document with the Welsh Government; and a copy of the 2020 OBR report on Welsh Government tax revenues.

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

 

Mr Paul Frew joined the meeting at 2.17pm

 

The Chairperson thanked the witness for his evidence.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the OBR suggesting continued engagement as the Committee develops its understanding of issues relating to the Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland.

 

 

7.    Oral Evidence: Northern Ireland Fiscal Council (NIFC) – A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

The following witness joined the meeting at 3:04pm.

 

Sir Robert Chote, Chairperson, NIFC;
Professor Alan Barrett, Council Member, NIFC;
Maureen O'Reilly, Council Member, NIFC; and
Dr Esmond Birnie, Council Member, NIFC.

           

            The Committee noted a NIFC briefing paper.

 

The oral evidence session was reported by Hansard.

 

Dr Esmond Birnie left the meeting at 3.46pm.

 

The Chairperson thanked the witnesses for their evidence.

 

The Committee went into closed session at 4.14pm in order to consider written and oral submissions on a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland and to consider some other business.

 

8.    Committee Deliberations: A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

The Committee noted correspondence from the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs; the Committee for Infrastructure; the Committee for Communities; and the Committee for the Economy.

 

The Committee also noted a tabled report on a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland commissioned by the Department and produced by the Fraser of Allander Institute of the University of Strathclyde.

 

Mr Matthew O’Toole left the meeting at 4:26pm

Agreed: The Committee informally indicated its views on a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland and agreed that the Clerk should draft a related report.

 

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23 June 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

           

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

 

Apologies:                 Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

In Attendance:                      Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

                                    Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:03pm.

 

Proceedings went into closed session at 5.10pm in order to consider the Committee report on a Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

9.    Committee Deliberations: A Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

The Committee noted tabled correspondence from the Minister, the Committee for the Economy, and the Scottish Fiscal Commission.

The Committee considered its draft report on the Fiscal Council.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that Members would write to the Clerk with suggested amendments to the draft report before close of play on 24 June 2021 and the Committee would then consider the revised report at its next meeting.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Clerk would informally share the draft report with the Northern Ireland Audit Office under the strict understanding that the report is in draft form only.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council and the Northern Ireland Fiscal Commission seeking an update on their work programmes.

The Committee returned to open session at 5:16pm

 

 

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29 JUNE 2020

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

Present by Video-conference:      

 

                                    Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

Mr Jim Wells MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

                                    Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in closed session at 12:04pm.

 

3.    Committee Draft Report on an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

 

The Committee considered a second draft of the Committee Report entitled: ‘An Independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland’.

 

Mr Jim Wells joined the meeting at 12:06pm

Mr Pat Catney joined the meeting at 12:10pm

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed amendments to its draft Report relating to: the Public Appointments process; the development of a macro-economic forecasting facility; and the reference to the balancing of budgets by the Executive.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed to finalise the Report at the meeting on 7 July 2021, as amended.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the finalised Report would be shared with the Minister and the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council and then be published immediately thereafter.

 

            At the Chairperson’s suggestion, the Committee recorded its thanks and appreciation to the Committee Clerk and the Committee Office team.

 

Mr Matthew O’Toole left the meeting at 12:28pm

 

[EXTRACT]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 JULY 2021

Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings, 2.00pm

 

Present:                     Dr Steve Aiken OBE MLA (Chairperson)

Mr Keith Buchanan MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Jim Wells MLA

           

Present by Video-conference:      

Mr Jim Allister MLA

Mr Pat Catney MLA

Ms Jemma Dolan MLA

Mr Philip McGuigan MLA

Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA

Mr Matthew O’Toole MLA

 

Apologies:                 None

 

In Attendance:          Mr Peter McCallion (Assembly Clerk)

                                    Ms Angela McParland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)

Mr Stephen Magee (Clerical Supervisor)

Ms Heather Graham (Clerical Officer)

 

The meeting commenced in open session at 2:01pm.

 

 

6.    Committee Report: An Independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland

Members noted a response from the interim Northern Ireland Fiscal Council on its work programme indicating that it is developing a Memorandum of Understanding with the Department and that a report on the budget for 2021-22 will be produced during the budget consultation period.

The Committee considered its draft report on an independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland, as amended following the meeting on 29 June 2021.

 

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Chairperson should approve the relevant excerpt from the minutes of 7 July 2021 and this should be added to the appendices of the report along with the relevant excerpt from the minutes of 29 June 2021 and the latest correspondence from the interim Northern Ireland Fiscal Council.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to make further clarifying modifications to recommendations in respect of the Public Appointments process and confirmatory committee hearings.

The Committee discussed but did not agree amendments relating to the development of Memoranda of Understanding between the Fiscal Council and the Department for Work and Pensions within the draft report.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the report as amended and was content that this was the full and final version of the report by the Committee and that it be published as such.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to share the report with the Minister and the interim Northern Ireland Fiscal Council and to provide a link to the report to witnesses who provided evidence and to statutory committees and the Audit Committee and the Public Accounts Committee and the Northern Ireland Audit Office.

             The Chairperson recorded his thanks to the Clerk and the committee staff.

 

 

[EXTRACT]

 

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