Minutes of proceedings of the sixth meetingof the Public Accounts Committee held in Room 152, Parliament Buildings on Wednesday 20th September 2000

Present: Mr B Bell (Chairman)
Ms S Ramsey (Deputy Chairman)
Mr M Carrick
Mr S Close
Mr J Dallat
Mr D Hilditch
Ms J Morrice
Mr D O'Connor

In Attendance: Mr M Rickard (Committee Clerk)
Mr J Campbell (Assistant Committee Clerk)
Miss L Tracey

Apologies Ms P Armitage
Mr R Beggs
Mr D McClelland

Prior to commencement of business, the Chairman welcomed Mr. Dowdall, the Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG), and his staff. He then outlined what he considered to be the main objective of the meeting - to be briefed by the C&AG and his staff on the NIAO Report on The Administration of Income Support Benefit (NIA 8 of Session 1999-2000)

Following this introduction, the Chairperson turned to the order of business.

1. Apologies

Apologies were received from Ms P Armitage, Mr R Beggs and Mr D McClelland due to prior engagements.

2. Minutes from Meeting of 13 September 2000

Agreed

The minutes were an accurate record of the previous meeting.

Mr D O'Connor arrived at 10:35am

3. Matters arising from the minutes of previous meeting

In the minutes of 13.09.00, it was stated that "All NIAO Reports must be agreed with by the departments. This can be a time-consuming exercise". Clarification was sought on what was an "agreed" report.

The C&AG explained that an agreed report was one in which the facts were agreed with the audited body and also incorporated the views of the audited body. [Within the report, the C&AG also has the opportunity to express his views].

It was explained that this procedure took place in order to ensure that the contents of the report were not disputed at the subsequent PAC hearing.

4. Presentation by the C&AG and his staff on the NIAO Report on The Administration of Income Support Benefit (incorporating a Questions and Answer Session)

The C&AG gave a brief introduction on the Report, outlining the roles and responsibilities of the Social Security Agency (SSA). He emphasised the need for the Committee to limit its questions to income support benefit and not to be drawn into other areas for which SSA is responsible. He also recommended that the Committee should not get entangled in the myriad of figures within the Report, but should focus in on the fundamental issue - there has been an unacceptable level of "incorrectness" in the calculation of Income Support Benefit.

Mr Carrick arrived at 10:45am.

After the C&AG's introduction, a five-minute video was shown to the Committee which highlighted the high level of public interest in the subject matter.

Following the video, Mr Edgar, (NIAO Director of VFM) gave a talk which detailed, chapter by chapter, the main issues in the Report. During the presentation the C&AG, Mr Edgar and Mr McKay (NIAO Audit Manager) addressed a number of queries raised by the members.

During the discussions, the Audit Office team outlined the type of questions to be asked in order to draw out conclusions and recommendations for the subsequent PAC Report. Additional questions to be put to the Accounting Officer at the hearing were also put forward and discussed by the members. Throughout the discussion it was emphasised that the questions in the brief, forwarded to members prior to the meeting, covered all the main issues in the Report. However, they were neither prescriptive nor complete and members could ask either different or supplementary questions if they considered it appropriate.

Mr Dallat left the meeting at 11:30am
Mr Dallat returned at 11:32am
Mr O'Connor left the meeting at 11:45am
Mr O'Connor returned at 11:55am.

5. Any other business

(i) Proceedings for the Evidence Session to be held on 28 September 2000

The Chairman drew to the attention of the members the need to ensure that the questions which have been allocated are asked. The Clerk highlighted the importance of questions prefixed with "*" which were considered to be of the highest priority for the drafting of the Committee Report. The need to keep questions brief was also emphasized.

The Clerk requested that members be seated in the Senate Chamber by 10:20am. This will give the Chairman the opportunity to re-allocate questions, should members be unable to attend.

(ii) Senate Chamber Arrangements - The issue of the suitability of the Senate Chamber arrangements for evidence sessions was raised - members felt that acoustics were poor and there was inadequate provision for holding and reviewing members papers during the session. The Clerk reported that the issue had been raised by the Chairman in the Liaison Committee, and is currently under consideration. However, for the Session on 28 September, facilities will be as per the hearing of 5 July.

The meeting closed at 12:01pm.

William B Bell
Committee Chairman
19 October 2000