Minutes of Proceedings

The meeting opened at 10.09am in public session.

1. Apologies

There were no apologies.

2. Chairperson’s Business

2.1 The Chairperson advised Members that the newly formed Sub-Committee for the appointment of a Specialist Adviser, met on Wednesday 10 December and agreed the evaluation criteria, weightings and scoring framework for the selection process, and that the deadline for the submission of bids was noon on 31 December 2008.

Agreed: Members agreed that the next meeting of the Sub-Committee would take place at noon on 5 January 2009, at which time there would be an evaluation of the bids received.

3. Minutes of Proceedings of meeting held on 9 December 2008

Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting held on 9 December 2008, as amended.

4. Matters arising

4.1 Members noted the terms of the letter from the Chairperson to the Secretary of State, dated 10 December 2008, in response to the issues raised in the Secretary of State’s letter of 3 December 2008.

4.2 Members noted the terms of the memo from the Committee Clerk to the Clerk of the Committee for Finance and Personnel, about financial matters relating to the devolution of policing and justice.

4.3 Members also noted correspondence from the Committee Clerk to the Clerk of the Committee on Procedures, about the need for a Standing Order, in due course, that would preclude members of the Policing Board or any District Policing Partnership from serving, simultaneously, as members of the Justice Committee, once established.

5. Correspondence

The Chairperson advised Members that a response had been received from the First Minister and deputy First Minister, to the Committee’s letters of 19 and 24 November, and the subsequent reminder of 3 December 2008.

Agreed: Members agreed to deal with the response during the substantive discussions and consideration of matters relating to the devolution of policing and justice, and which would be recorded by Hansard.

5. Devolution of Policing and Justice Matters

In relation to the issue of the devolution of policing and justice matters, the Chairperson declared the following interests:

• Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board

The Chairperson invited Members to declare their relevant interests.

Members declared the following interests:

Nelson McCausland

• Member of Belfast District Policing Partnership

Alex Maskey

• Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board

Ian Paisley Jnr

• Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board

5.1 Committee Briefing Paper 11/08/09 – Fourth Revision

Agreed: The Committee agreed to take the views of each party, in turn, on the unresolved issues in the Category One List of Issues, as represented in the Committee Briefing Paper - 11/08/09 (Fourth Revision).

Members then turned their attention to, and considered, the following issues on the Category 1 List.

5.2.C What would be the status of the Minister’s position in, and relationship with, the Executive Committee; and would the Minister be required to bring significant, or controversial, matters to the Executive Committee?

There was some discussion on Issue C.

Agreed: Members agreed to return to Issue C at a future meeting.

5.2.G What would be the structure of the Policing and Justice Department, and what functions should be placed there and/or OFMDFM?

There was some discussion on Issue G.

10.21am Mr Attwood joined the meeting.

Agreed: Members agreed that the Judicial Appointments Commission should be the responsibility of, and be attached and accountable to, the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

Agreed: Members agreed that the Public Prosecution Service should be a non-Ministerial Department.

Agreed: Members agreed to return to the issue of whether the Public Prosecution Service should be associated with the Department of Justice or the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

Agreed: Members agreed that the Northern Ireland Policing Board, the Office of the Police Ombudsman, Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland, Probation Board, Northern Ireland Law Commission, Northern Ireland Court Service and the Northern Ireland Legal Services Commission should be the responsibility of, and be attached and accountable to, the Department of Justice.

5.2.H What arrangements need to be in place at the point of devolution, and beyond, to ensure that Members of the Statutory Committee for any new department should not sit, simultaneously, on the Policing Board or any District Policing Partnership?

Agreed: Members agreed the revised wording of Issue H.

The Chairperson reminded Members that the Committee had previously agreed that, in the meantime, there should be a convention which would be respected by the political parties, and which would give effect to the sentiments of Recommendation 28 of the Committee’s original report, and that the matter had been referred, formally, to the Committee on Procedures for the purposes of providing ‘certainty’ through Standing Orders.

5.3 A response from the First Minister and deputy First Minister to the Committee’s letters of 19 and 24 November, and the subsequent reminder of 3 December 2008, was tabled.

Members welcomed the letter and there was some discussion on its content.

10.27am Mr Danny Kennedy left the meeting.

On a proposal from Mr Attwood that the Committee should further respond to the First Minister and deputy First Minister with the following three questions:

• Is the public consultation consistent with section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act, and will it involve the normal 12-week period for consultation?
• What actions contained in the process paper are sequential, and which are concurrent?
• Is there any process for the identification of a candidate for Minister of Justice, beyond nominations from Members of the Assembly?

Question put: That this Committee writes to the First Minister and deputy First Minister with the following three questions:

• Is the public consultation consistent with section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act, and will it involve the normal 12-week period for consultation?
• What actions contained in the process paper are sequential, and which are concurrent?
• Is there any process for the identification of a candidate for Minister of Justice, beyond nominations from Members of the Assembly?

The Committee divided, Ayes 3; Noes 7.

The proposal accordingly fell.

The Chairperson suspended the meeting at 10.43am.

The Chairperson resumed the meeting, in closed session, at 2.07pm with the following Members also present:

Mr Raymond McCartney (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Alex Attwood
Mr Simon Hamilton
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mr Danny Kennedy
Mr Alex Maskey
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Alan McFarland
Mr John O’Dowd
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr

6. Draft Report

Members considered an initial draft of its first report on the arrangements for the devolution of policing and justice matters.

Agreed:

• Pages 6 and 7, read and agreed.
• Page 8 ‘A Fresh Mandate’ read and agreed, subject to the inclusion of the date of the letter from the Speaker.
• Pages 9-13 ‘The Committee’s Approach’, content to be reduced.
• Pages 14-17 ‘The Category One List of Issues and the associated recommendations’, to be re-drafted and to include details of the type of decision taken by the Committee on each of the recommendations.
• Pages 18-19 ‘The powers to be transferred, and the timing thereof’, to be re-drafted and to include details of the type of decision taken by the Committee on each of the recommendations.
• Pages 20-21 ‘The appointment of a Minister’, to be re-drafted, and to include details of the type of decision taken by the Committee on each of the recommendations.
• Pages 22-23 ‘The Minister’s role in, and relationship with, the Northern Ireland Executive’, to be considered further on 6 January 2009.
• Pages 24-25 ‘The Category Two List of Issues’, read and agreed.
• Page 26 ‘The Category Three List of Issues’, read and agreed.
• Pages 2-3, Executive Summary, to be re-drafted.
• Pages 4-5, Summary of Recommendations, details to be inserted.

7. Date, time and place of next meeting

The next meeting will be held on Tuesday, 6th January 2009 at 11.00am in Room 21, Parliament Buildings.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 3.54pm.

Mr Jimmy Spratt
Chairperson, Assembly and Executive Review Committee
6th January 2008