Minutes of Proceedings

The meeting opened at 11:04am in public session.

1. Apologies

2. Draft Minutes of Proceedings of meeting held on 8 January 2008

Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting held on 8 January 2008.

3. Chairperson’s Business

3.1 Senior Salaries Review Body

Members noted the response received from the Speaker regarding the Senior Salaries Review Body.

3.2 NI Affairs Committee Lunch

Members noted that a lunch has been arranged with the NI Affairs Committee on Thursday 17 January from 1-2pm in the Commonwealth Room.

4. Efficiency Review Panel

Members noted the letter from OFMdFM at tab 2 of their packs regarding the Efficiency Review Panel and the role of the Committee in Strand 2 and 3 reviews.

Agreed: That the Clerk respond to OFMdFM reaffirming the Committee’s desire to be consulted on the terms of reference of the review and also noting that the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister may also have an interest in the review.

5. Inquiry into the devolution of policing and justice

The following interests were declared:

Jeffrey Donaldson:

• Member, Her Majesty’s Privy Council
• Member , Northern Ireland Policing Board

Ian McCrea:

• Member, Cookstown District Policing Partnership

5.1 Update from Chair and Deputy Chair regarding meeting with OFMdFM Special Advisors

11.17am The meeting was held in private session

Members received an update from the Chair and Deputy Chair regarding their meeting with OFMdFM Special Advisors on 14 January.

11.26 Carmel Hanna joined the meeting

11.26 Raymond McCartney joined the meeting

Agreed: That the Clerk write to the Head of the Civil Service, Mr Nigel Hamilton, inviting him to provide a briefing to the Committee on the preparations which are being made for the devolution of policing and justice.

11.36am The meeting was held in public session

5.2 Further discussions on matters to be transferred

5.2.1 Appointments to the Parades Commission and its operation

Members noted the briefing paper at tab 4 of their packs which provided a summary of the discussions which have taken place to date in relation to the Parades Commission.

Agreed:

• There were diverse opinions about the transfer of ‘appointments to the Parades Commission and its operation’ and there was no consensus about whether this should continue to be a ‘reserved’ matter, and
• That the Clerk develop wording for inclusion in the final report, which might recommend that, on matters where there were diverse opinions, the Assembly would continue to keep under review those matters which continue to be ‘reserved’.

5.2.2 Future powers of the army to operate in support of the police

Members noted the briefing paper at tab 4 of their packs which provided a summary of the discussions which have taken place to date in relation to the future powers of the army to operate in support of the police.

Agreed:

• That the matters described in the Northern Ireland Office Discussion Document (February 2006) should be transferred.
• There were diverse opinions about the transfer of those matters which are ‘excepted’ and there was no consensus on seeking an amendment to the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to allow for a request to be made by the Assembly for the transfer of these ‘excepted’ matters.

5.2.3 50:50 Recruitment to the PSNI

Members noted the briefing paper at tab 4 of their packs which provided a summary of the discussions which have taken place to date in relation to 50:50 recruitment to the PSNI.

Agreed:

• There were diverse opinions about the transfer of matters relating to 50:50 recruitment to the PSNI and there was no consensus about whether this should continue to be a ‘reserved’ matter, and
• That the Clerk develop wording for inclusion in the final report, which might recommend that, on matters where there were diverse opinions, the Assembly would continue to keep under review those matters which continue to be ‘reserved’.

5.3 Discussion on structure and accountability

Members noted the briefing paper (tabled) regarding the structural and accountability issues in relation to the current policing and justice organisations.

Members discussed the issues in relation to each policing and justice organisation in turn:

5.3.1 Northern Ireland Prison Service

Agreed: That the Committee was content with the NIO proposals for devolution of the Northern Ireland Prison Service.

5.3.2 Forensic Science Northern Ireland

Agreed: That the Committee was content with the NIO proposals for devolution of Forensic Science Northern Ireland.

12.02pm John O’Dowd left the meeting

5.3.3 Youth Justice Agency

Agreed: That the Committee was content with the NIO proposals for devolution of the Youth Justice Agency.

5.3.4 Compensation Agency

Agreed: That the Committee was content with the NIO proposals for devolution of the Compensation Agency.

5.3.5 Office of the Police Ombudsman

Agreed:

• That the Clerk will inquire whether the potential role of the NI Minister or OFMdFM in appointing the Ombudsman is more than an advisory role and whether the Ombudsman is in fact appointed by the Assembly.
• That the party papers should consider whether the advisory role in appointments is to be devolved and whether it should sit with OFMdFM or any new Department of policing and justice.

5.3.6 Northern Ireland Police Fund

Agreed: That the Clerk will seek clarification from NIO on whether the funding comes from the policing budget or whether it is a separate arrangement.

5.3.7 Probation Board

12.12pm Danny Kennedy left the meeting

Agreed:

• That the Clerk will draft wording to be included in the final report which will make reference to the recommendation in the CJR 2000 that consideration should be given to the joining of the Probation Board, Prison Service and Youth Justice Agency into one system, and
• That it will be for any new Department of policing and justice to consult and decide on the future status of the PBNI.

12.16pm Ian McCrea left the meeting

5.3.8 Northern Ireland Law Commission

Agreed: That the Clerk will draft wording to be included in the final report which will recommend that lines of communication be set up between any new Department of policing and justice and the NI Law Commission as soon as possible in order for the Department to input into the work programme of the Commission.

12.17pm John O’Dowd joined the meeting

5.3.9 Criminal Injuries Compensation Appeals Panel

Agreed: That the Committee was content with the NIO proposals for devolution of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Appeals Panel.

5.3.10 Parades Commission

Agreed: That the issues in relation to the transfer of the Parades Commission will be dealt with as part of the ‘matters to be transferred’.

5.3.11 Northern Ireland Policing Board

Agreed:

12.25pm Ian McCrea joined the meeting

That the party papers should address the following issues:

• Whether MLAs should continue to sit on the Policing Board.
• If there are to be no MLAs on the Policing Board, whether the political parties should continue to appoint the 10 political members of the Board.
• Whether the conclusions of the PFG Committee, that members of the Policing Board should not be permitted to sit on any new Statutory Committee for policing and justice, should be endorsed.
• The need for a Memorandum of Understanding to clarify the relationships which exist between the PSNI, the Policing Board and any new Statutory Committee for policing and justice, and which would deal with any conflict of interest.

5.3.12 Northern Ireland Legal Services Commission

Agreed:

• That responsibility for policy development in relation to criminal legal aid should be transferred from the NI Court Service.

That the Committee should await the letter from the NI Legal Services Commission before considering

• Where responsibility for criminal legal aid policy should transfer to.
• Whether responsibility for all aspects of civil and criminal legal aid should sit with one body (either the Legal Services Commission or any new Department of policing and justice).
• Whether the NI Legal Services Commission should remain as a public body and be accountable to any new Department of policing and justice or whether it should cease to be a public body with its responsibilities being taken over by the Department.

5.3.13 Judicial Appointments Commission

Agreed: That the Clerk develop wording for inclusion in the final report to support the recommendation of the Lord Chief Justice that it would be important for there to be a protocol between the Commission and the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister regarding judicial appointments.

5.3.14 Judicial Appointments Ombudsman

Agreed: That the Committee was content with the NIO proposals for devolution of the Judicial Appointments Ombudsman.

5.3.15 Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland

Agreed:

• That if devolution occurs in May, responsibility for appointing a new Director by August 2008 will fall to the new Department.
• That if devolution does not happen by this time, responsibility for appointing the Director will remain with the NIO.
• That the Clerk will develop wording for inclusion in the final report which will recommend that issues raised in the written submission from the Criminal Justice Inspectorate be addressed by any new Department of policing and justice post devolution.

5.3.16 Northern Ireland Court Service

Agreed:

That the party papers should address the following issues:

• The degree of independence of the Court Service
• How accountability can be ensured in a future NI Court Service model.
• The division of responsibilities between the future NI Court Service agency/ independent body and any new Department of policing and justice.
• Whether the agency should continue to deliver policy advice and legislative support, or whether these functions should transfer to the Department.
• The composition of the Board of any future independent Court Service.

5.3.17 Public Prosecution Service (PPS)

Agreed:

That the party papers should address the following issues:

• The degree of independence of the Public Prosecution Service.
• The relationship between the Public Prosecution Service and the Attorney General for NI.
• The relationship between the Public Prosecution Service and the Assembly.
• The relationship between the Public Prosecution Service and the proposed Advocate General for NI.
• Which Department should have responsibility for providing funding the Court Service and the Public Prosecution Service.

5.3.18 Other Issues

Agreed:

• That the parties may wish to address the following additional issues in their party papers.

Attorney General

Following the briefing from the Head of the Civil Service:

• Whether the post of Attorney General will be a full time or part time role.
• The costs associated with this office.

SOCA and the Security Services

• The lines of communication and accountability between SOCA and the Security Services and any new Department of policing and justice in relation to ‘excepted’ matters such as national security and organised crime.

North/South Agreements

• The status of North/South agreements post devolution in relation to devolved matters? Whether they require re-negotiation by any new Department of policing and justice.
• Whether there are any further cross border intergovernmental agreements which require consideration prior to devolution.

6. Draft Press Release

Members agreed the draft press release as amended.

7. Date, time and place of next meeting

The next meeting will be held on Tuesday, 15 January at 11.00am in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.03pm.

RT HON JEFFREY DONALDSON, MP
Chairperson, Assembly and Executive Review Committee
22 January 2008