Proceedings of the Committee on the Preparation for Government

16 August 2006

Minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday, 16 August 2006 in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.

In the Chair: Jim Wells

Present: Alex Attwood
Fred Cobain
Arlene Foster
Dolores Kelly
Gerry Kelly
Danny Kennedy
Naomi Long
Fra McCann
Alan McFarland
Sean Neeson
Peter Weir
Sammy Wilson MP

In Attendance: Nuala Dunwoody (Clerk Assistant)
Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Neil Currie (Assistant Clerk)
Pauline Innes (Clerical Officer)
David Douglas (Clerical Officer)
Tim Moore (Senior Researcher)

Observing: Aodhan Mac Ant Saoir (Sinn Fein researcher)
Philip Weir (DUP researcher)
Mark Neal (UUPAG researcher)

The meeting commenced at 10.04am.

1. Apologies

Dr Farren (Mr Attwood attended the meeting as SDLP representative in place of Dr Farren)

Mr Ford (Mr Neeson attended the meeting as Alliance representative in place of Mr Ford)

Dr McCrea MP (Mr Weir attended the meeting as DUP representative in place of Dr McCrea MP)

Dr McDonnell MP (Ms Kelly attended the meeting as SDLP representative in place of Dr McDonnell MP)

Mr McGuinness MP (Mr Kelly attended the meeting as Sinn Fein representative in place of Mr McGuinness MP)

Mr McNarry (Mr Cobain attended the meeting as UUPAG representative in place of Mr McNarry)

Lord Morrow (Ms Foster attended the meeting as DUP representative in place of Lord Morrow)

Mr Murphy MP (Mr McCann attended the meeting as Sinn Fein representative in place of Mr Murphy MP)

Mr Paisley (Mr Wilson MP attended the meeting as DUP representative in place of Mr Paisley)

2. Declaration of Interests

Danny Kennedy declared the following interests: – member of Policing Board.

Mr Kennedy pointed out that he had declared this interest at the meeting on 9 August 2006, but the minutes had not recorded this. 

3. Previous Minutes

Other than Mr Kennedy’s declaration of interests, the minutes of the meeting of 9 August 2006 were agreed. 

4. Matters arising

The following papers, which had been requested by the Committee, were tabled at the meeting:

• NIO paper on national security issues/excepted and reserved matters contained within Schedules 2 and 3 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998
• Assembly Research Service paper on excepted and reserved matters/powers of the Scottish Parliament
• Assembly Research Service paper on the role of the Lord Chancellor in Northern Ireland

It was agreed to suspend the meeting for one hour to allow Members to examine these papers.

The meeting was suspended at 10.14am.

The meeting reconvened at 11.20am.

Mr Wilson joined the meeting at 11.20am.

5. Letter from the Secretary of State dated 9 August 2006

Mr Kennedy left the meeting at 11.39am.

It was agreed that the Secretary of State should be urged to attend a meeting of the Committee at the end of August or beginning of September.

6. Discussion on Intelligence Services

Mr Cobain left the meeting at 12.15pm.

Mr Kennedy rejoined the meeting at 12.19pm.

It was agreed to request, from the Secretary of State, copies of the slides used by ACC Sheridan at a recent presentation to a District Policing Partnership, along with any papers presented at the meeting.

Mr Cobain rejoined the meeting at 12.23pm.

It was agreed to request, from the Secretary of State, up-to-date information on the protocols being developed to deal with the relationship between MI5 and all relevant agencies in Northern Ireland.

It was agreed to request, from the Secretary of State, up-to-date information on the accountability mechanisms and other safeguards that are being prepared in relation to the operation of MI5 in Northern Ireland.

Ms Long left the meeting at 12.24pm.

The meeting was suspended at 12.24pm.

The meeting reconvened at 12.48pm.

7. NIO paper on excepted and reserved matters contained within Schedules 2 and 3 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998

Paragraph 9(c) of Schedule 3: The prevention & detection of crime and powers of arrest and detention in connection with crime or criminal proceedings

It was agreed to request, from the Secretary of State, up-to-date information about the proposed role of the Serious Organised Crime Agency in Northern Ireland.

Mr Cobain left the meeting at 1.16pm.

It was agreed that the arrangements for dealing with criminal records and disclosures should be regulated on a European basis.

9(d): Prosecutions

It was agreed to defer consideration of this matter to the meeting on 23 August.

9A: Chief Inspector of Criminal Justice for NI

The Committee noted the position.

10: Public Order

Mr Cobain rejoined the meeting at 1.33pm.

It was agreed to request, from the Secretary of State, clarification on the broad ground rules and further information regarding the reference to the army operating in support of the police.

It was agreed to request, from the Secretary of State, clarification on the powers of the Chief Constable to challenge a determination of the Parades Commission. In particular, the checks, balances and safeguards that are to be established.

It was agreed to refer to the PfG Committee meeting on 18 August, the issue of whether the Assembly might wish to seek devolution of ‘appointments to the Parades Commission and its operation’.

11: The Police and the policing accountability framework

Mr Kennedy rejoined the meeting at 1.36pm.

It was agreed to request, from the Secretary of State, clarification and further information regarding the reference to the power of the Secretary of State to issue statutory guidance to the Police Ombudsman. In particular, the Committee asked for clarification regarding the proposal that, following devolution, the devolved Minister would also have this power. Members were concerned to hear how this shared responsibility would work in practice.

Ms Foster left the meeting at 1.48pm.

Mr McFarland proposed that the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, through the Assembly, should advise the Crown on the appointment of an ombudsman. There was not consensus and the proposal fell.

The meeting was suspended at 2.09pm.

The meeting reconvened at 2.20pm.

It was agreed that the Policing Board should retain its current powers.

Mr Cobain left the meeting at 2.38pm.

It was agreed to give further consideration to the interface between the Policing Board, a Minister for policing and an Assembly Committee on Policing and Justice.

12: Firearms & explosives

It was agreed that a paper should be prepared for the Committee on the extent of devolution in Scotland with regard to firearms and explosives, including clarification on what constitutes ‘automatic’ and ‘semi-automatic’ weapons.

Ms Kelly left the meeting at 3.02pm.

It was agreed to refer to the PfG Committee meeting on 21 August, the issue of whether responsibility for explosives regulation should fall to the Minister for Public Safety or to a Minister for policing and justice.

Ms Kelly rejoined the meeting at 3.04pm
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15A: The Northern Ireland Law Commission

The Committee noted the position.

8. Discussion on the Police Ombudsman

Following discussion it was agreed to defer this matter.

9. Any Other Business

(a) Press Release

The Committee agreed a press release outlining the continuing work of the Committee and the Sub-group, for issue to key media outlets along with copies of the latest Official Report of PfG Committee proceedings.

(b) Sub-group on the Economic Challenges facing Northern Ireland – Evidence from Ministers

The Committee considered a letter from the Principal Clerk of the Sub-group on the Economic Challenges facing Northern Ireland, and gave its approval for the Sub-group to invite Maria Eagle MP to an evidence session in early September.

10. Next Meeting

The Committee will next meet at 10.00am on Friday, 18 August 2006 in Room 144, Parliament Buildings to discuss issues relating to Rights; Safeguards; Equality and Victims.

It was agreed that the meeting on Wednesday, 23 August 2006 would be an all-day meeting with lunch provided.

The meeting adjourned at 4.00pm.