Agreed: - that the
Secretariat should ascertain the views of the independent Members prior to
the next meeting and that the Committee should make a decision on this matter
as the first item of business on the agenda of the next meeting;
- that, should
the independent Members decide to send an observer, their representative
should be present in the building, ready to take his place, should a positive
decision be made at the next meeting.
3. CONSIDERATION OF STANDING
ORDERS
Following discussion
Agreed: - that the
Secretariat should circulate to Members copies of the following Standing
Orders:
House of Commons,
Westminster
(including Select Committees)
1973 Assembly
1982 Assembly
Dail Eireann
EU Parliament
- that the Secretariat
should prepare and circulate a discussion document showing the Main Headings
of the 1973 Assembly Standing Orders cross-referenced to the other listed
Standing Orders.
4. ANY OTHER BUSINESS
Nil.
5. DATES/VENUE ETC OF
MEETINGS
Following discussion
Agreed: - that the
next meeting of the Committee should take place at 10.30 am on Thursday 16
July 1998 in Parliament Buildings - the room number to be advised.
- that after that date, the
Committee should meet weekly on Mondays commencing on Monday 20 July 1998;
- that additional weekly meetings
could be called if necessary.
There being no further business
the meeting closed at 12.20 pm.
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Monday 20 July
1998 at 10.30 am
in the Private
Dining Room, Room 120
Parliament Buildings
Present: Mr P Weir Mr
N Dodds
Mr D S Dalton Mr
G Campbell
Mr F Cobain Mr
C Murphy
Dr E Birnie* Mr
J Kelly
Mr D Haughey Mr
A Maskey*
Ms B Rodgers Mr
S Neeson*
Mr M Durkan* Mr
N Boyd*
Mr A Attwood* Ms
J Morrice
Rev Dr I Paisley
MP MEP Mr W Hutchinson*
*Members acting
as substitutes
In the Chair: Mr N Carson
In Attendance: Mr M Barnes
1. ROLL CALL
The Chairman called the roll
and marked members present, noting those who were acting as substitutes in
accordance with the agreement on this issue made at the first meeting.
2. OBSERVER STATUS ON THE
COMMITTEE FOR A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE INDEPENDENT MEMBERS
The Chairman confirmed
that as requested, the Secretariat had written to the independent members
seeking views on this issue. He reported that no response had been received.
It was unanimously agreed to postpone this topic until the next meeting.
3. SUBSTITUTION
Before proceeding to the next
item on the Agenda, Mr Haughey raised a point of order relating to the previous
meeting, particularly the nomination of Dr Paisley by a member who had been
acting as a substitute before the Committee had agreed on the use of substitutes.
Following discussion during
which Dr Paisley indicated that he did not wish to stand for the office of
Chairman of the Committee because of other business commitments.
Agreed: that in future there
should be a roll call prior to the commencement of business.
4. CHAIRMAN'S CASTING
VOTE
Dr Birnie raised the question
of the Chairman having a casting vote in the event of a tie. Following Discussion:
Agreed: that the Chairman
should not have a casting vote, the Committee reconsidering its stance
on an issue in the event of a tie.
5. ELECTION OF CHAIRPERSON
Mr Carson called for nominations
for the office of Chairperson. The following proposals were made:
Mr F Cobain - proposed
by Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP
seconded by
Mr P Weir
Mr D Haughey- proposed
by Ms B Rodgers
seconded by
Mr M Durkan
Mr Carson then put the Question
regarding the proposal that Mr Cobain should be Chairman of the Committee.
The Committee divided: Ayes
9 Noes 9
Ayes
Noes
Mr P Weir Mr
A Attwood
Mr D S Dalton Mr
D Haughey
Mr F Cobain Ms
B Rodgers
Dr E Birnie Mr
M Durkan
Rev Dr I Paisley
MP MEP Mr C Murphy
Mr N Dodds Mr
A Maskey
Mr G Campbell Mr
J Kelly
Mr N Boyd Mr
S Neeson
Mr W Hutchinson Ms
J Morrice
Mr Carson then put the Question
regarding the proposal that Mr Haughey should be Chairman of the Committee.
The Committee divided: Ayes
9 Noes 9
Ayes
Noes
Mr A Attwood Mr
P Weir
Mr D Haughey Mr
D S Dalton
Ms B Rodgers Mr
F Cobain
Mr M Durkan Dr
E Birnie
Mr C Murphy Rev
Dr I Paisley MP MEP
Mr A Maskey Mr
N Dodds
Mr J Kelly Mr
G Campbell
Mr S Neeson Mr
N Boyd
Ms J Morrice Mr
W Hutchinson
Agreed: - that in the circumstances,
Mr Carson should continue in the Chair;
- that parties would
consider the issue prior to the next meeting when the election of a Chairman
would appear on the Agenda.
6. CONSIDERATION OF STANDING
ORDERS
Mr Carson referred to the
material circulated by the Secretariat for the information of Members and
asked how the Committee wished to proceed. He suggested that the Secretariat
could, with reference to the 1973 Standing Order, prepare a list of non-contentious
and more difficult Standing Orders. In addition, he read to the Committee
a letter dated 9 July 1998 from Mr Paul Murphy MP, Minister of State (copy
attached for information).
Following discussion -
Agreed: - that the Secretariat
should produce a working draft of non contentious rules, based on the 1973
Assembly Standing Orders;
- that the working draft
should also address the more contentious orders, indicating options where
possible;
- that the Committee
would address additional Standing Orders proposed by the Secretary of State
(advised in the letter from Mr Murphy) in due course;
- that the requirements
for Standing Orders outlined in the Northern Ireland Bill should also be
addressed in due course.
7. ANY OTHER BUSINESS
(i) Press Issues
Agreed: - that if the
Presiding Officer is content, the minutes of the meetings of the Committee
to assist the Presiding Officer should be circulated to members of the Committee
on Standing Orders to ensure that press issues are properly addressed;
(ii) Copies of minutes,
papers et cetera to members acting as substitutes.
Following discussion.
Agreed: - that these papers
should be passed on if necessary to the members attending the next meeting.
8. NEXT MEETING
Agreed: that the next
meeting of the Committee should take place at 10.30 am on Monday 27
July 1998.
Noted: that Dr Paisley
could not attend and would be represented by a substitute.
cc: Committee
Members
Initial
Presiding Officer
Party
Whips
Deputy
Clerk (Business)
Second
Clerk (Business)
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Monday, 27 July
1998 at 10.30 am
in Room 115,
Parliament Buildings
Present: Mr P Weir Mr
S Wilson (representing Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP)
Mr D S Dalton Mr C Murphy
Mr F Cobain Mr F Molloy
Mr M McGimpsey Mr J Kelly
Mr D Haughey Mr S Neeson
(representing Mr S Close)
Mrs B Rodgers Mr N Boyd
(representing Mr R McCartney QC MP)
Mr S Farren Ms J Morrice
Mr M Durkan Mr D Ervine
(representing
Mr E McGrady MP)
Mr N Dodds
Mr G Campbell
In the Chair pro-tem: Mr
N Carson
In attendance: Mr M Barnes
1. ROLL CALL
Mr Carson called the roll and
marked members present, noting those who were acting as substitutes in accordance
with the agreement on this issue made at the first meeting.
- OBSERVER STATUS ON THE COMMITTEE
FOR A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE INDEPENDENT MEMBERS
Mr Carson reported that no response
had yet been received from the Independent Members.
- ELECTION OF CHAIRPERSON
Following discussion
Proposed: that the office
of Chairman should be alternated on a meeting to meeting basis between
Mr Haughey and Mr Cobain, with Mr Haughey chairing the first meeting. [Mr
McGimpsey]
[Mr Campbell]
The proposal was agreed unanimously.
Mr Haughey took the chair.
Mr Dalton joined the meeting.
- CONSIDERATION OF STANDING
ORDERS
Agreed: - to examine the
working draft prepared by the Secretariat of non-contentious and other more
difficult rules, which used the Standing Orders of the 1973 Northern Ireland
Assembly as a base;
- to commence this examination
by working through the listed non-contentious rules.
1973 Assembly
Rule No 1 Notice of First
Meeting of New Assembly
(Page 3)
- Agreed following discussion.
Rule No 2 Procedure at
First Meeting of New Assembly
(Page 3)
In the course of
discussion, the following points were made:
- while members of the Committee
were generally content that the Presiding Officer should be referred to
as 'Speaker', it was noted that the Agreement reached at the multi-party
negotiations referred to the Chair of the Assembly;
- it was acknowledged that
the Rule needed to be redrafted to take account of the requirements in
Rule 3 of the Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly with particular
reference to registering a designation of identity;
- concern was expressed at
the use of the designation 'other' in Rule 3(1) of Initial Standing Orders
of the New Assembly, and of the ability to change designations permitted
in Rule 3(3) of Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly, and it was
agreed that these topics should be considered in detail at the next meeting.
At this point the Committee
called for copies of the Northern Ireland Bill, and the Chairman suspended
the meeting at 11.00 am, resuming at 11.30 am.
Rule No 3 Election of Speaker
(Page 4) 3(1) Agreed
3(2) Agreed, with the omission
of 'Mr' in line 3.
3(3) & (4) Agreed,
subject to redrafting in accordance with Rule 12(2) [voting: cross community
support] and Rule 13 [election of Presiding Officer] of Initial Standing
Orders of the New Assembly.
Rule No 4 Procedure when
office of Speaker becomes vacant
(Page 5)
Agreed: - Clerk to
report any vacancy to Assembly.
- Assembly to elect Speaker,
election being chaired by outgoing speaker or in his absence by the Clerk.
- Where there is no agreement
on the election of a Speaker, sessions will be presided over by the Deputy
Speakers.
Rule No 5 Assistant Speakers
(Page 5)
Agreed: 2 deputies
to the Speaker should be elected.
Noted: - that the
Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly are silent on the need for cross
community support for the election of a Deputy Presiding Officer;
- that Rule 5(2)
is redundant and will not be required.
Rule No 6 Roll of Members
(Page 6)
Agreed: - that Rule
6(1) should be modified to make reference to the requirement stated in Rule
3(1) of the Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly that Members signing
the Assembly's Roll of Membership should register a designation of identity;
- that discussion
on the "Other" designation should be deferred to the next meeting;
- that Rule 6(2)
was acceptable;
- that Rule 6(3)
should be amended to refer to the requirement to register a designation
of identity.
Rule No 7 Office of the Clerk
and Records of the Assembly
(Page 7)
Agreed: - that Rule
7(1) and (2) were acceptable and that Rule 7(3) would require amendment
as the Clerk to the New Assembly would have no powers.
Rule No 8 Quorum
(Page 7)
Agreed: - that the
quorum of the New Assembly should be set at 10, as indicated in the Initial
Standing Orders of the New Assembly.
Rule No 12 Pecuniary Interest
(Page 11)
Agreed: that this Rule will
require redrafting to reflect the requirements on Members' Interests set
out in Clause 35 of the Northern Ireland Bill.
Rule No 13 Delaying Motions
(Page 11)
Agreed: that discussion
in the reformulation of this Rule should be deferred to the next meeting,
the discussion to include the need to refer to Petitions of Concern (see
Initial Standing Orders for the New Assembly - Rule 12(5), the need to find
a better descriptive word than 'Delaying' and the need to refer to other
devices eg, guillotines and closures.
Rule No 14 Business of the
Assembly
(Page 12)
In the course of discussion,
the Committee identified the need to establish a Business Committee of the
Assembly under the chairmanship of the Presiding Officer, at which the future
business of the Assembly could be discussed, agreed and scheduled.
It was agreed that the Order
Paper for next day should be issued to members before the end of a sitting.
With regard to Rule 14(2)
which dealt with the Order of Business, it was agreed that the Secretariat
would seek the Scottish and Welsh proposals and the source of messages to
the Assembly and to revisit this particular rule at the next meeting.
Mr Kelly left the meeting at
12.00 noon.
The Chairman suspended the meeting
at 12 noon, resuming at 12.15 pm.
Rule No 14 Agreed: that the
Secretariat should produce a re-draft of Rule 14
(Page 12) (including the
Order of Business) at the next meeting.
(Continued)
5. ANY OTHER BUSINESS
5.1 DATE, TIME AND VENUE
OF NEXT MEETING
Agreed: that the next
meeting should take place on Monday 24 August 1998 at 10.30 am in Room
115, Parliament Buildings.
Noted: that as Mr McCartney
will be on holiday, Mr Boyd will represent him at this meeting.
5.2 ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was closed at
1.00 pm.
NIGEL CARSON
Deputy Clerk (Business)
THE NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Monday 24 August
1998 at 10.30 am
in Long Gallery,
Parliament Buildings
PRESENT: Mr P
Weir
Mr D S Dalton
Mr F Cobain
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Mr E McGrady MP
Mr N Dodds
Mr P Berry (representing
Mr G Campbell)
Mr J Wells (representing
Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP)
Mr C Murphy
Mr S Close
Mr N Boyd (representing
Mr R McCartney QC MP)
Ms J Morrice
Mr D Ervine
Mr A Attwood (representing
Mr D Haughey)
Mr E O'Neill (representing
Mrs B Rodgers)
Mr D Watson (see
item 2 below)
IN THE CHAIR: Mr
F Cobain
IN ATTENDANCE: Mr
M Barnes and Mr D Arnold
1. ROLL CALL
At the present of the Chairman,
Mr Barnes called the roll and marked Members present, noting those who were
acting as substitutes in accordance with the agreement on this issue.
The Committee also agreed that
on this occasion Mr Attwood and Mr O'Neill should be allowed to substitute
respectively for Mr Haughey and Mrs Rodgers. It had not been possible, in
this case, to meet the usual notification requirements established at the
first meeting of the Committee.
2. OBSERVER STATUS
ON THE COMMITTEE FOR A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE INDEPENDENT MEMBERS
The meeting agreed that observer
status would be accorded to the group of three Independent Members and Mr
Denis Watson was duly admitted as their representative on this occasion.
3. LETTER FROM SECRETARY
OF STATE
It was agreed that the letter
from the Secretary of State's Private Secretary of 17 August 1998 be examined
in detail at the next meeting of the Committee.
4. CONSIDERATION OF STANDING
ORDERS
The Committee proceeded to
consider the paper under cover of the minute of 10 August 1998 from Mr Carson.
Mr Ervine joined the meeting.
Rule No 2(2) Designation
of Identity
Agreed: That the Committee
would return to the issue of the 'Other' designation at a later date.
Mr Murphy, Ms Morrice and
Mr McGrady joined the meeting.
Rule No 2(4) Change
of Designation
Agreed: The Committee would
revisit the issue in the future.
Rules 9, 10, 11
Agreed: That these be addressed
later.
Rule 12(2)(a-c)
Agreed: That the Second Clerk
would come back with advice.
Rule 12(5)
Agreed: That the Committee
would discuss this Rule at a later stage.
Rule 13
Agreed: To discuss later.
Rule 14
Mr Barnes reported that the
Scottish and Welsh Assemblies had not yet addressed the issues raised in
this Standing Order.
Agreed: That the Order of
Business be revisited again.
Other Rules
Agreed: All other rules
in the document of 10 August are accepted without amendment.
5. FORMS OF ADDRESS
OF MEMBERS
There was a general discussion
on the forms of address for Members both in relation to how they address
each other and how others address them.
Agreed: That this issue
be revisited again.
6. LETTER FROM PRESBYTERIAN
CHURCH - OPENING MEETING WITH PRAYERS
A letter from Dr John Dunlop
Co-convenor of the Church and Government Committee of the PCI was circulated
to Members.
Agreed: That the contents
be reflected upon and dealt with at the next meeting.
7. ANY OTHER BUSINESS
7.1 Minutes of Proceedings
It was agreed that a copy of
the minutes of proceedings be deposited in the Library.
7.2 Date, Time and
Venue of Next Meeting
Agreed: That the next meeting
should take place on Tuesday 1 September 1998 at 10.30 am in Room 144,
Parliament Buildings.
7.3 Adjournment
The meeting
was closed 11.50 am.
MURRAY BARNES
Second Clerk (Business)
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Monday 1 September
1998 at 10.30 am
in Room 144,
Parliament Buildings
PRESENT: Mr P
Weir
Mr D S Dalton
Mr F Cobain
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Mr E McGrady MP
Mr N Dodds
Mr G Campbell
Mr J Wells (representing
Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP)
Mr F Molloy
Mr J Kelly
Mr S Close
Mr R McCartney QC MP
Ms J Morrice
Mr D Ervine
Mr E O'Neill (representing
Mrs B Rodgers)
OBSERVERS: Mr
D Watson
Mr N Boyd
IN THE CHAIR: Mr
D Haughey
IN ATTENDANCE: Mr
M Barnes and Mr D Arnold
1. ROLL CALL
The Chairman marked Members
present, noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance
with the agreement on this issue.
2. It was agreed
on a proposal from the Chairman that the meeting would be devoted to the
urgent business of dealing with a response to the letter of 17 August from
the PS to the Secretary of State.
The Draft Additional
Standing Orders (draft of 5 August) were annexed to the letter of
17 August and were dealt with by the Committee in order.
A2(b)
Mr McCartney proposed
that paragraph A2(b) should be amended to read:
"in relation to any
other group declaring itself to be a political party within the Assembly,
means the person who appears to the Presiding Officer to be the leader of
the group, or an officer nominated by that person for the purposes of the
Standing Orders."
The proposal was seconded
by Ms Morrice.
A vote was taken on the
proposed amendment. This showed seven members to be in favour and three
again.
Arguments made in support
of the amendment are briefly summarised as follows:-
- political party is undefined;
- some parties may decide to
form a coalition;
- the discretion given to the
Presiding Officer at 2b is limited to deciding who the leader of the party
is;
- there needs to be greater
clarification of the draft.
Arguments used against the amendment
were:
- the amendment might lead
to possible abuse;
- common usage of language
might suggest that the amendment is unnecessary;
- this is a question for parties
themselves.
B(2)
Mr McCartney proposed that B(2)
should be amended to read:
"A proposal under paragraph
(1) above or any amended proposal shall not have effect unless it is approved
by a resolution of the Assembly passed with cross-community support."
Mr Dodds pointed out in relation
to this draft that Rule 12 of the Initial Standing Orders would need to
be changed to reflect the cross-community requirement.
A vote was taken on the proposed
amendment. This showed 10 members to be in favour and 6 against.
Arguments deployed in support
of the amendment are briefly summarised as follows:
- it is always better in these
circumstances to substitute certainty for doubt;
- the amendment is in keeping
with the relevant Clause of the Northern Ireland Bill;
- amendment does not substantially
alter the proposed Rule;
- without the amendment we
would be left with a situation akin to the present Orders in Council where
you vote for or against an unalterable package;
- no cogent argument has been
deployed within the committee against the amendment;
- it is important that there
is some accountability of the First and Deputy First Ministers to the
Assembly;
- it is crucial that the system
is perceived as democratic;
- consultations of the First
and Deputy First Ministers with parties is only a formality.
Arguments used against the amendment
were:
- First Minister and Deputy
First Minister would almost certainly take into account option to the
Assembly;
- Bill already makes position
clear;
- the democratic aspect has
been taken care of in the referendum and elections;
- First and Deputy First Ministers
hold their positions because they have the confidence of both communities.
Each will have consulted within his own party.
B8 and B9
Mr McCartney and Mr Molloy proposed
amendments to Rules B8 and B9, the amended rules to read as follows:
B8 - "If
a person nominated under paragraph (5) or this paragraph does not take up
the Ministerial office (designate) within 5 minutes (except in circumstances
where the member is unavoidably absent for reasons
B9 - "If a nominating
officer does not exercise the power conferred by paragraph (5) or (8) within
5 minutes, except in circumstances outlined in paragraph (8) above, the
power conferred by paragraph (5) shall become exercisable by the nominating
officer of the political party for which the formula in paragraph (11) gives
the next highest figure."
The principles in these redrafted
rules may also be applicable elsewhere (eg C(5)).
B(16)
Mr McCartney proposed that Rule
B(16) be amended to read as follows:
B(16) - "Where
a Ministerial office (designate) is vacant, the vacancy shall be filled
by applying paragraphs (5) to (13), as appropriate, within 10 days."
C(3)
Mr Campbell and Mr McCartney
proposed that Rule C(3), where "C" is defined, be amended to read
as follows:
C(3) - "….
"C" is the number (if any) of Chairs and Deputy Chairs of Committees
established under this Standing Order which are held by members of that
party."
This applies by extension also
to other paragraphs where there is reference to Chairman and Deputy Chairman.
In this case 'or' has been taken as conjunctive and replaced with 'and'.
D(1)
The Committee agreed that a
further draft Additional Standing Order be added as D(2) to read:
"(2) If after the
relevant period of exclusion set out in (1) the person excluded is re-nominated
for Ministerial office by his party he/she shall not take up office until
he/she has made the affirmation required in draft Additional Standing Order
B(13)."
Re-numbering of the remaining
draft Additional Standing Orders in this Section will be required because
of this addition.
D(5)
Mr Weir wanted it brought to
the Secretary of State's attention that Rule D(5) was not written in accordance
with the Bill which had three provisions (not two as in this rule).
First/Deputy First Ministerial
Vacancies
Mr Farren wanted it drawn to
the Secretary of State's attention that there appears to be no provision
for dealing with any hiatus brought about by a vacancy arising for any reason
in the positions of First Minister and Deputy First Minister.
The Committee was content with
all of the above proposals.
3. OTHER RULES
The Committee was content
with all of the remaining rules (ie those not cited above) in the draft
of the Secretary of State's PS.
4. DATE, TIME AND VENUE
OF NEXT MEETING
Agreed: That the next meeting
should take place on Tuesday 8 September 1998 at 10.30 am in Room 144,
Parliament Buildings.
- ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was closed at
1.00 pm.
MURRAY BARNES
Second Clerk (Business)
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Monday 8 September
1998 at 10.30 am
in Room 144 Parliament
Buildings
Present: Mr
P Weir
Mr D S Dalton
Mr McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Mr N Dodds
Mr G Campbell
Rev Dr I Paisley MP
MEP
Mr C Murphy
Mr F Molloy
Mr J Kelly
Mr S Close
Mr R McCartney QC MP
Ms J Morrice
Mr D Ervine
Mrs B Rodgers
Mr D Haughey
Observers: Mr
D Watson
Mr N Boyd
In the Chair: Mr
F Cobain
In Attendance: Mr
M Barnes and Mr D Arnold
ROLL CALL
The Chairman marked Members
present noting those who were acting as observers in accordance with the
agreement on this issue. There were no substitutes on this occasion.
MINUTES
The minutes of the 1 September
1998 were accepted and agreed.
COMMITTEE RESPONSE TO MINISTER
OF STATE ON ADDITIONAL STANDING ORDERS
Members went through
the draft documents prepared for the Minister of State in relation to additional
Standing Orders paragraph by paragraph and the following changes were made:
- Covering letter to be amended
to include reference to Standing Orders arising from amendments to the
Northern Ireland Bill.
- Two references to "cross
party" on page 1 of the response to read "cross community"
Resolved - That the report
as drafted and amended by the Committee by the draft report of the Committee,
and that the draft report should be submitted to the Assembly on 14 September
1998.
- That various documents, including
the Minutes of Proceedings of the meeting held on 8 September, be attached
to the draft report as annexes.
VOTING IN COMMITTEE
It was agreed that votes taken
in this Committee will be recorded by party.
PRAYERS LETTER FROM PRESBYTERIAN
CHURCH
Following the letter from the Presbyterian
Church the question of prayers in the Assembly was considered. It was agreed
that, as for the Forum, prayers should consist of two minutes silent prayer
or reflection.
SITTINGS AND ADJOURNMENTS
Members expressed a variety of
views on sittings and adjournments but no decisions were taken at this stage.
MODE OF ADDRESS AND DESIGNATION
OF MEMBERS
It was considered that the following
formula "Assembly Member Jones, North Belfast" merited further
consideration.
It was agreed that this issue including
the question of Designation of Members would be revisited in the future.
MODERNISATION COMMITTEE
It was agreed that it would be
helpful for the Committee to obtain documents issued by the Modernisation
Committee at Westminster.
COMMITTEE OFFICIALS
Following explanation from the
acting clerk (Mr Barnes) it was formally agreed that the Committee officials
would be Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold.
DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT
MEETINGS
Agreed: That the next meeting
should take place on Wednesday, 16 September at 10.30 am in Room 144, Parliament
Buildings and that there would be two meetings in the following week.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting
was closed at 12 noon.
MURRAY BARNES
Second Clerk (Business)
Amendment
The following
amendment should be made to the minutes of 1 September 1998.
Page 2 under B(2) 2nd
paragraph to read
"Mr Dodds pointed out in relation
to this draft that Rule 12 of the Initial Standing Orders only required cross-community
support for decisions under Rule 12(2)."
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday 16
September 1998 at 10.30 am
in Room 144,
Parliament Buildings
PRESENT: Dr E
Birnie
Mr D S Dalton
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr P Lewsley
Mr J Wells
Mr S Wilson
Mr P Berry
Mr F Molloy
Mr J Kelly
Mr D Ford
Mr R McCartney QC MP
Ms J Morrice
Mr D Ervine
Mrs B Rodgers)
Mr E O'Neill
OBSERVERS: Mr
D Watson
IN THE CHAIR: Mr
F Cobain
IN ATTENDANCE: Mr
M Barnes and Mr D Arnold
ROLL CALL
The Chairman marked Members
present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance
with the agreement on this issue.
MINUTES
The minutes of the previous meeting
were agreed.
MEETING OF JOINT CHAIRMEN
WITH PRESIDING OFFICER
Mr Cobain reported on the meeting
on 8 September between the Co-chairs and the Presiding Officer. There was
a need to maintain and if possible increase the momentum in formulating Standing
Orders and it was hoped that it might be possible to complete the task in
5 to 6 weeks. It would henceforth be the Committee's aim to meet twice weekly.
Mobile Phones
Mr McCartney advised
that it was the rule that mobile telephones had to be switched off within
the Palace of Westminster and that it would be appropriate to apply the same
practice here.
Plenary Sessions
There was some discussion on the
extent and nature of plenary sessions and it was agreed that officials would
draw up a draft paper.
Formation of New Party
It was agreed that
the Committee Chair would write to the Minister of State seeking a change
of Standing Orders that would allow maximum Committee membership to be increased
by one to facilitate representation of the new party which will be formally
recognised within the Assembly from 21 September. This measure has been taken
in order to deal expeditiously with the issue. It was clear that the question
of Committee membership would have to be revisited again in the near future.
Examination of 1973 Assembly
Standing Orders
The Committee considered possible
Standing Orders under the 'More Complex' heading. It was agreed that officials
would do some preliminary drafts on some areas including Closure of Debates
and Committees. It was agreed to accept the following 1973 Assembly Rules:
·10 (Earlier Meetings of Assembly)
changing 26 members to 30 members
·19 (Statements) change 19(2)
to read "Notice of statements shall be given to the Presiding Officer
not less than 2½ hours before they are due to be made."
Change 'half an hour' in 19(3)
to '1½ hours' and change 'five minutes' to 'ten minutes'.
·43 (Public Accounts
Committee) replacing `eight' with 'eleven' and 'five' with 'six'.
The Committee considered the possible
Standing Orders under the 'Likely to Pose Some Difficulty' heading.
It was agreed that officials would
provide some guidance on the meaning of private business.
It was agreed to accept the following
1973 Assembly Rules:
·17 (Questions) Accept
the Rule but strengthen to ensure that for the purposes of scrutiny questions
must be answered as clearly as possible.
·18 (Private Notice Questions)
18(2)
After 'Executive concerned'
replace existing wording with 'not less than 2½ hours before they are due
to be asked.'
It was agreed that the issue
of Change of Designation would be dealt with as a priority at the next meeting.
DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT
MEETINGS
Agreed: That the
next meetings should take place on Wednesday 23 September and Friday 25 September
to be held at 2.00 pm on each of the days in Room 144 Parliament Buildings.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was closed at 12
noon.
MURRAY BARNES
Second Clerk (Business)
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 23
September 1998 at 2.00 pm
in Room 144,
Parliament Buildings
Present: Mr
F Cobain
Mr P Weir
Mr D S Dalton
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Rev Dr I Paisley, MP, MEP
Mr G Campbell
Mr N Dodds
Mr C Murphy
Mr J Kelly
Mr S Close
Mr R McCartney, QC, MP
Ms J Morrice
Mr D Ervine
Mrs B Rodgers
Mr E O'Neill (substituting
from Mr McGrady)
Observer: Mr D Watson
Mr N Boyd
In the Chair: Mr D Haughey
In attendance: Mr M Barnes
and Mr D Arnold
ROLL CALL
The Chairman marked Members present
noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with
the agreement on these issues.
MINUTES
The minutes of the previous meeting
were agreed.
CHANGE OF DESIGNATION
As it Relates to Tradition (ie
Nationalist, Unionist etc)
There was a lengthy discussion
on the above, culminating with a formal proposal of the following rule by
Mr Weir, seconded by Mr Farren it was agreed unanimously:
"Provision should be made
for members to change Designation on no more than one occasion during the
lifetime of an Assembly upon notice to the Presiding Officer of at least
30 days."
As it Relates to Party
This issue was aired in considerable
detail and following the discussion officials were asked to draft a form
of words that would reflect the agreement that the Committee had reached
on the matter. These would be amended as necessary, and be formally proposed
at the next meeting. The draft is attached to these minutes.
ORIGIN OF CHANGE OF DESIGNATION
CONCEPT
Officials were asked to inquire
as to the origins and purpose of the original draft on change of designation
(ie para 2(4) of Annex A of Interim Report).
APPROACH TO MINISTER OF STATE
It was agreed that the co-chairs
would be empowered to contact the Minister to bring him up to date with developments
in Committee following the issuing of Mr Cobain's letter of 17 September.
DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT
MEETING
Agreed: That the next meeting
should take place at 2.00 pm on Friday 25 September in Room 144, Parliament
Buildings.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was closed at 4.00
pm.
DENIS ARNOLD
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Friday 25 September
1998 at 2.00 pm
in Room 144 Parliament
Buildings
Present: Mr
P Weir
Dr E Birnie (substituting
for Mr S Dalton)
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Mr S Wilson (substituting
for Dr Paisley)
Mr G Campbell
Mr N Dodds
Mr C Murphy
Mr J Kelly
Mr F Molloy
Mr S Close
Mr R McCartney QC MP
Ms J Morrice
Mrs B Rodgers
Mr A Maginness (substituting
for Mr McGrady)
Observers: Mr
D Watson
Mr N Boyd
In the Chair: Mr
Haughey to deal with Agenda item 3 and related matters
Mr Cobain for other
Agenda items
In Attendance: Mr
M Barnes and Mr D Arnold
ROLL CALL
The Chairman (Mr Haughey) marked
Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers
in accordance with the agreement on these matters.
AGENDA ITEM 3
The following draft rules were
agreed:
- Allocation of certain Positions/Posts
Under d'Hondt
The d'Hondt procedure as
it relates to the allocation of
- Seats on the Executive Committee
(ii) Committee Chairmanship
(iii) Committee Deputy
Chairmanships, will be applied on the basis of party numerical strengths
upon the outcome of the Assembly General Election.
(ii) Change of Designation
Members may change designation
on no more than on occasion during the lifetime of an Assembly upon notice
to the Presiding Officer of at least 30 days.
RULE 15(2)
There was some discussion on
the potential problems posed by Rule 15(2) as it stands. Whilst there was
a view that the Committee maximum size should be 18 the prevailing position
was that the Committee had already decided that it should be 19 and had
written to the Minister on this basis. For the same reasons the CAPO membership
should also rise (in this case to 17).
It was agreed that Committee size
and composition was something to be considered in the future but it was the
general expectation that the make-up of Committees would be arrived at on
a proportionate basis following consultation between party leaders/whips
and the Presiding Officer.
Mr Cobain took the Chair for the
remainder of the meeting.
MINUTES
The minutes of the previous
meeting were agreed.
SITTINGS OF THE ASSEMBLY
Members considered
a draft Standing Order on sittings of the Assembly. The following indicative
timetable was agreed:
Monday: Committee Business 11.00
am - 12.30 pm
Questions 2.30 pm -
4.00 pm
Government Business 4.00
pm - 6.00 pm
Tuesday: Government Business 10.30
am - 12.30 pm
Private Members Business 2.00
pm - 3.00 pm
Adjournment Debate 3.00
pm - 6.00 pm
Draft rules will be amended where
unnecessary to take the above into account.
OTHER RULES
Members continued to examine rules
within the Likely to Pose Some Difficulty category.
- Division (Rule 35)
It was agreed to adopt this rule as it stands for the present. It may be
possible in the future to look at the possibility of electronic voting. Officials
were requested to investigate the options.
- Order in the Assembly
(Rule 40A) the rule was adopted with the period of exclusion amended
to 10 sitting days.
- Committee of Selection
(Rule 42) This rule related to C11 of the Additional Initial Standing
Order. It was agreed that C11 should be extended to apply to all (not just
statutory) Committees and amended to reflect the need for consultation between
party leaders and the Presiding Officer in the selection of member for Committee
service.
- Privilege (Rule 46)
The rule should stand except that the Committee size should be 9 with a Quorum
of 7 and the reference to the 11.30 am deadline should change to "two
hours prior to commencement of business".
ANNEX A
The Committee had at earlier
meetings deferred business it wished to return to. This had been summarised
with Annex A of its Interim Report to the Secretary of State. Annex A was
examined and the following decisions were arrived at unanimously by those
present:
- Affiliation: Members
may show off their affiliation as Nationalist, Unionist or Other.
- Language: The issue
of languages to be used in the Assembly will be dealt with separately and
specifically by the Committee at a future meeting.
- Members Interest:
Include the list of 100 items in the extracts from Erskine May (provided
by Officials) as a schedule to this rule.
OTHER ISSUES
Officials will prepare papers on
some outstanding issues to be taken at the next meeting.
DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT
MEETINGS
Agreed: That the next meeting
should take place at 2.00 pm on Wednesday 30 September in Room 144 Parliament
Buildings.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was closed at 4.10
pm.
DENIS ARNOLD
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday 7 October
1998 at 2.00 pm
in Room 144 Parliament
Buildings
Present: Mr
P Weir
Mr S Dalton
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Mr S Wilson
(substituting for Dr Paisley)
Mr G Campbell
Mr N Dodds
Mr C Murphy
Mr J Kelly
Mr S Close
Mr R McCartney
QC MP
Ms J Morrice
Mrs B Rodgers
Mr E O'Neill
Mr D Watson
Observer: Mr
N Boyd
In the Chair: Mr
Haughey
In attendance: Mr
M Barnes and Mr D Arnold
Apologies: Mr
Cobain
ROLL CALL
The Chairman (Mr Haughey) marked
Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers
in accordance with the agreement on these matters.
UUAP
Mr Watson was welcomed on to
the Committee as a full participating member representing the UUAP.
MINUTES
The minutes of 25 September
1998 were agreed.
MATTERS ARISING
Mr Dodds reminded the Committee
of the need to include the agreed rule change relating to D'Hondt and Designation
(see minutes of 25 September 1998) in the final compendium of Standing Orders.
ADDITIONAL INITIAL STANDING
ORDERS
Mr Dodds asked whether there
had been a response to the letter from the Joint Chairmen from the Secretary
of State. Officials to pursue.
ERSKINE MAY
Mr McCartney requested that
members should have more ready access to Erskine May. They reported
that copies are available in the Library, Hansard Room (R249), Business
Office (R26) and the Speakers Office.
GENDER PROOFING
Ms Morrice reminded the Committee
of the importance of gender proofing final drafts.
SCHEDULE OF WORK
The Chairman outlined a proposed
timetable of work that the Committee would need to get through if we were
to be in a position to report to the Assembly, as tasked, on 26 October
1998. Clearly it was not going to be possible to make a final report because
of "Bill" implications. The Bill is subject to heavy amendment
and will not become law until late November.
EXAMINATION OF STANDING ORDERS
(AGENDA ITEM 2)
Members examined draft Standing
Orders prepared by officials in the paper dated 2 October 1998. The
following decisions were made:
- Earlier Meetings
of Assembly
Paragraph (2) after First
Minister add "and Deputy First Minister".
- Statements
Paragraph (2) add "and
the Speaker shall communicate that information to the Whips as early as
is practicable".
- Public Accounts Committee
Provisionally agreed, but
officials to advise further on the usage and meaning of the word "select".
There will essentially be three types of Committee in the Assembly, statutory.
Ad hoc and what is understood to fall into the category of "select".
Add (4) each party with
a membership between 2 and 15 shall have one member on the Committee. Parties
with a membership in excess of 15 shall have two members on the Committee.
- Questions
Paragraph (8) change 'two
days' to 'one day'.
Otherwise agreed but Mr
McCartney was concerned that, as at Westminster, the question procedure
could be abused, for example through the practice of asking planted questions.
The Committee recognised the dangers of this but it was felt that it would
be difficult to frame a rule that could effectively eliminate the practice.
- Private Notice Questions
Paragraph (2) add "and
the Speaker shall communicate that information to the Whips as early as
is practicable".
- CAPO
Mr Dodds asked that a means
be found such as notice boards to communicate questions to members. Mr McCartney
advised members that at Westminster such details are transmitted electronically
to TV monitors in MPs rooms. It was agreed however that this was a matter
for CAPO. A copy of these minutes will go to the clerk of that Committee
and as a matter of course they will also be copied to the Initial Presiding
Officer.
- Sitting and Adjournments
of Assembly
Agreed.
- Closure of Debate
Paragraph (2) after debate
replace wording with "on an issue, the resolution of which requires
cross-community support under this Standing Order the question shall not
be carried unless at least 30 members have voted in support of it".
- Business Committee
Paragraph (2): after party
insert "with at least two members"
Paragraph (4): change three
to two and insert after members "of the
Committee".
There was some debate over
whether it was feasible for the Deputy Speakers to act as Deputy Chairperson
in the Business Committee but it was felt that in order to do so they would
have to be ex-officio members. The conclusion was that there was advantage
in drawing the deputies from the Committees regular membership.
- General Election (Note)
Agreed.
- Prayers
Members were anxious that the
exclusion from prayers of the public should be included in Standing Orders.
This is to be done by means of adding a clause to the rule on Visitors.
- Private Business
Agreed.
- Adjournment Debates
Members were unclear
as to the effects of the short period of notice envisaged in paragraph (2).
Officials to consider implications. It was agreed that party leaders
will not be excluded from Adjournment Debates. It would clearly be
a nonsense within the unique structure of the Assembly to do so.
It was further agreed that
Committee Officials would write to the Whips on the question of running orders
of speakers in debate. It was felt that there should be a speaker from each
party in the first instance and after this means may be found to allocate
time fairly to secondary speakers.
- Public Business
Agreed.
- Rule Against Speaking
Twice
Defer until next meeting.
- Seconders
Agreed, but add after Speaker
"for the election of First Minster or the election of Deputy First Minster".
- Amendments
Agreed.
- Anticipation
Agreed.
- Matters Awaiting Judicial
Decisions
Agreed.
- Presentation of Papers
and Accounts
Agreed.
- Public Bills
Consideration deferred until
Bill becomes law.
- Reconsideration of a
Bill
Consideration deferred until
Bill becomes law.
- Visitors
Add new clause (3) "Visitors
will only be admitted to the public gallery after Prayers".
- Referral of Bills to
NIHRC
Consideration deferred until
Bill becomes law.
- Conformity with Equality
Requirements
Consideration deferred until
Bill becomes law.
- Financial Acts and Estimates
Consideration deferred until
Bill becomes law.
- Delaying Motions
Agreed.
LANGUAGES
The Committee agreed, on a proposal
of Mr Dodds, that the issue of languages be returned to at the next meeting.
A vote was taken with the following result.
For
Against
Mr Dodds )
Mr Campbell ) DUP Mr
Murphy, Sinn Fein
Mr Wilson )
Ms Rodgers )
Mr O'Neill ) SDLP
Mr Farren )
Mr McCartney ) UKUP
Mr Dalton )
Mr Weir ) UUP
Mr Close Alliance
The motion was carried.
D'HONDT
The Committee additionally considered
some possible implications of the D'Hondt mechanism as it applies to the
New Assembly. It was agreed that these matters, including Agenda item 3 in
minutes of 25 September, should be returned to at a later date.
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Friday 9 October
1998 at 2.00 pm
in Room 144,
Parliament Buildings
PRESENT: Mr P
Weir
Mr S Dalton
Dr E Birnie (substituting
for Mr McGimpsey)
Mr A Maginness (substituting
for Mr S Farren)
Mr S Wilson (substituting
for Dr Paisley)
Mr G Campbell
Mr N Dodds
Mr C Murphy
Mr J Kelly
Mr F Molloy
Mr S Close
Mr R McCartney QC MP
Ms J Morrice
Mrs B Rodgers
Mr E O'Neill (substituting
for Mr E McGrady)
IN THE CHAIR: Mr
Haughey
IN ATTENDANCE: Mr
M Barnes and Mr D Arnold
APOLOGIES: Mr
Cobain, Mr Watson
ROLL CALL
The Chairman (Mr Haughey) marked
Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers
in accordance with the agreement on this issue.
MINUTES
The minutes of 7 October 1998
were agreed.
DESIGNATORY LETTERS
Members considered a number
of options for designatory letters. Once again after considerable discussion
consensus could not be achieved. A straw poll showed that -
5 members favoured MPA (Member
of the Parliamentary Assembly);
4 members favoured AM (Assembly
Member); and
2 members favoured MLA (Member
of the Legislative Assembly)
The matter has been left in
abeyance for the time being. The Chairman will acquaint the Secretary of
State of the flavour of the discussion.
MODE OF ADDRESS
Two options were discussed as
to how Members might address each other in the Assembly Chamber. They were
simply "Mr/Ms/Dr etc Bloggs" or "Mr/Ms/Dr etc Bloggs, the
Members for", followed by the Westminster Constituency, eg South Belfast.
The second approach allows for precision through standardisation of form:
the first may in certain circumstances require the Member to identify which
Bloggs he/she is referring to.
Further consideration of this
matter was deferred.
PAPERS OF 7/10
Members considered the paper
of 7 October prepared by officials.
Speeches
Add to paragraph 4 after below
"except at the discretion of the Speaker after consultation with the
Business Committee."
Sharing of Speaking Time
Ms Morrice suggested that two
Members be allowed, by mutual agreement, to share on individual's allocation
of speaking time. This was supported by Mr Molloy. When a straw poll
was taken all present (other than Ms Morrice) including Mr Molloy, opposed
the proposal. The motion was lost.
Business of the Assembly
An abbreviated rule on business
of the Assembly was considered but it was decided to stick with the more
detailed and specific options agreed at earlier meetings.
Committees
Elements of draft rules on Committees
were agreed.
LANGUAGE
The Committee continued its
discussion on the draft Standing Order on Language. The matter was thoroughly
aired, but no alternative to the original draft could be agreed.
The main points that were made
were as follows:
In support of the draft:
- all Assembly Members can
speak and communicate in English. This is not the case for other languages;
- the fact that the discussion
on the language question was conducted in English illustrated that this
is the accepted medium of communication. The introduction of other languages
is for purposes other than communication;
- the language issue here was
not comparable to the situation in Europe where 11 national languages
are accorded official recognition. Irish is not amongst them;
- matters could snowball and
we could end up dealing with demands for translation facilities for many
languages (some Members are multi-lingual).
- the use of a minority language
was a form of self-imposed discrimination since it encroached on the total
amount of speaking time available to Members.
In opposition to the draft:
- English is not necessarily
everyone's first language;
- Account must be taken of
linguistic diversity. This is a provision of the Agreement;
- Irish speakers should not
suffer a time penalty in exercising their prerogative;
- EU institutions provide simultaneous
translation facilities;
- It has been the practice
at some party conferences here to provide simultaneous translations facilities,
some also offer a translation service for the deaf.
Some Members considered that
in attempting to deal with the language question it was, at the same time,
advisable to examine the practicalities of providing simultaneous translation
facilities for the two indigenous languages (Irish and Ulster Scots). It
was also important that decisions were made on the basis of broad principles
and not taken piecemeal.
It was decided that the Chairman
would discuss the matter with the Presiding Officer, in the latter's capacity
as Chairman of CAPO, and report back to the Committee.
Committees of the Assembly
Rule agreed but at (4) remove
"The minutes" and replace with "A general record", and
at (5) last line replace "in any report" with "the general
record of proceedings".
Roles of Statutory Committees
Agreed. No other part of the
paper was considered.
PAPER ON INITIAL STANDING ORDERS
Members considered a paper
on the Initial Standing Orders and the following was agreed.
Rule 1 Introduction
Redundant
Rule 2 General Rule
Accept paras 1 and 3. Dispense
with para 3.
Rule 3 Taking Seats
The Committee has already
addressed aspects of this rule (designation issue, etc); the rules should
now be merged.
Rule 4 Quorum
Already agreed, Interim Report.
Rule 5 Sittings
Comparable rule agreed 7 October.
Rule 6 Business
Agreement on related issues
on 2 and 7 October.
Rule 7 Minutes
Area covered under Office of Clerk
etc in Interim Report.
Rule 8 Speeches
Addressed earlier in these minutes.
Rule 9 Amendments
Agreed 7 October.
Rule 10 Order
Agreed 25 September.
Rule 11 Closure
Agreed 7 October.
Rule 12 Voting (see also
rule on Divisions Agreed 25 September)
Rule agreed in general terms
but amend paragraph 7, tenth line as follows: After order delete "to
declare Aye or No" and replace with "to indicate assent or dissent".
Also add clause 2(c) to cover votes on expenditure/budgets etc.
Rule 13 Election of Speaker
Agreed (Interim Report)
Rule 14 Election of First Minister
and Deputy First Minister
Agreed.
Rule 15 Committees
Some elements on Committee agreed
in relation to another document prepared by officials.
Rule 16 CAPO
Dealt with under Business Committee
and agreed on 7 October.
Rule 17 Visitors
Agreed 7 October.
Rule 18 News Media
Add new paragraph (6). "Chairpersons
of Committees shall in relation to the news media, exercise the same powers
as the Speaker within those places or precincts of the Assembly that are
from time to time assigned to their use for the purposes of Committee business".
Rule 19 Symbols Emblems and
Flags
There was a lengthy discussion
on the above issue. Points made and questions posed were:
- no flags should be flown
on the Assembly Building;
- if the above were to be agreed
would this also apply to flags of various traditions within the Building?
- Northern Ireland was part
of the UK and while this remained the case the Union flag should be flown;
- how can political emblems
be defined?
There were difficulties in this
area and it was agreed that the discussion could be left for future consideration.
NOMINEES
Arising from consideration of
Initial Standing Orders, a number of Member raised concerned with Nominee
lists. For example:
What happens when lists
are exhausted?
Should the Nominating Officer
of Registered Parties be able to nominate?
What if the nominee defects
to another party?
It was agreed that the Chairman
would approach the Secretary of State to see what thought has been given
to these issues.
LETTER FROM MINISTER OF
STATE TO JOINT CHAIRMEN
Mr Dodds referred to Mr Murphy's
response to the Chairmen on Additional Initial Standing Orders and said
that this should be something we should return to at an appropriate time.
DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT
MEETING
Agreed: That the next meeting
should take place at 2.00 pm on Wednesday 14 October in Room 144, Parliament
Buildings.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was closed at 4.20
pm.
DENIS ARNOLD
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday 14
October 1998 at 2.00 pm
in Room 106 Parliament
Buildings
Present: Mr
P Weir
Mr S Dalton
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Mr S Wilson (substituting
for Dr Paisley)
Mr G Campbell
Mr N Dodds
Mr C Murphy
Mr J Kelly
Mr S Close
Mr R McCartney QC MP
Mr D Haughey
Mrs B Rodgers
Mr E O'Neill (substituting
for Mr E McGrady)
Mr D Watson
In the Chair: Mr
Cobain
In Attendance: Mr
M Barnes and Mr D Arnold
ROLL CALL
The Chairman marked Members
present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance
with the agreement on these matters.
MINUTES
The minutes of 9 October 1998 were
amended to reflect the following:
Mr Haughey clarified for the record
that in relation to the Language question, Irish is an 'official' language
within the EU but not a "working" language, ie interpretation is
not provided.
Mr Haughey pointed out that with
regard to the straw poll on the sharing of speaking tiem, Ms Morrice made
a formal proposal and Mr Molloy formally seconded this as a means of testing
reaction to the idea.
It was agreed that the straw poll
of 9/10 on Designatory letters should read:
MPA - 5
AM - 4
MLA - 3
CHAIRMAN'S REPORT
Mr Haughey reported on a number
of matters arising from discussion at the last meeting.
Language
A letter from Lord
Alderdice to Mr Haughey (13 October 1998) on the matter was circulated. The
position was that at present there was little that could be done but if it
was the Assembly's view that translation services were desirable the administration
would look favourably on it. The Shadow Commission is likely to be involved
in an affirmative decision is taken, but in terms of physical work there
are probably no major requirements. No wiring would be needed since signals
could be carried on infra-red beams. There would also be a requirement for
perhaps two interpreters.
Designatory Letters
The Minister had indicated
that in his view the Designatory Letters which attracted the least number
of objections were MLA. Mr Molloy stated that his party had not, as
far as he was aware, been consulted on the matter.
Substitutions
The Minister welcomed the Committee's
comments on substitutes/nominees and particularly on the suggested role of
Nominated Officers. These views will be considered in the drafting of the
Registration of Parties Bill.
Rule Amendment
Mr Haughey referring
to a letter from the Initial Presiding Officer suggested a strengthening
of Standing Orders in relation to behaviour. He indicated that there was
a need to go further than Erskine May and suggested the use of the additional
wording "or personal or otherwise objectionable remarks".
There was some discussion of
the above points and it was agreed that these issues would be best left to
another day. In the meantime the Joint Chairman was asked to prepare a written
synopsis of his oral report. The issues in it could then be taken as an agenda
item once Members had had the opportunity to read and consider them.
CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT
The Report was brought up and
read. The Report was read a second time paragraph by paragraph.
Background
Paragraphs 1 to 8 read
and agreed
Approach
Paragraph 9, read and
amended
Additional Standing Orders
Paragraph 10 read and
agreed
Paragraph 11 read and amended
Paragraph 12 read and agreed
This Report
Paragraph 13 read and
amended
Paragraph 14 and Appreciation
read and agreed.
ANNEX A
Coverage read and agreed:
Rule 1 read and agreed
Rule 2 read and amended
Rule 3 read and agreed
Rule 4 read and amended
Rule 5 read and agreed
Rule 6 read and amended
Rule 7-11 read and agreed
Rule 12 read and amended
Rule 13-17 read and agreed
Rule 18 read and amended
Rule 19 read and amended
Rule 20-27 read and agreed
Rule 28 read and amended
Rule 29-32 read and agreed
Rule 33 read and amended
Rule 34-38 read and agreed
The written comments of
a Westminster official on some of the draft rules were also considered. It
was agreed that the draft would be amended for consideration again on 16
October.
DEBATE OF 26 OCTOBER
The Committee's position on
how the report should be treated on 26 October was settled and it was agreed
that this would be communicated to the Presiding Officer by the Joint Chairmen.
LANGUAGE
It was agreed for the record
that people should be allowed to speak in the language of their choice.
RULES IN RESPECT OF SPEAKER
Mr Close pointed out that the
Bill provided for an outgoing Speaker to preside over the initial meeting
of a new Assembly. This clarified matters and assisted the Committee in
its consideration of drafts.
MEMBERS' INTERESTS
Mr McCartney asked officials
for clarification of the meaning of "substantial" in the schedule
(Item 8) to the rule on Members' Interests.
DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT
MEETING
Agreed that the next meeting
should take place at 2.00 pm on Friday 16 October in Room 21, Parliament
Buildings.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was closed at 4.30
pm.
DENIS ARNOLD
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Friday 16 October
1998 at 2.00 pm
in Room 21, Parliament
Buildings
Present: Mr
D S Dalton
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Mr G Campbell
Mr N Dodds
Mr J Kelly
Mr F Molloy
Mr S Close
Mr R McCartney QC MP
Mr Cobain
Mrs J Morrice
In the Chair: Mr D Haughey
In attendance: Mr M Barnes
and Mr D Arnold
CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT
The Committee addressed the
amendments to the Report which had been discussed at the previous meeting.
Paragraphs 9, 11 and 13 read
and agreed
Rule 2 read and agreed
Rules 4 and 6 read, amended
and agreed
Rules 12, 18, 19 read and agreed
Rule 28 read, amended and agreed
Rule 33 read and agreed
Resolved: that the Report
as amended be the Progress Report of the Committee to the Assembly.
Ordered: that the Joint
Chairmen do make the Report to the Assembly on 26 October 1998;
that several papers be appended
to the Report.
D ARNOLD
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Tuesday 27 January
1999 at 2.00 pm
In Room 21 Parliament
Buildings
Present: Mr F Cobain
Mr M McGimpsey
Mr S Farren
Mr S Wilson (substituting
for Dr Paisley)
Mr G Campbell
Mr M Robinson (substituting
for Mr N Dodds)
Mr C Murphy
Mr F Molloy
Mr D Ervine
Mr D Ford (substituting
for Mrs S Close)
Ms J Morrice
Mrs B Rodgers
Mr D Watson
In the Chair: Mr
D Haughey
In attendance: Mr M Barnes,
Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie
BEREAVEMENT
Members stood for a minute's silence
as a mark of respect following Mr Dodds' recent bereavement.
ROLL CALL
The Chairman marked Members present
noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with
the agreement on these matters.
MINUTES
The minutes of 16 October 1998
were agreed.
REPRESENTATION ON COMMITTEE
Members discussed the request by
the recently formed Northern Ireland Unionist Party to be represented on
the Committee. The following points were made:
- The Initial Presiding Officer
had allowed Mr McCartney full representation on CAPO. There was scope
for this in that all the places on CAPO had not been taken up. Mr Ervine
expressed disquiet at the CAPO arrangement.
- All places on the Committee
on Standing Orders were on the other hand fully taken up and there was
concern that any move to raise the membership of CSO could result in an
imbalance of representation on the Committee.
- It was not clear under the
Initial Standing Orders what constitutes a party.
A draft response to the NIUP request
which was before the Committee was agreed and it was also agreed that the
Joint Chairman would meet with the Initial Presiding Officer to discuss the
matter. In the meantime a covering letter would be sent to the Initial Presiding
Officer advising him of the Committee's views.
STANDING ORDERS
The Committee was briefed on the
latest draft standing orders and the following initial comments from members
were noted in relation to "Speeches".
There was a view that the Presiding
Officer should be given more authority in relation to speeches in order to
protect the rights of back benchers.
There should be no prescribed
speaking times but the Presiding Officer should consult the Business Committee
to take into account the factors outlined in paragraph (8) of the draft.
Ms Morrice felt that it should
be possible for party members to share any speaking time given to parties.
Mr Cobain favoured a Westminster
style system where a member could catch the Speaker's eye.
It was agreed that the SO on
speeches should be couched in general terms to allow the necessary flexibility
in this difficult area.
There was some discussion on other
areas and in particular on the Rule on Deputy Presiding Officer. No decisions
were taken.
DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT
MEETING
It was agreed that the next meeting
would take place at 2.00 pm on Wednesday 3 February in Room 21, Parliament
Buildings.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was closed at 4.06
pm.
THE NEW NORTHERN
IRELAND ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON
STANDING ORDERS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday 3 February
1999 at 2.00 pm
In Room 21 Parliament
Buildings
Present: Mr M McGimpsey
Mr A McFarland
Mr S Farren
Mr E O'Neill (substituting for
Mr McGrady)
Mr S Wilson (substituting
for Dr Paisley)
Mr G Campbell
Mr N Dodds
Mr McCartney QC MP
Mr C Murphy
Mr F Molloy
Mr J Kelly
Mr D Ervine
Mr S Close
Ms J Morrice
Mr D Haughey
Mrs B Rodgers
In the Chair: Mr
F Cobain
Apology: Mr D Watson
(Note: an apology for Mr McCartney is
recorded for
the meeting of 27.1.99)
In attendance: Mr M Barnes,
Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie
ROLL CALL
The Chairman marked Members present
noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with
the agreement on these matters.
MINUTES
The minutes of 27 January 1999
were agreed.
SITTING TIMES
Letters from
the Presiding Officer to the Joint Chairs had been circulated to Members
in relation to sitting times. It was agreed that the matter would be considered
when the appropriate draft Standing Order was being re-examined.
PAPERS FOR COMMITTEE
The Chairman wished it to be
clearly recorded that it was for the committee to make its arrangements to
obtain what information it felt it needed and that the putting forward of
material to the committee for consideration, other than from formal Assembly
sources, was not considered appropriate.
MAKE UP OF COMMITTEE
Mr Haughey gave a resume of his
meeting of 28 January with the Presiding Officer in relation to the composition
of the Committee on Standing Orders.
His view of the situation at present
was that:
(a) there should be no further
extension in committee size;
(b) Mr McCartney ought to have
the right to observe and indeed he thought that he could still have input,
but no voting rights. The latter in practice was not an issue since the committee
rarely voted;
(c) the position of the UKUP
remained as it was until the Assembly resolved to change it. Any change would
be brought about through a business motion moved by the Presiding Officer.
Mr Kelly thought that it would
be a shame if the abilities of Mr McCartney were to be lost to the committee.
Mr Dodds felt that it was important
that every interest should be represented on a committee of this type and
importance. The committee's value was in its input and its deliberation.
A final vote would always have to go the Assembly in any case.
Mr Campbell suggested that we could
either enlarge the committee by one or go back to basics in terms of considering
a representation.
Ms Morrice thought that
it was important that there was inclusiveness.
Mr McCartney argued that the UKUP
was a "First
