Northern IReland assembly Tuesday 22 April 2008 Executive Committee Business: Private Members’ Business: Private Members’ Business: Adjournment: The Assembly met at 10.30 am (Mr Speaker in the Chair). Members observed two minutes’ silence. Mr Speaker: I inform Members that I will be absent from the Assembly on Monday 28 April, when I will be in Cardiff to attend a meeting of Presiding Officers. Taxis Bill Royal Assent Mr Speaker: I inform Members that the Taxis Bill has received Royal Assent. The Taxis Act (Northern Ireland) 2008 became law on 21 April 2008. Local Government (Boundaries) Bill Second Stage The Minister of the Environment (Mrs Foster): I beg to move That the Second Stage of the Local Government (Boundaries) Bill [NIA 14/07] be agreed. The Bill is the first step towards implementing the Executive’s decision on those elements of the review of public administration (RPA) that concern local government. As Members are aware, the Executive have decided that 11 is the best configuration for councils in Northern Ireland. That figure will provide the optimal grouping of current councils by striking a balance between reducing some of the diversity among existing areas, such as population characteristics and rating wealth, and promoting the ability of councils and their communities to identify and interact with one other. As I said yesterday, I intend to implement the agreed structural reforms by 2011. For practical and logistical reasons, accelerated passage is needed in order to secure the appointment of a Local Government Boundaries Commissioner in early July 2008, which is essential if the 2011 deadline is to be met. Much discussion took place on that yesterday, and I appreciate the support that my colleagues in the Assembly and on the Committee for the Environment gave to the motion on accelerated passage. The Bill’s purpose is to set the context for a review of local government boundaries in Northern Ireland in 2008 and to provide for the appointment of a Local Government Boundaries Commissioner to conduct that review. That is the first step towards the reorganisation of our local government. The Bill gives effect to the Executive’s decisions of 13 March 2008. It has six clauses, two of which are substantive. Clause 1 provides for the rationalisation of the existing 26 local government districts into 11 new districts. It sets those new districts’ broad boundaries by joining together “the whole or the major part” of the existing districts to form new larger local government districts and divides those districts into wards. Clause 2 provides for the appointment of a Local Government Boundaries Commissioner in 2008 to conduct a review and make recommendation on the boundaries and names of the 11 local districts, and the number, boundaries and names of the wards into which each district is to be divided. The clause also allows for a review of boundaries to take place every eight to 12 years thereafter. It is important that those reviews happen, because, in the past, we have been left with static boundaries for decades. Clause 2 also provides for the new district of Belfast to be divided into 60 wards, with the other 10 districts being divided into 40 wards. However, the commissioner will be given flexibility to vary the number of wards in any district by not more than five. The other four clauses cover consequential amendments and repeals, interpretation, commencement and the Bill’s short title. The Bill is, therefore, quite short. The Bill does not change in any way the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner’s procedures. The long-established principle of independence from central Government will be retained, and the commissioner will be required to undertake full public consultation. After consultation on provisional proposals, the commissioner’s final recommendations will be laid before the House. Hopefully, that will occur next year. At that point, there will be an opportunity for a full and frank debate before the recommendations become law. Agreement on the Bill will allow me to appoint a Local Government Boundaries Commissioner to commence work immediately. I anticipate that the review will take up to 12 months. It will then be for a commissioner appointed by the Secretary of State to group the new wards into district electoral areas (DEAs) to enable elections to be held. That will further prolong the process, so that is one of the reasons why we must consider the Bill under the accelerated passage procedure. The Bill is an important step in modernising and reforming local government in Northern Ireland. Reorganisation will result in stronger local government with enhanced functions and will provide for more effective delivery of local public services. To summarise, the Local Government (Boundaries) Bill marks the end of the process of deliberation on the number of councils. It is now time to start the process for introducing and implementing new council structures. Therefore, without further delay, I proceed to the debate. Mr Ross: I am glad that we have finally reached the stage at which legislation can be introduced. We can now set about the task of rejuvenating, rationalising and modernising local government in the Province. The review of public administration was launched in 2002 during the Assembly’s first mandate. That was a long time ago, and an assertion could be made that, all of a sudden, we are rushing a Bill through. However, I hope that that is happening because Members want the issue to be resolved. Local government is such an important form of local democracy. For many years, it was the only directly accountable form of democracy for the people of Northern Ireland. It is important that we move forward and ensure that the system of local government is brought up to date and that the new councils, with new powers, will complement what will be, it is to be hoped, a new stable and permanent Assembly at Stormont. During yesterday’s debate on accelerated passage — despite numerous warnings from the Speaker — Members strayed on to the subject of the Bill’s content. In many ways, that debate acted as a warm-up for today’s debate. Members on the Ulster Unionist Benches mentioned numerous times that the DUP had wanted 15 councils, and they questioned when that view had changed. Perhaps those Members should read our 2007 manifesto, which states our clear commitment to getting the review of public administration right. Yesterday, many Members from all sides of the House used the phrase “getting it right”. I am glad that they adopted the DUP’s election slogan. In our manifesto, we welcomed improvements that would streamline local government and reduce bureaucracy, but we rejected the assertion from direct rule Ministers that there should be seven super-councils. That would weaken local government and make it more remote. Our party made a clear commitment to replace the seven-council model with a more appropriate number of councils, but nowhere in our manifesto did we state that there should be 11, 15 or any other number of councils. In politics, certain decisions have to be made, and the assertions made yesterday by the Ulster Unionists and others that there was a choice between having 11 councils and 15 councils is totally bogus. The choice was between having seven councils and 11 councils: I prefer 11 any day. Now that the issue of the number of councils has been resolved, the Assembly can get on with the job of establishing new, more powerful and more effective local government. I welcome the Assembly’s granting of accelerated passage yesterday — we have stalled and deliberated enough. As was mentioned yesterday, it is disappointing that some Members chose to oppose everything just for the sake of opposition, and others spoke of problems when there were none. I look forward to the Second Stage of the Bill progressing, and to the Minister’s appointment of a boundaries commissioner at the beginning of the summer to consider the new boundaries and consult with the community over those proposals. Members will be able to argue their cases regarding boundaries, and no doubt some, as usual, will not be satisfied with the outcomes. At least, Members know from previous statements by the Minister that there will be checks and balances and that protections will exist for minorities — both Unionists in the west and Nationalists in the east. This should be welcomed. I support the Bill. Mr Boylan: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom labhairt i bhfabhar an rúin. I may get a chance to say a few more words today than I did yesterday. Mr Ford and Mr Gardiner said everything yesterday, and I would like to hear what they have to say today. Are they going to repeat themselves? Sinn Féin has little interest in giving enhanced powers to local councils unless they are accompanied by appropriate checks and balances to avoid discriminatory practices. Equality and fairness must be enshrined in any future legislation for the new structures. As a former member of Armagh City and District Council, I and my constituents have concerns as we have been linked with Craigavon and Banbridge and will be a Nationalist minority in a new council. The decision has been made, and equality and fairness is the key. If that hurdle is overcome, then the serious business of co-ordinating public bodies can begin. The review of public administration, if properly implemented, will strengthen local politics; enable it to make real improvements in the quality of life for all; and enhance service delivery. The Executive have agreed that the first step will be to allow a local boundaries commissioner to be appointed to review the present boundaries and establish the broad boundaries of the new 11-council model. That review should not be a carve-up, as others have commented; it should be a real opportunity to serve the interests of the general public by making public services more efficient. Accelerated passage of the Bill should not be used as a political point-scoring exercise — it will make no difference to the outcome — it will only delay the inevitable. The Assembly has been running for a year, and people want to see real decisions being made, not continue to listen to sound bites from self-proclaimed opposition parties. It is imperative that legislation is not held up any longer. We should ensure that the new local government structures will be in place in the time frame envisaged by the Minister and her Executive colleagues. Not to do so would be an affront to the electorate who have put us in the positions that we hold. Although others in the Chamber have concerns about the scrutiny role, it should be emphasised that the Committee of the Environment and the Members in the Chamber will be able to scrutinise the outcome of this Bill and future Bills relating to the review — that will ensure that the checks and balances are made. Let us get the process started. I welcome the Bill, and hope it will be the first step in delivering real change in the years ahead. Go raibh maith agat. Mr Beggs: I declare an interest as a member of Carrickfergus Borough Council. This Bill is the culmination of a long-standing RPA process that began in 2001. The long-standing goals were to renew and strengthen the role of local government, and to restore the powers and parities of our local government with that in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Ulster Unionist Party welcomes that. The Local Government (Boundaries) Bill sets out the legislative foundation for this important work, and my party’s position on accelerated passage was clearly stated yesterday. As this Bill will result in long-term changes and will have implications for many decades, it is important that there should be proper consultation to get things right, rather than rush the Bill through the House. I will now take the limited opportunity available to comment on the Bill and provide some degree of scrutiny. The Bill presupposes the validity and correctness of a local government authority model that is based on having 11 local government units for Northern Ireland. Needless to say, the Ulster Unionist Party has reservations about that model. Members said earlier that the choice was between seven councils and 11 councils. However, there was also a 15-council option. Therefore, it is wrong to say that the only choice was between seven and 11 councils when the preferred option could easily have been 15 councils. 10.45 am The Ulster Unionist Party’s chief concern is whether the 11 local government units adequately reflect the local identities and communities of Northern Ireland. It is for that reason that party members have consistently suggested that local government boundaries should be based on Westminster parliamentary units, which would provide a more appropriate form of local government. I remind Members that, in their submissions to the fifth periodical review of parliamentary constituencies — the report of which was published recently by the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland — every party represented in the House recognised that the boundaries of parliamentary constituencies reflected the ties and identities of local communities, as they should. It is essential that local people have an affinity with local government and identify with it so that they can participate and contribute to it. The somewhat abstract nature of the 11 units that are being proposed is not likely to engender that sense of affinity and identity. It is paramount that local government has the buy-in of local people. There is a real danger that the proposed model of 11 local authorities will overlap with, and become enveloped by, the 15 parliamentary units — the four Belfast constituencies combined into one and the other 14 constituencies. That will cause confusion and breed apathy among the electorate in Northern Ireland. This entire process set out to strengthen and rejuvenate local government, but there is a danger that, under the proposed model, people may lose interest in, and affinity with, their local councillors and institutions. They may deem that local government has become remote and less responsive to their needs. That would undermine role of local government as a strong force for local democracy and cohesion. Over the last 20 and 30 years, local forums have become a very important way for local people to reflect their views and ensure that they are being represented locally. Moving further away from that process presents real dangers, and I know that many Members share that view. I want to comment on the proposals from a local constituency point of view, as I am a councillor on Carrickfergus Borough Council. The proposals involve linking the councils in Carrickfergus, Larne and Ballymena. It is likely that the main services would subsequently be centred in Ballymena. The difficulty is that there are very poor transport links between Carrickfergus and Ballymena. Therefore, people from Carrickfergus would have to take a 10-mile detour through Larne or alternatively drive almost to Belfast to join the motorway and travel to Ballymena via Mallusk. Those poor transport links mean that the centre of local government would not be easily accessible to the people. There is a range of other reasons why Ballymena does not link naturally with Larne and Carrickfergus. As regards transport links, it would have been much better if Larne, Carrickfergus and Newtownabbey had been linked together, and that would have fitted in with the proposal for 15 councils. If there had to be a model of 11 councils, it would have made much more sense to have included Larne, Carrickfergus and Newtownabbey councils in one council area. The rail links and the main roads pass through those three council areas. Mr Weir: Will the Member give way? Mr Beggs: I will not give way at the moment. The Member will have an opportunity to speak later. There would be natural transport links for that area. If there had to be 11 councils, perhaps Larne, Carrickfergus and Newtownabbey could have formed one of those 11 councils. Ballymena is closer geographically to Antrim than it is to Larne and Carrickfergus. I do not know what sort of deal happened behind the scenes that is not part of public scrutiny. Sinn Féin and the DUP agreed that particular model of 11 councils and did not allow the necessary public scrutiny and consultation to take place. There are also important natural cultural links in the East Antrim area that the proposal does not fully recognise. The natural identities of locations are an important aspect of local government, and natural ties should be preserved. As a Boys Brigade (BB) officer, I am part of the East Antrim battalion. As a result of the local government boundary commission review, part of that battalion may now be linked to Ballymena, while the other part may be split off to be based elsewhere. I am also a member of the Orange Order that has an east Antrim combine that naturally links the people of the area. That is also being broken up by the proposed 11-council arrangement that was agreed between Sinn Féin and the DUP. It is disappointing that natural geographic and cultural linkages have been pushed aside. I am therefore interested to hear why Sinn Féin and the DUP decided to split Newtownabbey from Larne and Carrickfergus but added Ballymena. That is an important matter, because in the future, more powers will be granted to local government. For example, the new district police headquarters will move from Larne and Carrickfergus to Ballymena. A range of other services will be become centred in Ballymena, and people will increasingly have to travel to avail themselves of them. I can talk only about my knowledge of changes in my local area, but I feel that it would have been healthier to debate in detail all the other proposed changes during a Committee Stage. I am sure that improvements could have been possible. However, sadly, we find ourselves in the situation where accelerated passage is being used to progress the process speedily. More timely proposals could have been made in the past year, and there could have been detailed discussions and consultations. Why has that year been lost? Discussions and consultation could have brought about an improved, long-term change to local government in Northern Ireland to the benefit of all our citizens and ratepayers. Mr Ford: I support the Bill at this Stage, and I am sure that that will doubtless bring some relief to Members of the DUP. It is clear that we need to reform local government. However, many issues remain to be resolved. Indeed, Mr Beggs and Mr Boylan outlined some of those issues when they discussed accelerated passage being granted to the Bill yesterday. Unlike Mr Boylan, however, I do not intend to repeat yesterday’s speech about accelerated passage. The House has made its decision, and it is therefore incumbent upon all Members to make the Bill workable and to make the significant improvements to it that I believe are necessary. Furthermore, there has been no convincing argument as to why model 11b is the preferred option. There was no separate or individual consultation on it, and it was never treated as the preferred option until the Executive decided just before Easter to adopt it. The use of that model raises serious issues about boundaries, and Roy Beggs referred to some of those, which is significant for me because I have a similar constituency interest to him. Speaking as a councillor for Antrim Borough Council and as an MLA for all of Antrim and two thirds of Newtownabbey, I can say that putting Antrim and Newtownabbey together is logical. However, the result of that is the ludicrous grouping of Ballymena, Larne and Carrickfergus into one council area. That area can be crossed only by either entering Newtownabbey — people do not quite have to go into Belfast to reach the motorway — or by crossing one of the worst roads in Northern Ireland, which is frequently closed in winter. That proposal does not seem to have any degree of logic or community coherence. There would have been merit in examining some of the individual decisions that were made. I am not just referring to what I said yesterday about Newry and Mourne and Down being extended enormously and the fact that that extension will create communication problems; the use of model 11b has resulted in several issues not lying easily together, which should not be the case if we want a pattern of local government that is strong, coherent, logical and easily recognised by the people who live there. Other wider issues must be addressed. Throughout the whole RPA process there was much talk of coterminosity. However, we have now reached a situation whereby each of the five health and social services trusts will have cross-boundary issues to deal with. Once we moved away from the discredited model of seven councils, we were never going to have one-to-one coterminosity on such issues. However, it has reached the point where there will not even be simple one-to-two or one-to-three coterminosity between health trusts and district councils. There is a complete amalgam across that. The fact that the Police Service took the unfortunate, premature decision to adopt the wrong model of eight districts, which was driven by its need to rationalise its management structures, has created further cross-boundary difficulties that will add to ongoing problems. It is unrealistic to say that those issues will be resolved by the Bill as it currently stands. Indeed, it may be impossible to amend the Bill in order to create logical boundaries. The Minister must re-examine the issues. To specify in the list of the proposed 11 councils the whole or larger part of each of the 26 councils that is listed as falling inside one or other of them may not be a rational way to proceed. I did not approve of the previous notion of the Jeff Rooker-memorial “bent banana” district council that hovered round the north and west of Belfast, and I am not sure that Arlene Foster’s modified “bent banana” district council of Lisburn and Castlereagh, which hovers round the south and east of the city, is any better. There are problems with how that will be dealt with if the legislation continues to specify that the major part of Castlereagh must be joined with the major part of Lisburn. The issue would have merited discussion, which the Assembly has not been able to have. It will have to be resolved in the House in the coming weeks, although that will now be difficult. The Alliance Party will seek to produce amendments that will make some improvements to that procedure. Unlike others, the Alliance Party is prepared to put its amendments before the House and have them tested to see whether they attract support. There are also concerns about procedures. The Minister has emphasised that the boundaries commissioner’s work is part of long-standing established procedures. However, those procedures are the same as the ones that were used by the previous boundaries commissioner to draw up the boundaries for the seven, now non-existent, proposed districts, which resulted in some most peculiar boundaries. In one case, a rural ward was created in North Down that managed to span the edges of four towns. In my area, an illogically stretched ward took in a housing estate on the edge of Randalstown and a housing estate on the edge of Antrim, with a large rural area in the middle. Parts of Glengormley were combined with parts of Rathcoole. The current rules would make that possible again. They must be revised. The Assembly must ensure that townlands are not dismembered, and that it does not assume that main roads are logical boundaries in rural areas, when, in fact, they are not. That is what happened in the last assessment. That huge issue must be dealt with. The procedures are wrong. That they were used in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s does not mean that they will work in the present. The Alliance Party supports the concept of the Bill. The Minister will be relieved to know that my party will not go into the Lobby to vote against her at this time. However, she must deal with several serious issues. In her comments, she failed to respond to the substantive points that my colleague Stephen Farry and I made in yesterday’s debate on the way that the work of the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner intermeshes with that of the District Electoral Areas Commissioner, and on how to ensure that the outcome is the creation of logical and coherent district electoral areas. Those must be recognised by people and which meet the needs of natural communities, rather than prolong the current difficulties. What are the Minister’s responsibilities in conjunction with those of the Secretary of State to ensure that action is taken to improve that process immediately? Mr Gallagher: Mr Speaker, you will not want yesterday’s arguments to be rehashed in the debate. However, at the outset, I want to reiterate the SDLP’s opposition to the 11-council proposal and its concerns about accelerated passage. It is all very well for Mr Alastair Ross my colleague on the Environment Committee to dismiss valid concerns that were expressed by the SDLP yesterday as being made only for the sake of opposition. They cannot be dismissed that easily, because when those boundaries are drawn up, the backcloth will be set, against which the new councils will operate. Important principles of efficiency, value for money, the development of better relations and the building of a shared future are at stake for ratepayers. The SDLP opposed the Bill yesterday, not for the sake of doing so, but because we are against the scrambling through of legislation that moves Northern Ireland to new council arrangements. 11.00 am Members need only consider today’s criticism of Larne Borough Council to be aware that lessons need to be learned. Another example is Craigavon Borough Council, which has never invited public tenders for its legal services department, which performs an important function. All of those issues come into the picture and deserve careful consideration. I agree with Mr Ford about the previous commissioner coming up with some very peculiar conclusions. As we move forward it is important to preserve natural boundaries, whether parish or townland. I hope that that will be the case. The Bill deals with the commissioner’s appointment and salary, but the Minister and the Department must explain the role envisaged for assistant commissioners. In relation to wrapping up the boundary exercise, has the Minister any proposals for moving to the next stage, which will be to take all of that work and passing it to the District Electoral Areas Commissioner? Mr G Robinson: I declare an interest as a member of Limavady Borough Council. I will be as brief as possible. I support the Minister in her efforts to ensure that the RPA recommendations are fully implemented through the agreement of new electoral boundaries in Northern Ireland. The RPA proposals to enhance local government have been widely welcomed in my constituency of East Londonderry, but without the will of all parties in the Assembly they will prove difficult, if not impossible, to implement by the target date of 2011. I encourage Members to join me in fully supporting the Minister in her endeavours to reform and modernise local government. (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair) Mr A Maskey: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I hope that all parties in the Assembly welcome, as I do, the fact that we are in a position to move this process on. Clearly, there are a number of very complex and interlinked matters regarding the whole question of the review of local government. Over recent years, attempts to reach agreement on a wide range of issues have been made by all political parties and many other key stakeholders, including those involved in wider local government, trade unions and the business community. The issues involve questions of shared services, how local and regional government relate to each other in the new dispensation, how to obtain efficient and effective local government, and how to get fair and efficient governance arrangements that improve systems and help local government to run smoothly. Other elements include developing a community planning process that gives citizens a say in governance and addressing historical rates disparities so that individual councils can reach a financial balance. These are complex matters, but thorough discussions and debates have taken place over the past few years. Some of the parties here have not been involved in either the strategic leadership board or the previous task force, but all those who have been represented on those bodies over the past few years have been diligent in their attendance and their attention to the detail of the issues at hand. It is unfortunate that, at times, people in this House seek to misrepresent what other parties have been saying. We must move forward in a positive spirit. The process of accelerated passage of the Local Government (Boundaries) Bill has begun, and, in the time ahead, there will be an opportunity to discuss with the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner some of the concerns that have been raised this morning, once that person has been appointed. I made the point yesterday that no matter how the North is carved up, minority communities of one or other tradition will be created and may feel trapped within a council area dominated by the other tradition. Two important tasks, therefore, lie ahead. First, we must ensure that the appropriate checks and balances are uniformly built into the future governance arrangements of local government, so that all elected members, no matter which community they represent, have a proper and proportionate involvement in their local council that is protected in law. Secondly, we must have a community planning process, and other governance arrangements to allow councils to engage with communities. That is supposed to in some way address the idea that there will be fewer councils and, some people argue, that people will feel distant from their councillors. I understand the need of communities to feel an affinity for their local councils, and to relate to, and have access to, those councils. However, listening to some of the comments that have been made in some of these debates, it is easy to think that we are in north Africa or north America. We do not live in such a huge place. Mr B McCrea: I wish to take the Member up on that particular point. Is there any connection between Rosetta in Belfast, and Moira, which lies at the edge of my constituency of Lagan Valley? If we are serious about creating community engagement, should we not try to examine natural boundaries and do things properly? Mr A Maskey: I thank the Member for his intervention. I know that many people have no affinity with some of the established local connections and will be glad that some of those boundaries will be removed. As I keep saying in these debates, there will be anomalies. Some of those can be ironed out, and some may not be the anomaly that people are making them out to be; I simply make the point that no matter how the boundaries are carved up, anomalies may or may not occur. We can all make our own lists of geographical areas in which that might happen. It is essential to ensure that the future foundations of local government are built on the strongest and most robust legal protection for members of councils, those who work for them, and, most importantly, the people that we are there to serve. It is all about the safeguards, checks and balances that will be built in. That is another day’s work for us all, and I look forward to the day when those Members who have cited anomalies will fully embrace the need for full and appropriate governance arrangements that protect not only elected representatives, but the citizens that we are elected to represent. My party is keen to ensure that local government is considerably revamped by 2011. The Minister of the Environment has said that we are involved in a process, not an event. My party welcomes the commitments that have been made on issues such as timely boundary reviews and timely reviews of the functions that will be transferred and the nature of those functions. I have made the point repeatedly that any one of us could argue for a menu of functions to be transferred to local government. There is always a balance to be struck between what may best be delivered locally and what may best be delivered regionally. However, it is clear that those proposals are a work in progress and do not represent a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. The Minister of the Environment met all the other Ministers, and there will be future discussions to consider the appropriate transfer of functions and how those functions can best be delivered by local government. Sinn Féin looks forward to those discussions, and I remind Members that much of that work will be conducted by the strategic leadership board, with which local councillors who represent the parties and Northern ireland Local Government Association (NILGA) representatives will engage directly with the Minister and her officials. Furthermore — and importantly for us — those people will also have the opportunity to engage with the Executive and the Assembly via the Committee for the Environment. In the future, there will be ample opportunities to do our best collectively to get this right. Rather than taking time to reach agreement, the Executive subcommittee, Sinn Féin and the Democratic Unionist Party could have said that we were not prepared to reach such an agreement. Most people will welcome the fact that time was taken for careful consideration of complex matters and that we have reached an agreement that allows us to progress much more positively. Most people look forward to 2011, when local government will be stronger and fairer and will have a greater say about the services that it delivers directly or which are delivered via the legislation-based community-planning process, which is about ensuring that the functions over which local government does not have direct authority — such as roads, elements of education and health — can be influenced. Therefore, local government will have much greater input and influence, and, crucially, the new arrangements will afford elected representatives and democrats the opportunity to engage directly with communities, whether in Moira, Larne, Antrim or Crossmaglen. Irrespective of whether communities are nationalist, unionist or of another ethnic minority, for the first time, local government will have an obligation to work with them in order to ensure that all citizens are treated as first-class citizens and have some say about the functions that are to be delivered on their behalf. Sinn Féin looks forward to future debates, and it wishes to ensure that the new arrangements are right however long it takes. There has been much discussion, and I am glad that all stakeholders have had opportunities to consult. In the process outlined by the Minister, such opportunities will be ongoing, and the strategic leadership board will enable the outcomes from such discussions to reach the Executive and the Chamber. Therefore, boundaries, functions and governance arrangements will be considered, and Members will attempt to ensure not only that existing regional disparities and bad practices are not reinforced but that work is done to get those matters right. I am confident that, working together, we can get it right and that we will be able to promise the people that we represent, either in the Assembly or at local government level, that, in 2011, local government will be better, fairer, more efficient and cost-effective. Go raibh míle maith agat. Mr S Wilson: Despite yesterday’s bluster about the Bill’s accelerated passage and about how damaging that would be, if this debate’s arguments are a flavour of what we will have at Consideration Stage, the Minister of the Environment need not lose too much sleep about its passage through the Assembly. The issues raised so far have been special pleading about the positioning of boundaries and about which councils should be affiliated with other councils. 11.15 am I do not claim to have detailed knowledge of all the areas to which Members have referred, but it strikes me that even those who are opposed to the 11-council model have contradictory views on where the boundaries should lie. I suspect that if there was a 15-council model, or a seven-council model, or any other model, there would still be disputes. [Interruption.] The current 26-council model has been mentioned. If Members want councils that are so small that they cannot have real powers delegated to them because they cannot achieve economies of scale or critical mass, then they can stick with the 26-council model. However, I have not heard any party defend that model, apart from whoever it was who chipped in from a sedentary position — I do not know who that was, but I answered the point anyway. All of the parties want more powers for councils. Some contributions to the debate have been contradictory, others illogical, and still others just plain wrong — I will come to the plain wrong parts in a minute or two. I did not have the good fortune to hear all of the speech that Roy Beggs made, and I apologise for that, but I shall respond to the bit that I did hear. He made a plea for the boundaries of a new east Antrim council area to include all of the boundaries of the East Antrim parliamentary constituency — for them to be coterminous. He suggested that that seemed a logical way to proceed. However, Mr Ford then argued that one of the natural and logical council groupings would include Antrim and Newtonabbey. Newtonabbey cannot be in both council areas. Mr Ford: If the Member reads Hansard tomorrow, he will see that I did not say that that was logical. I said that, speaking as an MLA for all of Antrim and two thirds of Newtonabbey, that suited me, but, in taking account of the effect that that would have on Ballymena, Larne and Carrick, it became illogical. Mr S Wilson: I do not think that the word “illogical” was in his speech. I will check the Hansard report tomorrow. I believe that we may be witnessing a certain amount of recanting. Of course there will be differing views on where the boundaries should lie. However, it is significant that those who oppose the Bill cannot achieve agreement even within their own parties. Mr Beggs did not mention that this issue was discussed at a meeting of his own council last night, and that some members of his own party supported the 11-council model. Mr Beggs: Will the Member explain why he is so keen that his constituents from Larne and Carrickfergus should have to drive to Ballymena as their key centre for local government — [Interruption.] Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sure that, in meetings of the new councils, it will be necessary to make all remarks through the Chair, just as MLAs must. Mr S Wilson: This is the — Mr Beggs: I was still speaking — Mr Wilson had given way. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr Wilson, please continue. Mr S Wilson: At least let me answer the point on which I had given way, before asking another question. Mrs Long: Answer the question. Mr S Wilson: I am going to answer it. The argument has been made that every constituent who wishes to make representations to their council will get into their car, drive away from their street, drive up the road, and arrive at the council offices in Ballymena — if that is where those offices are going to be; I did not know that that had already been decided. Have Members never heard of telephones, faxes or emails? — I must admit that email beats me a bit — [Laughter.] There are other means of communication than trotting off to where the council office happens to be, if, indeed, it is going to be in Ballymena. People do not tell me that they should bring Westminster to Carrickfergus so that they can make representations to Parliament. That argument is nonsense. Mr B McCrea: Will the Member give way? Mr S Wilson: Yes, I will. However, I hope that the Member makes a point that is a bit more accurate than his last one: in his intervention to Alex Maskey, the Member asked what Rosetta has got in common with Lisburn. Some Members: Moira. Mr S Wilson: Moira; it is the same — it is in the Lisburn City Council area. Unless Lisburn City Council intends to engage in garden-grabbing on a grand scale, Rosetta had got nothing to do with Moira because it is in Belfast. [Laughter.] Mr B McCrea: It is great to get a lecture on accuracy from the great Sammy Wilson. I said Moira — the Member must get that into his head. I was trying to make the point that any part of Belfast could be linked with Moira, for example, Castlereagh. What about the great idea of linking Larne with Moira, which was also in the plan? When you asked whether people had not heard of a telephone or of walking — if that is your argument — then why have 11 councils instead of seven? If your argument is about efficacy and about getting people talking, seven councils is the answer. We want a system in which local councils have some semblance of relevance to the communities they serve and deliver local services to people who know to whom they are talking. That is the key point and it is why Members should debate this issue properly. When it — Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. This debate is developing into a farce. Members must make their remarks through the Chair. Mr S Wilson: The Member has made a speech not an intervention. [Laughter.] Mr B McCrea: Before the Member accepted my intervention, he made a sub-speech, which I am responding to. When the Member and I spoke about the Libraries Bill — Dr W McCrea: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it not true that an intervention is supposed to be just that and not an attempt to make a speech? Mr Deputy Speaker: As Mr Sammy Wilson was not objecting, I allowed Mr Basil McCrea to proceed. Mr S Wilson: I was objecting. [Laughter.] Mr B McCrea: Thank you for that clarification, Mr Deputy Speaker. Mr Sammy Wilson said to me — and he was using the Libraries Bill, which has just completed its Committee Stage, as an example — that there is a danger in letting things go, in that no changes can be made and no discussions can take place. This is exactly the same issue: we will have no opportunity to make any changes to this Bill. People say that there will be plenty of time, but there will not. It is a fait accompli; this Bill will be ramrodded through, and Mr Sammy Wilson should know that. Mr Deputy Speaker: There is no time limit when an intervention is accepted, so Members take that chance when they give way. Mr S Wilson: You are dead right. [Laughter.] Dr W McCrea: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Mr Deputy Speaker: Is it a different point of order? Dr W McCrea: It is the same point of order, and I ask you to accept it. In any elected Chamber, an intervention is supposed to be an intervention and not a speech. In other places, interventions are time limited. Mr S Wilson: Mr Deputy Speaker, I do not know if you want to respond to that. By any stretch of the imagination, the last intervention was not an intervention — if that is not too illogical — it was a speech. In future, I will be wary of Mr Basil McCrea’s interventions, mini-speeches or rants. Whatever he calls them, they are usually interesting. I will answer his point about linking Larne and Ballymena. Having represented the area, I have some knowledge on the matter. Do the councillors and inhabitants of Larne make representations about planning issues to Newtownabbey, Carrick or Larne? No — they make them to Ballymena. Do they make representations about Roads Service issues to Larne, Carrick or Newtownabbey — or Rosetta or Moira? No — they make them to Ballymena. If Basil McCrea wishes to intervene to provide me with some information — [Interruption.] Let me finish off with him, for goodness’ sake. If he wants to intervene, let him at least gain some local knowledge first. Mr Weir: Does the Member agree — bearing in mind that the Ulster Unionists seem to be very keen on parliamentary constituencies — that, for more than half a century, Ballymena was part of the same parliamentary constituency as Larne, but now is being painted as some distant planet that has no connection with Larne? Mr S Wilson: Those interventions were, of course, cunning ploys to divert me from the point that I was making about last night’s council meeting. Do not run away, Mr Beggs. [Laughter.] I shall finish talking about last night’s meeting of Carrickfergus Borough Council, at which this issue was discussed. Significantly — perhaps my colleagues from East Antrim will correct me — this issue was of such import to Mr Beggs, who has poured his heart out about it this morning, that the debate was not initiated by him, but by Mr Neeson. At that meeting, when it came to the vote, even Mr Beggs’s own colleagues did not support him unanimously, and, as a result, the motion was defeated. Carrickfergus Borough Council, as far as I know, with the exception of Mr Beggs, voted to work towards making the 11b model work, and to put in place the arrangements for that. We will come to his reason for that in a moment. That is an indication of how strongly his fellow members of Carrickfergus Borough Council feel about this issue. I suspect, however, that the real reason for his opposition is that the configuration of councils is not to the suiting of Mr Beggs. Under the current configuration, one ends up with two Beggses on two councils, whereas, in the new configuration, there might be room for only one Beggs. I suspect that the passion — if one can call it that — that we have seen from Mr Beggs this morning is more about self-preservation than concern about boundaries and whether people will have to travel to Ballymena to make representations to their council. Mr Neeson: Will the Member agree that the combination of Carrickfergus, Larne and Ballymena is the most blatant case of gerrymandering in this Province since the infamous days of Derry City Council? Mr S Wilson: I find that accusation amazing. Larne and Carrickfergus are unionist-dominated councils. If Newtownabbey Borough Council was a nationalist-dominated council, one could, perhaps, argue that by including Ballymena with Larne and Carrickfergus, and excluding Newtownabbey, there might have been an element of trying to achieve a political balance. However, why on earth, if that is what one wanted to achieve, would one put all unionists in one council, and not spread them around? However, that is not the case — Newtownabbey is as predominantly unionist as Ballymena. Gerrymandering, as I understand it, is the fixing of boundaries in an attempt to achieve a particular political outcome. The political outcome will be no different whether one chooses Ballymena or Newtownabbey. Perhaps Mr Neeson wants west Belfast to be thrown in with Carrick and Larne to get a community balance. 11.30 pm Mr Kennedy: Or Newry and Mourne. Mr S Wilson: Or Newry and Mourne. God forbid that Danny Kennedy would be part of the new council. [Laughter.] Those suggestions are not logical. On the one hand, we heard that the boundaries should reflect the parliamentary constituencies, and on the other hand, Mr Ford said that it makes sense that Newtownabbey and Antrim should be together. Regardless of which boundaries are chosen, such disputes will remain. Mr Ford made a valid point, but he did not follow it through. He said that edges of towns can get caught in one council area, rather than being in the same council area as the rest of the town. That is inevitable, especially when new housing developments are built on the edges of towns, and that is one of the reasons why it will be necessary to review boundaries. Mr Ford asked how that could be dealt with under the existing rules. He said that the rules could have been changed if the route of accelerated passage had not been taken. [Interruption.] Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The Member has the Floor. Mr S Wilson: I am only quoting Mr Ford, and he is wrong to say that. If he had taken the time to read the recommendations on how the commissioner should deal with reviewing boundaries, he would have known that. The Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972, which will be amended by the Bill, states: “As far as practicable a district shall not be wholly or substantially severed by the boundary of another district.” That gives the Boundaries Commissioner the opportunity to consider the edge-of-town anomalies to which Mr Ford referred. Mr Ford: The Member is completely confusing the issue of a district’s external boundary with my point about the current difficulties that result from the way in which the rules create wards that are not logical or coherent. The issue of whether a district is included in another has nothing to do with my point about trying to get logical wards and, hence, logical district electoral areas. Mr S Wilson: I will supply a copy of the Act if the Member wants to read it. I referred to districts because, in some cases, the edges of towns may have grown and may finish up in one district instead of another. The Boundaries Commissioner will work to terms that can deal with that. The rules for determining the numbers and boundaries of wards are the same: they will have regard for the size, population, physical diversity and the desirability for proper urban and rural representation. All those factors will be taken into consideration to deal with the logical boundaries of wards. Mr McNarry: Are you passing that over to him? Mr S Wilson: The Member asks from a sedentary position whether we are passing this over to the Boundaries Commissioner. It just so happens that that is how the boundaries are determined — by the commissioner. They are not determined by us. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind Members to make their remarks through the Chair. Mr S Wilson: Sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. The boundaries are determined by the Boundaries Commissioner. Members will not consider the nitty-gritty of each boundary in the Assembly. Mr McNarry: Why not? Mr S Wilson: The law says that a Boundaries Commissioner is appointed to do that and that that person will produce a report. Mr Ford: Will the Member give way? Mr S Wilson: No, because if the Members beside me do not understand how the system works, they should not enter a debate. Mr Ford made a valid point, but the rules provide ample opportunity to deal with it. Mrs Long: Will the Member give way? Mr S Wilson: As I have not yet given way to the honourable lady, I will do so now. Mrs Long: I appreciate the Member’s giving way, and I thank him for being so liberal with his time. Does the Member accept that social coherence is not among the criteria? The Alliance Party was making the point that boundaries should take account not only of size and population but social coherence. Mr S Wilson: It is still possible to cater for social coherence, because the Bill’s terms of reference are wide enough to allow the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner to take account of all such considerations. I assume that, when the time comes for representations to the commissioner, all parties and their local councillors will make exactly those points to him. Dr Farry: I will try to clarify the point that Basil McCrea tried to make earlier. Does the Member accept that when the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner was considering a seven-council model a couple of years ago, he made only minor modifications to the external boundaries of council groupings? There are genuine issues to be considered: for example, it may be reasonable for the commissioner to make significant revisions in the southern reaches of Belfast, because it makes much more sense for services in Castlereagh to be provided from a base in Belfast than one in Lisburn. Given that the DUP is strongly in favour of making efficiencies in Government, surely that should also be a consideration. Mr S Wilson: I agree with the Member, but the logic of what he said is that the Minister, having appointed an independent Local Government Boundaries Commissioner, should dictate that he or she must make substantial changes. The Member cannot have it both ways: when an independent commissioner is appointed, the best that a Minister and the House can do is to lay down a set of guidelines that allows him or her to make small or larger changes — Mr Ford: Will the Member give way? Mr S Wilson: Let me finish the point, for goodness’ sake. The Local Government Boundaries Commissioner can make small or larger changes to boundaries. I guarantee that if the Minister were to be as prescriptive as some of the contributors to the debate want her to be, Members would be up in arms. It would be a case of the Minister more or less informing the commissioner of her desired outcome and telling him or her what must be done to achieve it. Mr Ford: I wonder whether the Member has read clause 1(2) of the Bill: “The 11 local government districts shall incorporate, respectively, the whole or the major part of the following former local government districts—”. The Alliance Party’s point is that by prescribing that at least the “major part” of Castlereagh must be included in a district with Lisburn, the Bill makes it increasingly difficult to draw logical boundaries on the southern and eastern edges of Belfast. Some Members: Hear, hear. Mr S Wilson: As far as I understand the clause, the “major part” refers to the geographical area covered by the council. Therefore, any changes to the edges of Belfast would not involve huge geographical swathes. Rather, they would involve including areas of high-density population, such as the Cregagh and Tullycarnet estates. The Bill enables the commissioner to make the kind of changes to which the Member referred. If I am wrong, the Minister will have no difficulty in correcting me, but that is my understanding of clause 1(2). Mr B McCrea: If the Member does not understand the clause, he should not be here. Mr S Wilson: I have a better understanding of the clause than the Member, who, in his every intervention, demonstrated geographical and procedural ignorance, and a total lack of knowledge of the subject being debated. I look forward to his speech, when I am sure that Members will be privy to his wisdom. First, the Minister has been attacked for establishing model 11b, with allegations that the model was agreed without consultation. That is patently untrue; there was extensive consultation on the seven-, 11- and 15-council models. The Minister has not drawn a new model out of a hat; it was discussed widely through consultation during direct rule. Secondly, the Minister has demonstrated a degree of political skill to guide the Assembly to this point. Sinn Féin was wedded to the seven-council model. In fact, it was so wedded to that model that, when one of its members — who has now been reconciled with the party and given a Deputy Speaker position — dissented — Mrs D Kelly: Will the Member give way? Mr S Wilson: I will give way in a minute. I want to finish my point and have a go at Sinn Féin, because I have had a go at everyone else. [Laughter.] When that Member dared to dissent from the party line on the seven-council model, he was either expelled, suspended from the party or threatened — something happened to him, anyway — because Sinn Féin felt so sore about it. Against the background that Sinn Féin had wedded itself to, and was prepared to discipline its own members over opposition to, the seven-council model, the Minister had to try to reach agreement. Those of us who serve on local councils knew that decisions were required. The fact that the Minister was able to reach agreement on a model and a number of councils allowed a proposal to reach the House. She should be congratulated, rather than criticised. If other Executive Ministers — in particular, the Minister of Education — demonstrated similar political skills and tried to reach agreement, the Assembly might make better progress. The 11-council model is logical; it does not divorce councils from their constituents and retains a degree of locality and local input. Moreover, the council areas are large enough to give councils the critical mass to take on extra responsibilities. I have served most of my political life on local councils, and I believe fervently that it is important that local councils have the capacity to undertake more regeneration work in their areas. However, that can only be achieved with a sufficient degree of critical mass. Having served on Belfast City Council — a large council, big enough to employ staff with expertise, as opposed to some of the smaller councils that I deal with in the course of my parliamentary work — I am in a position to make comparisons. Smaller councils by their nature cannot — and this is not a criticism — attract the kind of staff who are required, and they cannot attain the critical mass to complete the work that we would like them to do. Therefore, the Minister has hit it right politically by reconciling differences in the Executive, and she has hit it right economically by establishing councils that are big enough to take on those responsibilities. Therefore, I hope that the House will support the Bill. Amendments may be tabled that will improve the Bill; that is the point of this debate. I look forward to examining those amendments at Further Consideration Stage. Mr Armstrong: During yesterday’s debate, Members mentioned the importance of the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner, who will, undoubtedly, play a vital role in the process. It is important — perhaps fundamental — that we be clear on the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner’s remit. That is only fair to the commissioner, whomever he or she turns out to be. We must ensure that the remit set out in the Bill reflects best practice in the rest of the United Kingdom. Moreover, the commissioner must be able to reflect local people’s ties and affinities in the structures of local government. 11.45 am We are all aware of the potential political sensitivities that will surround the commissioner’s work. We must, therefore, give him or her the relevant and necessary tools to reflect in those structures local people’s will and their affinities. It is crucial that Members establish an appropriate remit for the commissioner. The vast majority of Members are aware of the public ridicule that greeted the former proposals, framed under direct rule, for seven local government units. We all remember the public outcry over the ridiculously abstract boundaries that did not reflect, in any form, shape or fashion, the realities and strengths of local identities in Northern Ireland. To ensure that such an outcome is not repeated must now be a priority for the commissioner. The mess made under direct rule underlines and emphasises the fundamental importance of ensuring that the Bill properly sets out the commissioner’s remit. His or her success may have a knock-on effect for the success of local government. People who associate with their local representative bodies are more likely to vote in local elections and to become involved in and appreciate those bodies. Mrs D Kelly: Will the Member give way? Mr Armstrong: I have just finished. [Laughter.] Mr McKay: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Given that we are working to the deadline of the 2011 local government elections, a clear need existed for the Bill to be granted accelerated passage. It is important that the process experience no further delays. Sinn Féin believes that equality and fairness must be the cornerstone of the new councils. That fact must be enshrined in any future legislation for the new structures. The proposals for the new face of local government will ensure that, in future, no community in any part of the Six Counties will feel discriminated against. It is important that local government be effective and that it empower local communities. The community-planning process provides such an opportunity. We should not be hung up on the number of councillors — councils’ effectiveness must take priority over keeping seats for politicians. The process has dragged on for far too long, so the Bill is to be welcomed. We now have the opportunity to deliver a more efficient and effective system of local government — one that engages with communities and protects minorities. Go raibh miath agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Mr Weir: I support the motion. I will keep my remarks brief, because we all anticipate that rare treat — a Basil McCrea speech without a time limit. I do not want to delay that any longer than is necessary. I listened to the remarks of Mr Beggs Jnr a Member for East Antrim, and I was reminded of the film ‘Alive’. For those Members unfamiliar with it, the film involved a plane crash in the Andes. The plane was carrying a South American rugby team, and over 10 weeks, survivors of the crash fought to stay alive. Let me explain, for Members familiar with the film, that I do not refer to the bit of the film in which the survivors resorted to cannibalism. I know that the Ulster Unionist Party can occasionally indulge in a degree of infighting, but even I would not accuse it of cannibalism. Rather, I refer to an incident towards the end of the film, where a couple of the survivors, in a last, desperate attempt to be rescued, spent a fortnight climbing in the Andes in appalling conditions, scaling one peak after another, before eventually reaching safety in another country. Such was the picture painted of the route from Larne to Ballymena. It is, according to Mr Beggs, a perilous journey, during which the poor, stranded people of Larne might have to resort to cannibalism. Mr Beggs: I said that the journey from Carrickfergus to Ballymena was difficult. Mr Weir: The vast difference in distance between Larne and Carrickfergus obviously negates my point. The Member evidently considers the journey from Carrickfergus to Ballymena to last several weeks. This is hardly rural America — hundreds of miles will not have to be crossed to reach a council building. The type of nonsense that we have heard today, suggesting that the new council areas will cover a territory that is too vast, does not hold water. We are told that coterminosity with parliamentary boundaries should be sought. However, no other structure in Northern Ireland is coterminous with parliamentary boundaries, be it health, education, police, or planning structures. Indeed, there is no part of the United Kingdom where the councils are established according to a parliamentary constituency. Therefore, the idea of coterminosity does not hold water. Mr Beggs mentioned the Orange Order, which is based on a county model. I assume that Mr Beggs is a member of the County Antrim Lodge. If we were to follow the Orange Order structure — based on six counties, plus Londonderry city and Belfast — we would have an eight-council model. Therefore, that argument does not carry much weight. Local identity and social coherence have been mentioned as two of the key criteria that, it is claimed, are ignored by the seven-council model. Local identity is important, and there is a balance to be struck, because the model cannot be driven purely by local identity or, indeed, by affinity between communities. Mr Shannon: It was long before my time, but back in 1973, a local government reorganisation took place — Mr S Wilson: That was not before your time at all. [Laughter.] Mr Shannon: I was first able to vote in 1973, so the Member can work out my age from that. At that time, there was Newtownards Town Council and Ards Rural Council, and people were concerned when they came together to form Ards Borough Council. In fact, that worked out very well and the people were happy with the changes. We will be quite happy with the proposed changes to take over North Down Borough Council and absorb it into Ards Borough Council this time around. [Laughter.] Mr Weir: I welcome Alderman Shannon’s comment. I should have declared an interest as a member of North Down Borough Council — or “greater north Down borough council”, as it will soon be known, when it takes over the Ards area. In any area, there are communities that are relatively adjacent to one another that do not necessarily share a sense of affinity. I am thinking of my own constituency, where there have been problems with a new community hall, or areas such as Conlig and Breezemount, which are effectively separated by the dual carriageway between Bangor and Newtownards, and where it could be argued that there is no real sense of affinity between the communities. If social coherence is to be a key criterion, how can the areas of the Malone Road and Taughmonagh in Belfast be combined? I do not see a great deal of social coherence between those two areas. I agree that local identity must be one of the factors that is taken into consideration, but if it is to be the sole driver behind the new council structure, we could end up with 111 councils or 1,111 councils, because people’s identification with their own local community goes much deeper than the council area to which they belong. Local identity is important, and that is one of the reasons why I believe that the seven-council model is not the right one. However, a balance must be struck between local identity and the issues of economies of scale, the opportunity for efficiencies of delivery, population and the rates burden. That is why I believe that the 11-council model represents a reasonable solution to the issue. We must ensure that local government is not only fit to inherit the range of functions that are outlined in the RPA, but that this is only the start of a process and that councils are suitable to adopt more functions in future. If there are too many councils, it becomes difficult to argue that additional functions should be brought down to local-council level. However, if there are too few councils, the argument about remoteness comes into play, so we must strive for a balance. I wish to deal with one of the points that Mr Ford raised about the need to try to ensure that the right ward boundaries are set. I understand the point that he is driving at, but ward boundaries are needed. As was suggested at one stage — although not in this Chamber — we cannot simply adopt the district electoral areas. Ward boundaries have to be of relatively similar size because they are the building blocks, not just of local government, but of parliamentary constituencies. Therefore, it is vital that that matter is addressed. Although it would be useful if ward boundaries reflected local identities, I have yet to meet anyone in North Down who has complained about their ward boundary. The issue is not top of the political agenda. Yesterday, Mr Sammy Wilson derogatorily referred to members of the Committee for the Environment as “anoraks”. The collective term for anoraks might be “alliance”; certainly that is the impression that Mr Ford gave today. There is a range of interpretations of how ward boundaries should be drawn up. Members could draw up precisely the boundaries that they want. I could make an argument that because of natural affinity, areas around Saintfield, for instance, should be in the same ward as North Down and Ards. However, I will resist the temptation of going into too much detail on that issue. However, the boundaries that I would draw up would be different to those of the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for the Environment, Mr Boylan — and they would definitely be different to those of Mr Basil McCrea. Mr Ford: The Member made an interesting point about the procedures for drawing up ward boundaries. I am sure that it is true that his constituents in North Down — like mine in South Antrim — do not particularly worry about the ward in which they happen to have been included. However, wards are used not merely as building blocks; they are also used for statistical purposes. All Members will be aware of instances in which areas have failed to get the necessary social support because they happen to fall within an affluent ward. Such issues are being ignored due to the current procedures. Mr Weir: Sensitivity can be used when targeting social need. For example, enumeration districts could be used. Therefore, there are solutions to the problem. The pattern of housing in Northern Ireland sometimes makes it difficult to draw up boundaries that entirely reflect a degree of social cohesion. However, the point about ward boundaries should not be laboured too much. All Members could draw up their own sets of boundaries. However, if I, the Minister, Mr Boylan or Mr Basil McCrea were to draw up those boundaries, the obvious accusation would be that there would be some form of gerrymandering. Even the redoubtable Mr Ford would be accused of some form of gerrymandering were his wish list to be granted. If the Bill becomes law, which I hope it will, the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner will be able to do the job independently. To take local needs into account, it will be important that the commissioner has the level of flexibility that the Bill will provide. The commissioner will be able to reflect the views on the ground and to make any necessary changes. I particularly welcome the level of flexibility that the Bill will provide in that there will not be a one-size-fits-all system for the number of councillors. That will enable the needs of different populations to be met and will allow for the divergence of any necessary boundary changes. The Bill will afford the commissioner the opportunity to increase or decrease the number of wards per district by up to five, which means that he or she will not be put into a straightjacket on that issue. The Bill is an important step in the modernisation of local government. I wish it well and I urge Members to support it. Dr Farry: I declare an interest as a member of North Down Borough Council, which will soon be known as the greater North Down council; Mr Weir also serves on that council. I also declare that I have left my anorak outside. I have no doubt that wearing anoraks in the Chamber would be deemed by the Speaker to be inappropriate dress. I am interested to know who the second anorak on the Committee for the Environment is going to be, and if he or she would come forward. Mr Weir: That is making an assumption that the Committee is restricted to two anoraks. [Laughter.] Dr Farry: I hope that the other anoraks will reveal themselves in due course. 12.00 noon If the accusation of Alliance Party “anoraks” refers to our detailed consideration of legislation and future boundaries, I am quite happy to stand guilty as charged. Those are matters of critical importance. However, the Alliance Party is content for the Bill to receive a Second Stage. In common with others, we recognise that there is a need to reform local government, and we will not stand in the way of that process. However, we have issues with aspects of the Bill — particularly the number of councils and the approach to the new boundaries. Those issues will be addressed through amendments that the Alliance Party will table later this week. Members have said that the goal of the Bill is to create strong, modern local government. I am sure that we all buy into that concept. However, I have major reservations about that being achieved on the basis of an 11-council model. As is the case anywhere else, councils in Northern Ireland provide a number of different functions and services. At a basic level, councils collect bins and deal with waste — and those are the only experiences that some people have of their local councils. Councils also provide a focus for local identity, civic pride and local representation. They ensure that decision-makers are accessible to the people whom they represent. Whenever distance is created between councillors and the public, potential problems and barriers could result, and people could feel isolated. Establishing fewer large councils is sensible in respect of economies of scale and efficient service delivery. On the other hand, a greater number of smaller councils would provide a better local focus and more access to decision-makers. Smaller councils would also be less remote from the public. Therefore, a compromise must be found. My concern is that that balance has not been achieved by the 11-council model. The decision to establish 11 councils was reached through a political compromise between the DUP and Sinn Féin, and both parties were fairly open about that. That is fair enough, because that is part and parcel of governance. However, a rational analysis of the facts would not lead one to an 11-council model — a 15-council model is a more sustainable solution. The potential range of additional powers to be transferred to councils and the degree of uplift in the control of councils over public expenditure are not much more significant than the current position. The big difference will be in the area of community planning and general well-being, which is essentially a co-ordination function. That is extremely welcome and much needed, but it does not amount to a major shift in service delivery. Does a move from 26 councils to 11 represent too big a leap, owing to the fairly modest transfer in the level of services? Does the 11-council model have the potential to lose aspects of local identity, civic pride and access to elected representatives? I have concerns about the proposed boundary arrangements. I will resist the temptation to talk about my local area, and will instead talk about issues across Northern Ireland. At the moment, an effective pattern is in place, as the current 26 councils are based around large towns and their hinterlands. There may well be exceptions, but that is a general rule, and that provides a focal point for identity and service delivery. When new councils are created by lumping existing bodies together into groups, all sorts of anomalies will inevitably arise. I have no doubt that, on paper, the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner will have a mandate to consider major redesigns of current councils — as long as the major geographical part of the suggested groupings stay together. In practice, however, only minimal changes to the boundaries of the proposed seven super-councils were made in 2006. One such change concerned Coleraine Borough Council and Limavady Borough Council, and the boundaries within which Mussenden Temple would be considered to lie. It was only at that type of level that changes were made, rather than the more radical changes that are necessary to create more logical units. I refer specifically to Belfast, which is a fairly tightly drawn city by UK and international standards. Many of its suburbs lie outside the Belfast City Council boundary. However, to all intents and purposes, those suburbs are part of Belfast, and the people who live there consider that to be the case. The southern suburbs of Belfast that are in the Castlereagh council area will be lumped in with Lisburn, and people will be confused about that and will not understand why that should be the case. More critically, there are major challenges for service delivery. If the reform is to be about efficiency, there will not be council works depots, for example, on every street corner in the new council areas. Instead, there will be some rationalisation. For example, in the proposed Castlereagh/Lisburn amalgamation the focus will inevitably be on Lisburn city. One might question whether it will be more efficient to empty the bins in parts of Castlereagh from a base in Lisburn as opposed to working from a base in Belfast. There are major challenges to be faced, and although, on paper, those can be addressed by a boundary commission, I have severe reservations about whether the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner will make radical decisions. It is not the case, as Mr Sammy Wilson suggested, of the Alliance Party wishing that the Minister would give clear directions to the boundaries commissioner as to what should happen — although opting for option 11b is, in itself, a form of direction — it is about ensuring that the commissioner takes a broad regard of his or her remit and is prepared to make radical changes to create coherent units for future local government. There are separate processes for examining first, wards and district boundaries, and secondly, district electoral areas. Yesterday the Minister suggested that those examination processes are separate and must take their course. Although I appreciate that they operate under different powers and that different offices are responsible for each process, the two are fundamentally linked. When one is drawing ward boundaries, one must think about how those wards might be fitted together to form coherent district electoral areas in the future. At present, that is not part of the remit of the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner. According to my analysis of what happened in 2006, difficulties would have been handed over to the District Electoral Area Commissioner, had one been appointed then. At that time, my party made representations about that. However, it was not taken on board by the commissioner, given that it was not part of their terms of reference. If we were able to streamline the two processes and have some form of joined-up and efficient government, we would save some time and produce a more logical and coherent process further down the line. Finally, I concur with Mr Weir’s points about using Westminster boundaries. Parliamentary boundaries are subject to a different review process to that for local government boundaries. Parliamentary boundaries should change every 10 or 12 years, and we will see that happening frequently. At times, radical changes to parliamentary boundaries can be made. For example, the new constituency of West Tyrone was created in 1997. Given that we cannot simply change council boundaries to that degree, it is important to spend time ensuring that we get it right at the start. We must accept that council boundaries will be in place for 30 or 40 years, and, although we talk about reviewing those boundaries every 10 years, in practice, those reviews may result in minor tinkering rather than reforms on the scale that one might expect to see for Westminster boundaries. We must be clear about that. I am happy to support the Bill’s Second Stage in order that we can move ahead with the reform of local government. However, some serious issues must be addressed at Consideration Stage. My colleagues and I will be happy to table serious amendments, which we hope will be given proper consideration in the House. Mr B Wilson: I have been a North Down councillor for the past 28 years, and I also declare an interest in the debate. I do not support the Bill, and, in particular, the adoption of model 11b. I regret that the Committee for the Environment did not have an opportunity to take evidence — particularly on the number of councils — because the options set out in the RPA are now obsolete. Those were published more than three years ago, and the parameters have changed. The proposed 11-council model will reduce local democracy, cause maximum disruption and achieve minimum benefit. The entire RPA exercise has turned out to be a damp squib. Expectations were built up about increased powers for local government, but few significant powers are being transferred. The RPA exercise is based on a number of false premises: the devolution of additional powers to local councils; significant savings for the ratepayer; more efficient and effective delivery of services; coterminosity being central to the provision of effective services. The proposed model will not achieve any of those objectives: no significant powers will be devolved; there is no evidence that any savings will be made; efficiency and effectiveness are not guaranteed; and the idea of coterminosity seems to have been abandoned. Indeed, with hindsight, it is difficult to understand why coterminosity was promoted so actively when other services now seem to have ignored it. We have five health trusts, seven police districts and a single authority for education. The proposal to have 11 councils is based on the same false assumption that, in providing efficient and effective services, big is beautiful. It is argued that the critical mass must rise quite significantly if councils are to be allocated additional responsibilities. Sammy Wilson referred to that in some detail. However, recent research into local government reform in Britain by Tony Travers indicates that that is not necessarily the case. He states: “It does not appear possible to argue a conclusive case for a strong and one-directional link between population size and efficiency and effectiveness … It is not possible to say that larger authorities perform, on the whole, better than smaller, or that smaller authorities perform better than larger. In fact, the assumption that size is associated with efficiency and effectiveness is far from proven.” The RPA consultation paper used that assumption to suggest that reorganisation of local government could save between £15 million and £75 million, which is almost 16% of the total local government expenditure. That figure seems incredible, given that the same level of services — refuse collection, local leisure centres, and so on — will still be provided. Absolutely no evidence was given to support that figure. The RPA’s proposals are also based on the premise that the current local authorities are exceptionally small. That is not the case in comparison with local authorities in other European countries. The powers that have been devolved to our regional Assembly are still limited. Therefore, there is no strong case for significantly increasing the size of local government authorities, particularly if it is done at the expense of local democracy and accountability. In Professor Colin Knox’s briefing paper to the RPA, he pointed out that local authorities in Northern Ireland, and elsewhere in the UK, already have the largest average populations in Europe. The proposed new authorities would have average populations of 160,000. Those would be among the largest in the world and significantly larger than council populations in the rest of the UK. Such massive authorities cannot be sensitive to the wishes of local communities. They would reduce accessibility and democratic accountability, and destroy civic identity. The proposal to reduce local authorities to single figures is unprecedented and is totally out of step with the rest of Europe. We are proposing to have a council for every 160,000 people. France has a council for every 1,600 people; Germany has a council for every 5,400 people; and the Irish Republic has a council for every 33,000 people. Many smaller authorities — that are democratically accountable — operate successfully throughout these islands by providing efficient and economic local services. The Green Party believes that the 11-council model will not improve services; it will destroy local democracy and take the “local” out of local government. Can anyone say that they have local government when their local town hall may be 40 miles away? 12.15 pm Mr Weir: The Green Party is concerned that the 11-council model will destroy local democracy. Will the Green Party put its money where its mouth is and refuse to contest elections for these facades of councils that the Member has referred to? Mr B Wilson: The answer is no. The boundaries are a result of a number-crunching exercise to achieve an optimum number of councils whilst ignoring local identity, traditional boundaries and long-established communities. The suggestion that it is necessary to have 11 councils to achieve the critical mass and provide major services has no validity. The Welsh and Scottish models refute that. Wales has an assembly plus a single tier of local government, which consists of 22 unitary councils. One of those authorities — Cardiff — has more than 250,000 people, and more than one third of those authorities have fewer than 100,000 people, but they all have full responsibility for a wider range of services than those proposed in option 11b. In his analysis of the RPA proposals, Professor Colin Knox said that the case made by the review team for single large tier local authorities is not grounded on experience elsewhere. He also referred to the unitary councils in Britain, which were an amalgamation of previous authorities that often lacked any sense of shared identity. Furthermore, he said that many of the new councils appeared superficial because they brought together, in a single authority, towns that in most countries in Europe would be authorities in their own right. However that is what is being proposed here. We are proposing to bring together towns that have no common identity. That has not worked in England, and it will not work here; we should not make a similar mistake. Unlike Sammy Wilson, I think that the 26-council model proposed by Macrory is preferable to the 11-council model. The 26-council structure provides accessibility, accountability and civic leadership. It also encourages participation in local democracy and promotes a sense of local identity. Councils are the only locally-elected, democratically accountable bodies to have operated continuously and provided services throughout the 30-year conflict. The Omnibus survey that was carried out by the review of public administration showed strong public support and satisfaction with services provided by local authorities — unlike those provided by the unaccountable quangos in health and education. The review of public administration should be focused in those areas. Mr S Wilson: Does the Member accept that one cannot compare the 11 councils — which will comprise elected members — with quangos, such as health and education boards? It is a nonsense to make that comparison and say that the public would be as dissatisfied with an all-elected council — which will be bigger than the existing councils and have greater powers — as it is with quangos. Mr B Wilson: I was not making that comparison. The Omnibus survey showed that the public’s main concern with public services related to health and education. Most people were happy with the way local councils were operating, and the statistics show that. The Omnibus survey also showed that councils were accessible. One of the problems associated with education and health boards is that they are inaccessible. Some 16% of the population consulted a local councillor in the past year, and 21% have contact with their local councils. The local councils reflect and reinforce people’s sense of place and community. The public use the council as their first point of contact. People go to their local council for issues that are not even the responsibility of the council, because they identify it with the local area. Under the proposed model, which would take the “local” out of local government, the new councils would lack local identity and, as many Members have already said, result in the loss of accessibility. At present, most residents have easy access to their town hall, but in future they may have to travel 40 or 50 miles. That is contrary to the spirit of the European Charter of Local Self-Government. Her Majesty’s Government have not adopted this charter in respect of Northern Ireland, but there is no reason why the principle of subsidiarity should not apply here as it does in the rest of the UK and throughout Europe. As people become more remote from the decision-making process, they are less likely to vote, which leads to the loss of democratic accountability. In Northern Ireland, turnout is at least double that achieved in larger authorities in England, which have a particularly low participation rate. In the UK, few people vote in local government elections, because they do not see it as being relevant to them and they do not identify with the large authorities. Supporters of the 11-council model argue that critical mass needs to be significantly increased if councils are to be given additional responsibilities. That raises the question of the significance of additional powers given to local councils. Even if the powers exercised by local government prior to the Macrory Report were to be transferred to local councils, populations of 100,000 or more would not be required. Take, for example, the present situation in Scotland and Wales: although those countries have a Parliament and Assembly respectively, the local authorities, of which few represent populations of 150,000 or more, possess full powers, including control over education, roads and planning. It seems that populations of 100,000 are more common; indeed, one third of councils in Wales and one quarter of councils in Scotland represent populations of less than 100,000, but they possess full powers over services that our councils do not. In England, 138 councils represent populations of less than 100,000, including Rutland County Council, which has 34,000. However, that council has powers over education, social services, housing and planning. There is no reason why our councils should not have the same powers. There is no optimum size for local authorities. In each case a number of factors, including population, geography, identity and history, should be taken into account. In adopting the 11b model, it is clear that the Executive have accepted the need to have a critical mass of 100,000 and, at the same time, to equalise populations as much as possible. That is a bureaucratic number-crunching model which totally ignores traditional boundaries and allegiances. Instead, the new councils should reflect local communities, which have a wide range of populations. In Wales, Cardiff Council represents a population of 305,000, whereas Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council represents 55,000; in Scotland, Glasgow City Council represents a population of 570,000, whereas Shetland Islands Council represents 21,000; and in England, Birmingham City Council represents one million people, whereas Teesdale District Council represents 24,000 people. It appears that in Northern Ireland we want all our councils to be exactly — or close to — the same size. However, council areas in the rest of the UK are based on their natural boundaries, not on a number decided by some bureaucrat and used as a critical mass for providing services. Having said that, I accept that we are going to get model 11b, but we should be concerned about how it is executed. I am particularly concerned about the last Local Government Boundaries Commissioner; his review was carried out by a company, Laser-Scan, and referred to sophisticated technology, such as mapping, spatial technologies, and ortho-photography, but did not mention anything about traditional boundaries, local communities or social cohesion. Some very strange decisions were made, because traditional boundaries were ignored. If we are going to adopt model 11b, we must have maximum flexibility. We must allow local councils to remain within their natural boundaries. However, it makes sense for the natural boundaries of Belfast to expand. Not all councils need to have 100,000 or 200,000 electors. For example, if we take into consideration the natural boundary of Fermanagh, a new council could be created. However, the problem is that the rigid directives set down in the Bill need to be reduced, so that there is as much flexibility as possible to reflect natural boundaries. Finally, we in the Green Party believe that decision-making should be close to the people. I cannot support the Bill, as it will take decisions away from local communities. Mr B McCrea: There was a time not so long ago when a certain group of people chanted that it was time to get it right. They said that we should not rush things and that we should take time to get it right, but miraculously their view has changed. Now their chant is that we should do things as quickly as possible and not worry about the consequences. That is an issue. I declare an interest as a member of Lisburn City Council. Hopefully, in the future, there will not be a dual mandate between those who sit on local government bodies and those who are Members of the Assembly. I am grateful to Dr Farry for clarifying the point that I made to Brian Wilson about the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner making only minor changes, and that we are not looking for someone to make wholesale changes. If that were the case, we would not specify option 11b — we would simply say that there will be 11 districts and let the commissioner choose. We are giving political direction. Some of us find certain precepts within that direction quite incredible. Brian Wilson referred to the arbitrary figure of 100,000 electors, but the number of electors varies from one council area to another. In Fermanagh District Council, there are about 50,000 electors. The Newtownabbey/Carrickfergus areas are much tighter. However, there is no doubt that there is a sense of identity in Fermanagh, and that should be protected. I raise that point because it is fundamental to my concerns about the matter. During a previous debate on the issue, the Minister of the Environment said that she would address Members’ concerns about the inclusion of certain areas, such as Castlereagh. My concern is — and perhaps she will address the point in her closing remarks — that if we do not give a clear steer to the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner that he can consider making substantive changes, he will be left simply tinkering round the edges. During an earlier intervention, I raised the issue with Alex Maskey about whether it is sensible to include Rosetta along with Moira. Some Members thought that I had made a mistake, but not so. The point that I was making was that if an arbitrary ward could move to another jurisdiction, where exactly does one draw the line? I am sure that Members have received their folders containing a map of the proposed wards. Members will see that there is some difficulty, as Rosetta ward, with an electorate of 3,427, is just beside Cregagh ward, with an electorate of 3,363. There is an arbitrary line through the middle of that area, which does not make sense, as one group of citizens would get their services from Belfast and another group would get their services from Lisburn. Are you getting ready, Sammy? 12.30 pm Mr S Wilson: I am sorry to intervene. Mr B McCrea: That is OK. You may intervene a couple of times. Mr S Wilson: I am sure that it will be the first of many. Does the Member accept that the whole point of having the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner, as I pointed out earlier, will be to focus on cases where, if there were to be a boundary discrepancy, a case could be made to the commissioner to deal with that anomaly? Mr B McCrea: I thank Sammy Wilson for his intervention. It strikes at the core of the matter, which is that people should be able to make representations — for example, that urban parts of Castlereagh identify more closely with Belfast than they do with Lisburn. Lisburn is a city; it has a sense of identity and community, and although we like Castlereagh, and the people there, it may be stretching things to claim that it should be included in the Lisburn district electoral area. If we could be assured that the commissioner will try to look after local communities and local identities — if his or her remit is that broad — some issues could be resolved. This debate has been useful in addressing that point, so I thank Sammy Wilson for raising the matter. As regards gerrymandering, I agree that it is occurring. Sammy Wilson very helpfully produced a definition of gerrymandering — it means producing a set of boundaries in which a certain political outcome is required. It appears to me that natural geographic and community affinities are being ignored in an attempt to try to achieve a balance, and I do not think that that is fair or helpful to the ongoing development of Northern Ireland. My fear is that the Assembly is abdicating responsibility on this issue — it is rushing the Bill through. The Assembly is saying that the matter will be put into the hands of a commissioner and that it will not be discussed here — so that we will not have to confront some of the very real issues facing our society. I would much prefer to have talked with Members about what makes sense — I will not run away from some of the more difficult issues. There are issues about the political make up of Belfast that we should talk about; and who better to do so than Assembly Members — particularly once it is clear that they will not be local government councillors also. I am grateful to a number of Members, Brian Wilson in particular, who provided a considerable amount of detail — several times, in fact. However, the issue is this — as local government accounts for only 5% of public-sector spending and, therefore, does not actually do very much, why we are going through this process? What we are trying to do is to increase participation and get better engagement from citizens. The aim is to coalesce around a sense of identify so that the democratic process is enhanced. In the process of achieving that enhanced democratic process, an issue arises regarding making savings. I have severe doubts as to whether the process will actually deliver any savings — it will end up costing us money. The question must be asked — why are we doing this if it is going to cost us money? If there are going to be no benefits for the community, and if situations arise that are difficult to understand, the process is doomed to failure. That is an important point to highlight. It is important that the citizens of Northern Ireland understand what is being discussed. They will not understand why areas such as Castlereagh, Lisburn and Moira should be linked. The issues that emerged when Larne and Ballymena were discussed — earlier, Larne was to be linked with Glenavy or with Dunmurry — it just does not make sense. It just does not make sense. A Member: That is not part of these proposals. Mr B McCrea: Yes, but they were discussed earlier. We really want to find out where the local community sits on the proposals. Mr S Wilson: Will the Member give way? Mr B McCrea: I was waiting for Sammy to intervene. Mr S Wilson: The Member keeps getting these matters wrong, and I hate having to correct him. Even under the seven-council proposal, the linkages involved Newtownabbey, Antrim, Lisburn and Carrickfergus. Larne never entered into the configuration. The Member mentioned Larne’s being linked with Glenavy, but Larne was never part of that connection. I do not mind the Member illustrating points, but for goodness’ sake, will he illustrate them properly and not mislead the House? Sorry, I am not allowed to say mislead the House. Do not confuse us. [Laughter.] Mr B McCrea: I apologise for confusing Mr Wilson. Mr McNarry: I would not apologise for that. Mr B McCrea: I am apologising because he has been very nice. Anomalies exist in the proposals. It would have seemed reasonable to link Larne to Carrickfergus. If it is not reasonable to do so, that issue must be taken on board. Similarly, people in Dunmurry are particularly concerned about whether Dunmurry will be classed as part of Lisburn or of Belfast — or of west Belfast for that matter. Many areas have particular issues. It would be useful if we could accept in principle that we should try to consider geographical areas that are meaningful to people who live there. In turn, it is to be hoped that those areas will be coterminous with the council areas in which services will be offered. The Minister may be able to give some reassurance on that matter. It is regrettable that Mr Alex Maskey is not in the Chamber. He seems intent on politicising the matter. He does not seem to care what the boundaries are, as long as legal safeguards are in place. His entire speech was a political fudge, and such fudging has been the problem with the entire process. This proposal is a political fudge by a cosy coalition that is more interested in maintaining power and avoiding any form of election than in improving local government or serving the people of Northern Ireland. I was about to sit down, but if Mr Sammy Wilson, who is noticeably quiet at the moment, wants to have one last go at me, I will take an intervention. I have outlined what is really going on. The debate concerns not local government but the Assembly and political gerrymandering. It ill behoves Members to support the motion. Mr Deputy Speaker: Both Members thoroughly enjoyed the debate. Mrs Foster: I thank most Members for their contribution to this important debate. I again emphasise that the Bill is an essential and urgent step towards bringing our local government arrangements into the twenty-first century. I will deal with some issues that Members raised, because some need answered well. Alastair Ross started the debate and talked of the importance of moving ahead, and he mentioned the DUP position on the seven-council model. He also talked of the need for checks and balances in new governance arrangements, which will, of course, come before the House for full consideration. Cathal Boylan continued the theme of checks and balances. He also mentioned the need to enhance service delivery. Service delivery is the key to everything that we do. Our citizens are the important element in all aspects of RPA, and it is important to have service delivery centred on them. Roy Beggs commented on the long process of local government reform. He said that the Ulster Unionist Party felt that local government should be strengthened and renewed. He felt that local communities and identities were satisfied only by being based on Westminster parliamentary boundaries. I completely and utterly disagree with those remarks, and research will back me up. Mr Beggs: Will the Minister give way? Mrs Foster: If the Member lets me finish my point, I will give way to him. Research backs up my position. When initial research was being conducted, people were very clear about the fact that their local identity was not based on Westminster parliamentary boundaries or local council boundaries. In fact, they felt connected to much smaller areas, and those findings have been reflected in some of the considered speeches that we have heard about townland areas. Mr Beggs: I thank the Minister for giving way. Although I stated a preference for the 15-council model, will the Minister acknowledge that, if there were to be 11 councils, the area comprising Larne, Carrickfergus and Newtownabbey in my constituency would be a more natural geographically linked area? I did not refer exclusively to what the Minister said previously; I said that if the 11-council model were to be adopted, better geographical units could be created. Mrs Foster: I am sure that the Member will make those points to the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner when he or she is appointed. The Member indicated that he felt that having 15 councils was a more appropriate model; indeed, several other Members made that point. A 15-council model would delay implementation incredibly, as it would mean that little and larger parts of councils would be taken, as opposed to entire or major parts of councils. That would create great difficulties for asset and liability splits because smaller parts of councils would be taken rather than larger parts. The Member’s point about the Grand Orange Lodge was completely fallacious. I would have thought that living in Carrickfergus, he would have been a member of the County Antrim Grand Orange Lodge. However, perhaps the Carrickfergus Orange Lodge has declared a unilateral declaration of independence (UDI) of which I was not aware. David Ford moved on to look at model 11b and stated that he needed me to spell out why that model was chosen. It was selected for several reasons, including the service delivery scale; the desirability of councils having common boundaries with other organisations; coterminosity, which I will come back to; equality; social need; rural issues; population distribution; and employment patterns. Other reasons included access to services, given the existing public-sector infrastructure; local identity; the influence of natural geography in creating communities; rating the wealth base of possible council areas; and the influence of other key strategies, such as A Shared Future and the regional development strategy. Mr Ford recognised that it was always going to be difficult to have one-to-one coterminosity with major service providers. However, we have been working with the other service providers to find a way to deliver services to the new local councils effectively. I believe that we can do that. Examples of how that works in practice are the new health and social care trusts that the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety established. The Minister has made it clear that he is willing to work towards a model that can provide the accountability that is necessary for local government. We had hoped that the police would wait before establishing new policing districts, but they decided to proceed. However, I understand that they may revisit their decision, and I have already held a meeting with the Police Federation about the issues that have been raised. Mr Ford also referred to the boundaries of the “big banana” as opposed to the “small banana”. All I can say is that I am glad that he is not naming the new councils and that someone else is dealing with that. [Laughter.] There are issues about the naming of the new councils, and the Member knows that the Local Government Boundary Commissioner will present the names of the new councils, but that is entirely open — Dr Farry: Will the Minister elaborate on the process of the naming of the new local councils? The previous time that the Boundary Commissioner considered names, Lord Rooker had already allocated a name for the commissioner to consider. The commissioner took the approach that if he found a better name, he would consider changing it, but in the absence of that, the existing name would remain. The names that were suggested were not linked to identity but to big concepts such as the south-eastern region, inner Belfast and outer Belfast. Can the Minister ensure that a proper process will be implemented to devise the council names and that unlike in the previous period, when the public made no suggestions, we can have a proper debate on the matter? Mrs Foster: That was the point that I was going to develop before the Member intervened. The Local Government Boundaries Commissioner will make recommendations about names or he or she may simply decide to number the names. Essentially, it will be up to the new councils to determine their names. In my view, that is the proper way to do it, as it provides local ownership of the names. Mr Ford raised an important point about the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner and the District Electoral Area Commissioner. Before the previous review of local government boundaries, the Department and the Northern Ireland Office discussed that issue, and whether work could be done at the same time. The Northern Ireland Office introduced legislation to allow the District Electoral Area Commissioner to be appointed earlier, rather than wait until after the Local Government Boundary Commissioner had been appointed, so that the two commissioners could be in post at the same time. 12.45 pm As Mr Ford will be aware, the District Electoral Area Commissioner was not appointed because of the impasse in respect of local government. I am happy to discuss that issue with the Member. I hope to ensure, with the Secretary of State’s assistance, that the District Electoral Area Commissioner will be appointed much sooner than next year. Progress can be made on that matter. I have listened to the Mr Ford’s comments about the District Electoral Area Commissioner, and I hope that I have also responded to his and his colleagues’ questions on that matter. Discussion also focused on what is meant by the term “readily identifiable”, which is included in schedule 4 to the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 and is part of the remit of the Local Government Boundary Commissioner. That term does not have a specialised meaning — it has not been given a definition. I hope that the commissioner will be able to take evidence during his consultation on what people on the ground consider to be readily identifiable boundaries. If people believe that a point needs to be made about social cohesion, and that it is readily identifiable on the ground, I cannot see why the Local Government Boundary Commission could not take that on board. Mr Gallagher discussed contracts. In particular, he mentioned Craigavon Borough Council’s legal services. I understand that the majority of councillors are in a similar position in respect of legal services. That has certainly been my experience of local councils. In any event, the modernisation legislation will deal with that matter. The Strategic Leadership Board is examining the issue of procurement. Given the day that is in it, that is no bad thing. Mr Gallagher also raised the issue of assistant commissioners. It will be for the Local Government Boundary Commissioner to decide whether there is a need for assistant commissioners — I would have thought that there will be. The commissioner will also decide the assistant commissioners’ responsibilities. If the commissioner decides that assistant commissioners are needed, he or she will make a request for their appointment to |