Northern Ireland Assembly Tuesday 25 September 2007 Private Members’ Business: Ministerial Statement: Private Members’ Business: Private Notice Question: Private Members’ Business: The Assembly met at 10.30 am (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClarty] in the Chair). Members observed two minutes’ silence. Action on Child Poverty Mr Deputy Speaker: The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to two hours for this debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to wind up. All other Members will have five minutes to speak. One amendment has been selected and published on the Marshalled List. The proposer of the amendment will have 10 minutes to propose and five minutes to wind up. Ms S Ramsey: I beg to move That this Assembly regards as unacceptable the current level of child poverty; and calls on the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to confirm its commitment to the eradication of child poverty by 2020; and to provide an action plan with clear targets and measurable outcomes to ensure that all children are lifted out of poverty. Go raibh maith agat. I welcome the opportunity to debate child poverty, as it is one of the most serious and pressing issues that our community and society face. I intend to ask the Deputy First Minister a range of questions, and I hope that he will answer them in the time available. If not, he will have a copy of the Hansard report and he or his officials can contact me either in person or by letter. From the outset, I should say that I have no problem in accepting the SDLP amendment, and I hope that it and the motion will have clear support across the House. At present, 124,000 children in the North live in poverty, and that figure is 3% higher than in 2006. Those children live in our communities and our neighbourhoods in families that are living on only 60% of the average family’s income. They will go without many of the things that their friends take for granted, and they will experience the loss of dignity and choice that poverty too often brings. Moreover, those 124,000 children will do less well in school. From their early years and through primary school, children who live in poverty are disadvantaged and do less well. Children who live in areas of high deprivation score less well on verbal skills and early number concepts. Moreover, at primary school, there are clear differentials in test scores between children who live in poverty and those from more affluent backgrounds. By the age of 11, almost 40% of pupils in deprived areas will have failed to reach level 4 at Key Stage 2, compared with 23% of pupils overall. Among children on free school meals, 30% get few or no GCSEs, compared with an average of 14% among all 16-year-olds. Even more concerning is the fact that, although that trend has continued for the past 10 years, little progress has been made on narrowing the gap. Failure to help those children who live in poverty to do well in school has huge repercussions for their ability to find a route out of poverty. Those with few or no qualifications are twice as likely to be unemployed, and 50% of those who find work are in low-paid employment. Living in poverty also affects children’s health. Statistics produced by the Chief Medical Officer in June 2007 show that the infant mortality rate in the most deprived areas is 33% higher than the average in the North and that children born into poverty are four times more likely to die before the age of 20 than those born into more affluent families. The rate of teenage pregnancy is much higher in areas of greatest social and economic deprivation. In the most deprived areas, seven out of every 1,000 girls aged 13 to 16 will give birth: in other areas, the figure will be two out of every 1,000. Teenage mothers and their babies face a much higher risk of infant mortality, low birth weight and post-natal depression. The effects of poverty on individuals, families and communities make it essential for the Minister, on behalf of the Executive, to give a clear commitment to achieving the target of halving child poverty by 2010, on the way to eradicating it fully by 2020. Will the Minister provide that clear commitment? Will he also confirm that children and poverty will be a priority in setting the public service agreements and funding allocations? In particular, can he assure us that the Executive will give the highest priority in their funding allocations to spending on various services for children and families? The amount that is spent on those services is directly related to poverty. That our child-poverty levels remain high is not unrelated to the fact that we spend a third less on children’s services here than is spent in England and Wales. Furthermore, will the Minister commit to reviewing the targets that are outlined in Lifetime Opportunities to address the needs of those children and families most in poverty and to putting in place the targets and funding that are required to make that commitment a reality? The current range of targets is too general and unfocused to address the needs of those children. The Assembly must be seen to take effective action on addressing poverty. For that to happen, we need a clear strategy and plan. Will the Minister confirm when that plan will become available? We know that particular groups of children and families are much more likely to be living in poverty. Children from families in which no adults work are at most risk of severe poverty. A family of two children and two adults currently receives £204 a week in benefits, and a lone parent with two children receives £170 a week. Those benefit levels fall below the Government’s poverty line. About 44,000 children live in severe poverty in the North, and they require urgent help to address their needs. The Government should commit to putting in place a funding programme that will provide additional support and resources for children who live in the most severe poverty and in the most deprived areas to help improve their life chances. That could be done through the creation of children’s zones, which, by co-ordinating a funding programme that addresses education, parenting, health and employment needs, would focus on improving children’s life chances in specific areas. Such a programme would make those children in the most severe need the centre of help in their communities. Will the Minister commit to a programme of policy and funding that is aimed at creating children’s zones to address the needs of children who live in severe poverty? Other groups of children that are most at risk of poverty are those from families in which either a parent or an adult has a disability. Will the Minister confirm that new targets for the Lifetime Opportunities strategy will address the needs of families with disabilities? Specifically, will a programme of action consider and address the additional cost of disability, and review the opportunities for disabled parents and disabled young people to access training and employment as one mechanism to reduce the level of poverty? Will the Minister confirm that, as well as the life-cycle approach undertaken in the Lifetime Opportunities strategy, the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will co-ordinate a range of actions across all Departments to address, in a holistic way, the needs of those most likely to be in poverty? In conclusion, I thank the Minister for his response to a number of questions during yesterday’s Question Time, in which he set out the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister’s commitment to addressing this issue. This is a timely debate, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. Go raibh maith agat. Mrs D Kelly: I beg to move the following amendment: Insert after “outcomes” “, supported by a dedicated budget,” I thank the proposer of the motion for accepting the amendment. I, too, welcome this important debate, which, in the light of recent tragic suicides, provides a timely reminder of the need for comprehensive action to protect our children and young people. The welfare of children is a particularly significant issue for the Assembly. All the parties represented in the Chamber stood for election on the promise that they could do better for our young people than the direct rule Administration. Therefore, we cannot simply ignore this issue; we must ensure that it is in the mainstream throughout all the decisions that we take. We must be informed consistently as to the success of the actions that we take, and we must adapt and improve policies gradually if we are to have a chance of eradicating child poverty by 2020. Yesterday, the Deputy First Minister acknowledged the statutory obligations of the Assembly, particularly those of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, with respect to the eradication of poverty and the provision of a more inclusive and equal society. I welcomed his comments; however, he failed to address the matter of a dedicated budget. Previously, the Lifetime Opportunities strategy had no dedicated budget and no clear evaluation process or action plan. That is another reason why the SDLP welcomes this debate and has tabled an amendment to tie down a dedicated budget. If child poverty is not tackled on moral grounds, it should be tackled on economic grounds. Along with the shocking misery that child poverty entails, it creates a needless waste of resources, tying up health services with the treatment of preventable illnesses, resulting in underachievement in schools and greater reliance on state benefits. The SDLP has a proud record of prioritising the tackling of disadvantage, and that will remain its focus until all children can be assured of having their basic needs met and of the opportunity to develop their full potential. The statistics are well rehearsed, and I want to address the significance of those statistics and the failure to begin the work necessary to remedy them. TSN and New TSN have not had dedicated resources, and nor has there been adequate accountability to ensure their effective implementation. Now, the Lifetime Opportunities strategy has no dedicated budget. The children’s fund, which was established during the last period of devolution, has been scrapped. Children make up more than a quarter of the population; however, only a fraction of overall funding is spent on children’s services. We are not starting with a blank sheet: a substantial amount of work has already been done by the community and voluntary sector and, in particular, by the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People (NICCY), on the type of action plans and policies that are required. For example, in a briefing paper for MLAs, NICCY states: “NICCY recommends an audit of existing spending within the new Trusts to assess if the needs of children and young people in Northern Ireland are being met in all Trust areas. Assessing expenditure on children’s health services proved extremely difficult as funding is often tied up with other spending across the community and hospital settings. In other research, NICCY has uncovered problems such as a post code lottery in the delivery of services such as speech and language; has identified areas of unmet need across Northern Ireland and has identified barriers in accessing services outside the Belfast area, in areas such as specialist mental health support and in the provision of sexual health services.” NICCY recommends that further research should be commissioned into socio-economic inequalities in educational attainment, because it believes that the current policy is failing pupils from socially deprived backgrounds and that a change in policy is required. 10.45 am An opportunity to further reduce the pupil:teacher ratio has been presented by the falling school rolls; and that is what should be recommended, rather than school closures. NICCY recommended that the Department of Education should develop and implement a policy of having smaller class sizes, as research has shown that that has a positive effect on achievement. In 2005-06, £179 million was spent on provisions for children with special educational needs in Northern Ireland, and from 2005-06 to 2006-07, an additional £53 million was provided. Therefore, NICCY recommended that the Department of Education should measure and evaluate whether that funding has been spent effectively. As the sums involved are huge, there must be accountability, and it must be demonstrated that the special educational needs of children are being met. Poverty is not just to do with lack of resources. However, our efforts will come to nothing without a dedicated budget to address that lack of resources. Equally important is the need to ensure that there is joined-up working on the issue in areas such as housing, health, childcare, social care, education and recreation. Tackling child poverty requires the focused attention of every Department in some way and merits teamwork on a scale that we never imagined through all our years of conflict and division. The whole point of having the Executive programme funds was to address the gaps and divisions between Departments and encourage interdepartmental working in a way that remains absolutely necessary. Let the eradication of child poverty be at the top of our new political agenda, foremost among the aims of our Programme for Government and central to our efforts to work together for our community. Mr Spratt: I support the motion. As elected representatives, it is our duty to act now to better the lives of children. On many occasions, the House has discussed this issue and questioned the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. Members are discussing the matter once again — it is an issue that will not go away. As other Members have said, the current level of child poverty in Northern Ireland is unacceptable. It is also unacceptable that that level exceeds the rate of child poverty elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Although we can all agree that that is the case, and we can stand in the House and quote statistics, and say time and again that we find the current situation unacceptable, we have to ask what real action we are taking to actually make a difference to children’s lives in Northern Ireland. The effect of poverty on a child’s life is so widespread that we must ensure that everything possible is done to enable us to aspire to the 2020 target. The effect of poverty on children is heartbreaking. For many families, the inability to afford a new school uniform has caused difficulties in the past month. The poor diet that is attributed to families in poverty contributes to high levels of obesity in children in Northern Ireland. Poverty affects the formative years of a young life and has been shown to increase the likelihood of exclusion from school and low educational achievement. Poverty affects an individual’s entire life. With that in mind, we must ensure that every child is given the opportunity, regardless of social background, to reach his or her full potential. More than 124,000 children are being brought up in poverty in Northern Ireland — that is 124,000 too many. It is quite clear that more must be done. First, we must reaffirm our aspiration to eradicate child poverty by 2020. To do that, we must get to grips with the root cause. In Northern Ireland, thousands of people have been lifted out of poverty in the past eight years. However, although that is welcome, a closer look at the statistics shows that those who benefited started just below the poverty line and those who were worst off have remained in the same position. Child poverty is a manifestation of the more deep-rooted problem that is societal breakdown. Evidence shows that deprivation is often passed down through generations. If a family’s income is benefits based, it is likely that the children of that family will grow up to be long-term recipients of benefits. Educational achievement follows a similar trend: if a parent has been a low achiever, a child is also likely to be a low achiever. The keys to eradicating child poverty are to break such a cycle, to remove the dependence on the state, and to reinvigorate the family as an entity. Those goals cannot be achieved by simply throwing money at either parents or children; the family unit must be repaired, the grip that crime and drugs have on communities must be broken, and education must be promoted. It is only when those measures, alongside measuring accurately the levels of poverty in specific areas and formulating particular policies to address them, are implemented that we will get to grips with the real root of the problem and have any chance of meeting the 2020 target. I support the motion and the amendment. Mr Elliott: Like other Members, I congratulate the mover of the motion for securing the debate on what is an important matter. I also congratulate the mover of the amendment. As we study the motion, it is important that we remember the definition of poverty as the Government accept it. That definition states that a child is deemed to be in poverty if the household income is below 60% of the UK median. I sometimes wonder whether that calculation will ever increase; if 60% is the accepted figure, obviously, a significant number of children will always be in poverty. Using that definition, a recent Government report found that in Northern Ireland up to 120,000 children live in varying degrees of poverty, as has been mentioned already. If we add to that the number of children who are deemed to be living in deprivation, the figure increases to 160,000. Those figures are highly disturbing, given that in 1999, the Prime Minister pledged to end child poverty within a generation. A start has been made: in the UK as a whole, 600,000 children have been removed from states of poverty. However, more needs to be done, including here in Northern Ireland. If the targets of halving child poverty by 2010 and eradicating it by 2020 are to be met, action must be consistent and not dip in and out of dealing with the matter. Government policy must focus on such steady action. It is important for us, as a regional Government, to choose a focal point from which to tackle child poverty. I mentioned the 120,000 children who live in poverty; however, that figure drops by more than 50% if the target group changes from including children living in general poverty to those who live in severe poverty. When we shift the focus, the number of children in Northern Ireland whose situations require what we would term immediate action decreases to approximately 44,000. We must also ask what the difference is between immediate and longer-term action. Differentiating between levels of poverty does not take away from the overall problem. However, if we were to make such a differentiation, the Assembly and Executive could execute a more strategic plan to help those who are in the most immediate distress. To attempt to tackle an issue of this scale in a single move could lead to miscalculations of judgement and prove erroneous in the long run. Child poverty is too important for us to make mistakes; therefore, if we break the challenge into sizeable pieces, we can be more efficient in our actions and more successful with our long-term aims. Up to 1·5 million people in the UK live in severe poverty. History dictates that children born to parents who are in long-term receipt of benefits are more likely to be long-term recipients of benefits themselves. That point was highlighted by the previous contributor to the debate, Mr Spratt. We must adopt a bottom-to-top approach. Based on the definition that I mentioned earlier, some 600,000 UK children who have been freed from poverty since 1999 began life just below the poverty line. We cannot forget about the poorest people in our country, and, by starting with them, our task will be made easier and we will make greater progress towards completely eradicating child poverty. There have been several failings in the Government’s attempts to deal with child poverty. Notably, the Government missed their own 2004-05 target of reducing child poverty by 25%. They have also failed to reduce the number of children who are in severe poverty, with one in five children in the UK still living in a persistently poor household. I wonder how many people in the wider community know what it is like for those children and households who live in poverty. Do those children sometimes have to go without the basic essentials of life such as the food and clothing that many in our community take for granted? Those children cannot have the essentials that the rest of us take for granted. Mrs Long: I thank the Members who are responsible for tabling both the motion and the amendment. They have created the opportunity to debate this important matter. In common with many other Members, I became involved in politics not least because I wanted a fairer and more equal society, but I wanted governance whereby principles of social justice guide and underpin our decisions and priorities. Any society is ultimately judged on how it treats its most vulnerable. Our response to child poverty is a tangible measure of our commitment to equality and social justice. The fact that levels of child poverty have risen in Northern Ireland in the past year provides a stark backdrop to the debate. The UK Government introduced their strategy on child poverty — with a view to halving it by 2010 and eradicating it by 2020 — after the publication of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation study ‘What will it take to end child poverty? Firing on all cylinders’. That study indicated that poverty in the UK remains higher in relative terms than in all but three of the other 24 EU member states, with around 2·5 million to 3·5 million people living below the poverty line, depending on the precise measure that is applied. The UK has one of the worst rates of child poverty in the industrialised world. In Northern Ireland, a range of contributing factors, including a higher-than-average cost of basic goods, such as fuel, food and clothing, the worst levels of low pay in the UK, higher levels of disability, and larger household size combine to make the problem particularly acute. As the cost of accommodation in Northern Ireland, which was traditionally lower than the UK average, continues to rise rapidly, the financial burden on local families will be compounded further. Child poverty not only has massive implications for children who are raised in poverty, it has significant long-term implications for wider society. Educational low attainment not only stops a child from reaching his or her full potential — which is, in itself, a major failing — but restricts the ability of that child to maximise his or her earning abilities in adult life, thereby perpetuating the poverty gap through generations. We cannot ignore the loss of revenue caused by missed taxes and the payment of benefits due to the reduced future employment and earnings prospects of those who grow up poor. Similarly, poor nutrition in childhood has a significant impact on life expectancy and the individual’s long-term health, with all the personal and financial consequences for the individual and wider society that that entails. Investment in the eradication of child poverty is, therefore, not only a moral imperative, but makes good economic and social sense. Poverty is often a hidden problem in Northern Ireland, and, as the gulf between rich and poor continues to grow, many people are struggling to reach a decent basic standard of living. If both parents are on benefits, their household income will automatically place them below the poverty line. However, sources have estimated that the majority of poor children — 54% — live in a household in which at least one adult is in work. That statistic is clearly linked to the low-pay culture that affects many families locally. In light of those figures, any reduction of the national minimum wage outside of London would clearly serve to push more families deeper into poverty, rather than lift them out of it, and must, therefore, be resisted robustly by the Assembly. 11.00 am The second report of the House of Commons Select Committee on Work and Pensions on child poverty, from 2003-04, recognised that if the Government are to cut child poverty levels, they need to increase efforts across all the Departments whose responsibilities touch on the issue. As Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, I recognise that, although it is that Office’s responsibility to formulate policy in those cross-cutting areas, the responsibility for delivery more often than not lies with a range of other Departments and under the control of other Ministers. We must, therefore, ensure collectively that an effective mechanism for scrutiny exists, not only of the overarching strategy, but of the individual contributions that Departments make in delivering on those objectives. Given that such co-ordinated action from a number of Departments is required, child poverty will be effectively addressed only if it is clearly identified as a high-level Executive priority. For that to be meaningful, the Executive must, at the earliest opportunity, formally endorse the targets that are outlined in the motion and formulate a clear strategy for the delivery of measurable outcomes, so that child poverty can be formally prioritised in the current Programme for Government, comprehensive spending review and budgeting round. Without a dedicated budget, we will be offering people little more than tea and sympathy, as Dolores Kelly said. Time is, therefore, short. We need to move on the issue urgently if we are to avoid condemning another generation of children to a childhood in poverty and a future of limited opportunities. I, therefore, endorse the motion and the amendment. Mr Shannon: I support the motion and thank the Members who tabled it. The issue is close to my heart and to that of many other Members. I begin with an example. A seven-year-old child slogs his way through the busy street, remembering to hold tightly the hand of his little sister. He carries her schoolbag through the door. She looks at him and asks, “Is there anything to eat?” He knows that payday has not come yet and there will be nothing to be found, so he says, “We are being healthy today — just water.” That sounds like an advert asking people to sponsor a child in Africa, but, in fact, that story is played out in the Province every day. That child is among the one in seven children who do not get three meals a day. It is as basic as that: children are going hungry and not getting the nutritional food that is vital to their health and development. They are given free school meals — in a surprising number of cases, that is the only decent food that they get each day. What is poverty? According to Dictionary.com, it is: “the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor”. In Northern Ireland, that is the life of 29% of the children whom we represent — well over 100,000 people who are all too often hungry. That figure has risen by 3% since last year. Even more shocking, one in 10 children is growing up in “severe poverty”, which equates to 44,000 children in the Province. If statistics are needed, they are clearly there. Northern Ireland is known for its generosity in giving to the needy. Therefore, how is it that some of our own are being neglected? That is a serious question that cannot be answered by citing any one factor. Basic items such as fuel, food and clothing are more expensive here than in other parts of the United Kingdom. The levels of pay are not as high here as they are on the UK mainland. Throw into the pot the fact that, by and large, families are larger here as well and the reduction in child support for each additional child leaves us with a meal that is not so palatable. Few could argue with the statistics. If anyone is unsure that the situation is as bad as it is made out to be, they should talk to the teachers and dinner ladies, who see a lot. Talk to the youth workers in the Girls’ Brigade or the Boys’ Brigade: they will be able to point out a child or two who does not have it easy and for whom they bring in extra snacks and food. Some youth workers have told me that they have seen children who cannot afford the 50p weekly contribution and whose “I forgot” excuse is lost behind the embarrassment in their eyes. Those kids should not be ashamed — they should be taken care of. A full stomach and clothes that fit are basic human rights that too many are not getting. It has been shown that families in which only one or neither parent works are at higher risk of living in poverty. Those are only some of the factors. As I have said before, if there is an illness or disability, whether mental or physical, the family is under more pressure and more strain to ensure that the affected person has what is needed, while the rest of the family scrape by. It is said to be 25% more expensive to raise a child with disabilities, and yet the wages here are not high enough. Many parents have to leave work so that they can cope, and, therefore, the problems are compounded rather than eased. The rest of the children in the family lack attention and some necessities, as their parents struggle to give all their children some semblance of life. Around 56% of households with one or more people with disabilities are living in poverty. That is also true when a family member has cancer. Cancer affects one in three people — and those statistics were mentioned in a recent debate. Many families do their best to keep their loved ones at home. They buy the necessary food, keep the heating on all day to ensure warmth, pay for hospital parking — sometimes for all day — take time of work and pay for prescriptions. That all adds to the emotional and financial problems of families already on the breadline. Child poverty is a sad reality in the Province, and it must be addressed. We must implement a system to set goals to ensure the eradication of child poverty in this generation. That is not impossible — it can be done. We have a duty to help the 100,000 children who are living lives of worry and shame and with parents who are depressed about their lack of money. We are a nation known for its generosity when disaster strikes other regions. Let us see to our own nation with the same mentality and honesty and do all that we can for our children. I support the motion. Miss McIlveen: Figures vary on how many children are defined as living in poverty in Northern Ireland. Current Government figures from the family resources survey state that 130,000 children live in poverty. The households below average income figures for 2005-06 show that around 124,000 children live in poverty. Other sources place that figure in and around 100,000. Whatever the figure, it is clear that a problem exists. ‘Severe Child Poverty in the UK’, a report by Save the Children, revealed that 44,000 children in Northern Ireland experience severe poverty. That means that families are getting by on less than £7,000 a year, which is £12,000 a year less than the national average income. Such families feel socially excluded. Children living in such circumstances are not eating healthy food and are not living in well-heated conditions. Last week, the Assembly discussed the impact that fuel poverty has on children, and this debate goes hand in hand with that. Children need to be given the appropriate launch pad in life: warm homes, healthy food, a quality education and job opportunities. That is the only way to stop the cycle of poverty and benefit Northern Ireland as a whole. Save the Children has called for the following measures: the introduction of seasonal grants to help those families on low incomes to cover expensive times of the year; investment of £4 billion from central Government; an action plan on severe child poverty to ensure that policies are targeted at those in severe poverty; significant resources to promote take-up and knowledge of benefit and tax credit entitlements; and reform of the social fund to ensure that it is an effective anti-poverty tool. Those are noble, but short-term, measures that will address the symptoms but not the cause. Northern Ireland has more of its population not in paid work than any other region in the UK: 30% of our working-age population are not in paid work. Amazingly, according to statistics from the labour force survey, only 7% of those people want to work. Action must be taken immediately to assist those in severe poverty, but we must also be mindful of creating a benefit-reliant society and of creating the perception that people would be better off not working. There is no simple solution to the problem that we face in Northern Ireland. We need a comprehensive plan for addressing poverty, which must include, not only additional support for those most in need, but the creation of an environment in which those who are able to work, but do not want to, are persuaded to work and acquire the appropriate skills and qualifications to contribute to society. We also need to educate those children and young people about family planning so that they do not inadvertently fall into the poverty trap. The rate of teenage pregnancies for girls aged between 13 and 16 is three times the average. That is both a cause and a consequence of health inequalities and social exclusion. Childcare provision must also be reviewed to facilitate lone parents and those families whose non-working parent wishes to contribute a second income to the family. The barriers that prevent parents from obtaining and keeping employment must be removed. I have not forgotten those people who cannot work. Some have been left scarred by our divided society, and others have long-term debilitating illnesses. Society has a duty to care for and provide as comfortable a life as possible for those people. The Northern Ireland Executive are committed to halving child poverty by 2010 and to eradicating it by 2020. That is a huge task, and I look forward to hearing what plans the Deputy First Minister will offer to fulfil those obligations. Mr Beggs: I support the motion and the amendment. I must also declare an interest as a member of the New Horizon Sure Start committee, which operates in Carrickfergus and Larne. I thank Barnardo’s, Save the Children and the Assembly’s Research Services for their guidance on this subject. Recently, we failed to meet the UK target of reducing child poverty by 25% by 2006. There must be more than paper strategies to achieve that, and other, more ambitious, targets, by 2010 and 2020. Specific actions and monetary commitments are required to enable that to happen. How can child poverty be eradicated? The Labour Government in Westminster laud the child tax credit as their main mechanism for eradicating child poverty. In 2004-05, they indicated that over £3,000 had been added to the incomes of qualifying families in Northern Ireland. Giving additional money is an easy way to lift children out of poverty. However, that is not within the gift of the Assembly, and, owing to budget gaps, unfortunately, it also seems to be difficult for HM Treasury to address. Barnardo’s has stated that barriers to work exist. The best way that I can see of tackling child poverty is for the Assembly to assist individuals into education and, ultimately, work so that they can reach their full potential and benefit their families. On the subject of employment, Barnardo’s has stated that there must be a review to examine the best way of supporting second earners into the labour market and that that support would be one more way of lifting more families out of poverty. It also said that the introduction of the full jobcentre plus programme and the New Deal for families would enable more parents, particularly lone parents, to return to work. It is within the gift of the Assembly to make funding available for such a scheme in Northern Ireland. A devolved Assembly is capable of other actions. Previously, there was the Executive programme fund for children and young people, which ended with the demise of the first Assembly. In 2006, there was a ministerial announcement of a funding package of £100 million for children and young people. With only six months until the end of that funding, which has enabled a great deal of positive work, there is concern in the voluntary and community sector because there has been no news of what will replace it. That funding is important because, on many occasions, it was cross-departmental and allowed Departments to think differently and work more effectively, so I hope that the Minister will be able to tell Members what will happen with that. I have worked with other Members on the all-party group on children and young people. A recent letter from the Minister of Finance and Personnel stated that: “Central funding streams, by their very nature, are intended to provide support to specific projects for a finite period only.” Funding would then be reassessed. I wish to highlight the fact that it took a considerable time for a Sure Start group that I am involved with to make leasing arrangements with education and library boards and, after we had a building, to get staff. It takes time for such actions to bed in. Sufficient time must be given to determine whether the results are satisfactory. I hope that sufficient time will be given, so that the positive work of that scheme can be seen to bear fruit. 11.15 am Education and parental support is the best way forward. Government must assist people to improve their children’s lot, to give them better educational attainment and qualifications and, ultimately, to contribute to the economy. In that way, they will rise from their situation of poverty. I hope that funding will continue to be available to enable some of the most deprived children in our communities to reach a better level of attainment. The Chairperson of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister (Mr Kennedy): I apologise to the House and to the proposers of the motion for my absence during the earlier part of the debate. I am afraid that I was caught out by the change in timings. As Chairperson of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, I welcome the opportunity to debate this most important issue. In this day and age, the level of child poverty in Northern Ireland is deplorable and unacceptable. The statistics paint a very depressing picture. In recent questions for written answer, the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister said that in 2002-03, approximately 26%, or 114,000 children, were living in relative income poverty. Although the figure was slightly reduced in 2004-05 to approximately 24%, or 101,000 children, the numbers are alarming. A report published this year by Barnardo’s also showed the severity of the problem by stating that: “There are currently 100,000 children living in officially defined levels of poverty in communities across Northern Ireland. A further group are living in severe poverty; around 44,000 children and young people will be missing out on regular items that the rest of the community see as essential”. The statistics are clear: the problem is huge, and action must be taken now. Some people might say that action is being taken. Lifetime Opportunities, the Government’s anti-poverty and social inclusion strategy for Northern Ireland, which was launched in 2006 under the previous direct rule Administration — and is, according to the Deputy First Minister’s answer yesterday, being considered by the Executive — pledged to halve child poverty by 2010 and end it by 2020. Those are ambitious, and worthy, goals. However, questions are already being asked about the ability of the strategy to achieve them. The Committee has raised the issue of child poverty with the Children’s Commissioner and several organisations, and has identified it as one of its key priorities. The Committee’s concern is such that child poverty will be the subject of its first inquiry, and terms of reference for that will be considered at its first meeting tomorrow. Although I do not want to pre-empt the Committee’s considerations and decisions on the shape of the inquiry, I hope that it enables us to focus on the capability of the current strategy to achieve its ambitious goals and that it will provide us with an opportunity to identify further key actions in the remit of the devolved Administration that can be taken to tackle child poverty. I also hope that the inquiry will be short and sharp, enabling the Committee to report to the Assembly on this most important issue at the earliest opportunity. I welcome the commitment given by the Deputy First Minister in June that the anti-poverty and social inclusion strategy is an absolute priority for him and for the First Minister. The Committee will scrutinise the draft Programme for Government and the draft Budget to ensure that tackling child poverty has been given the cross-cutting priority that it deserves and that the necessary resources are provided to ensure that the plans can be fully implemented. We will be looking for actions and resources that back up that commitment. As an Ulster Unionist representative, my personal view is that, although the overall goals of the anti-poverty strategy are commendable, the lack of definitive short- and medium-term targets and actions and a detailed implementation plan means that the challenge that those goals present is unlikely to be met. Specific areas of concern for me, with regard to the strategy, include the proposals for the development of only four children’s centres. That number is, in my view, totally inadequate, and I hope that as part of the Budget discussions, the issue will be given much more priority and the planned number will be greatly increased. As a former Chairman of the Committee for Education, during a previous mandate of the Assembly, I was keenly aware of the poor levels of numeracy and literacy skills, and the associated problems of educational underachievement. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The Member’s time is up. The Deputy First Minister (Mr M McGuinness): Thank you, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank all the Members who contributed to the debate. I welcome the opportunity to address the House on the important subject of child poverty, and, in doing so, I hope that Members will be reassured that both the First Minister and I take the issue seriously. Poverty, and particularly child poverty, is an emotive subject — and rightly so. Many of today’s contributions were undoubtedly heartfelt. Over 120,000 of our children are recognised as being in relative poverty. Of that number, almost half are from one-parent households. Furthermore, when the statistics are examined more closely, they show that, in addition to the 120,000, there are another 46,000 children deemed as being at risk of poverty. Those figures equate to almost 28% of the total child population, which does not compare well to our European neighbours. The best figures in Europe are around 10%. Poland is worst off, coming in only marginally above our figures at 29%. Taken as a whole, the average in England, Scotland, Wales and the North is 22%. The average in the Republic of Ireland is around 23%. Those statistics are staggering, by any standards, and are an indictment of how we, as a society, have gone about tackling such issues in the past. Statistics, though, do not tell the whole story. I want to take a moment to put those figures in context for Members, and to explain what being in poverty, or at risk of poverty, actually means to the individuals concerned. It means not having the money to provide for some of the basic necessities that the rest of us take for granted. It means not being in a position to take part in educational or leisure activities that are seen as developmental. By way of an example, I will highlight a case study that recently came to my attention. A lone parent, who left her job because of childcare problems, recently said that she really has to watch her money. She cannot just walk into a supermarket and buy what she wants. She looks at what is on offer and what she can afford, not what is healthy. If the choice is a bag of apples or a packet of sausages and a loaf of bread, she chooses the sausages and tries to make a meal with them for a couple of nights. She struggles on her own with children, trying to get by. The children come first, and she copes by doing without. At a time when everyone is looking to the Assembly to make a positive difference in their lives, it is vital that the Assembly does not lose sight of those in our society who are most in need and that we address that need as a priority. Child poverty cannot be considered in isolation. Poverty and all its manifestations are a blight on society and an issue that both the First Minister and I are absolutely committed to tackling. When we speak of child poverty, we are talking about children in our society who live in families that have an income below, or close to, that considered as placing them at risk of poverty. It is not too great a stretch of the imagination to recognise that lone-parent households feature prominently in that group. Some 45% of adults in lone-parent households are classed as economically inactive, a fact that practically guarantees that children from those families will be among the most disadvantaged in our society. Consequently, we have examined factors which impact on lone parents and contribute to their social exclusion. That work has been greatly influenced by the policies and approaches taken in other jurisdictions that have shared their experiences through, for example, the British-Irish Council. That work is nearing conclusion, and I hope to report to the Executive on its findings and recommendations in the coming months. Action to improve the opportunities and life chances of lone parents will undoubtedly have a significant impact on levels of child poverty here. Poverty is not just about income; as I have said, children from disadvantaged backgrounds are at greater risk of underperforming educationally and of suffering from poor diet and poor housing conditions. Together, these factors place the next generation at risk of not achieving its potential and, therefore, of not benefiting from economic growth and rising prosperity. Members must recognise that, in order to break the recurring cycle of inter-generational disadvantage, we need to tackle aspects of poverty and social exclusion that impact on society from childhood and throughout life. Tackling child poverty will ensure that we treat problems at source and, I hope, prevent poverty, as well as providing a route out of it. The Executive do not control all the policy levers necessary to tackle child poverty. Tax and benefit policies are not matters for this Administration, and it is generally accepted that tax credits, in particular, have greatly helped in reducing child poverty in recent years. We do, however, control many other important policy levers. In that context, we need to look at ways to maximise job opportunities and enhance the skills and education of those who can participate in the labour market; ensure that people get the benefits to which they are entitled; improve public services for all; and provide support for parents during key transition phases in the lives of their children. It is, ultimately, for the Executive to agree on the priorities in tackling poverty. The Executive have a statutory duty to do so, specified in section 16 of the St Andrews Agreement Act 2006, which requires the Executive to: “adopt a strategy … to tackle poverty, social exclusion and patterns of deprivation based on objective need.” Just prior to the restoration of the Assembly, Peter Hain launched Lifetime Opportunities, the Government’s strategy for tackling poverty and social exclusion. That strategy was the result of the previous devolved Administration’s commitment to review the New TSN policy work that had continued during suspension. Prior to restoration, the shadow Committee on the Programme for Government looked closely at Lifetime Opportunities and took evidence from a wide range of stakeholders. The conclusions are important and the Executive must have regard to them when they decide the future direction of policy. In particular, the Committee felt that Lifetime Opportunities, which used a life-cycle approach, provided a good framework for addressing poverty and social exclusion. However, the Committee wanted to see it strengthened in a number of ways. It felt that the strategy and its main goals and priorities should be adopted by a restored Executive, but wanted to see greater emphasis on the specific needs of certain groups, such as disabled people and lone parents. The Committee agreed with the strong views of many from whom it took evidence that the strategy would be greatly improved with the adoption of specific short-and medium-term targets, action plans and indicators, so that progress in reducing poverty could be properly measured. The Committee also highlighted the importance of resources to implement the strategy properly and recommended that resources be skewed towards disadvantaged areas, including small pockets of deprivation and individual poverty. In bringing specific recommendations to the Executive Committee, the First Minister and I will pay close attention to the conclusions of the shadow Programme for Government Committee and the representations that have been made to us by organisations. 11.30 am We are anxious to use this unprecedented opportunity to tackle the problem of child poverty once and for all. Although the strategic approach that we decide on will be important, ultimately, it will be the actions taken across the full range of Government programmes that will make the difference to people’s lives. Those areas include education, health, employment, housing, transport and rural development. Several issues were raised in the course of Members’ contributions. Sue Ramsey mentioned the review of the targets in the Lifetime Opportunities strategy. As I have stated, the First Minister and I are examining Lifetime Opportunities with a view to bringing proposals to the Executive to discharge our statutory duty under the St Andrew’s Agreement. Part of that process will be to examine the targets and indicators that we set to tackle poverty. Dolores Kelly referred to a dedicated budget, which is the subject of the amendment. I want to ensure that resources and efforts are targeted to help those most in need. The Executive must agree on priorities for tackling poverty to secure the best results for all children. The process of agreeing the Programme for Government is well under way and will be subject to Executive approval. All Ministers, including Margaret Ritchie from the SDLP, will be involved in implementing the Programme for Government, and the amendment will be noted by all Members of the Executive as that work goes ahead. I welcome the interest in child poverty from the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, of which Danny Kennedy is Chairperson. I look forward to the outcome of its inquiry, and I will be happy to consider its findings as part of our considerations for the Lifetime Opportunity strategy. Along with a number of other Members, Dolores Kelly mentioned educational disadvantage and the work undertaken by the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People, Patricia Lewsley. The First Minister and I have met with the Commissioner, whose work is undoubtedly valuable, and whose relationship we believe to be important. Dolores Kelly also mentioned accountability as regards special educational needs, which ultimately comes back to the Assembly, and the electorate. Jimmy Spratt spoke about low educational achievement, and how poverty affects children, particularly in relation to obesity. He also spoke about the root causes of child poverty and the need to break the cycle of poverty, with which I agree. Naomi Long explained eloquently that her motivation in opting for a political career was to improve the living circumstances for citizens, particularly the most disadvantaged. I have no doubt that every Member of the Assembly is driven by the same motivation and that all Members are anxious, not just to debate the issue of eradicating child poverty, but to make real progress. Jim Shannon spoke in a heartfelt way about how unemployment affects child poverty, and described the difficulties, and the cost, borne by cancer sufferers and those with mental and physical disabilities when attending hospital services. He spoke about the duty all of us must recognise to do everything that we can for all children, with which I agree absolutely. Michelle McIlveen mentioned those who are unable to work due to illness and other circumstances. Members are conscious of how that can affect citizens. I agree with everything that Roy Beggs Jnr said when he spoke about the need to encourage more people to become economically active and the importance of Sure Start and education. In conclusion, the First Minister and I want to see child poverty halved by 2010 and eradicated by 2020. I want to see child poverty prioritised in the public service agreements. The First Minister and I assure Members that in our recommendations to the Executive Committee, we will stress the need to set clear targets and measurable outcomes, and implement specific actions through departmental programmes. With continued economic growth and political stability, there is possibly the best opportunity that there has been for decades to lead the fight against poverty and social exclusion. I assure the House that the First Minister and I intend to take the matter forward as a top priority. Mrs M Bradley: I support the amendment. I want to acknowledge the contribution that Members have made to the debate. Different Members discussed different aspects of child poverty, but we all have the same view. The Assembly is at one on this important matter, and I welcome the Deputy First Minister’s attendance at the debate. Poverty has wide-ranging consequences for families. It causes stress, depression and suicide, which can be attributed to a lack of self-esteem, self-respect, life achievements and goals. The economic situations of many must be improved. As politicians, we must not ignore people’s basic rights to live a content, happy life and to have enough to get through without hardship and long-term financial worries. Shantallow is an area in the Foyle constituency, which I represent, where the level of deprivation is at 70%. It is neither good nor decent for people to have to live in those circumstances. When he was the Deputy First Minister of the last Assembly, my party leader created the children’s fund. Sadly, it was removed during direct rule. It must be reinstated. I welcome the Deputy First Minister’s comments. However, I am somewhat disappointed that he told the House that budgets would be noted. That is not enough: there must be a guarantee from the Deputy First Minister. Dolores Kelly said that the Assembly is not starting from scratch: the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People’s report has given it a good starting point. Sue Ramsey seeks clearer targets, and she gave the House many statistics. Jimmy Spratt said that every child deserves the same opportunities. Tom Elliott wants child poverty to be eradicated. Naomi Long discussed high levels of disability, poor nutrition and its effects on health. She also referred to the gulf between the rich and the less well off. Michelle McIlveen mentioned the warm homes scheme and low incomes. She said that funding of £4 million from central Government is essential and that there must be a comprehensive plan. Jim Shannon mentioned larger families and said that Members should talk to teachers and dinner ladies to get a feel for the poverty that exists: some children cannot afford to bring 50p to school and thereby miss out on certain activities. Roy Beggs said that sufficient time must be given to allow plans to work, and he asked that funding be continued. Danny Kennedy said that child poverty is one of the most important issues in society and that it is deplorable that it is at such a high level in Northern Ireland, where one in five children lives in poverty. The Deputy First Minister told the House that he takes the matter seriously. I do not doubt that. It is terrible that some people do not have enough money to buy necessities that are taken for granted by others. The Minister said that he recognises that and that budgets will be noted. However, the Assembly wants guarantees. His attendance at the debate is welcome. I thank everyone who took part. It was a useful debate and shows that the Assembly is trying to work together for a common aim. When that happens, it is successful. Politics does not come into the situation when there are children going hungry. I am glad that there is consensus on this, and I hope that the Assembly’s aims will be achieved. Ms Ní Chuilín: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom tacaíocht a thabhairt don rún. Mary Bradley is correct: it has been a good debate, which has shown that there is a desire among Members to eradicate child poverty. I welcome the motion and the focus that it has brought to the issue in the Assembly. The Minister has given it particular attention. There is consensus that the issue must be dealt with and progress made. I also remind Members of the failure to address properly the poverty that so many children and families in our communities experience. That failure means that those children are not ready to participate fully in schools; therefore, they feel that they have failed in education. It is for us, not them, to improve their lives. It also means that children leave school with few, or no, qualifications, and that they cannot — or will not — see a clear route to a better future through productive learning. Every Member who spoke in the debate touched on that point. Jim Shannon talked about the humiliation experienced by children who have to make excuses for not having money to pay for school activities. None of us can ignore that. The failure to address poverty also means, as most Members said, that children will suffer ill health and will be at greater risk of having accidents. They will also be at risk of being part of the increasing rate of teenage pregnancies that is prevalent in the most deprived areas. Teenage pregnancies often result in a cycle of poverty and social exclusion. Parents who face generational poverty, to which Jimmy Spratt referred, have not found a route out of their poverty, and we must provide that route for them. What does all that mean? It means that good policies can make a difference. The Assembly — and the Executive in particular — can begin to implement specific measures that will address the needs of people here who live in long-term poverty. It means that we should make clear commitments to achieve the targets of, first, taking 50,000 local children out of poverty by 2010, and, secondly, eradicating all child poverty by 2020. We must create opportunities to make children who live in the most deprived areas ready for school and able to achieve when there. It means that it is essential that we implement and invest in the kinds of initiatives that will have an impact on all the problems that I have discussed. It also means that we need to fund initiatives that will allow children in the most deprived areas to achieve educationally and will permit social development. As Sue Ramsey mentioned, we must create specific children’s zones. That will involve commitments from many Ministers, including the Minister for Social Development; the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety; the Minister of Education; and the Minister of the Environment. However, we all have a responsibility in the matter. Funding strategies need to be initiated to assist lone parents to get back to employment by providing them with the correct support, advice, and, importantly, access to affordable childcare and transport. Again, those strategies will involve the Executive. It means focusing on those families that are most at risk. In particular, we need to look at the kind of support that is needed to allow disabled parents to have access to work and to enable young disabled people to receive meaningful training and gain employment. We need to focus on how we can help low-income families at those times of the year when they face financial difficulties. Many families who receive free school meals find that school holidays are a time of survival. Making once-a-year — or twice-a-year — payments to poor families at those difficult times could make a significant difference to their quality of life. We are talking about the eradication of child poverty. Naomi Long is 100% correct when she says that we must use terms such as equality and social justice when talking about child poverty. We must consider the matter in a human-rights context. The cost of living is higher here, and we have higher levels of disability, and increasing accommodation costs. Many families, through lack of affordable or social housing, have to find private accommodation, often having to pay the rental shortfall themselves. That in turn puts additional pressure on them. Geographically, we have more areas of deprivation and more areas that face higher and multiple levels of deprivation. For example, people who live in areas of multiple deprivation and interface areas also experience higher levels of violence, suicide, and self-harm. As Dolores Kelly, Mary Bradley and other Members have mentioned, those people may experience reduced self-esteem and self-confidence. We must examine the links between poverty and ill health, and between poverty and poor emotional health. 11.45 pm Michelle McIlveen spoke at length about the Save the Children research, and all that research is simply sitting there. We need to take action and remove the barriers. Danny Kennedy talked about that in his capacity as Chairperson of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, and as a party member. There are concerns about the lack of childcare centres across the North. The Deputy First Minister, on behalf of the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, spoke about people not having the means to provide the basic necessities, and that often means having to choose between heating or eating — particularly at this time of year. We talked about that in the Assembly last week. It also involves having to make other choices — for example, the choice between spending money on basic necessities or on healthy food, or on leisure activities that many of us take for granted, such as swimming. It is a constant struggle. We cannot look at child poverty in isolation — we must look at the benefits system and whether aspects of it may need to be reformed. The St Andrews Agreement talked about child poverty, social exclusion and the need to deliver services based on objective need. Resources will have to be skewed to take account of that objective need. I agree with other Members’ remarks that we must go beyond the sentiments of these debates, worthy though they are. We are here to take part in such debates, but action needs to be taken, too. I welcome the input of all the Members today. We must consider how we can eradicate child poverty, and the Assembly must monitor any action taken. We must ensure that we move forward to improve the lives of all our children, not just some, and ensure that they are protected and cherished. I support the motion, as amended. Question, That the amendment be made, put and agreed to. Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Resolved: That this Assembly regards as unacceptable the current level of child poverty; and calls on the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to confirm its commitment to the eradication of child poverty by 2020; and to provide an action plan with clear targets and measurable outcomes, supported by a dedicated budget, to ensure that all children are lifted out of poverty. Mr Deputy Speaker: Members will know that the Business Committee has arranged to meet at lunchtime. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 1.30 pm, when the Minister for Regional Development will make his statement. The Minister for Regional Development (Mr Murphy): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I accept that it is up to the Business Committee, in conjunction with the Speaker’s Office and the Business Office, to structure the business for the day. However, could you perhaps advise the Business Committee that both the Minister of the Environment and I are available to make our statements. It is not through our activity, or inactivity, that the statements cannot be taken before the lunch break. Mr Deputy Speaker: I thank the Member for his point of order, and the Business Committee will be notified of his remarks at 12.15 pm. The sitting was suspended at 11.48 am. On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) — 1.32 pm North/South Ministerial Council: Transport Mr Speaker: I apologise to Members for the absence of the Deputy Speaker. I have received notice from the Minister for Regional Development that he wishes to make a statement on the North/South Ministerial Council meeting on transport. The Minister for Regional Development (Mr Murphy): Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. In compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following report on the third meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) in the transport sector, held in the Manor House Hotel, Killadeas on 14 September 2007. The Executive were represented by the Minister of the Environment, Arlene Foster MLA, and me. The Irish Government were represented by the Minister for Transport and the Marine, Noel Dempsey TD. The Council noted and welcomed the progress made since the previous meeting in April 2002 and the opportunity to meet to discuss opportunities for cross-border co-operation in strategic transport planning and road safety. The Council discussed the steps necessary to make progress on the A5 and A8 major road projects. Members will be aware of the Irish Government’s intention to make £400 million available to help fund the provision of dual-carriageway standards on routes in the North serving the north-west gateway and, on the eastern seaboard, the completion of the dual-carriageway corridor from Belfast to Larne. I welcome that substantial investment, which will help fund an unprecedented package of major road improvement schemes in the North. The dualling of the remaining sections of the A8 on the eastern seaboard corridor will provide an improved connection between the ports of Larne, Belfast, and indeed, Dublin. A dual carriageway from Derry to the border at Aughnacloy will provide an immense economic opportunity for the north-west. Journey times between the north-west and Dublin will be significantly improved, and road safety will be enhanced. Those projects, combined with the current dualling programme on the A6, will greatly improve transportation links between Ireland’s major cities. The Council agreed the steps necessary to make progress on the A5 and A8 projects. It agreed the payment process, taking into account that progress on the A8 will be the responsibility of the Executive and their agencies. The Council also agreed to the formation by October 2007 of a management structure for the A5 project to evaluate and monitor progress as required, and the early appointment of consultants to enable a route corridor study of the A5 to commence. The Council noted and welcomed the Irish Government’s intention to fund the replacement of cross-border bridges at Annaghroe and Knocknaginny on the Tyrone/Monaghan border. The replacement of those bridges will enhance cross-border linkages and the social and economic well-being of the immediate vicinities on both sides of the border. Construction work is expected to begin in 2008, and Roads Service will play its part in improving approach roads in the North and co-operate closely with Monaghan County Council officials to ensure that work is co-ordinated. The Council noted the Irish Government’s proposal for the construction of a bridge at Narrow Water, linking County Louth and County Down. The Irish Government have granted funding to Louth County Council to undertake preliminary technical work on that proposal. They will keep the matter under review and will draw on the results of the technical work when they are available. The rail link between Belfast and Dublin is a key service, joining two major population and commercial centres. The link is designated as part of the Trans-European Network of rail services across the European Union. The success of the current service is a credit to the close working relationship that exists between Northern Ireland Railways and Iarnród Éireann. That continuing co-operation will be invaluable in bringing about further improvements to the service. The Council noted the discussions that were taking place between Iarnród Éireann and Translink on plans for the further development of the rail link, and it agreed to consider the outcome of those discussions at the next NSMC meeting in the transport sector. Any such development will include options for the short and medium term, including limited-stop services, hourly frequency, removal of speed restrictions, and introduction of new rolling stock. The timing of the implementation of those plans will also be considered, and they will be phased in to take account of the availability of resources and the operational issues that are involved. The Council recognised the importance of transport services to cross-border communities, and it welcomed the fact that the Department of Transport and the Marine and the Department for Regional Development were jointly supporting research into that area. That study is intended to help us to understand the barriers that exist to the development of cross-border community transport and to identify the level of demand and need for those types of services. It should also point to actions that can be taken to encourage cross-border co-operation in the provision of services. The Council noted that the report from the study is expected to be completed soon, and it agreed to consider the recommendations of that report at the forthcoming meeting of the NSMC in the transport sector. The Council agreed that the next meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council transport sector should take place in December 2007. Go raibh maith agat. The Chairperson of the Committee for Regional Development (Mr Cobain): I thank the Minister for his statement. It raises a number of interesting issues that I am sure the Committee for Regional Development will want to discuss in more detail. What contribution will the £400 million make to the overall cost of the A5 and the A8? How does the Minister plan to manage the construction and land-price inflation of those schemes, which are big issues for the Committee? Will he describe the remit, responsibilities, and membership of the management structure that he proposes for the A5 project? Mr Murphy: Although the Irish Government will contribute to the construction of both roads, the management and payment structures mean that that Government will contribute to the building of the A5 on the understanding that the Northern Executive will contribute to that of the A8. Details on how much those will cost will emerge from the route-corridor study, which will show how land is owned in what will be the final corridors for both roads. Therefore, the final figure for the cost of the roads will not be known until that study has been completed. The A5 project involves North/South interfaces in at least two parts of the road. The cross-border steering group, which has been in existence and has been dealing with cross-border projects since 1999, has the same type of management structure that was in place when the A1 Dundalk to Newry road was successfully delivered. That type of management structure involves the National Roads Authority, county councils and Roads Service. The proposition is to proceed with the A5 project on that same basis. The group will convene next month, and it will begin to work with consultants in developing the route options. That work will in turn identify more closely the cost of the project. Mr Dallat: I thank the Minister for his statement, particularly the reference to the Dublin to Belfast rail link, given that improvements are needed on that link. What plans are there to begin serious discussions on the future of the Belfast to Derry line as an obvious extension to the Trans-European Network? Mr Murphy: There was a substantial discussion on the improvements that could be made to the Belfast to Dublin line, and both Administrations expressed a desire to move towards an hourly service. The Belfast to Derry line was not on the agenda. However, the Member will be aware that the Department has submitted a bid to upgrade the line, which is an improvement on the previous position when, under direct rule, it was decided merely to maintain that line. The Department’s proposed upgrade will form part of the Budget discussions later in the autumn. I hope that the bid will be successful. The Department’s intention is to invest in the railways, because it is clear that where such investment has been made, passenger numbers have increased, which also makes an environmental contribution. Although the subject was not on the meeting’s agenda, it is prominent on the Department’s agenda. Mrs Long: After the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister made their statements, I asked them about the Derry line. There is particular interest in that line because of its implications for tourism in the north-west and its strategic link to Donegal. I am interested to know whether it is intended to extend the line, acting on a cross-border basis. Having such good transport links would mean that benefits should accrue from the Republic of Ireland’s side too. Mr Murphy: Members keep asking me about a rail connection into Donegal, but I have yet to hear the Southern Government mention it. People in the north-west are, generally, keen on the idea. They told me that there was once more railway track in Donegal than in any other county in Ireland, and now there is none. People in the north-west, on both sides of the border, strongly desire that the connection go through to Donegal. However, my Department’s priority is to try to invest in the line from Belfast to Derry. I am not being partitionist in my approach — far be it from me to be so. However, other than a general desire expressed by people in the area, the Department has not yet officially heard from the Irish Government whether they have any plans to invest in a railway line in Donegal. I know that they are rolling out a strategy over a considerable period that includes some ambitious plans. I am happy to discuss the subject with them. The Department wants to invest in the Belfast to Derry line and is keen that there should be investment in rail and other forms of transportation. Mr Kennedy: I thank the Minister for his statement. He referred to the replacement of cross-border bridges on the frontier between County Tyrone and County Monaghan. Given the strength of local opposition to current Government plans for the bridges, particularly the one at Annaghroe, will the Minister undertake to meet local associations and groups and give due consideration to their concerns? The Irish Government appear to be making all the running on the proposed Narrow Water bridge project. The Minister is aware of the concern in many quarters about the provision of a bridge at Narrow Water, not least of which is the concern of Warrenpoint Harbour Authority. Its stated preference is for the more sensible proposal, of which I know he is aware, for a Southern relief road to deal effectively with cross-border traffic and traffic going to, and leaving from, the busy port of Warrenpoint. Will the Minister tell the House which of those two projects his Department supports? Will he move, albeit belatedly, to dampen the enthusiasm for the development of a bridge at Narrow Water that would clearly be incapable of solving the road problems that affect Newry, Warrenpoint and cross-border traffic? Mr Murphy: I agree that it would be beneficial to hold a public consultation exercise on the bridges between Monaghan and Tyrone. However, the proposals must be sufficiently developed to allow that to happen. Monaghan County Council is going through a tendering process to select an appropriate consultant to take forward the design of those projects. When preliminary proposals have been sufficiently developed, the Roads Service in the North will hold a public information day towards the end of the year to allow for public consultation on the projects. 1.45 pm In relation to the proposed bridge at Narrow Water, the Executive, in agreeing the Council’s papers, took note of the fact that the Dublin Government are paying for a technical study to be carried out through Louth County Council. We will take account of those findings when the study is completed. A study is also ongoing into the traffic situation around the southern end of Newry and, particularly, the traffic that is generated by Warrenpoint port and by commuting traffic on the Southern side of Newry. The Roads Service has undertaken that study, and it has been going on for some time. However, it will be completed in the spring. Members mentioned that the officials who are conducting both studies should share their information, so that they are aware of each other’s studies. Those studies are not competing projects, as that would lead us into negative territory. There are desires on both sides of Carlingford Lough for a connection to be made so that people will not have to travel through Newry. Some of those desires relate to tourism potential, because a connection at Narrow Water would have an impact on tourism in the Cooley Peninsula, the Mournes, and the eastern seaboard generally. There would also be an economic impact for south Down, as strategic traffic could link directly to the A1/M1 road. We should examine the studies as they develop and see where that takes us, rather than getting into the situation of having competing projects. The Irish Government have indicated their desire to build a bridge at Narrow Water, and they are engaged in a study, through Louth County Council, to bring forward thinking on that. We should consider that, and consider traffic surveys on the Northern side of the border to try to come up with a project. We should not close our minds to anything at this stage. We must consider a way forward that will deal with all the concerns, including tourist traffic, strategic traffic, port traffic and congestion issues in and around Newry. Mr P J Bradley: The Minister has partially answered my question. I thank him for his statement and for the meeting that he facilitated last week with business people from South Down who support the bridge project. As the Minister rightly said, the project is threefold. There is a social dimension to it. My office is about half a mile across the water from Omeath, yet I do not know anyone in Omeath or in the Cooley Peninsula. From a social perspective, we simply do not know our neighbours. Reference was made to the economic impact of the project. Last week, we met members of the business community who were large-scale investors in the area. One investor had vehicles going daily to Dublin; another proposes to build a 60-bedroom hotel with chalets; and another is building chalet accommodation to support his already existing hotel. So, from an economic point of view, there is a great need for a bridge. I do not expect the Member for Newry and Armagh Danny Kennedy to know Warrenpoint, because he does not live near there, but I differ with him regarding the traffic in Newry — Mr Kennedy: Is there a question? Mr P J Bradley: There is no question yet, but there will be one. Mr Speaker: Order. Mr P J Bradley: I am merely providing information for the Minister. A bridge at Narrow Water would divert traffic from the centre of Newry, as it would make its way to the south and west of Newry by crossing the bridge and travelling via Carlingford or past the Carrickdale Hotel. I do not wish to put the Minister on the spot, but will he go on record to state his commitment to the bridge, specifically at this time? I am conscious of the Minister’s earlier answer, but I presume that he is not against a bridge at Narrow Water. Mr Murphy: The Member has rehearsed the arguments that he and others made to me at a meeting about the bridge, and I accept them. As I told him at that meeting, I have heard arguments from others who have different priorities in that area, such as access and transportation. It is incumbent on us to consider all the arguments and decide how best to develop them. The present position — which was agreed by the Executive, and subsequently by myself, the Minister of the Environment, and the Minister for Transport and the Marine in the South — is that the North/South Ministerial Council has noted the Irish Government’s desire to bring the project forward, and its contribution to a study on the project by Louth County Council. We have undertaken to look at the issues that are reported in that study. That is the position that was agreed before and after the North/South Ministerial Council meeting, and that is where we stand. Mr Beggs: I thank the Minister for his statement, but hope that he can provide some further detail. In the early part of his statement, the Minister said that the necessary steps to progressing the A5 and A8 major-road projects were discussed and later agreed, along with the payment process. Will the Minister tell the House what those necessary steps are? What are the payment processes? More importantly — for commuters, road users and those who live along the route — what is the time frame for completion? Is it five years, 10 years or 20 years? Such basic facts should be in the public domain. Regarding the Trans-European Network, the Minister said that there was discussion about the Belfast to Dublin rail link. Was there discussion about improving the Larne to Belfast section of the Trans-European Network, where there are speed restrictions and old rolling stocks? Mr Murphy: The Member will appreciate that there was a formal agreement between the Executive and the Dublin Administration — that the A5 and A8 road projects would benefit from a £400 million injection from the South towards their construction — at the plenary meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in Armagh, and that that was the first opportunity for such an agreement. The two projects are linked together to go forward. That was the beginning of the process. In addition to establishing a study group to identify the right options on the A5 project, we agreed that because there is a joint-management arrangement for the A5 project, it makes more sense for the Southern Government funding to go directly into that project, on the understanding that the Executive in the North and its agencies will fund the A8 project. The two projects are linked in that regard, and that is the present situation. Identifying the right options, the costs and the time frame of the A8 and A5 projects will now gather pace, and progress can be reported as we go along. The quick and simple answer is that we do not know how long the projects will take; it can take a project six years from design stage to completion through the statutory process. There was agreement in July that the two projects will go ahead. Regarding payment options, the agreement is that the Irish Government funding, for ease of dealing with it, will go directly into the A5 — that does not mean that money will not go into the A8 project. The Department is investing in railways and stock, which has improved usage. I realise, and heard in a previous debate, that there are criticisms about the stock available on the line to Larne. Where we can secure investment, we will continue to invest in railways to improve the tracks, the frequency of service, and the comfort that people expect when they use the service. That is part of the Department’s bidding process when trying to get projects supported. I assure the Member that the Department’s commitment to investing in railways is real, and I hope that he understands that over time we will be able to give more detail about the road projects as they are developed. That is the funding arrangement for the road projects. Mr Speaker: That ends the statements to the Minister for Regional Development. I remind Members that when they respond to a ministerial statement, they must ask a question. It has almost reached the point where some Members want to make a statement in the House as well, and that in that statement there may be a question. It is important that Members ask questions and do not make statements. North/South Ministerial Council: Road Safety Mr Speaker: I have received notice from the Minister of the Environment that she wishes to make a statement on the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) meeting on road safety. The Minister of the Environment (Mrs Foster): In compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I will make a brief report on road safety issues addressed through the third meeting of the NSMC in the transport sector, which was held in the Manor House Hotel, Killadeas on 14 September 2007. As already stated, the Executive were represented by the Minister for Regional Development, who chaired the meeting, and myself. The Irish Government were represented by Noel Dempsey TD, Minister for Transport and the Marine. (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Molloy] in the Chair) The Council noted and welcomed the progress that has been made since the previous meeting in April 2002 and the opportunity to meet to discuss the potential for further co-operation on strategic transport planning and road safety. The Council discussed the position on road safety strategies and noted that a review of the existing Northern Ireland road safety strategy had been initiated, and that a new strategy was likely to be submitted shortly to the Minister for Transport and the Marine for consideration in the Republic of Ireland. The Council noted that mutual recognition of driver disqualifications between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland was expected to be in place by mid-2008. The Council noted that a study into co-operation between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland on the mutual recognition of penalty points was currently under way. It also agreed that efforts to promote road safety through joint advertising and publicity campaigns should continue and that the available evidence on the effectiveness of the existing approach should be reviewed. The Council also agreed that work should continue through the Steering to Safety project to find practical ways of improving road safety in border areas. Furthermore, it agreed that, where possible, the results of relevant road safety research should be shared and that opportunities for improving and harmonising arrangements for collecting, collating and reporting road safety information should continue to be explored. With your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to mention the latest tragedy on our roads, which occurred in Enniskillen this morning. I understand that one young man has died and a number of other people have been injured, and — as I always do — I offer my condolences to the family and friends of the victim. That tragedy reiterates to me the need to continue with our work on improving road safety — work to which my Department and I are committed. I also pay tribute to the emergency services, which, I understand, had a difficult job this morning, and I assure them that Members appreciate all that they do. Mr Weir: I thank the Minister for her statement. Are there any plans to introduce mutual recognition of vehicle test certificates? Mrs Foster: There are no plans for mutual recognition of vehicle test certificates. Vehicle testing arrangements here and in the Republic of Ireland differ in a variety of ways. The main difference is that vehicles in Northern Ireland are tested after four years, and every year thereafter, whereas those in the Republic of Ireland are tested after four years, and every two years thereafter. The longer interval between tests in the Republic would represent a significant barrier to mutual recognition, even if such a proposal were on the table. It would also be likely to encourage motorists here to go to the Republic of Ireland for vehicle testing, and that could have implications for test fees in Northern Ireland and, more significantly, for road safety. A recent report by the Department for Transport in Great Britain indicated that a two-year interval between tests would mean more unroadworthy vehicles, more road traffic collisions attributable to vehicle defects, and ultimately — and significantly, I would say — more deaths and injuries on our roads. Mr P Ramsey: I welcome the Minister’s commitment, and that of both Governments, to harmonisation, collaboration and co-operation. However, will she consider setting up an all-island road safety body? I ask that as a Member who represents a cross-border area and as someone who has a personal interest in the issue, as my brother and his wife were killed by a drunk driver in Donegal. I also have a personal interest, because my neighbouring council in Donegal has one of the highest rates of road traffic-related deaths and serious injuries. An all-island body — especially one that included victims’ groups and which co-operated in the sharing of information — would be important in reducing the number of road deaths. 2.00pm Mrs Foster: I thank the Member for his question, and I understand his special and ongoing interest in this matter. The Member will be aware that the Assembly very recently set up an all-party working group on that subject, and I hope in the near future to discuss with its members all the issues that they raise. In my statement I mentioned the Steering to Safety project, under the umbrella of Co-operation and Working Together (CAWT), which is carrying out a cross-border road traffic collision research project. That organisation is effective, in that it has already published five detailed research reports and one summary report. The project is now moving forward from developing the evidence base to considering practical steps to dealing with road safety in border areas. That is, perhaps, what the Member wanted to know. I understand that CAWT is organising a conference on 9 October, in Dundalk, specifically to examine the issue of young drivers. The Member will know that in border areas, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, the 17- to 24-year-old age group is an increasing problem that needs to be dealt with effectively. Mrs Long: I welcome the Minister of the Environment’s statement, and particularly welcome the co-ordination between the two jurisdictions. That was discussed at the meeting of the all-party Assembly group, to which the Minister referred extensively at lunchtime. Following the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications target of mid-2008, are there any plans to extend that to other European countries, given the amount of mobility that now exists in Europe? With regard to the mutual recognition of penalty points between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, co-ordination between Northern Ireland and GB on the matter is currently poor. Residents of Northern Ireland who commit motoring offences in GB have to present themselves in court in GB because their driving licences cannot be processed there as they are issued in Coleraine, rather than in Swansea. A proper, joined-up arrangement needs to be given attention. Mrs Foster: The work that the Department is doing on recognition of driver disqualification between the UK and the Republic of Ireland was actually initiated in Europe. Our two nations will be the first two areas to have that mutual recognition, so we are leading the way on recognition in Europe. I hope that we will be able to look at other areas, once that is in place; however, the Member will appreciate that these are the two most urgent areas. The mutual recognition of penalty points is a more complex issue, and there are additional difficulties, one of which is the problem of licences that are issued by Coleraine and not by Swansea, as the Member mentioned. We hope soon to receive the results of the feasibility study carried out by the Department for Transport, and those must be considered. Mr Shannon: I welcome the Minister’s commitment to road safety; however, it requires the co-operation of everyone in the Province. Over the last few weeks there has been a large increase in the number of people killed on our roads; that is very worrying. Over the past year the number of motorcyclists that have been killed is of particular concern to me and others. Does the Minister intend to introduce any strategy or policy, in co-operation with other Ministers, to reduce that number? Mrs Foster: The updated figures show that in 2005, there were 94 fatalities in Northern Ireland up to September. There were 89 in the same period in 2006, and, taking into account this morning’s fatality, the figure stands at 80 for 2007. I know that Mr Shannon has a particular interest in motorcycles. The 2007 figures for the number of deaths attributable to motorcycles are quite startling, and have caused me much concern. The number of motorcycle deaths has increased to 24, plus one pillion passenger, in 2007, compared to just 13 at this stage of 2006. Proposals for immediate road-safety benefits are to be taken forward prior to the outcome of the road safety review in which my Department is engaged. Furthermore, it is intended shortly to bring forward proposals for the introduction of compulsory basic training for all new motorcycle riders, and that matter will go before the Committee for the Environment in the near future. At present, the Department takes responsibility for assessing and training motorcycle instructors and for maintaining a voluntary register of instructors. My belief is that there would be real road-safety benefits if that register became compulsory. Mr Attwood: I welcome the Minister’s statement, which confirms the substantive body of work that has been undertaken, in the North and in the South, in respect of road safety. I have two points. First, driving disqualifications are mutually recognised, North and South, and I am aware of the feasibility study on the mutual recognition of penalty points. Is there any indicative time for that recognition? I know that it is subject to ongoing and complex issues, but it would be helpful to have that information. Secondly, has the Minister considered introducing something similar to the practice in the South of putting the number of fatalities on billboards or advertising signs in each county? Those are explicit reminders to the road user of the threat on the roads. My final point refers to what my colleague Pat Ramsey said. Does the substantive, ongoing, body of work concerning driving disqualifications, penalty points, border road safety, joint advertising and improved research, and so on, not beg for the establishment of an all-Ireland road safety body? Is that work, carried out by the Minister and her ministerial colleagues, and its importance to road safety, not an appropriate recommendation to the proposed efficiency commission for the establishment of such a body? Mrs Foster: I thank the Member for his two points, which turned into three. As I said earlier, I hope to have action next year with regard to driver disqualification. Unfortunately, I cannot give Mr Attwood a timescale in relation to penalty points. I am sure that he would be the first to bring me before the House if I did not keep to that timescale. However, he can rest assured that my officials and I will continue to push on the matter, because we want it settled as quickly as possible. We shall await the outcome of the feasibility study and take it from there. I have heard conflicting arguments concerning the billboards. Some people see them as a distraction on the roads; others say that they are useful reminders that people should take care on particular stretches of road. The Department closes its eyes to nothing that comes before it, and the suggestion will be examined in the review. Implicit in Mr Attwood’s question about an all-Ireland road safety body was the fact that good, effective work is ongoing. I want that work to continue, and I see no need to endanger it by politicising it and turning it into some sort of political football. Lord Morrow: I thank the Minister for her statement. It is poignant that it should be made on a day that another fatality occurs in County Fermanagh, and my thoughts go out to the family concerned. The period from 1969 to 2001 was euphemistically known as the Troubles, during which 3,316 people were killed. Is the Minister aware that, during that same period, 7,143 people were killed on the roads? That is almost twice as many. I understand that there is an issue about policing, and the Minister is not in charge of that — would that she were. Is it the Minister’s intention that those who break the law by speeding and who are caught across the border should be pursued and charged with the same offence on their return? I would recommend that such people be charged twice, and I would like to hear the Minister’s views on that. Mrs Foster: As the Member knows, I was not around in 1969. [Laughter.] If the figures for road deaths in the 1970s are compared with today’s statistics, then we are doing very well. Sometimes that fact is not acknowledged when we are faced with another tragedy — it should be. However, that is not to say that work to reduce the numbers killed should not continue. The Member made a point about the cross-border work of the PSNI and the Garda Síochána. Noel Dempsey commented that the work to bring people to justice should be acknowledged and that the border should not be used as a way of evading justice by those who break the rules in either jurisdiction. The work should continue so that people will know that there is no hiding place when it comes to road-safety matters. Mr Brady: Does the Minister see any merit in moving towards road signs displaying speed limits in kilometres per hour rather than in miles per hour? That would be in line with the rest of Europe and Ireland. As someone who represents a border constituency, I can see an obvious anomaly for drivers when moving from kilometres per hour to miles per hour. Mrs Foster: There are absolutely no plans to change the speed limit signs in this jurisdiction. Some Members: Hear, hear. Mrs Foster: We will be keeping to miles per hour. We continue to work with the Road Safety Authority and the National Roads Authority in the South. However, there are more important issues to be dealt with, and I hope that we have covered them today. Mr Dallat: I welcome the Minister’s statement and share the grief that another person has lost his life on the roads. I am sure that we all send our condolences to his family. The Minister indicated that there is a current Northern Ireland road safety strategy and that one is shortly to be submitted to the Minister for Transport in the Republic. Will she assure the House that those strategies will be joined up and that they will focus on young people, many of whom are victims of the slaughter that takes place on our roads day and daily? Mrs Foster: I assure the Member that we have been sharing information, and he will know that there has been a continuous sharing of information especially in relation to the advertising campaigns that have taken place. That will continue. The Minister for Transport has indicated that he will share the new road safety strategy with me — and we will be able to take on board those issues that may have implications for Northern Ireland, especially in border areas where many deaths occur on the roads almost daily. Mr Deputy Speaker: That brings questions to the Minister to a conclusion. Establishment of an Independent Environmental Protection Agency Mr Deputy Speaker: The Business Committee has agreed to allow one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose, and there will be 10 minutes for the winding-up speech. Two amendments have been received and have been published on the Marshalled List. Each proposer will have 10 minutes to propose, and there will be five minutes for each winding-up speech. All other Members will have five minutes to speak. I call Mr Brian Wilson. My apologies; I call Mr Ford. Mr Ford: Mr Deputy Speaker, I hope that the rest of our communication will be better than that. I beg to move That this Assembly calls on the Executive to establish an independent Environmental Protection Agency for Northern Ireland. This is an extremely important issue for the people of Northern Ireland. It is absolutely clear that our environment is in a mess and requires urgent attention. We are suffering from a legacy of failure, over many years, to take the necessary action to protect the environment and to recognise its role in the welfare of our people and in the development of our economy. 2.15 pm Compared to other regions of these islands, Northern Ireland’s wildlife-protection laws are extremely weak. We are seeing the disappearance of habitats that ought to be protected. Only this morning, I took a telephone call from someone who was extremely concerned that Prehen Wood, one of our few tracts of ancient woodland in the north-west, is under threat from a proposal to develop housing and build a road. The Planning Service seems to be minded to accept that proposal, and, at the moment, no agency with responsibility for protecting the environment seems to be able to influence the Planning Service on such matters, despite material considerations such as the protected status of the wood. We are also seeing the loss of historic buildings in towns and villages right across the region. It is clear that important places for wildlife are not being looked after. We are simply not designating enough areas of special scientific interest; we are not doing it fast enough; and we are not protecting the ones that already exist. At the same time, we are seeing wildlife facing — at least localised — extinction. Although we may be grateful to see birds such as the chough return to Rathlin Island this year, it is also clear that birds such as the corncrake and the lapwing are under huge threat. We all know the problems associated with the EU Water Framework Directive and the failure to deal with water wisely. We see illegal dumps blighting the countryside, despite the fact that the responsibility for policing such matters was centralised from district councils into the Environment and Heritage Service (EHS) a short while ago. It is clear that, for whatever reason, the Department of the Environment in general, and the EHS in its particular responsibilities, have not been carrying out their duties — perhaps owing to a lack of resources — on behalf of all my people. That may be a political rant, but those are not just my words; they reflect the decisions of bodies such as the Audit Commission; the Public Accounts Committees, both at the Assembly and at Westminster; and House of Commons Select Committees. It is clear that something needs to be done. I freely confess that, as a party to some of the early decisions on structuring Departments back in 1999, I accepted that we should split the then Department of the Environment in two, creating a Department that would be responsible for infrastructure and a Department with responsibility for environmental protection. There were sound reasons for doing that. Of course, that was later somewhat amended by Mr Trimble and Mr Mallon, who decided on the final departmental duties and managed to place part of the regulatory role into the Department for Regional Development so that it was not simply the Department with responsibility for infrastructure. However, that aside, there has been a failing in the Department of the Environment’s structures to deal with its responsibilities. It seems that those are failings of structures, rather than of individuals. A Department staffed by the Civil Service is not the right place to carry out regulation of environmental matters. Of course, that is no surprise, because elsewhere in these islands, we see the Environment Agency of England and Wales, which has an independent role; the Scottish Environment Protection Agency; and the Environmental Protection Agency in the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland is the only region that is out of step. Either they are all wrong, or we are wrong. Look at the litany of issues that I cited at the beginning of my speech — it is not England and Wales or Scotland or Ireland that is out of step, it is Northern Ireland that is wrong. In recent years, we have seen some movement towards the establishment of an independent environmental protection agency. That probably started with the Macrory Report of 2004. ‘Transparency and Trust’ was the title that Professor Richard Macrory used; it was about the need for environmental governance. That was then backed up by sound work by the Coalition for Environmental Protection, which led to the establishment of the review of environmental governance (REGNI) and the report that was published earlier this year, ‘Foundations for the Future’. There is no doubt that that has been backed by a huge groundswell of support from across the community, as can be attested to by those of us who have received large numbers of green “What future for her environment” postcards. The review of environmental governance examined a wider issue, but it is absolutely clear that the authors of that report saw an independent environmental protection agency as the key driver for changing environmental governance in Northern Ireland and for ensuring that progress is made. However, that was not just the view of the usual range of environmental non-governmental organisations; groups such as the Confederation of British Industry, the Quarry Products Association, and the Consumer Council all backed that call. We have seen in recent weeks that that is not just a good idea; it is now an essential idea. On 7 September 2007, in his High Court judgement on the judicial review taken against the strategic environmental assessments in the draft northern area plan and the draft Magherafelt area plan — a judgement that bears reading, even though it was rather overshadowed by another on the same day — Mr Justice Weatherup said: “By the terms of the Directive it is apparent, as the Department accepts, that there be separation between the responsible authority and the consultation body. In the present cases I am satisfied that no such separation occurred and that it was not achieved by the Planning Service and the Environmental and Heritage Service being separate divisions of the same Department. For all practical purposes there was integration between the Planning Service and the Environmental and Heritage Service in the preparation of the documents. In any event had their been a formal separation of roles between the Planning Service and the Environmental and Heritage Service I would not have been satisfied that there was sufficient separation for the purposes of the Directive while the two services remain part of the same Department and legal entity.” It could not be clearer than that. An environmental protection agency is no longer an optional extra; it is now essential in order to comply with the European directive that an independent environmental protection authority be established. By way of an aside, I note that elements of the REGNI report would have cured issues that arose in the other judgement on 7 September on whether the Department for Regional Development or the Department of the Environment was the Department responsible for Planning Policy Statement 14. The REGNI report states that the Department of the Environment should have responsibility for: “spatial planning, (including the elements which currently reside with DRD)”, as well as several responsibilities that currently reside with the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. We need to simplify the structures, and part of that simplification process — the essential part — is the establishment of an independent agency. That would be the next logical step in a process that began in 1962, when the Abercorn Report called for an independent nature conservancy council. If an independent environmental protection agency were to be set up, it would follow up on recommendations in the Balfour Report on the need to remove environmental protection from the departmental core. The Balfour Report was published in 1984. I have no doubt that Mr Wells, with his great experience of the Prior Assembly and the one-man-band role that he played in it, will be able to tell us more about the Balfour Report, but it is clear that we are still playing catch-up 20-odd years later with what was an essential recommendation then. An independent environmental protection agency would have the duties and the powers to tackle environmental problems that are causing difficulties for us, both here in the Assembly and in Northern Ireland generally. Those problems are making it less attractive for those of us who live and work here and lead to our taxpayers being threatened with fines for failure to comply with directives. We absolutely must have an environmental protection agency, and the case for so doing is quite clear. I shall mention briefly the two proposed amendments to the motion. When we tabled the motion, our intention was to make a simple, clear statement, and nothing could be simpler or clearer than a call for the establishment of an independent environmental protection agency, with no ifs, buts or qualifications — Mr Poots: Simplistic? Mr Ford: I said “simple”, not “simplistic”, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sure that the Member, in his capacity as Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, will manage to work out the distinction when it comes to his Department. Our intention was to set out that simple, clear call. I understand why Tommy Gallagher has tabled amendment No 2, which may be viewed in certain circles as beefing up our original proposal. His amendment causes me no great difficulty one way or the other, although I do believe that a simple, clear call for the establishment of an agency was beneficial. Amendment No 1, however, which stands in the name of Peter Weir, appears to be a classic example of the obfuscation that we expect in this place. The case for an independent agency is clear, and the benefits are clear. If it was not clear enough from the REGNI report itself, Mr Justice Weatherup further highlighted the fact, yet amendment No 1 calls for further consideration and further delay. There is no choice — we know that we must do something. Instead of pretending that we can debate the issue a little bit more, we should be getting on with the establishment of an environmental protection agency. I am not a lawyer, but I understand that Mr Weir is, and I have no doubt that he is as capable of understanding Mr Justice Weatherup’s judgement as anybody in this place. I hope that the House will be of the clear opinion today that best practice elsewhere be followed. Moreover, I trust that those Members on the Unionist Benches who understand the issues under discussion will add their votes and not just their voices to this call for action. Mr Weir: I beg to move amendment No 1: Leave out all after “Assembly” and insert “notes the recent report ‘Fou |