Session 2007/2008

First Report

COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

Report on
The Libraries Bill
(NIA 5/07)

TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND
WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS RELATING TO THE REPORT

Ordered by the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure to be printed 7 February 2008
Report: 19/07/08R (Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Membership and Powers

Powers

The Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure is a Statutory Departmental Committee established in accordance with paragraphs 8 and 9 of the Belfast Agreement, Section 29 of the NI Act 1998 and under Assembly Standing Order 46. The Committee has a scrutiny, policy development and consultation role with respect to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure and has a role in the initiation of legislation.

The Committee has the power to:

consider and advise on Departmental budgets and annual plans in the context of the overall budget allocation;
approve relevant secondary legislation and take the Committee Stage of primary legislation;
call for persons and papers;
initiate inquiries and make reports; and
consider and advise on matters brought to the Committee by the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

Membership

The Committee has 11 members, including a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson, with a quorum of five members.

The membership of the Committee since 9 May 2007 has been as follows;

Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Paul Maskey
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson*
Mr Jim Shannon

* Mr Ken Robinson replaced Mr David Burnside with effect from 18 June 2007.

Executive Summary

Introduction

Consideration of the Bill

Clause by Clause consideration of the Bill

Appendix 1

Minutes of Proceedings relating to the Report

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

Appendix 3

Written Submissions

Appendix 4

Written Evidence and other Correspondence considered by the Committee

Appendix 5

List of witnesses

List of Abbreviations
Used in the Report

ACL	Association of Chief Librarians
BELB	Belfast Education and Library Board
CILIP	Chartered Institute of Library Professionals
CIFPA	Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy
DE	Department of Education
DSO	Departmental Solicitors Office
ESA	Education and Skills Authority
DCAL	Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
DFP	Department of Finance and Personnel
LISC (NI)	Library and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)
NAC	National Association of Councillors
NDPB	Non-Departmental Public Bodies
NILA	Northern Ireland Library Authority
NILGA	Northern Ireland Local Government Association
NIPR	Northern Ireland Publications Resource
NIPSA	Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance
OCPA	Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments
RPA	Review of Public Administration
SEELB	South Eastern Education and Library Board
SELB	Southern Education and Library Board
WELB	Western Education and Library Board

Executive Summary

1. The Bill has two main purposes. These are:

To provide for the establishment and functions of the Northern Ireland Library Authority;
To enable the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to make grants in connection with the provision of library services; and
For connected purposes.

2. The Committee agreed that it was content with clause 1, and clauses 3 to 13. Members voiced concerns regarding the omission of the words “comprehensive and efficient” from Clause 2 sub-section (1) (Duty of Authority to provide library service), given that these words are used in the Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 to describe this duty. The Committee was also concerned that there was no duty on the Authority to create a collection of material relevant to the cultural heritage of Northern Ireland. During the Committee Stage of the Bill the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure proposed two amendments to this Clause and the wording of these was agreed by the Committee. The Committee agreed clause 2 as amended.

3. The Committee was opposed to the provisions of Schedule 1 paragraph 2 which prescribed the membership of the Authority with regard to the numbers and makeup. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure proposed three amendments to this paragraph which were approved by the Committee. The Committee was also opposed to Schedule 1 paragraph 6 in relation to arrangements for secondments with the Northern Ireland Civil Service. Members suggested that Schedule 1 paragraph 6 was unnecessary, given the provisions of Schedule 1, sub-paragraph 5(b). The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure proposed an amendment to leave out paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 to the satisfaction of the Committee.

4. A further three technical amendments were proposed by the Department in relation to Schedule 3 which makes consequential changes to other related statutes.

5. The Committee agreed the provisions of Schedule 4 as drafted.

Introduction

1. The Libraries Bill was referred to the Committee for consideration in accordance with Standing Order 31(1) of the Northern Ireland Assembly after completing its Second Stage on 19 June 2007.

2. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure made the following statement under section 9 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998:

“In my view the Libraries Bill would be within the legislative competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly”.

3. The Secretary of State has consented under section 10(3) (b) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to the Assembly considering the Bill.

4. The stated purpose of the Bill is as follows:

To provide for the establishment and functions of the Northern Ireland Library Authority;
To enable the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to make grants in connection with the provision of library services; and
For connected purposes.

Consideration of the Bill

5. During the period covered by this Report, the Committee considered the Bill and related issues at 16 meetings - on 4 September, 13 September, 20 September, 27 September, 4 October, 11 October, 18 October, 25 October, 8 November, 22 November, 29 November, 6 December, 13 December 2007, 10 January, 17 January and 24 January 2008 to consider the Bill. The relevant extracts from the Minutes of Proceedings for these meetings are included at Appendix 1.

6. The Committee had before it the Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07) and the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum that accompanied the Bill.

7. On referral of the Bill to the Committee after Second Stage, the Committee wrote directly to 57 organisations and individuals, 28 of which had previously responded to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s public consultation exercise on The Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 2007, and might therefore have an interest in the Bill. This consultation ran between January and April 2007 prior to the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

8. The Committee also placed a public notice in the Belfast Telegraph, Belfast Telegraph Northwest edition, the Irish News and the Newsletter seeking written submissions on the Bill.

9. A total of 18 organisations and individuals responded to the request for written evidence and a copy of the submissions received by the Committee is included at Appendix 3.

10. On 24 May 2007 prior to the introduction of the Bill, the Committee was briefed by Departmental officials about the policy behind the Bill and its general provisions. Following referral of the Bill for Committee Stage, the Committee took evidence from the Association of Chief Librarians, the Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals Ireland, and the Libraries and Information Services Council Northern Ireland on 13 September; the Belfast Education and Library Board, the Western Education and Library Board, the Southern Education and Library Board and the South Eastern Education and Library Board on 20 September; the North Eastern Education and Library Board, NIPSA and UNISON on 27 September; officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Departmental Solicitors Office on 4 October, 6 December, 10 December 2007 and 17 January 2008 and the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure on 18 October 2007. The Minutes of Evidence are included at Appendix 2.

11. On 24 September 2007, the Assembly agreed to extend the Committee Stage of the Bill to 25 February 2008.

12. The Committee further considered the Libraries Bill at its meetings of 25 October, 8 November, 22 November, 29 November, 6 December, 13 December 2007 and, 10 January, 17 January and 24 January 2008. During this period the Committee requested clarification and information from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure on a range of issues. The Committee’s letters and the responses received are included at Appendix 4.

Clause by Clause Consideration of the Bill

13. The Committee undertook its clause by clause scrutiny of the Bill on 29 November, 6 December 2007, 10 January and 17 January 2008. The Minutes of Evidence are included at Appendix 2.

14. The Committee gave detailed consideration to the Clauses of the Bill and was satisfied that they would provide for the establishment of the Northern Ireland Library Service.

15. However, the Committee was concerned that the term ‘comprehensive and efficient’ was not contained in Clause 2. The Committee wrote to the Minister proposing that he include that term in the clause. The Minister agreed in a letter dated 27 November 2007 to include a reference to ‘comprehensive and efficient’ in the legislation – see Appendix 4.

16. The Committee agreed a further amendment to Clause 2 related to availability of material on Northern Ireland’s cultural heritage. The Minister agreed in his letter of 23 January 2008 to include an additional Clause to add to the list of desirable functions.

17. The Committee was concerned with the arrangements for membership of the Authority as set out in Schedule 1, paragraph 2. The Committee wrote to the Minister setting out its proposals for Schedule 1 (2). In his response dated 20 December 2007, the Minister agreed to the Committee’s suggestion that the majority of members of the Board should be elected representative of District Councils. The Minister also agreed to a Board of up to 19 members and for the majority of places for elected representatives to be stated in the legislation.

18. The Committee was of the view that Schedule 1, paragraph 6 in relation to arrangements for secondments with the Northern Ireland Civil Service was unnecessary, given the provisions of Schedule 1, sub-paragraph 5(b). The Department agreed with the Committee’s view that Schedule 1, paragraph 6 should be omitted from the Bill – see minutes of 29 November 2007 Appendix 1.

19. In relation to Schedule 2 of the Bill, NIPSA had proposed a number of amendments to the Committee in both its written and oral evidence. The Committee discussed the issues involved with a representative from the Departmental Solicitors Office at its meetings of 4 October and 6 December 2007. The Committee then wrote to the Minister seeking confirmation that he was content with the legal advice he had received regarding Schedule 2 and that the drafting of Schedule 2 reflected the advice he had received. The Minister gave that assurance in a letter dated 20 December 2007 – see Appendix 4. The Committee therefore concluded that it was content with Schedule 2 as drafted.

20. The Department proposed a number of technical amendments to Schedule 3 (consequential changes to other statutes).The Committee agreed Schedule 3 as amended and Schedule 4 as drafted.

21. At its meeting of 7 February 2008, the Committee agreed its report on the Bill and agreed that it should be printed.

Minutes of Proceedings relating to the Report

Thursday, 24 May 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mr Alan Patterson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Denis Arnold (Bill Office – Item 4 only)

Apologies: Mr David Burnside MLA

The meeting opened at 10.40am in public session.

1. Departmental presentation on draft Libraries Bill

The following officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure joined the meeting at 11.10am:

Mr Paul Sweeney (Permanent Secretary)
Mr Colin Jack (Head of Culture Division)

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.12am

Mr Jack gave an overview of the draft Libraries Bill. This was followed by a question and answer session.

[EXTRACT]

Tuesday, 4 September 2007
Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Witnesses: Mr Edwin Poots – Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Colin Jack – Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Irene Knox – Northern Ireland Library Authority

The meeting opened at 10.35am in public session.

1 Libraries Bill

The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Mr Edwin Poots MLA, and the following officials joined the meeting 10.45am:

Colin Jack (Head of Culture, Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Irene Knox (Chief Executive Designate, Northern Ireland Library Authority)

The Minister and Ms Knox briefed the Committee on the Department’s proposed timetable for the Libraries Bill and for the setting up of the new Library Authority. This was followed by a question and answer session.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.25am.
Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.30am.
Mr Robinson left the meeting at 11.45am.
Mr Robinson rejoined the meeting at 11.50am.
Mr Bradley left the meeting at 11.50am.
Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 11.52am.
The Minister and his officials left the meeting at 12.03pm.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.05pm.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to provide the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure with copies of the written submissions received on the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to consider at next week’s meeting a suitable extension date for the Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to ask Assembly Research Services for information on the process by which the Department selected the single library authority model.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure for further information on its proposal that the Library Authority will have a sub-regional structure.

The Chair referred members to the paper on the Libraries Bill prepared by Assembly Research Services.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 13 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Martin Wilson (Bill Office)
Mrs Jane Campbell (Assembly Research Services)

Apologies: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Paul Maskey MLA

Witnesses: Ms Katherine McCloskey – Association of Chief Librarians
Ms Helen Osborne – Association of Chief Librarians
Ms Anne Connolly – Association of Chief Librarians
Mr Bob McKee – Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland
Mr John McCormick - Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland
Ms Elga Logue - Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland
Mr Kirby Porter - Libraries and Information Services Council Northern Ireland
Mr John Gray – Libraries and Information Services Council Northern Ireland

The meeting opened at 10.20am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Members declared the following interests:

Mr Barry McElduff (Chair) - Member of Western Education & Library Board

Mr Nelson McCausland – Chair of the Library Committee of the Belfast Education & Library Board

Mrs Jane Campbell from Assembly Research Service briefed the Committee on the background to the creation of the Libraries Bill.

The Association of Chief Librarians gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

The Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Bill.

The Libraries and Information Services Council Northern Ireland gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Board.

Mr Martin Wilson from the Assembly Bill Office briefed the Committee on issues involved in Committee Stage of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure seeking a breakdown of the predicted savings for the new Library Authority as set out in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to take evidence from officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure on 4 October 2007 and to take evidence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on 11 October 2007.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to seek an extension to Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill to 25 February 2008.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 20 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson) MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA

Witnesses: Ms Joan Christie – South Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Adrienne Adair – South Eastern Education and Library Board
Mr Stanton Sloan – South Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Helen Osborne – Western Education and Library Board
Mr Barry Mulholland - Western Education and Library Board
Mr Bill Reilly - Western Education and Library Board
Mr David Cargo – Belfast Education and Library Board
Mr David Jess – Belfast Education and Library Board
Ms Rosemary Frawley – Belfast Education and Library Board
Ms Marie Donnell - Southern Education and Library Board
Mr Wilbert Mayne - Southern Education and Library Board
Ms Kathleen Ryan - Southern Education and Library Board

The meeting opened at 10.38am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

The Deputy Chair referred members to the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ policy document and to The Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986.

The South Eastern Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Bradley joined the meeting at 10.55am.
Mr Shannon left the meeting at 11.26am.
Mr McCausland left the meeting at 11.27am.
Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 11.31am.
Mr McCarthy left the meeting at 11.34am.

The Belfast Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Bill.

The Belfast Education and Library Board extended an invitation to the Committee to visit the Central Library in Belfast.

The Western Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Bradley left the meeting at 12.00pm.
Mr McCarthy rejoined the meeting at 12.05pm.
Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 12.07pm.

The Southern Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Shannon rejoined the meeting at 12.38pm.

The Deputy Chair advised members that he had been notified by the Business Office that it had received a query as to whether it would be admissible for the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to table an amendment to the motion to extend the Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed that the Chair and Deputy Chair meet with Departmental officials to discuss any possible amendments to the motion, and to report back on these discussions to the Committee.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 27 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Ken Robinson

Witnesses: Mr Billy McCartney – North Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Anne Connolly – North Eastern Education and Library Board
Mr Gordon Topping – North Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Patricia McKeown - UNISON
Mr Jonathon Swallow - UNISON
Mr John Corey - NIPSA
Ms Alison Millar - NIPSA
Ms Mary McVeigh - NIPSA

The meeting opened at 10.36am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Members declared the following interests:

Mr Barry McElduff (Chair) - Member of Western Education & Library Board

The North Eastern Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Maskey left the meeting at 11.02am.
Mr Maskey rejoined the meeting at 11.06am.
Mr Maskey left the meeting at 11.13am.

UNISON gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Board.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.25am.
Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.35am.
Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 11.40am.

NIPSA gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Bill.

Mr McCausland joined the meeting at 12.16pm.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the five Education and Library Boards, UNISON and NIPSA to ask them for their estimates of start-up costs for the Library Authority.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to seek the assistance of Assembly Legal Services in relation to Schedule 2 of the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask for a breakdown of the estimated savings for the Library Authority and whether he was intending to review them. The Committee also agreed to query with the Minister as to why a Business Plan had not already been produced for the Library Authority.

The Chair advised members that Research Service will present a paper on the Libraries Bill on 18 October 2007.

The Chair advised members that the motion to extend Committee Stage of the Bill was agreed by the Assembly on 24 September 2007.

Agreed: the Committee agreed a list of issues to be forwarded to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, in preparation for their officials giving evidence to the Committee at next week’s meeting.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority seeking an update on recruitment of staff and progress on developing the sub-regional structure of the Library Authority.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 4 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)

Apologies: Mr Pat Ramsey MLA

Witnesses: Mr Paul Sweeney – Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Julie Mapstone – Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Noel Kelly – Departmental Solicitors Office

The meeting opened at 10.37am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Members declared the following interests:

Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson) – Member of the Western Education and Library Board.

Mr Dominic Bradley MLA – Member of Newry Library.

Mr Nelson McCausland – Chairperson of the Library Committee, Belfast Education and Library Board.

Officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr McNarry joined the meeting at 10.55am.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.32am.
Mr Brolly left the meeting at 11.55am.
Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 11.56am.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to seek further information on the start-up costs and estimated savings associated with the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to NIPSA requesting a copy of the legal advice it received on Schedule 2 of the Libraries Bill.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 11 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Pat Ramsey MLA

In Attendance: Mr John Torney (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Tim Moore (Research Service)

The meeting opened at 10.35am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Agreed: the Committee agreed to forward the legal opinion on Schedule 2 received from NIPSA to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure for onward transmission to the Departmental Solicitor’s Office. Mr McNarry asked that his dissatisfaction with this arrangement be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings.

The Chair referred members to the article sent by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to the Committee regarding book spend in libraries in Northern Ireland.

The Chair referred members to the response from the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority to the Committee’s request for an update on progress with the recruitment of staff and the development of a sub-regional structure.

Agreed: the Committee agreed that the Bill paper from Research Service be rescheduled from 18 October 2007 to a later date.

The Committee discussed issues on the Libraries Bill in preparation for the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure giving oral evidence at the next meeting of the Committee.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to hold its next meeting at 10.00am in order to discuss Schedule 2 and issues around the costs of the Library Authority, before taking evidence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 11.08am.
Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 11.10am.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.15am.
Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.23am.
Mr Shannon left the meeting at 11.45am.
Mr Shannon rejoined the meeting at 11.48am.
Mr Bradley left the meeting at 11.58am.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.00pm.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 18 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)

Witnesses: Mr Edwin Poots – Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Irene Knox – Northern Ireland Library Authority
Mr Colin Jack – Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure

The meeting opened at 10.08am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

The Committee discussed issues on the Libraries Bill in preparation for the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure giving oral evidence to the Committee.

Mr Bradley joined the meeting at 10.16am.
Mr McCausland left the meeting at 10.23am.
Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 10.24am.

Members declared the following interests:

Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson) – Member of the Western Education and Library Board.

Mr Dominic Bradley MLA – Board of Governors, primary school.

Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA – Board of Governors, two schools.

Mr Nelson McCausland MLA – Chairperson of the Library Committee, Belfast Education and Library Board. Board of Governors, three schools.

Mr Ken Robinson MLA – Board of Governors, two schools.

Mr Jim Shannon MLA – Board of Governors, two schools.

The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Maskey left the meeting at 11.20am.
Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 12.05pm.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.15pm.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister for further clarification on the discussions which his Department has had with the Department of Education in relation to synchronising the establishment of the Library Authority and the Education and Skills Authority. The Committee also agreed to request information from the Minister on how the links between the Public Library Service and the Schools Library Service would be maintained and developed, and on the issues which would be covered by service level agreements.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 25 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA

The meeting opened at 10.37am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Mrs Jane Campbell from Research Service presented the Bill paper to the Committee.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask for the Department’s plans concerning the carrying out of an Equality Impact Assessment on the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to request the outcome of his deliberations on the inclusion of the terms ‘comprehensive’ and ‘efficient’ in Clause 2 of the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure requesting that he consider amending Schedule 1 (2) of the Bill to specify that the Library Authority should have 20 members.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure requesting that he consider amending Schedule 1 (2) of the Bill to specify that members of the Library Authority are representative of the community in Northern Ireland.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask who will be responsible for making the rules for the operation of the Library Authority.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure asking that he respond to the issues raised by Mr Ramsey at the evidence session of 18 October 2007.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask that he respond to the Committee’s requests regarding the Libraries Bill by 14 November 2007.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 8 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Denis Arnold (Bill Office)

The meeting opened at 10.05am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Deputy Chairperson referred members to the correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on start-up costs for the Library Authority.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure asking to be kept informed of any planned redundancies or changes to the estimated start-up costs. The Committee also agreed to ask whether human resources and financial systems are currently shared between the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s Non Departmental Public Bodies (NDPBs), and whether it is envisaged that all NDPBs would share such services in the future. The Committee agreed to further ask the Minister for clarification on the conclusion of the summary of the Deloitte report.

Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 10.10am.

The Deputy Chairperson referred members to the correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on Clause 6 of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to ask the Bill Office to provide further guidance on the possible re-wording of Clause 6 of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure regarding the retention and protection of experience of longer serving staff currently employed in the Education and Library Boards.

Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 10.20am.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to ask the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for a timeline of the process for the appointment of the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 22 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.36am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Chair referred members to correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure in response to the concerns raised by the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

The Committee discussed a range of issues on the Libraries Bill in preparation for the clause by clause reading of the Bill at the next meeting of the Committee.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask why no money has been set aside for redundancies, and whether the Library Authority intends to seek external sources of funding.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to seek his assurance that the Department will consult with the Committee should it may any decision in the future to change its library charging policy.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask what date has been arranged for the meeting between NIPSA’s legal advisor and the Departmental Solicitors Office, and to request that the Committee is informed of the outcome of the meeting as soon as possible thereafter.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 29 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Francie Brolly MLA
In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Denis Arnold (Bill Office)

The meeting opened at 10.05am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Chair referred members to correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on the appointment of the Chief Executive Designate, the position of library staff, and options for corporate services.

The following officials joined the meeting at 11.18am:

Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Irene Armstrong (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

The Committee carried out a detailed clause by clause scrutiny of main body of the Bill, along with Schedules 1. The clauses were read along with the related commentary in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum.

Clause 1 (The Northern Ireland Library Authority)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Mr Shannon rejoined the meeting at 11.19am.

Clause 2 (Duty of Authority to provide library services)

Agreed: the Committee agreed to defer consideration of Clause 2 until its next meeting.

Clause 3 (Ancillary Powers of Authority)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 4 (Power of Authority to undertake commercial activities)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 5 (Powers of Authority in relation to land)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 6 (Charges for certain library services)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 7 (Byelaws in respect of use of library services)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 8 (Grants for or in connection with library services)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 9 (Directions)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 10 (Amendments and repeals)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 11 (Interpretation)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 12 (Commencement)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 13 (Short title)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.45am.

Schedule 1 – The Northern Ireland Library Authority

Paragraph 1 (Status)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 2 (Membership)

Agreed: the Committee agreed to defer consideration of paragraph 2 to its next meeting.

Mr Bradley left the meeting at 11.50am.

Paragraph 3 (Tenure of office)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 4 (Remuneration, etc., of members)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 5 (Employees)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Mr Robinson left the meeting at 12.00pm.

Paragraph 6 (Employees)

Agreed: that the Committee is opposed to the paragraph as drafted.

Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 12.02pm.

Paragraph 7 (Remuneration, allowance and pensions of employees)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Mr Robinson rejoined the meeting at 12.05pm.

Paragraph 8 (Arrangements for assistance)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 9 (Committees)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 10 (Delegation to committees and staff)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 11 (Proceedings)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 12 (Proceedings)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 13 (Application of seal and documents)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 14 (Application of seal and documents)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 15 (Premises)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 16 (Finance)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 17 (Accounts)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 18 (Annual report)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 19 (Interpretation)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Schedule 3 – Amendments

Agreed: the Committee agreed to defer consideration of Schedule 3 until its next meeting.

Schedule 4 – Repeals

Agreed: the Committee agreed to defer consideration of Schedule 4 until its next meeting.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to continue its consideration of the Bill at its next meeting.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 6 December 2007
Central Library, Belfast

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

In Attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Dara McGaughey (Research Service)

The meeting opened at 10.47am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The following witnesses attended:

Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitors Office)

The Committee continued its clause by clause scrutiny of the Bill.

Clause 2 – Duty of Authority to provide library service

‘Question put and agreed:

‘That the Committee agrees with the Minister’s proposal as described in his letter of 27 November 2007 which is before the Committee’.

Schedule 1 – The Northern Ireland Library Authority

Paragraph 2 (Membership)

Agreed : the Committee agreed to write to the Minister with its proposal outlining the Committee’s views regarding the membership of the Library Authority.

Schedule 2 – Staff transfers

Paragraph 2 (Creation and apportionment of property, rights and liabilities etc.)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 3 (Creation and apportionment of property, rights and liabilities etc.)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 5 (Continuity)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 6 (Continuity)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 7 (Continuity)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 8 (Continuity)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 9 (Incidental provision)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 10 (Interpretation)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Agreed : the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure seeking his assurance that he is satisfied with the legal advice provided by Departmental Solicitors Office in relation to Schedule 2 (1) and Schedule 2 (4).

Schedule 3 – Amendments

‘Question put and agreed:

‘That the Committee accepts that this is a technical matter and that these amendments are necessary and consequent upon this legislation, and that the Committee is content to leave this with the Department and the draughtsman’.

Schedule 4 – Repeals

‘Question put and agreed:

‘That the Committee accepts that this is a technical matter and that these repeals are necessary and consequent upon this legislation, and that the Committee is content to leave this with the Department and the draughtsman’.

Agreed : the Committee agreed to invite the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority to brief the Committee on the proposed operational structure of the Library Authority on 17 January 2008.

Agreed : the Committee agreed to continue consideration of the Bill at its next meeting.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 13 December 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA

In Attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Florence Stocker (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.15am in public session.

Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 10.26am.

Mr Bradley joined the meeting at 10.34am.

The meeting moved into closed session at 11.40am.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.55am.

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting 12.18pm

The Committee moved into open session at 12.21pm.

Mr McCarthy left the meeting at 12.37pm.

Mr McCarthy re-joined the meeting at 12.40pm.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Chair referred members to the letter which has been sent from the Committee to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, setting out the Committee’s views on Schedule 1 (2) and Schedule 2 of the Bill.

The Chair advised members that the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority would brief the Committee on the proposed operational structure of the Library Authority on 17 January 2008.

The Chair referred members to correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on the budget for redundancies for the Northern Ireland Library Service.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 10 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Brown MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Mrs Florence Stocker (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.33am in public session.

Mr McNarry joined the meeting at 10.37am

Mr Brolly joined the meeting at 10.38am

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Chair referred members to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s response to the Committee’s proposals relating to membership of the Board (Schedule 1(2)). The Minister has also confirmed that he is satisfied with the legal advice he received on Schedule 2 (Transfer Schemes).

The following witnesses attended:

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Irene Armstrong (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitor’s Office)

Agreed: the Committee agreed that it would not continue the clause by clause reading of Schedule 1, paragraph 2 until such time as the amendments were forwarded by the Department.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to the format of a letter to NIPSA asking if the Union wish to make any further comments on Paragraph 4 of Schedule 2.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.17am.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to postpone further clause by clause reading of Paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 until 17 January 2008.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to continue with the clause by clause reading of Schedule 2 paragraph 1.

Schedule 2 – Transfer Schemes
Paragraph 1 (Creation and apportionment of property, rights and liabilities etc.)

Agreed: that paragraph 1 should stand part of the Bill.

The Chair referred members to the outline plan prepared by the Committee Office.

The Chair referred members to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s response in relation to the December monitoring and details of potential redundancies and related costs.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Education and Library Boards asking for assurance that they will be able to continue to deliver efficient services given budget restraints.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure requesting details of proposed redundancies in each Education and Library Board and the cost in percentage terms of each Board’s budget.

Agreed: the Committee agreed that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure would provide details of the formula that the libraries use to calculate their funding -Assessment of Relevant Needs Exercise.

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.40am.

Mr Bradley left the meeting at 12.23pm

Mr Robinson left the meeting at 12.26pm

Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 12.34pm

Mr Robinson rejoined the meeting at 12.36pm

Mr Shannon left the meeting at 12.44pm

Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 12.56pm.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 17 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Apologies: Mr Paul Maskey MLA
In Attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Mrs Florence Stocker (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.34am in public session.

Mr McCausland joined the meeting at 10.36am

Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 10.43am.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The following witnesses attended:

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Irene Armstrong (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitors Office)

Mr Martin Wilson, Principle Clerk, briefed members on the work completed to date on the Libraries Bill. He indicated that all clauses with the exception of clause 2 had been agreed by the Committee but that the four schedules had yet to be agreed.

The Committee noted that the NIPSA reply to its letter dated 10 January 2008 had been received after the deadline set by the Committee.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to continue with the clause by clause reading of the Bill.

The Chair referred members to correspondence of 14 January 2008 from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure setting out proposed amendments to the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed that the words “comprehensive and efficient” should be reinstated into Clause 2 (1) by an amendment as proposed by the Department in its letter of 14 January 2008.

Agreed: that Clause 2, paragraph 2 (2) (b) should include a new sub-paragraph (vi) requiring the Authority to create a collection of material culturally specific to Northern Ireland by an amendment as proposed by Departmental officials during the meeting.

Agreed: that Clause 2 as amended should stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 1: the Northern Ireland Library Authority

Agreed: that paragraph 2(1) should be amended as proposed by the Department in its letter of 14 January 2008.

Agreed: that paragraph 2(2) should be amended as proposed by the Department in its letter of 14 January 2008.

Agreed: that paragraph 6 should be omitted as agreed by the Department in its letter of 14 January 2008.

Agreed: that Schedule 1 as amended should stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 2: Transfer Schemes

Agreed: that Schedule 2 as drafted should stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 3: Amendments

Agreed: that Schedule 3 as amended should stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 4: Repeals

Agreed: that Schedule 4 as drafted should stand part of the Bill.

Mr McNarry joined the meeting at 11.20am

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 11.21am

Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 11.23am

2. Presentation on the Organisational Structures of the Northern Ireland Library Authority

The following officials were in attendance.

Ms Irene Knox (Chief Executive designate of the Northern Ireland Library Authority)

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

The Chair referred members to a copy of the presentation paper on the proposed organisational structures of the Northern Ireland Authority.

Ms Knox briefed the Committee on the proposed organisational structures of the Northern Ireland Authority.

This was followed by a question and answer session.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.40am

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.44am

Mr Bradley left the meeting at 12.01pm

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 12.20pm

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.31pm

Mr Robinson left the meeting at 12.31pm

Mr Robinson rejoined the meeting at 12.32pm

Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 12.36pm

Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 12.36pm

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 12.55pm

Mr Shannon left the meeting at 1.15pm

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 24 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
In attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.31 a.m. in public session

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 11.45am

Mr Brolly left the meeting at 11.45am

Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 11.47am

Mr Brolley rejoined the meeting at 11.48am

Mr Bradley assumed the Chair at 12.01pm

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.01pm

Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 12.01

1. Libraries Bill

The Principal Clerk of Bills, briefed the Committee on the 4 groups of amendments relating to Libraries Bill, which will be moved at the Consideration Stage of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to the amendments as set out in the Department’s letter of 23 January 2008 and to the four groups of amendments proposed by the Principal Clerk.

[EXTRACT]

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

4 September 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr Edwin Poots		The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Colin Jack		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Irene Knox		proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority

1. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Mr Edwin Poots, to the meeting. He is accompanied by senior officials.

2. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure (Mr Poots): They are Mr Colin Jack and Ms Irene Knox, who is the new chief executive designate of the proposed Northern Ireland library authority.

3. The Chairperson: Thank you, Minister. I shall hand over to you straight away so that you can make your presentation on the Libraries Bill. Afterwards, the Committee will ask questions.

4. Mr Poots: I was enjoying the Committee’s scones, when I was rudely interrupted.

5. The Chairperson: I hope that you have not carried any of them into the room in your pocket because eating during the Committee meeting is not permitted.

6. Mr Poots: We had only half a scone each. However, half a scone is better than none.

7. It is good to be here. I trust that Committee members had a good break during the summer and that everyone is ready for hard work. There is plenty of work to be done, both by the Department and the Committee. I thank the Committee for my invitation to discuss the timing of the introduction of the library authority.

8. At the outset, I want to introduce Irene Knox officially. Most members will already know Ms Knox from her previous role as chief executive of the South Eastern Education and Library Board. She has now taken up her post as chief executive designate of the library authority. The circumstances of that appointment have been explained to the Assembly. She took up her post in August 2007 and is on secondment from the South Eastern Education and Library Board, pending the final decision on the legislation. Her task is to lead and take forward the setting-up of the new body. She is happy to talk to the Committee about her key priorities for the next few months. With the Committee’s agreement, I will invite her to do so later in the meeting.

9. At their meeting on 7 June, the Executive agreed that the Libraries Bill should be brought before the Assembly. The Libraries Bill sets out the argument for a single library service for the whole of Northern Ireland that will be managed and delivered by a regional body — the library authority. The matter is now for the Assembly to consider, and I am looking forward to working with the Committee to ensure that the issues are considered fully and that appropriate legislation is produced to establish a library service of which we can be proud.

10. The creation of a single library authority reflects the review of public administration’s (RPA) objective of streamlining the management and delivery of public services. It also reflects the desire to build on the developments that have been made towards joint working at regional level by the five existing library services during the past few years. That work has proved valuable, and I appreciate the way in which the library services of the education and library boards have worked together.

11. The Library Service’s provisions are universal and open to all. They are free at the point of use, and have no entry or eligibility requirements to deter users. They are, therefore, valuable in combating social exclusion and promoting equality of opportunity through meeting a range of needs among individuals and communities.

12. Even though the Library Service’s core services of book lending and reference have not substantially changed, a new core service has been added in recent years — internet access. Furthermore, the way in which libraries operate has changed. There is an additional emphasis on proactive engagement with, and on behalf of, specific social groups, often in partnership with others. It is important to have a structure for the delivery of libraries that will reflect their range of roles and broad customer base and which exploits their potential to contribute to equality of opportunity.

13. A single library service for Northern Ireland — delivered by one body, linked to other relevant providers and properly positioned to reflect local needs — offers an exciting way forward. Libraries have, inevitably, been the minor partners in education and library boards and the proposed change offers the opportunity to bring a new strategic focus to the delivery of library services that will benefit the public.

14. Chairperson, I know that you have asked me to talk chiefly about the Committee’s concerns on the timing of the introduction of the Libraries Bill, and I am happy to listen to your views and answer questions. However, before we do that, the chief executive designate will say a few words — with the Committee’s permission.

15. Ms Irene Knox (Northern Ireland Library Authority): I thank the Chairperson, the Committee, and the Minister for giving me the opportunity to attend this morning’s meeting. I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the Committee about the work that I will be undertaking over the next few months, and I will be happy to return to the Committee at any stage. I am aware that the Committee will be involved in the consideration of the Bill over the next while, and I am content to talk to you at any time about the progress that I am making.

16. Subject to the Assembly’s agreement on the Libraries Bill, the aim is for the Northern Ireland library authority to function as a separate legal entity from 1 April 2008. To achieve that end, there is a significant amount of preparatory work to be done.

17. My first priority relates to the staff of the service. As Committee members will know, schedule 2 of the Libraries Bill makes provision for the transfer of staff from the existing education and library boards to the Northern Ireland library authority under the terms of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE) at the time of commencement of the new authority. At that stage it will be necessary to have a comprehensive framework in place to support the human resource needs of the new organisation and to manage issues such as human resource policies and procedures, payroll, staff recruitment, training, terms and conditions, etc, as well as to establish consultation and negotiating machinery with the trade unions.

18. The new authority will also require an effective organisational structure to facilitate the delivery of the key priorities for the Library Service as contained in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’. That structure must take account of the regional nature of the new organisation as well as the importance of local delivery and local engagement through, for example, the anticipated community planning process. I envisage the library authority having a strong subregional structure that will facilitate involvement and participation at local level.

19. While people have a right to expect a seamless and equitable service throughout Northern Ireland in relation to core provision, the Library Service must also be responsive to the needs of local communities and tailor its services to meet those needs. The organisational structures I propose to put in place must facilitate that process.

20. In developing the proposals for that organisational structure I should like to involve the existing chief librarians and their deputies so that the local needs that they are already aware of can be reflected adequately, and that they have ownership of the outcome. Once that structure has been agreed it will be necessary to recruit the senior team — again, I emphasise, on a secondment basis — to help to make that a reality. As I have said, I see that senior team as being few in number.

21. The quality of the Library Service, now and in the future, is heavily dependent on the professionalism of the staff who work in it. This is an unsettling time for them, and I am very conscious of the need to ensure that the change process is handled sensitively and that staff are consulted and have an opportunity to contribute to the way forward. I will be taking as many opportunities as possible to visit libraries to meet staff and, indeed, customers and to hear from them the vision that they have for the public library service in the future.

22. My second priority relates to the financial systems. As a separate legal entity, the Northern Ireland library authority will need to have effective and efficient systems and procedures that comply with accounting and governance obligations. I understand that the Committee has recently received a copy of a report prepared by Deloitte on options for the financial systems for the new authority. Over the next few months it will be necessary to procure, design, test and implement an appropriate financial system and to facilitate the migration of relevant data from the education and library boards.

23. Given the importance of the human resource, financial functions and the financial aspect of the work over the next few months, I am seeking to engage a human resources project manager and a finance project manager from the education and library boards, again on a secondment basis, to assist with that work.

24. There will, of course, be other work ongoing on, for example, other corporate services, business planning, administrative functions, and so on. As far as I am concerned, the critical issue is to ensure that the structures and systems are in place to build on the developments in joint working at education and library board level and thus improve the quality of provision for the future.

25. I should be pleased to come back to the Committee at any stage, Mr Chairman, to update you on progress, and also to hear the Committee’s views on the work that needs to be done.

26. Thank you.

27. The Chairperson: Thank you. Are there any additional comments?

28. Mr Poots: Not at this stage.

29. Mr McNarry: I welcome you, Minister, and your staff.

30. I can see that a helter-skelter approach to this Bill has been adopted by your officials — you and I have discussed this before, Minister. The project was well under way before you actually took office. I define the Libraries Bill as a rush job, and I think that sufficient evidence of that will be brought to you today. Certainly, I am glad to see that it is going to be up to the Assembly to divert you, because you gave no indication in your opening remarks that you are deviating from proceeding with the Bill and the dates.

31. There is no specific date in the Bill for the library authority to take over from the education and library boards, and the boards themselves have been given a stay of execution. However, not only are you rushing this Bill, you have already rushed into appointing a chief executive designate to a body that does not exist. Today, I hear from her that she is now recruiting staff. She has said that she is seeking to engage both a human resources project manager and a finance project manager on a secondment basis. Engage them for what purpose, and to what organisation? We do not have a library authority. Minister, how is it proposed that the chief executive designate will fulfil her job description while the education and library boards continue to function and there is no library authority?

32. Does the chief executive designate have an employment contract? Have other designated appointments been made? Has a recruitment process been activated beyond what the chief executive designate has told us? What costs are being borne by your Department in preparation for the establishment of the library authority?

33. There is no date for establishment of the authority; that will be for the Assembly to decide. Should the Assembly decide that the date will be late in 2008 or perhaps, as is more likely, that it will be in 2009, will all this not have been premature? What will happen to the appointment of the chief executive designate and to other prospective appointments if the Assembly decides that it will not accept your rush job? The Assembly may conclude that a date in 2009 is preferable, and other colleagues will argue for such a date in line with RPA. In an era when the Finance Minister seems to be lecturing everyone on prudence — to steal a term from Gordon Brown — here you are, Minister, setting up a post for an organisation that does not exist. Staff have been appointed, and someone has been assigned to the most senior position — I do not know at what salary — in an organisation that does not exist, and the chief executive designate is now recruiting people to join her.

34. I do not fault the fact that preparation is a good thing, but premature preparation seems to be rather silly in this instance, and I am anxious to know the costs. If the library authority is not going to be established until 2009, what will those people do? What work will they do, who will they report to, and who will carry them? I do not think that the Assembly will respond positively to those costs if the authority is not going to be in place until 2009. I am interested to hear the Minister’s comments.

35. Mr Poots: That is quite a range of questions, but I will try to cover them.

36. Mr McNarry: I have another question, but I do not want to mix different issues.

37. Mr Poots: The process started a long time ago. In fact, at that time, the Deputy Chairperson may have been involved in advising those who started the RPA process. Six years after the Assembly decided to have a review of public administration. When I was on the other side of the table, I thought it did not go far enough — it is now being implemented.

38. It is correct to say that I have been handed the issue of the single library authority and responsibility of delivering that part of RPA. I have no doubt that the single library authority will deliver greater efficiency savings than are currently being made. If the commitment were to efficiency savings alone, the library authority would have been kept with a single education authority, because that would have made for a more efficient body overall. However, it is much better to have a single library authority whose focus is exclusively on delivering quality library services to the public. Library services are not a small element in Northern Ireland; delivery costs are over £30 million. Those services should have their own silo, as opposed to being the poor relation in another Department. Therefore the basis for establishing a single library authority is good, and I encourage the Committee to hear the views of others on the issue.

39. I come before the Committee today, having obtained the Executive’s agreement to proceed with a single library authority. Although I am conscious that 10 or 11 Members of the Assembly are not represented in the Executive, I have the support of the four parties that are represented in the Executive to deliver a single library authority in Northern Ireland, and that is the basis on which the Department is proceeding. When the point of deciding on the intention to go down that route is reached, it is for the Department to work with, and consult with, the Assembly and the Committee to deliver the library authority. The Department can say that it will do something and set a date for doing it, but it cannot achieve it by magic. Preparation work must be done first.

40. Therefore, with the agreement of the Executive, the Department has begun the preparation work needed to create a single library authority, the focus of which will be on delivering quality library services across Northern Ireland. We want to do that in a managed way and in a way that ensures that there is a seamless separation. We want to ensure that staff interests are not jeopardised. For example, if we do not employ people with expertise in corporate services and human resources, staff might not be paid, and that would be a wholly unacceptable situation. I have no apology to make for the work that is ongoing to take forward a policy that was agreed by the Executive.

41. Mr McNarry: Thank you, Minister. Is it not correct that the appointment of the chief executive designate was made before the Bill was brought before the Executive?

42. Mr Poots: The appointment was not made, but the process was in place.

43. Mr McNarry: The process was under way?

44. Mr Poots: Yes.

45. Mr McNarry: I will not go into the details, but you were not fully aware of the circumstances at the time, Minister. The process was well under way, and I am not hanging that on you. However, I am asking you to consider that it was possibly foolish to continue with a process in which nothing has been put into place.

46. All you have is agreement from the Executive to take a particular route. However, that route ends at the Assembly and, given information that you will know as well as the Committee does, proceeding with the Bill with the intention of having arrangements in place in 2007-08 is unlikely to succeed.

47. Minister, I am challenging you to address the question of whether you are squandering public money on salaries that are not yet of use. I do not take issue with the need for a single library authority; I have supported that, despite having certain reservations. I am not taking issue with the outcome, but with the manner in which the process has been rushed and the squandering of public money on salaries. Where will that stop? I am glad to hear that two more people are being considered for posts and that other staff are being considered. However, to whom will they work? I ask you to consider that in the light of what you and I know, Minister. I do not want you or anybody else to look foolish if the Assembly decides on a much later date for the setting up of the authority.

48. Mr Poots: In the first instance, staff will work to the chief executive designate, who will be their line manager. The chief executive designate will report through the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to the permanent secretary and, ultimately, to me.

49. As for dates, the Department inherited the date of 1 April 2008. We had to work to that date, because it was the date that the education authority —

50. Mr McNarry: You did not have to work to that date. Other Ministers changed decisions in light of RPA; will you not do the same?

51. Mr Poots: Members may have noticed that I phrased my answer in the past tense — the Department was working to that date, and had to do so because if the setting up of the education authority had failed to happen there would be no service for delivering the library authorities. We no longer have to work to the date of 1 April 2008, nor do we have to work to the date of 1 April 2009.

52. If the Committee agrees — and no doubt it will have further hearings on the matter — that a single library authority is the way forward, the Department and the Committee will work through the Bill to get that right. Ultimately, we do not need to be time bound. Nonetheless, the aspirational date of 1 April 2008 should not necessarily be removed: it is an aspiration; it is not set in stone. However, setting a date helps to generate momentum and drive for the Department to see things through to their conclusion. Having said that, meeting the deadline of 1 April 2008 was always going to be very challenging, and I am glad that we are no longer in the situation where we have to meet that date.

53. Nevertheless, we should not necessarily tie ourselves to the date on which the education and skills authority comes into being. The Department of Education has set an end date of 1 April 2009. However, the education and skills authority could be established before that date, although that is unlikely.

54. Once we have brought our work to a satisfactory conclusion, we can set the single library authority up. However, we should do so when we are satisfied that the date is right rather than wait for the education and skills authority to be established.

55. Mr McCarthy: What are the benefits of creating the library authority by March 2008 rather than waiting another year? Would it not be more sensible to wait until a decision has been made about the future of the education and library boards before creating a single library authority?

56. Mr Poots: The decision to establish a single education and skills authority has not changed; the timing has changed. We are still engaged in the same process, even though the timeline has moved.

57. We have commenced work on the issue, and we are no longer under pressure to have it finished by a particular date. Once the problems and their solutions have been identified and addressed, there is no reason for waiting until 1 April 2009 to establish the education and skills authority. I am not insisting on 1 April 2008, which is an aspirational date; however, neither should we tie ourselves to the establishment of the library authority on 1 April 2009. The handover from the five education and library boards to the single library authority should be as seamless as possible, and I want to work with the Committee on how best to achieve that. Neither the Department nor the Committee should get hung up on dates; let us focus on delivering quality library services in the best way possible while looking at the best solutions.

58. Mr P Ramsey: You are very welcome, Minister. The single library authority was chosen as a good basis for creating professional partnership links with statutory, community, health, and education bodies. I agree that the single authority is the best way forward in library provision, but we must ensure that it brings benefits. You mentioned efficiency savings several times, Minister, but the change stems from a desire to improve rather than diminish services, and certainly not from a desire to make wide-ranging efficiency savings as part of the RPA.

59. To increase educational capacity in the community, lifelong learning and informal learning must be provided as part of the move. One in four adults in Northern Ireland has literacy and numeracy difficulties. What output will the new authority give to people and communities that face those difficulties?

60. Mr Poots: It would be appropriate to ask Irene to indicate how she wishes to see progress be made in that area, and how she intends to achieve that.

61. Ms Knox: I agree completely with Mr Ramsey that literacy levels, for example, are a major issue. People sometimes think of libraries as simply places from which to borrow a book. They play an important role in delivering a much wider agenda than that. I believe passionately that libraries have a critical role to play in the development of literacy levels among children and among adults. They have a huge role to play in community regeneration. There is a huge agenda for library services.

62. The benefit of the library authority will be that we can look regionally at how the library agenda is carried through. For example, partnerships can be developed at a strategic level, but services must be delivered locally. A strategic approach will be needed from the centre — the library authority — but local engagement with further education (FE) colleges, local councils and local community sectors will also be required in order to meet local needs. A single library authority will allow strategic partnerships to develop across Departments, the FE sector and the community sector. However, the single authority will also help to develop those policies at a local level.

63. Mr P Ramsey: I have a few other questions. The Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA) and other sources have raised their concerns with me. Library staff recognise the crucial role that libraries provide in delivering social learning and development. However, they fear that the drive to create a single authority will mean a rationalisation of services, a reduction in staff, and a reduction in the static and mobile provisions of the current library service. Can we have a commitment and a guarantee that those services will continue?

64. Another concern is whether there will be rural proofing. We all know the damage that Planning Policy Statement 14 (PPS 14) caused. Its introduction brought about the closure of rural post offices and small rural schools. I hope that people in rural areas are treated equally by being given the same access to libraries as those in urban settings.

65. Equality legislation is also needed to guarantee services for the visually impaired and people with other disabilities. Those are the big concerns outside this Committee room. People want to see a single library authority, as long as it provides a better service, with more social inclusion and high levels of adult participation, which will give them greater confidence and prepare them for work. We want to have libraries across Northern Ireland that are centres of excellence and second to none. However, the proposed legislation does not provide that at present.

66. Mr Poots: I had the opportunity to visit the library in Mr Ramsey’s city, and I was impressed by the numbers of young people who were using it. I was in the library in Coleraine, which offers computer and IT training services to the public. I have been to a range of libraries, and although I have been impressed by the services that are provided, those services are not consistent throughout. I think that the library authority will offer a more consistent service.

67. Inevitably, there will be a reduction in staff numbers at administration level. The purpose of the RPA was to reduce administration and introduce cost savings that could then be used for front-line services. I will not back off from reducing administration costs. My Department will fight its case with the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) to retain those savings, which can then be used to deliver better front-line services.

68. All staff transfers are protected by the provisions of The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE). I do not like the term “natural wastage”, but we will consider giving people who are approaching retirement age, or who wish to retire, the opportunity to do that, and we will not be recruiting new staff to replace them. That is how we will be seeking to reduce administration costs.

69. At an early point, those provisions should deliver savings of £600,000 and, at a later point, should deliver savings of £1·2 million. If we do not deliver those savings, the Department of Finance and Personnel will want to know why, because that was what was set out at the outset. We will work with the staff on all of that. In my view, the trade unions are quite pleased with the idea of a single library authority, provided that they have some guarantees that their staff will be treated fairly.

70. I can again indicate that the trade unions are wholly opposed to the library authority coming under the remit of local government — they can give the reasons for that themselves. I trust that that gives you some comfort about how the staffing issues will be addressed.

71. Mr P Ramsey: Regarding equality issues and rural proofing, I accept the point about the Department of Finance and Personnel. However, we are not going to improve people’s education, and therefore their opportunities for work, by taking that level of money out of the service.

72. Regarding the location of the library authority, I hope that it is not just talk about having subregional forums or panels. I hope that they are going to be structured and that there is a place to ensure that people in the subregions have ownership of that single library authority.

73. Mr Poots: I would love the headquarters to be modest and to house a modest number of staff. Some people talked previously about a chief executive with eight deputies. That will not be the case. There was some confusion with the education authorities. A maximum of three individuals will head the key and corporate services in the authority, and they will not have deputy chief executive status.

74. We all know that rural life has become more difficult in recent years. Planning has played a key role in that, and a lot of services have been removed from our towns and villages. Services such as filling stations, shops, restaurants and pubs, which are associated with local villages, have disappeared.

75. Ultimately, we, as the public sector, need to consider how best to deliver services in rural areas. I want a more joined-up approach with other service providers in those areas. I have said this before: whether it is the local authority that is providing the community centre or the libraries, or it is the GPs who are providing services, if we can get all those services under one roof, there will be a much more sustainable facility.

76. One of the issues that I will want to give direction on to a future chief executive of a single library authority is that we should consider how we can join public services in rural areas up so that they can be delivered at the lowest cost to the public sector but with the highest possible service to the public. That is something that I will be aspiring to do. Rural issues are very close to my heart, and I want to see the library services continuing to be delivered in those areas.

77. The mobile library — which is something that I should declare a personal interest in, as my father uses that service — provides a lifeline to many people who are housebound or who have mobility difficulties. That is certainly a service that I want to see continued and not reduced in any way.

78. Mr Shannon: Minister, you are welcome to the Committee. It is good to see you here. It appears that the chief executive of the proposed library authority, whoever that may be, will have to do much more than an ordinary chief executive.

79. I want to reiterate Mr Ramsey’s question about rural proofing. I welcome the Minister’s response about the importance of the Library Service to the rural community, especially mobile libraries. I hope that that can be built on and encouraged rather than minimised in any way.

80. I have two questions for the Minister. The first relates to discussions with the education and library boards. What discussions have taken place between your Department and the education and library boards, and what has been the initial response from the boards? I know that board members will be attending a meeting of the Committee in a fortnight’s time, but I am curious to know about the Minister’s initial discussions with the boards.

81. Secondly, the Minister rightly indicated that moneys will be saved after the introduction of the new Libraries Bill; that is to be welcomed. However, would it not have been better value for money if that money had been used to keep the current Library Service in place before dismantling it?

82. Mr Poots: I will ask Mr Jack to respond on the level of discussion that has taken place with the education and library boards. I have a caveat; I am not sure what the education boards or authorities would want to say when they appear before the Committee. However, it may be in their interests to retain libraries within the education authority, as it would constitute a larger empire than the two being separated. The Department and the Committee will focus on the delivery of quality library services to the public and on finding the best way to do that.

83. Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): There has been significant ongoing engagement with the education and library boards since the decision to opt for a single regional library authority was announced by direct rule Ministers in 2006. A meeting was held between the then Minister with responsibility for culture, arts and leisure, David Hanson, and the chairpersons of the boards. Since then, regular meetings have taken place between the permanent secretary and the chief executives of the boards, approximately every six months, and there have been more frequent meetings between the Department and the chief librarians and other significant officers in the boards, such as chief finance officers, who will be involved in the implementation.

84. The Department of Education has established structures for the new education and skills authority. As issues will arise that will be in common with the establishment of the library authority, the Department has engaged in those structures along with the education and library boards. The chief executive designate has already initiated a round of meetings with all the boards, and there will be meetings between the Minister and the boards later this week at chairman and chief executive level.

85. Mr Poots: In answer to the second question, there will be set-up costs — identified at some £670,000 — which have been secured to deliver the single library authority. Ultimately, I go back to what I said at the start: we will move when we are ready to move, and that will happen in the most efficient and seamless way possible so that the transfer can take place from the education and library boards to a single library authority with the least impact on staff and services. That timescale should not be set by arbitrary dates — either an early or late date. It should focus on delivering the transfer in the most efficient way possible.

86. Mr Shannon: I welcome the Minister’s response.

87. Mr P Maskey: The work of the Committee is concerned with how best to professionalise the service provided by libraries in the best way possible. Some of the issues that I want to mention have already been touched on, but perhaps they could be discussed in a wee bit more depth. The changes will affect rural and urban areas, and areas of high deprivation. Is anything specific planned for those areas where people may find it difficult to buy books or to have the Internet installed in their homes?

88. The importance of working with chief librarians and their deputies was mentioned. I want to know how exactly that work will enable staff at lower grades to voice their opinions on the Libraries Bill. That is important, because from talking to library staff, it is clear that each knows how best to run their libraries. Therefore, we should not get stuck on talking to chief librarians and the most senior Library Service staff; we must work out how best to consult those who work in the libraries.

89. We will be talking to union representatives in the next few weeks, and we will obviously listen to the views of many of the stakeholders. It is good that we will have the chance to do that. However, I am sure that the Minister is aware that all the groups that will give evidence to the Committee will raise concerns. Therefore we must listen to and process those concerns.

90. I am glad to hear that the front-line services will not be hit. However, we must work out how to professionalise those services to ensure that more people use libraries and to ensure that we use libraries to help education provision generally.

91. Mr Poots: Internet access has provided a lifeline to many in the immigrant community. Many such people who are working in Northern Ireland use the Internet extensively to retain contact with their friends and families. A new single library authority will operate under the principles of targeting social need, which covers all Departments. Working under those principles, my Department will consider what it can do.

92. Irene will explain how she intends to cut through senior management and talk to library staff about how best to deliver services.

93. Ms Knox: The establishment of a new library authority represents a major change process for staff, among whom there is a great deal of concern about what is happening. As I said in my introductory remarks, I want to talk to staff. Library staff know what is required, and their managers should also be aware of those requirements. I have already visited each of the chief librarians, many of whom took me to some of their branch libraries to meet staff. I intend to spend more time getting out and meeting people to find out what they want.

94. It is also important that I set up consultation mechanisms with staff. In addition to doing that through the trade unions, the library authority will provide opportunities for non-union staff to communicate their views on what should happen in the future.

95. Mr Maskey mentioned professionalising the service and its staff. The new authority will be able to examine strategically the training needs of library staff and to work effectively with providers on how to ensure that staff receive the necessary training. That will differ greatly from the training that I received 20 years ago as a librarian; life has moved on, and libraries — and the needs of the people who use them — have changed. The new library authority must ensure that staff have the necessary skills to provide the required level of service.

96. Mr K Robinson: I thank the Minister and his staff for coming this morning. I shall ask a simple question first: how much was bid for the new library authority for 2008-09? If that amount is greater than what the Department currently spends on the library service, by how much? That is the easy question — your starter for 10.

97. The Minister knows that a series of issues will arise. However, I want to discuss structures and mechanisms, which have been mentioned. The feeling of a cold, efficient and remote service is beginning to form in my mind. A library should be a warm and welcoming place for everyone, from the smallest customer who comes in at two or three years of age to the elderly lady or gentleman who tootles in for a book once a week or once a month.

98. I will cite an example of what happened under the former regime. A library was closed down despite being based in a community school on the fringes of a marginalised community. What impact had that on the community? Great opportunities to learn, to introduce children to the joys of reading, to get teenagers in the nearby youth club involved in research and all sorts of programmes, were lost.

99. Can you or Ms Knox assure me that the new system — efficient and cost effective as it may be — will deliver the warm, caring, helpful, developing service that those communities and individuals need?

100. Mr Poots: Having sat with you on the former Committee of the Centre for years, Ken, I was concerned when you said that you would ask a simple question. I knew that that phrase was the preamble to an awkward question. I do not have figures for the Department’s bids for funding for the year 2008-09. I assure members that the Department bids for more funding than it currently receives. That is how we operate; we always ask for more.

101. Mr K Robinson: I am surprised to hear that, Minister. I thought that your Department’s bid would be absolutely accurate and in keeping with the facts.

102. Mr Poots: No. My Department bids for a little more than it would normally anticipate receiving.

103. I cannot tell the Committee that no libraries will ever be closed during my term of office. It would be wrong of me to do that. My Department’s desire is not to close libraries, but to provide a better service to the public. Closing libraries does not help the Department to provide a better service. In the past, certain libraries may have been not well used for particular reasons. In any future discussions on whether to close libraries, the arguments for closure would have to be strong to persuade the Department to take such action.

104. Ultimately, if certain libraries are in difficulty or are not attracting people, we need to look first at why that is happening and see whether the issues can be addressed so as to get more people through the doors of those libraries and ensure that those services are properly utilised. Closure should be the last option. That is the direction that my Department will take.

105. Mr K Robinson: Minister, is Irene going to address my question on the warm, caring ethos of the modern and future library?

106. Mr Poots: Absolutely.

107. Ms Knox: Libraries are a valuable resource for the community. Young babies are brought in by their mothers and are introduced to books at an early stage in life; teenagers come in to do homework; members of immigrant populations come in to use the Internet; and elderly people’s use of libraries may form an important aspect of their contact with the public. Libraries play those roles in communities, and I intend to ensure that they continue to do that for the whole community.

108. Libraries must be welcoming, or people will not use them. No one forces anyone to enter a library. Use of libraries is not compulsory and there is no eligibility or entry requirement to be met. People enter libraries voluntarily, so they must be welcoming.

109. Mr K Robinson: We all agree with you that libraries must be welcoming. The danger, however, is that the members of staff most likely to leave under the new regime are those with the most warm and welcoming attitude. The service will lose those experienced members of staff. Every organisation that modernises and becomes more efficient becomes more remote and less welcoming to its customers, in whatever business it operates. How will you address that potential loss of those staff members who form the core of the system? I do not mean those at the top of the organisation, but rather those whom you meet while walking through the library. If they are cold and remote in their attitude, customers will not want to be in the library and will want to leave.

110. Ms Knox: The Library Service needs to retain front-line staff. Those who work at the front line in branch libraries are those who have an interest in helping the public, and we must retain them. As the Minister said, the central administration needs to be looked at.

111. Staff will always leave the service, through natural wastage, retirement, and so on. However, we must ensure sure that younger front-line staff joining the service understand the type of ethos that should exist in our libraries and that they have the skills to deliver the kind of warm, welcoming service about which the member spoke.

112. Mr K Robinson: Is a training programme in place?

113. Ms Knox: We do not have a training programme in place yet, but there will be one.

114. Mr K Robinson: It worries me that the service will become more like commercial businesses, where customers are welcomed with the question: “What do you want?” The next step on from that is: “We do not have it.”

115. Mr Poots: I encourage Committee members to visit some libraries. I have visited several libraries, and members will find that they are welcoming environments. They are not like the libraries that I remember as a 10- or 11-year-old child, where the atmosphere was quiet and people had to move around silently looking for books. Libraries have moved on, and our larger modern libraries are certainly more vibrant places nowadays. I encourage Committee members to get out there. Mention was made about talking to the staff who deliver front-line services, and it would be useful for the Committee to talk to such staff.

116. Mr K Robinson: This morning, my wife was talking to a librarian in my house, so I am ahead of the Minister on that one.

117. Mr Poots: The Committee will find that those people are keen to have a bigger focus on libraries and on the service that they provide.

118. Mr D Bradley: Maidin mhaith, a Chathaoirligh. Good morning, Minister. Tá céad míle fáilte romhat go dtí an Coiste.

119. Minister, I wrote to you on 25 July 2007 about the consultancy exercise that is being carried out by Deloitte. I had several concerns about that matter, one of which was the unholy haste with which we were proceeding with the single libraries authority, without due knowledge of the costs involved. I was also concerned that the Committee was not properly informed about that particular consultancy and that, to some extent, we were working in the dark.

120. Minister, I thank you for your response, dated 8 August 2007, in which you state that before a decision was taken to create a free-standing library authority, an exercise had been undertaken to identify the hidden corporate costs of delivering the public library service. Paragraph 14 of the explanatory and financial memorandum to the Bill states that:

“An exercise to identify the cost of the support services is underway.”

121. Will you comment on the outcome of that exercise and tell us how it has informed the process?

122. Mr Poots: As regards haste, I explained at the start of the meeting that from 19 July 2007, we were operating under a different scenario, which changed the situation considerably. We are happy to work within the new parameters, but we nonetheless seek to deliver as efficiently as possible.

123. We must remember what the Deloitte report is about. I will use an analogy: it is akin to someone deciding to open a shop, choosing the right location, and then bringing people in to see how it will be fitted out. The report is concerned with drilling down to the detail of how corporate services will be delivered.

124. The Chairperson: The report also deals with financial systems, does it not?

125. Mr Poots: It deals with financial systems and gets down to the detail. The big decision is made on the basis of the prevailing evidence; more detail is then needed when making the smaller decisions. The report identifies how we can best deliver financial services. The view now is that we should use the DCAL system to deliver financial services to the other non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) in DCAL’s remit. I think that that was the recommendation from Deloitte, but I may stand to be corrected.

126. Mr Jack: The Department has the Deloitte report and has shared it with the Committee. However, consideration of the report’s recommendations is still at an early stage, and the Department will need to work with the Minister and the chief executive designate to determine the best options. Deloitte has made certain recommendations, and we will need to consider those carefully.

127. Mr D Bradley: Will the Minister assure the Committee that it will be kept informed when the Department is undertaking that work?

128. Earlier, the chief executive designate spoke earlier about the changing role of libraries. Obviously, we live in a changing society. However, many people’s view is that libraries play a passive role in education, lifelong learning, and in the communities in which they are set. Will the Minister and chief executive designate assure the Committee that, under the single library authority, libraries will play a more dynamic and vibrant role in education, in lifelong learning and in their host communities; and will they explain how that is to be achieved?

129. Mr Poots: Earlier, I said that when we visited libraries we found that opportunities were being taken; for example, in IT training. In addition, some libraries were bringing people in for reading sessions while others were placing emphasis on young people who were involved in examinations. I have also said that one of the problems is that there is a degree of “ad hoc-ery” taking place.

130. My Department’s vision is for a flexible and responsive Library Service that provides a dynamic focal point in communities and assists people to fulfil their potential and having a single library authority and a chief executive can bring a focus to lifelong learning and to all of the areas to which Mr Bradley has referred. The Library Service, as it stands, is being delivered through five discrete streams with differing priorities.

131. Ms Knox: I believe passionately that libraries should be a dynamic focal point for local communities. However, that cannot be the case unless they become active participants in the processes within the local community that determine the needs of that community and how services should be delivered. A lot of work has been done by the education and library boards over the past few years. However, we now have an opportunity to take that work a step further by taking a strategic approach across Northern Ireland and starting to build the partnerships that are required at strategic and local levels.

132. In many instances, I believe that libraries should lead the way in delivering a much broader social and educational agenda, and they should examine how they can play a very active role; whether it is in working with local further education colleges, schools, community groups or councils.

133. Lord Browne: I should like to take Dominic’s question a little bit further. One of the main components in delivering a high-quality service is cost, and although the Committee is in possession of quite a lot of documentation from Deloitte, it is difficult to quantify costs when those for corporate services, in particular, have not been identified. I know that there are difficulties because Library Service corporate and support services are part of the general administration of the education and library boards. However, it is very difficult for the Committee to make informed decisions when it is not in possession of the figures for all of the costs.

134. We are in danger of proceeding at a very fast rate. I do not know when the Deloitte report on options for the provision of corporate services will be completed. Is there a date by which that report will be available?

135. We are proceeding rapidly along a particular track, and until decisions on RPA and on the future of the education and library boards are made, it will be difficult for the Committee to make informed decisions.

136. Mr Poots: The Department is waiting for the report from Deloitte. As has been indicated, the costs of delivering corporate services for libraries has been hidden in the larger education and library services pot, and there has been no division as yet. At some point, the cost of providing corporate services will be determined through best assumptions, as opposed to being able to say definitively how much it costs the education and library boards to provide those services to the library sector.

137. The cost of delivering corporate services is significant, and I have no doubt that DCAL’s views on those costs will differ from those of the education and library boards and that there will be quite a debate as to what the costs really are. We will have to drill down to get general agreement on the costs and on how they can be rolled over to the new single library authority.

138. Mr McCausland: In this morning’s presentation, the Minister spoke about a strong subregional structure. What will that mean in practice? Will it mean staff, buildings, or a committee at a subregional level? What powers would such a committee have?

139. Mr Poots: Any subregional structure would have to be based on the number of council areas that are agreed through the RPA and on how DCAL will work with those councils on delivering library services in their areas. In many cases the issue will be about how public services can be delivered in a more joined-up fashion; for example, whether we should have GP surgeries, libraries and community centres under one roof, or have a mix-and-match of services, which would be provided in ways that are not currently available. If services cannot be delivered to the public in a more comprehensive fashion, we will have failed.

140. Community planning will be a key element of RPA and it will play a key role in delivering library services and those provided by local authorities.

141. Ms Knox: As the Minister has said, the establishment of subregional structures will depend on the number of local councils there will be as a result of RPA. If the Library Service is to deliver co-ordinated and joined-up services, we must ensure that that is achieved coterminously with other local planning arrangements. The community planning process will be extremely important in delivering such a co-ordinated approach, and there will need to be structures in the regional library authority that will co-operate and work locally with bodies to ensure that such co-ordination is achieved.

142. That does not mean that large numbers of staff will be involved in co-ordination work. Such staff will be based in libraries, and we will need to use those libraries as the bases for going out into the local community, through a subregional structure, to ensure that we are co-operating with people locally.

143. Mr McCausland: I accept that such staff may be based in library buildings — it makes good economic sense. However, I am not clear about what they will be doing and to whom they will they be answerable. How will local input take place? Will it only come about through community planning or will it take place with the local authority in some other way?

144. Ms Knox: My thinking on these matters is still at an early stage as I have been in post for just two weeks. Through meetings with chief librarians and other members of staff, I am discussing how we can deliver local involvement and engagement; and as part of that process I will be talking to people in the community about how we can establish the subregional structure that I have spoken about. I cannot give the member a detailed answer yet, but I will be looking at the points he has raised immediately and I will be happy to come back to the Committee to speak about them in more detail when my thinking on the matter is clearer.

145. Mr Poots: In our discussions with the Minister of the Environment we considered how best DCAL could work with local authorities to deliver library services in their areas if responsibility for libraries is not to go to councils. We also discussed the type of services that local authorities would wish to provide.

146. The Department has not done anything definitive in that area and is seeking to engage on how best to proceed. We would welcome feedback from the Committee to help us come to a decision.

147. Mr McCausland: I raised the matter because it is not mentioned in the legislation. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw reference to it this morning as I am keen that there should be as much local input as possible, particularly through elected representatives at council level. Has the idea of a subregional structure emerged recently? Is it a new development?

148. Mr Poots: It was something I discussed with Minister Foster, because if we go for a single library authority then we would not want such a body to be remote. Delivering library services at subregional level is important. However, I am not sure about the time frame or whether the Department had been working on it previously.

149. Mr Jack: The Department was keeping a close eye on the discussions about community planning because we saw the process as one in which we would like the library authority to engage proactively. We had discussions about the type of legislation that would confer a duty on the authority to participate in the community planning process. The conclusion of those early discussions was that such provision would more properly be for inclusion in legislation that puts the community planning process in place rather than in legislation concerning libraries. The Department has had local engagement at the forefront of its thoughts from the outset.

150. The Chairperson: We will move to a conclusion, as I am mindful that the Minister has been very generous with his time. I ask Kieran McCarthy and David McNarry for last comments.

151. Mr McCarthy: I want to return to a response that the Minister gave to Pat Ramsey earlier. The question concerned possible cutbacks in staff, or redundancies. I was not happy with the response, because the Minister immediately mentioned senior staff. The age of ageism is past. Senior staff have made an enormous contribution to the Library Service and they should not be put under pressure when change takes place.

152. The Chairperson: If David would make his point now, the Minister could give a composite answer.

153. Mr McNarry: The start-up costs for the so-called small unit for 2007-08 have been estimated at £670,000: £380,000 for staff salaries; £200,000 for consultancy; £85,000 for premises, and £6,000 for support for board members, whatever that entails. It appears that, as the Minister has said, there is cover for the in-year monitoring bid. However, will new contingency cost factors create different figures? In light of the Deloitte consultancy exercise, it is expected that corporate services will require the figures to be revised upwards. What does the Minister now estimate the start-up costs to be? He might need to come back to the Committee with those figures. What impact would delaying a start-up to 2009-10, for example, have on those costs? How confident is the Minister that he can sustain his monitoring bid beyond 2007-08?

154. Mr Poots: The estimated start-up costs are still £670,000. That is the Department’s bid, and it will seek to manage with that sum.

155. Mr McNarry: Is the Minister saying that the costs will be the same in two years’ time?

156. Mr Poots: No. The establishment of the library authority will incur certain costs. However, the start-up costs — the costs of putting in place the structures that are necessary to create the single library authority — are £670,000. The Department has estimated that initial savings from the delivery of those services will be around £600,000 and that they will rise to around £1·2 million per annum. Costs may be incurred in order to reach the point at which such savings can be made.

157. The member asked what the costs would be if the Department were to delay the introduction of the library authority until 2009-10. The Department has no intention to delay until then; indeed, it has indicated that it will progress at the appropriate time. It has, therefore, not worked out the costs of such a delay. If the Department were to decide to hold back for a year, there would be additional costs.

158. Mr McNarry: If you will permit me to do so, Chairman, and with all due respect to the Minister, I must point out that he has also been telling the Committee about appropriate times, and so on, with regard to the stadium. Can he not give us a date? It is difficult for the Committee to work towards an outcome when it does not know when that will occur.

159. Mr Poots: The Department provided a date, which was 1 April 2008.

160. Mr McNarry: The Minister said that the Department could move from that date.

161. Mr Poots: Yes. The Committee’s desire this morning appears to be that the Department should not be bound by the date of 1 April 2008 and that it should consider delaying the matter until 1 April 2009. First, I am not sure that the Department could wait until 2009, given that the education and library boards may not wait until then. Secondly, if its work has been completed and the best solutions have been identified, why should the Department wait until 1 April 2009? Therefore the date of 1 April 2008 is aspirational.

162. On the other hand, why should the Department force itself to do something on 1 April 2008 if it is not ready to do so — just because that date has been set? Ultimately, the Department will move forward when the time is right. The momentum to deliver the new service on 1 April 2008 exists, and that momentum must be maintained.

163. Mr McNarry: That momentum has come from the Minister and his Department since the start. They are rushing the matter.

164. Mr Poots: That momentum existed before I came into office. The establishment of the single library authority was agreed by the Executive, and the appointment of the chief executive designate and the team will help keep that momentum going. I do not see any reason to stop the momentum if that is the desired outcome.

165. With regard to Mr McCarthy’s comments, the Department is not seeking any enforced redundancies. Staff will have an opportunity to take other positions and will also have the option to retire if that is what they wish to do. However, no one will be forced to do so. Ultimately, the Department is seeking to deliver savings in administration, and that will require fewer staff in the administration of library services rather than at the front line.

166. Mr McCarthy: I am glad to hear that senior staff are not to be targeted.

167. The Chairperson: By using the word “senior”, do you mean age, Kieran?

168. Mr McCarthy: Yes.

169. Mr Shannon: Speaking as a 63-year-old, I am relieved to hear it.

170. The Chairperson: I thank the Minister, Colin and Irene for speaking to the Committee. I have no doubt that we will meet again.

171. Mr Poots: Thank you.

13 September 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mrs Anne Connolly Ms Katherine McCloskey Ms Helen Osborn		Association of Chief Librarians
Ms Elga Logue Mr John McCormick Dr Bob McKee		Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals Ireland
Mr John Gray Mr Kirby Porter		Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)

172. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I thank the Association of Chief Librarians for its attendance and I welcome Ms Katherine McCloskey, Ms Helen Osborn and Mrs Anne Connolly. They will be the first set of witnesses to give evidence to the Committee on the Libraries Bill today.

173. Mrs Anne Connolly (Association of Chief Librarians): Good morning and thank you. I am the director of library and corporate services in the North Eastern Education and Library Board (NEELB). I am here in my capacity as chairperson of the Association of Chief Librarians (ACL). I am accompanied by my colleagues Helen Osborn, who is chief librarian of the Western Education and Library Board (WELB), and Katherine McCloskey, who is chief librarian of the Belfast Education and Library Board (BELB).

174. The association, which was established in 1973 by the chief executives, comprises the five education and library boards. As chief librarians, we are the senior officers who work on the steering group, and we are responsible for the development, management and delivery of library services to the public and to schools in Northern Ireland. At present, there are 113 static libraries and 28 mobile libraries, which deliver services to hard-to-reach areas and to people who are housebound. There are also 11 mobile libraries attached to the schools’ library service.

175. Over the past few years, one of the key objectives of the association has been to try to harmonise services across the education and library boards. One of the most successful outcomes has been the establishment of the electronic libraries service, which has provided a single network for all libraries in Northern Ireland. One example of how that has improved customer service is that each customer now has a single library card that they may use in any library in Northern Ireland to access books or use a computer. In addition, a library member may borrow a book from any Northern Ireland library and return it to any other library of their choice. That seamless service has already been established, and Northern Ireland was the first region to achieve it.

176. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s vision is for a flexible and responsive public library service that provides a dynamic focal point in the community and assists people to fulfil their potential. Obviously, the association concurs with that and believes that libraries in Northern Ireland are well on the way to achieving that vision.

177. At the outset, we wish to dispel the myth that libraries are just about issuing books, and we are concerned that, despite the wide range of activities in which libraries engage, the emphasis in measuring performance is still based on the number of books that are issued. We wish to draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that library services currently extend to: the provision of Internet and website-use classes; open-learning centres; study space and homework assistance; activities and support for ethnic minorities and disadvantaged groups; the staging of events and exhibitions, and reading initiatives for all age groups, including the famous Bookstart programme, which is a highly successful initiative that is run in conjunction with Sure Start.

178. Although most of those activities take place in libraries, some are delivered as outreach programmes by library staff in venues across Northern Ireland. We particularly wish to draw attention to the fact that library staff work in places other than libraries to deliver library services.

179. Each year, public libraries in Northern Ireland welcome more than seven million visitors; deal with approximately 1·5 million enquiries; lend approximately 10 million items, and provide access to 1,200 computers with broadband internet access.

180. In the past year, the association has worked closely with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to produce ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’, the new policy for the development of public libraries in Northern Ireland. We believe that that policy sets the context for the delivery of a high-quality library service. It is the association’s view that quality of service should be the priority when it comes to establishing the structure for delivering library services in Northern Ireland.

181. To assure a high-quality service that best meets the needs of the customer, several key factors should be taken into account. We strongly feel that library services should be free at the point of delivery and that coterminosity with other service providers should be considered to facilitate community planning and successful partnership working. There should be a single-transfer system for all education and library board employees, and we are in favour of maintaining and developing links with the education sector.

182. Finally, we wish to emphasise that the continued delivery and further development of a high-quality service is dependent on the availability of adequate resources. In that regard, the affordability of a new structure is paramount to the decision-making process.

183. Thank you for your attention.

184. The Chairperson: Thank you, Anne. Members may now ask questions.

185. Mr McCarthy: I thank the association for its presentation and congratulate it on what has been achieved to date. At the end of this exercise, we hope that that work will be enhanced.

186. You said that services should be free at the point of delivery. Clause 6 of the Libraries Bill deals with charges for certain library services. In your submission, you explained that you do not believe that the Bill, as currently drafted, provides enough protection for core library services to remain free of charge. Please explain what you perceive to be the potential problems of not clarifying in the Bill that core services will remain free of charge, and do you have a suggested form of wording that could be added to the Bill to guarantee the provision of free core services?

187. Ms Katherine McCloskey (Association of Chief Librarians): We are concerned because the idea of a free library service is inherent in the public library service. It should be free at the point of delivery. However, clause 6 of the Libraries Bill states: “(1) The Authority may not make any charges for any library services provided by it unless—

(a) the services in question are specified in a scheme of charges approved by the Department …

(2) The scheme of charges may make different provision for different cases including different provision in relation to different persons, circumstances or localities.”

188. The existing legislation made it very clear that the library service would be free except for itemised lists of services that libraries could charge for. UK legislation provides for that sort of arrangement. The English legislation and the current Northern Ireland legislation address charges in that way. This Bill’s wording suggests that a broader potential for charging might be implemented, or might be specified, in the future. Existing legislation seems to cover the matter better. We are worried that there is potential to raise funding in the future by increasing library service charges, and that that might be used to augment other services if there was a budget shortfall, for example.

189. Mr Shannon: You have said that the number of people on the board of the proposed authority will not be sufficient to deal with the workload. The changes are being made for several reasons, and one of the advantages of those changes will be that it will maximise savings. At the same time, the continuation of the service is critical. How many members should there be on the board of the library authority and what evidence do you have to suggest that it may not be able to deliver services?

190. You also referred to the mobile library service. I think you mentioned that there are ten mobile libraries, is that correct?

191. Mrs Connolly: There are 11 in schools.

192. The Chairperson: The figure was 28.

193. Mrs Connolly: We are also responsible for the schools’ library service, but under the new legislation that will not be the case.

194. Mr Shannon: I am keen to ask a question based on your experience, Mrs Connolly — and Ms Osborn may wish to answer also. If you could do one thing to improve the mobile library service, what would that be?

195. Mrs Connolly: We have debated the size of the authority at length. However, our experience is based on dealing with library committees. Currently, the library committee within each education and library board comprises between 12 and 15 people. If the library authority is to recruit people who are interested in library services and would be interested in regularly attending meetings, such people might be very busy already and might have to drive long distances. The authority will therefore need to recruit around 20 members to get a quorum and ensure that local and regional interests are looked after.

196. There is also the view that being a board member — as some Committee members, being board members, will know — is not just about being on a steering group or governing body; it is also about assisting in other committees. The association expects that the library authority will have to have an audit committee and a finance committee. Therefore the smaller the number of people involved, the smaller the pool from which the authority can draw. It will be asking busy people to attend a lot of meetings.

197. Ms Helen Osborn (Association of Chief Librarians): Mr Shannon is right to suspect that I would like to answer the question about mobile libraries. The mobile library service is extremely important in rural areas, but it is also important in city areas, particularly areas of targeting social need.

198. There are two ways in which the mobile library service could be improved. First, it could provide more outreach activities. Typically, a mobile library pulls up in a village or a housing estate and stays for an hour or two. During that time people come on board and borrow books, and, in some places, they also use the Internet. That mobile library would be staffed by one person. We would like to be able to provide the same outreach activities as branch libraries, such as playgroup visits, storytelling sessions, local history sessions, IT taster sessions — the full gamut of library services. However, additional staffing is required for that. The Western Education and Library Board has been fortunate to have had external funding to pilot such a service. Outreach activity is important if people are to experience the full benefits of a library service.

199. Secondly, there could be greater scope for partnership working. Recently, a scheme was piloted in a rural part of the Western Education and Library Board area in which post-office services were provided on the mobile library while a sub-post office was being rebuilt. It is important that such joined-up strategic partnerships are considered. That was a great pilot project, and it worked well for local people and for both services. However, the ideal scenario would be to have strategic partnerships with other organisations serving rural areas, using customised vehicles to meet the needs of the local community and provide the full range of services.

200. Mr D Bradley: I share your concern about clause 6(2) of the Bill, which relates to charges. It seems to be granting power to vary charges according to locality and even according to individuals. That seems to partially defeat the aim of having a single authority. However, the explanatory and financial memorandum claims that the approach in clause 6: “retains the approach of the Education and Libraries Order but simplifies the provisions.”

201. Do you agree?

202. Secondly, what linkages should there be between the Northern Ireland library authority and the education and skills authority? How would those be reflected in service delivery?

203. Ms McCloskey: Members of the association are nervous that the previous legislation stated that libraries would be free at the point of delivery, except for certain services that were listed. Why remove that provision? It was clear which services would be charged for. If libraries are to be free at the point of delivery, and there is no intention to raise or to make extra charges, why change the legislation? It has worked well for many years. Such a provision is not in the UK legislation, and we, as an association, are nervous that it may open the door to further charges.

204. Mr D Bradley: Would an itemised list of charges be helpful?

205. Ms McCloskey: It would probably make association members happier if potential charges were clearly listed.

206. Mr D Bradley: Can you give us examples?

207. Ms McCloskey: If a library provides items, such as a photocopies or book lists, which then become the properties of a person, that person would be charged for the items. In the previous legislation, there was a list, which specified the items and services that could be charged for. I would be very nervous if such a list were not included in the Bill. The phrasing could be taken from UK legislation or it could be just as it was in the previous legislation — why change it?

208. Mr D Bradley: What form of linkage do you think there should be between the Northern Ireland library authority and the education and skills authority, and how should that be reflected in service delivery?

209. Ms Osborn: We believe that there are three key areas in which it will be important for public libraries and education to work together. One is the schools’ library service. Currently, we manage both the public library service and the schools’ library service, which has a number of benefits, one of which is financial. We share premises, IT systems, members of staff, stock contracts, and so on. More importantly, the arrangement enables us to provide a holistic service to children and young people whether at home or at school, and the two services work closely together on extended schools information, literacy, the revised curriculum; all of the key education agendas.

210. Early years education is another important area, and public libraries have always done a great deal with pre-school children using programmes such as Bookstart. Early years education is now the responsibility of the Department of Education, which makes it even more important that libraries and education work together in that area.

211. Public libraries have a great deal to contribute to literacy and lifelong learning. It will be important that the linkages between the education and skills authority and the library authority will be in place at the strategic and operational levels. Our concern is that organisations, during periods of change, or when they are being created, tend to be internally focused. Therefore, it will be extremely important that the links are maintained. It will also be important that all subregional structures in the new library authority will be reflected in the education and skills authority and in the councils so that community planning becomes another device for joined-up working.

212. The Chairperson: Mrs Connolly, would you give a composite answer to the next questions, which will be from Mr McCausland and Mr Ramsey?

213. Mr McCausland: There are two points on which I require clarification. What potential difficulties are there for the transfer of staff, particularly if the single library authority does not start at the same time as the single education authority? Secondly, and you have raised questions about this matter; do you think that the Department is overestimating the savings that can be made?

214. Mr P Ramsey: I would like to acknowledge the contribution that the association is making to lifelong learning. Given that the Minister said during the last Committee meeting that efficiency savings on pay have been projected at almost £1·5 million, how will you be able to provide an enhanced service in lifelong learning in educational centres of excellence with reduced resources? You are saying that you need additional resources. How will you be able to provide the same level of service, given that in Northern Ireland, one in four adults has low levels of literacy and numeracy? How will you effect change?

215. Mrs Connolly: I will answer Mr McCausland’s question first. Many of our staff work across public libraries and school libraries, and currently all of them are education and library board staff. Our concern is that if public library services move first, we will have to determine who our public library staff are and get a transfer scheme in place for them in advance of the creation of the education and skills authority. More importantly, opportunities for them to apply for other posts, to which they are entitled as education and library board staff, would be removed because they would no longer be part of the RPA-affected group.

216. Staff are already quite stressed and worried about their jobs. We would prefer the organisations to move together. At present, we are managing people in both sections. We believe that there should be a clean break. People would then be able to see the various opportunities and apply for the jobs that suit their future needs. It is a people issue.

217. Katherine McCloskey will answer the question on funding.

218. Ms McCloskey: The question was on what we believe the savings will be. Paragraph 13 of the explanatory and financial memorandum states: “Unifying five separate library services will, in time, lead to efficiency savings”.

219. The memorandum goes on to quote savings of £600,000 in 2009-10, rising to £1·2 million. There is no specific indication as to where those savings will be made, apart from unifying the services and reducing staff. We do know the current budget for the five library services. Over the past few years, my colleagues and I have been working to reduce our staffing levels because of reductions in funding for the Library Service. Indications are that the new library authority will have a budget of £30 million, which is not a lot more than what we are running the service on at present — and we are struggling. The Belfast Education and Library Board will face a shortfall of £750,000 next year. We do not feel confident that savings will be made without swingeing cuts.

220. There is some indication that we have a large number of senior and middle managers. I have 25 staff, classified as professional librarians and managers, for all of Belfast, covering 20 branch libraries, the schools’ library service and the central reference library. We are not awash with staff. The indications are that the new library authority will struggle to provide even the level of service provided at present with the stated budget. We cannot understand where the savings will come from, and that is worrying. Northern Ireland deserves a quality library service. I have spent my life in the library service. Northern Ireland has an excellent library service and the people of Northern Ireland deserve a high-quality, well-funded service that will provide not just excellent community libraries and mobile libraries, but will be able to fund reference and research collections and support the wonderful local studies and collections that exist throughout Northern Ireland.

221. The Chairperson: Have Mr Ramsey’s questions been answered?

222. Mrs Connolly: You may have picked up some of the answers. We are wholly behind ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’, which is the Department’s vision for the future of library services. However, as has been rightly said, there is much more to libraries than issuing books. Many areas need to be developed, and we are not convinced that the money is available to do that. We have all been in difficult positions, as members will know. In making cuts in our board area, some of our learning centres have fallen by the wayside, as we cannot afford to fund them.

223. Mr P Ramsey: Do you believe that cutbacks are imminent? That will entail more than job losses.

224. Mrs Connolly: Who knows? The North Eastern Education and Library Board has already offered premature retirement to as many people who want it, and it does not have many more people to let go. The funding issue and the development of services are major concerns. In the past, we have asked the Department of Education and the Department for Employment and Learning to fund areas that we believed fell under their umbrella. The money that we get from Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure is for the core library service. However, we have not had any success in getting funding from other Departments.

225. The Chairperson: Thank you, Anne, Katherine and Helen, for coming along this morning.

226. The next witnesses to come before the Committee are from the Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals (CILIP). Following CILIP’s five-minute overview of its written submission, members will have a chance to ask questions. I will try to give preference to members who did not question the first set of witnesses. Dr Bob McKee will lead the presentation. Witnesses, you are all welcome, and the Committee is looking forward to hearing your evidence.

227. Dr Bob McKee (Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals Ireland): Good morning. My colleagues, Elga Logue, John McCormick and I represent CILIP. In my allotted five minutes, I want to cover three areas: some background information on CILIP, our position on the proposals on the way forward for public libraries in Northern Ireland, and comments on the draft legislation.

228. CILIP was formerly known as the Library Association, and some members may know it by that name. It was established about 130 years ago and received the royal charter in 1898. It is long-established as the professional and regulatory body for the library information sector across the UK.

229. We are responsible for maintaining the register of qualified practitioners for all parts of the library and information spectrum across the UK, not only public libraries. We provide opportunities for networking, professional development and advocacy on professional issues. It is worth saying that, in Northern Ireland, we have consistently worked across all divides for more than 30 years. A North/South liaison committee has held an annual conference for 30-plus years, without fail. That commendable record is due more to my two colleagues than to me.

230. We form a community of about 35,000 people who are engaged in library and information work across the UK, of whom about 12,500 are on the register of qualified practitioners, and, of those, about 3,200 work in public libraries. Therefore, we can speak from an authoritative base. We have been involved throughout the current sequence of initiatives on public library policy in Northern Ireland.

231. I was involved in the work that led to the original ‘Tomorrow’s Libraries’ report in 2002. Recently, I was a member of the appointments panel that recruited a chief executive designate for the new library authority. We have submitted evidence at every stage of the consultation process and have provided assistance to DCAL officials, both in their work on policy development and in their early preparations for the new authority.

232. We strongly agree with the role and vision of public libraries that is outlined in the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ report. We welcome the introduction of a published set of standards, which is in the annex to the report. We welcome the commitment to the equitable distribution of resources and the consequent commitment to equity in library provision across Northern Ireland. We welcome the establishment of a new library authority, which provides an opportunity to strengthen the Library Service in Northern Ireland by building on the collaborative work that has already been carried out across the current five education and library boards. The Committee heard reference to that during the previous submission.

233. It seems highly appropriate that the new political Administration in Northern Ireland should, as one of its first acts, enact legislation to strengthen the Library Service, because libraries have a role to play in any civilised society in relation to opportunity, equity, democracy, and human rights. For that reason, we are glad to be here.

234. Most of the points that we want to make on the legislation are contained in our written submission, but I want to highlight just a few. The duty of the new library authority that is set out in the Bill should refer explicitly to the set of standards of provision that citizens can expect. The principle of the Library Service being free at the point of use, which is safeguarded in the Bill, should be strengthened by making it clear that the scheme of charges cannot include charging for any core elements of the service. That requires definition.

235. We doubt the validity of the specific levels of efficiency savings and start-up costs that are set out in the explanatory and financial memorandum. There is a real danger that a declaration of such efficiencies will cause the new authority to be born into a negative climate of cutbacks, rather than a positive climate of service development.

236. Although the memorandum refers to start-up costs, there is no explicit reference to transition costs, such as the inevitable costs of redundancies. There must be more clarity about where those figures come from and what they mean.

237. My next point has already been made by the previous witnesses. The present link with education provides a close collaboration between libraries and schools. That must not be lost. A framework agreement between the new library and education authorities will be necessary.

238. I wish to draw the Committee’s attention to a point that is not included in our submission, which concerns the provision of advice to the Northern Ireland library authority. Legislation across the water makes provision for a body that used to be called the Library Advisory Council; its name has now been changed, intelligently, to the Advisory Council on Libraries. There might be some value in the Committee considering whether a similar advisory role should be enshrined in Northern Ireland legislation. That has been very helpful across the water.

239. That concludes our introductory comments.

240. Lord Browne: CILIP’s submission states that it is concerned that the start-up allocation of £670,000 may not be sufficient. Please explain why.

241. Dr McKee: We have seen the figure, but not how it was worked out. I mentioned in the submission that we need to know whether that figure includes transition costs and the inevitable costs of the transfer of undertakings and redundancies.

242. Lord Browne: The Committee understands that the new education and skills authority will not be in place until March 2009. Will there be any risks for CILIP if the new library authority is not established by April 2008?

243. Dr McKee: There is no threat to CILIP, because it is an independent body. However, we act in the public interest, which is why we are registered as a charity. There would be damage to the public interest if there were to be continuing uncertainty about the future of libraries in Northern Ireland. What is in the public interest is the orderly transition from the present situation to the new arrangement. We need clarity about that transition and its timetable.

244. Mr K Robinson: I thank the witness for his precise and concise opening remarks. In your submission, Dr McKee, you stated that there needs to be a clearer explanation in clause 4(8) as to what constitutes commercial activities. What are the problems with the way commercial activities are defined in the Bill? Is the definition that is contained in the Bill too broad or too narrow?

245. Dr McKee: We discussed that question immediately prior to the meeting. Clause 4(4) contains a helpful safeguard, namely that commercial activities are permitted so long as they do not interfere with the primary duties of the authority. The subsection that you referred to relates to specific types of commercial activities — the provision of services, and so on — and there is nothing wrong with that. Our problem is with the culture that that may create. Will success be judged using commercial, entrepreneurial, income-generating criteria, or, on social and educational criteria, as it ought to be?

246. Mr K Robinson: I see the danger of the “burger and a book” syndrome creeping in. Is that what you mean?

247. Dr McKee: Absolutely.

248. Ms Elga Logue (Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals Ireland): We asked whether a library that is situated in a highly populated area and that runs many activities might be judged on profit-making, as opposed to the quality of service it offered.

249. Mr K Robinson: Compared with a library in a rural situation?

250. Ms Logue: Exactly. We would not want to see a situation in which profit-making jeopardises other libraries, which may be doing tremendous work, but may not be making the same profits because of their location, perhaps in marginalised areas. That, however, does not mean that they are not good libraries — they may be doing wonderful work. The question is whether one assesses quality on the basis of issue figures, or on user satisfaction.

251. Mr K Robinson: I shall play devil’s advocate for a moment. In answer to Wallace’s question a moment ago, you said that the allocation for start-up costs would not cover those costs. However, if the opportunity of commercial input arises, the question becomes whether you would sell your soul to keep the system afloat, or keep the system pure because of the end benefits that we all want the library system to produce for us.

252. Mr McCormick: There is no reason why we cannot have both. Commercial activity for libraries per se is not wrong. Everyone wants to generate some money. We worry that libraries would be expected to become profit-making operations. That would be very difficult to do in many ways.

253. Mr K Robinson: For geographical and other reasons?

254. Mr McCormick: Yes.

255. Mr Brolly: You made an issue of the absence of the words “efficient and effective” and “comprehensive and efficient”. How important is that wording? Surely the efficiency and effectiveness of the Library Service will be down to those people who will eventually be given the job of running the libraries?

256. Dr McKee: It is very dangerous for things to be implicit in legislation and not explicit. The inclusion in the Bill of the words “comprehensive and efficient” would serve two purposes: it would align the Bill with legislation across the rest of the UK — and there is a value in that — and it would make explicit two requirements that you might think are implicit, but, hey, people change. The inclusion of the word “comprehensive” means that the service has to be inclusive of everyone — people with disabilities, people living in rural areas, and so on. That could get lost if the word is not in legislation for people to see. The word “efficient” is all about public service reform. Again, one would expect efficiency — that is understood — but it would be nice for it to be required in legislation.

257. Mr D Bradley: You mentioned the importance of the continuing close collaboration between libraries and schools. How do you think that the schools’ library service should be delivered in the new emerging context?

258. Dr McKee: That is a difficult one for me, because we are looking at this matter as a professional body, not in terms of the local operational detail. However, I listened as you asked the same question to the previous group of witnesses. It seems that there is a very clear understanding of what a schools’ library service is, and of the public libraries’ role and the schools’ role in that service. It would not, therefore, be impossible to construct a framework agreement between the two new authorities that would enshrine that. That framework could then be delivered among individual libraries and schools.

259. Mr McCarthy: Should a specific or stronger form of words be included in clause 6 so that the authority cannot charge for core services?

260. Dr McKee: Yes.

261. Ms Logue: Yes. Membership of public libraries has always been free. All the wonderful activities that go on in the library every day — storytelling, book clubs, and so on — are never charged for. In many ways, that is what makes a library service a quality service that reaches out to all groups — one that promotes social inclusion. The Bill should clearly define the core services that will remain free.

262. Dr McKee: One could extract a list of core services and write it down — I did that on the plane this morning. If a scheme of charges can be written down, a list of core services can too.

263. The Chairperson: I will allow Members to ask one other question, if anyone wants to take this opportunity to do so.

264. Mr K Robinson: The previous presentation touched on the issue that I wish to raise, and the Committee discussed it last week as well. In this new, wonderful world in which everything will be streamlined and reorganised and money will be saved, and so forth, individuals with tremendous experience may well find themselves in a position whereby they want to leave the service — or it may be advantageous to the service to see them leave. How do you cope with that experience gap? How do you fill it so that the service and delivery are not diluted?

265. Dr McKee: That is a central issue for us as the professional body, given that our job is professional development. I mentioned a figure of 12,500 qualified practitioners earlier, and less than 100 of them work in Northern Ireland. Thus, the gap already exists here. That workforce developmental issue has to be addressed at some level, and I do not think that the authority could address it unaided.

266. The Chairperson: I thank the CILIP team, Dr McKee, John and Elga for their contribution.

267. We now welcome Kirby Porter and John Gray from the Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland) (LISC (NI)). They will give a five-minute overview of their written submission and then they will take questions from members.

268. Mr Kirby Porter (Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)): I thank the Committee for inviting us here today.

269. LISC (NI) is a membership organisation that represents the main library providers in Northern Ireland. Members include public libraries, university and college libraries, and even libraries in the voluntary sector. Its two basic roles are to advise the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure on matters pertaining to libraries, and to engage in co-operative activities throughout the library world in Northern Ireland in order to advance libraries in all forms.

270. Three projects in which you may be interested will give you a flavour of the work that LISC does. One is that it is the Northern Ireland partner for Newsplan, which is a project to collect, preserve and make available newspapers throughout the United Kingdom and Ireland.

271. The second is Inspire NI, which is a project to widen access to all libraries, on a managed basis, to anyone in the Province. There are several other similar projects, including the Northern Ireland Publications Resource (NIPR), the funding for which comes through LISC. That project’s aim is to collect all material published in Northern Ireland and publications that relate to Northern Ireland.

272. As an organisation, LISC broadly welcomes the decision to create a single, strategic, library authority. However, our submission includes caveats which are, basically, the same as the concerns that have been raised today. They relate to the service’s comprehensiveness, charging, and the costs relating to its start-up and continuing functioning. In broad terms, the creation of a single library authority is a useful step forward for libraries and one that should be commended.

273. The Chairperson: I will offer Committee members the chance to ask questions — unless John has anything to add.

274. Mr John Gray (Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)): I have nothing to add. Kirby has said everything that I would wish to say.

275. Mr Shannon: You indicated your support for the single library service. In paragraph 3(d) of LISC’s written submission, it is stated that a single library authority:

“should ensure the development of specialist services and expertise not currently within the scope of five separate education and library boards”

and

“could enable more effective marketing of the service.”

276. In the final sentence of the same paragraph it is stated that a single library authority could:

“afford greater capacity to attract significant levels of external funding.”

277. I am keen to learn from where you might attract that external funding. Is it from independent business? Is it from other Departments? Why do you refer to the greater capacity to attract significant levels of external funding? If you can attract significant levels of external funding, we will be very keen to learn how you can do that, as, I am sure, will the Executive. However, I digress. I just want to get your opinion on the matter of external funding.

278. Mr Gray: I shall answer that question. It is not provable in advance, but a single library authority, with a higher profile and a high level of focused leadership, is more likely to achieve major strategic partnerships with other bodies that can, essentially, bring funding to the table. Those could include anything from public-private partnerships to such bodies as the Heritage Lottery Fund, the Big Lottery Fund, or other service providers. I suspect that smaller services have less strategic capacity to engage in that type of work.

279. Mr Shannon: You mentioned partnerships, as did one of the previous deputations. Partnerships are all very well, but have initial discussions taken place with any potential partners? I am keeping a note — I realise that you said that it is not provable.

280. Mr Gray: The question that you ask is a more of a commentary on the difficulties of the current environment than the possibilities of a single library authority.

281. LISC (NI) is one example of the possibilities that exist for co-operation on a Province-wide basis, in that the five education and library boards, which provide library services, and all the other library-interested parties in Northern Ireland co-operate in partnership on a range of beneficial projects. Those projects have been taken forward at a little extra public cost, but they deliver more than the sum of the parts of the organisations concerned.

282. The Chairperson: In your submission, you state that the number of board members in the library authority — a maximum of 14 — may not be sufficient to deal with the workload or be able to reflect the broad range of library users. Would you elaborate on that?

283. Mr Gray: LISC (NI) is aware of the need for caution to avoid unwieldy bodies, but is also concerned that library services are spread widely across Northern Ireland and that the board will have to have specific strategic expertise available in a range of fields. The board will also have to provide for adequate representation of age and gender spectrums and issues such as the rural/urban divide. That tends to suggest that a board comprising 14 or 15 members may be a bit tight. One option would be to consider the possibility of giving the board the provision to appoint an advisory council. There is no provision in the legislation for that, but it might help. Our thinking, without being dogmatic about the matter, is that the board should have more than 14 or 15 members.

284. Mr Porter: LISC (NI) is particularly concerned that, during the first years of the new library authority, when a lot of strategic work will have to be done, a board comprising 14 members may not be sufficient to provide the required expertise. Currently, between 50 and 60 people are involved in the library committees of the education and library boards, so having a board with 14 members would be a considerable reduction. As John Gray says, LISC (NI) is not suggesting a board of 30 or 40 people; we are asking for a modest reconsideration to ensure that the balance is correct.

285. Mr K Robinson: In a corporate and individual sense, local government has been excluded from this process, presumably due to the fear that councillors may burn or eat books. Given that councillors can accurately reflect the feeling of communities, is there a place for a local government presence on an extended board? If larger local authorities are created, the role of councillors will become more apparent.

286. Mr Gray: The difficulty is that the number of local authorities under the review of public administration is unclear. If I am right, there will be a minimum of eight councils, but there are likely to be more. If that is so, it will not be possible for every local authority to be represented on the new library authority; there will have to be another mechanism. Local government representation may have to be organised through the Northern Ireland Local Government Association. However, adoption of the idea for an advisory council would provide scope for more local input.

287. Mr D Bradley: Could, and should, the Northern Ireland library authority deliver schools’ library services?

288. Mr Porter: There is no doubt that, given how the schools’ library service is delivered, a partnership arrangement — at the very least — with the public library service is required. However, should the public library service, rather than the education and skills authority, deliver the schools’ library service? It would be difficult for school libraries to realise their full potential were they not part of the educational framework.

289. The Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland) has done a great deal of work to try to improve school libraries’ efficiency. However, the standard of that efficiency varies, and depends on the level of support that a head teacher gives to his or her library. If school libraries were seen to be removed further from the education service, they would lack the necessary credibility to make progress. Therefore, it is probably best that school libraries remain within the ambit of the education service.

290. Mr McCarthy: Do you believe that clause 6 should include a specific form of words that would not permit the library authority to charge for services?

291. Mr Porter: Undoubtedly, it is essential that core services are protected in legislation to prevent that from happening in future.

292. The Chairperson: Kieran, you seek stronger wording in that clause.

293. Mr McCarthy: I have undoubtedly made that point this morning.

294. Mr Porter: Where possible, the tendency is to charge for services. The temptation in future will be that, if something can be charged for, at some stage that issue will be raised, and charges will be introduced. By definition, that is the way in which things work — if a charge can be levied, it eventually will be.

295. The Chairperson: I thank Kirby and John for coming along this morning, and for sharing their wisdom with the Committee.

20 September 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Ms Adrienne Adair Ms Joan Christie Mr Stanton Sloan		South Eastern Education and Library Board
Mr Barry Mulholland Ms Helen Osborn Mr Bill Reilly		Western Education and Library Board
Mr David Cargo Mrs Rosemary Frawley Mr David Jess		Belfast Education and Library Board
Mrs Marie Donnell Mr Wilbert Mayne Ms Kathleen Ryan		Southern Education and Library Board

296. The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McNarry): Good morning. On behalf of the Committee, I welcome the witnesses. You have been asked to provide a five-minute overview of your written submission. I am compelled to ask that you keep within those five minutes, after which Committee members will ask questions. For the record, I am also obliged to ask that you answer the questions succinctly; I am sure that you will do that. May we call you by your first names?

297. Ms Joan Christie (South Eastern Education and Library Board): Please do.

298. Deputy Chairman, thank you for the invitation to attend this Committee meeting. We are grateful for the opportunity. In our submission, we outlined the background of the role of the South Eastern Education and Library Board (SEELB) in the Library Service. We are on a tight timetable, so I will avoid repeating that information. I will outline the six points that were highlighted in that submission.

299. First, our view is that a single library authority will provide a unique opportunity for the Library Service in the future. If it cannot be under the remit of the education and skills authority, we are happy that it will be a single, free-standing organisation; we support that concept. That said, libraries have always had, and should continue to have, a close relationship with education; that is a vital partnership that we wish to continue.

300. Secondly, the SEELB highlights the community planning and partnerships that the Library Service already has, which it hopes will be developed and will grow as the new authority develops. The Library Service provides a local service to local communities. There are several other bodies, including the new education and library bodies, the health boards and various other organisations, with which the library service should be coterminous.

301. Thirdly, the board is conscious that, at present, the setting up of the new library authority is less than six months away. The establishment of the education and skills authority has been deferred until 2009. That throws up particular difficulties for the Library Service in some areas. The board is anxious that any changes must be carried out smoothly and that staff should be the focus of attention.

302. Fourthly, the board has outlined its view on the free library service in its submission, and welcomes the opportunity to do so again. We consider a free library service to be vital. Recently, someone wondered whether the chap who created libraries, if he were alive today, would have been able to set up free libraries. The board, however, already has them and considers it vital to keep them.

303. Fifthly, I have already mentioned the relationship with the schools’ library service, which is vital. At present, the schools’ library service comes under the umbrella of libraries. The board understands that that will change under the new library authority. However, maintaining that relationship and working together with the schools’ library service is vital.

304. Finally, I have kept the most important point until the end, which is funding. The board supports the concept of the new library authority; it wants to be involved in it. However, we put our hands up and say that it must be funded properly — it must not be set up on a shoestring. The board strongly urges that the resources that the new library authority needs must be made available.

305. If there are any questions, I am inclined to point towards the two experts on either side of me. I apologise for not introducing them properly. Stanton Sloan is the new chief executive of the South Eastern Education and Library Board. He was appointed during the past month. Adrienne Adair is the assistant chief librarian. Unfortunately, the chief librarian is on holiday and is unable to be here. I am one of the commissioners. The chairman is also on holiday and, therefore, sends his apologies to the Committee for being unable to attend.

306. The Deputy Chairperson: I congratulate Mr Sloan on his appointment. If my question is unfair, you do not have to answer it: your predecessor was seconded, so where does that leave the board? In my understanding, if someone is on secondment, it means that they can be returned to their previous post. However, you are now the chief executive.

307. Mr Stanton Sloan (South Eastern Education and Library Board): I am also appointed on that basis. However, with the support and agreement of the commissioners, I will continue to act as the chief executive. If circumstances change, they will be dealt with as and when they arise. At present, however, there have been no significant effects on the board. Matters are progressing as usual.

308. The Deputy Chairperson: OK. That is good to know. Thank you.

309. Mr McCarthy: I thank the board for its presentation. Ms Christie mentioned a free library service. The Committee agrees with her on the need for that. Is the board content, therefore, that the wording of clause 6 of the Libraries Bill is strong enough to guarantee the continuation of a free library service?

310. Ms Christie: In our submission, we suggested that stronger wording is necessary. I will ask Adrienne to deal with that.

311. Ms Adrienne Adair (South Eastern Education and Library Board): The board would prefer that the wording of the legislation were much stronger in order to clarify that there will be a free library service at the point of use. There is concern that if budgets were to be reduced in the future, charges could be applied. The South Eastern Education and Library Board is keen to ensure that minimum charges are applied.

312. Mr McCarthy: That is fine; thank you.

313. Mr Shannon: You are very welcome, and congratulations, Stanton, on your new post.

314. In your submission to the Committee, you expressed some concern about the savings predicted for 2009-10 and through to 2011. You said that savings were unlikely to come from reducing management costs alone. First, what brought you to that point of view? Secondly, where do you think savings can be made?

315. Mr Sloan: Perhaps I could turn that question around somewhat. The South Eastern Education and Library Board supports a single library authority, but is concerned that it is properly funded.

316. We have some specific concerns. For example, there will not be five chief librarians, so there will be redundancy costs. Recent reports from Deloitte examined estates management, human resources, IT and finance systems. Mr Shannon’s question is on the mark and would be better directed to the new authority. The SEELB would like to be convinced, and we simply want to know how all those factors have been taken into account, and we are asking the Department to ensure that, when the authority is set up, it delivers a high-quality service and is adequately funded. We want to be assured that all those factors have been taken into consideration.

317. Mr Shannon: You are not convinced about how savings can be made. Do you feel that any savings can be made?

318. Mr Sloan: The SEELB’s experience of other amalgamations, albeit of schools, is that the first and second years require investment to achieve savings in the longer term. Therefore, we suggest that there may need to be considerable investment in the first two years to ensure savings later on. We want to be assured — as will the Committee — that sufficient funds will be available for that investment.

319. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you, Jim. That was an important question and response.

320. Mr K Robinson: My question about your submission is similar to Jim Shannon’s. You have asked the Department to clarify how the start-up costs and the estimated efficiencies have been calculated. What are your underlying concerns about that, and do you think that the Department has underestimated or overestimated the costs and savings?

321. Mr Sloan: That follows on from Mr Shannon’s question. I received and read the Deloitte reports only in the last few days. On the basis of those, the library authority will have to address certain things. There is potential for savings. For example, the SEELB is close to Belfast and has a library at Cregagh, which is close to another library further down the Cregagh road.

322. To return to the point, the Department is underestimating the costs and overestimating the savings. We pointed that out in our submission. We are simply asking the Department, if it is going ahead with its plan, to give us the details, so that we can be assured that the service is properly funded. That is our simple intention: to ensure that there is proper funding and that the level of funding is clear and transparent.

323. Mr K Robinson: You think that the Department has overestimated one sector and underestimated the other?

324. Mr Sloan: The initial estimate of savings is probably too high, and the start-up costs may be underestimated. However, we are simply asking the questions. The answers must come from a more detailed response from the Department.

325. Mr P Ramsey: There are several areas of concern, which your presentation clearly highlighted. What is your current budget for library provision in the SEELB? Can you tell us what the costs for staffing are and what revenue there is?

326. I have raised literacy and numeracy problems in Northern Ireland, because one-in-four people have such difficulties. The Department of Education provides money for numeracy and literacy education and for early-years programmes. Will that money be lost, or do you see the early-years programmes and help for those less skilled in numeracy and literacy continuing?

327. Ms Adair: Our budget this year is £5•235 million, and approximately 68% of that goes towards the staff costs that are required to run our library services — we have 24 static libraries. We work closely with Bookstart and Sure Start to deliver books and services to young children. Professional librarians work across groups of libraries to deliver those programmes. Those librarians devise content, and our staff on the ground deliver programmes to improve literacy, numeracy and computer literacy. As Mr Sloan has said, the SEELB does not know what the budget and structures of the new service will be, so the board does not know whether it will deliver those programmes in the future. However, the board currently delivers those programmes.

328. Mr P Ramsey: Are there indications from the Department of Education that the process will lead to links between the Department and the library authority?

329. Ms Adair: We hope that formal structures will be set up so that we can link closely with education, as the education and library boards do currently. We also run the schools’ library service, which runs programmes for literacy, reading and reading exploitation. However, we need formal structures.

330. Mr P Ramsey: That point should be noted for future reference.

331. The Deputy Chairperson: That is a good point. You said that you do not know what the budget for the library authority will be.

332. Ms Adair: We know that the budget will be £30 million for the entire Northern Ireland library authority, but we do not know what the structures will be or how the new service will be delivered.

333. The Deputy Chairperson: You do not know what the carve-up will be — that is important.

334. Mr D Bradley: My question concerns the link between the education and skills authority, and the library authority. I notice from the Department of Education’s policy papers on the review of public administration (RPA) that it envisages a service-level agreement between the library authority and the education and skills authority. What do you see that agreement encompassing?

335. Mr Sloan: That relates to Mr Ramsey’s question. Libraries play a significant part, as do youth services, in the areas of literacy and numeracy. New literacy and numeracy strategies will shortly be launched, and there is every indication that the early-years programmes will continue. The schools’ library and education service will work closely on that; the SEELB has recently received an additional allocation from the Department, and it is working, through its education and library sides, to develop those initiatives. Support for those initiatives will be available through the schools’ library service, and that will be part of the education and skills authority.

336. Literacy problems do not only affect children up to the age of 16 or 19. Mr Ramsey mentioned adult literacy, and we need to ask bodies such as libraries and education associations, and the people who work in them, what we need to do in that area.

337. Any service-level agreement that the library authority will have will probably relate to areas where cover is needed — for example, estates management. Estates will transfer over to libraries, but libraries do not have an estates branch, so who will look after them? I have met Irene Knox, the chief executive designate of the library authority, and we have discussed the need for service-level agreements on areas such as that.

338. The Deputy Chairperson: I need to remind you that time is pressing on. I apologise to our guests that we have to push ahead, and although the Committee may hear the same points being made by the other boards, it is important that we hear from those boards.

339. I remind members that the Committee has asked the Department for a report on the start-up costs of the library authority, and the spread and make-up of those costs. Perhaps it is an indication of joined-up government, but that report is not expected until tomorrow. We will have to deal with that report at our next meeting.

340. Lord Browne: You referred to the fact that the education and library boards will now be in place until March 2009. The library authority is due to be in place by April 2008 — do you feel that there are any risks to the SEELB if it is not in place by then?

341. You said that you foresaw difficulties with the changeover, especially with your staffing. If the library authority is not established by April 2008, do you foresee that being a difficulty? Do you feel that a later start would help with the difficulties in synchronisation?

342. Ms Christie: It is difficult to see how the single library authority will be up and running by April 2008. We are less than six months away from that date, and there is a question over whether that deadline can be met.

343. On the other hand, my understanding is that the commitment has been made to having a single library authority, and one wonders if there will ever be a time when everything is absolutely ready. Therefore, should we not proceed with the target of April 2008, with all the potential problems involved, and deal with those as they occur?

344. The issue of staff morale concerns me deeply. It is already in difficulty and will continue to be so. Irene Knox, previously of the South Eastern Education and Library Board, and now the chief executive designate for the library authority, will be recruiting staff from RPA-affected bodies, which means that our staff will be recruited. The SEELB, while sorry to lose Irene, is happy with its new executive, Stanton Sloan, but the problem remains that other jobs are going to be filled by people from our board.

345. A key issue for us and our staff is that we do not know where the new library headquarters are going to be located, and that presents a real problem. The SEELB has quite a percentage of female staff with commitments, and they cannot necessarily move to, for example, Omagh. I am not saying that the headquarters are going to be in Omagh, or that there is anything wrong with that as a potential location, being a Castlederg native myself. However, the new headquarters could be in a place that renders it impossible for current staff to apply for jobs, and that presents an equality issue.

346. Mr McCausland: Would it make more sense if the library authority and the education and skills authority were established in sync, as regards the organisational aspect of the transition? Are there advantages in having the two in sync?

347. Mr Sloan: There are certainly advantages to that. To expand on what Ms Christie said, the problem is that the staff who work in education and library boards cannot be classified as either library staff or education staff, and they cannot be treated separately — they comprise one set of staff, and should be treated accordingly.

348. The board supports the establishment of the new bodies. There should be sufficient time to ensure that that is done properly, but it should not cause undue delay. We think that it is only when the organisations are up and running that we will see benefits. When single procedures are in place, the organisations may well start their work at different times, but I agree that the closer together those dates are, the better.

349. Mr Brolly: I see a weakness in clause 6 as regards library services being free at point of delivery, particularly as the SEELB is concerned about savings being overestimated and costs being underestimated. Is it possible — and this is a bit of a conspiracy theory — that the clause may be a loophole, and that any losses incurred could be supplemented by charging in some subtle way?

350. Mr Sloan: I do not believe that to be the case.

351. Mr Brolly: It is something that should be watched.

352. Mr Sloan: That may be prudent.

353. Mr Brolly: Do you have a view on how the new library authority should engage with other local structures apart from those in education — the local councils, for example?

354. Mr Sloan: Although there will be a central library authority, library services will be delivered locally. Therefore, we must take account of other subregional structures that may be set up, including what may transpire as a result of the establishment of the education and skills authority. We have to take account of what happens in the health sector, and members will have already heard about provisions for literacy and numeracy, early years, and the Sure Start initiatives that are in place. I am not a politician, but I would say that, as far as joined-up government is concerned, it will be important to consider subregional structures throughout Northern Ireland and ensure that they are co-ordinated and include a wide range of services.

355. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. Contrary to public perception, politicians do listen to good advice.

356. Mr Sloan: It was not my suggestion that they do not listen.

357. The Deputy Chairperson: I know. I merely wanted to make the point.

358. Mr Sloan: I apologise if the Committee took that inference from my remarks.

359. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. Your presentation and timeous replies set a good standard for the witnesses who will follow. If you feel that you have missed anything, or wish to add something, please contact our officials, because this is a major issue. The Committee welcomes such information — we are only too aware of time constraints.

360. I welcome Ms Helen Osborn, Mr Bill Reilly and Mr Barry Mulholland from the Western Education and Library Board (WELB). I understand that Rev Robert Herron is unable to attend today. You will have five minutes for your presentation, and the Committee would appreciate it if you would keep to that time. Members will ask succinct questions so that you can give succinct answers. I am sorry to press you for time. The previous presentation set the standard, so please do not let us down.

361. Mr Bill Reilly (Western Education and Library Board): I am chairperson of the library committee of the Western Education and Library Board (WELB). The board is the local authority that is charged with the provision of education, library and youth services in the west of the Province, covering 289,000 people. The public library service and the schools’ library service are integral parts of the board’s activities, and we are particularly proud of four areas of our activities in library service provision. First, we work in partnership with the statutory, community, voluntary and private sectors to improve customer services.

362. Secondly, we are proud of the way in which the public library service and the schools’ library service work closely together to address education priorities and initiatives. Current examples include the revised curriculum, extended schools, the One Book project and the Children’s Books Ireland festival.

363. Thirdly, we take pride in our early-years provision activities, which is particularly important now that the Department of Education is responsible for early-years education provision. The board has seven play and learn centres in its libraries; it supports 113 preschool groups; operates the Bookstart scheme, and holds weekly rhymetimes in most libraries for children under three. Finally, our local history collections are popular and deserve to be made more accessible to everyone.

364. I wish to briefly highlight seven points from our submission. First, core library services should be free at the point of delivery. Secondly, there should be a single transfer process for the establishment of the Northern Ireland library authority and the education and skills authority, and the subregional structure that will be developed for the library authority should mirror that being developed for the education and skills authority. Thirdly, there should be close working relationships between the education and skills authority, and the library authority. Fourthly, we are concerned about the proposed size of the board of the library authority; we are unsure whether it will be sufficient to provide the breadth of expertise required for what will be a considerable workload. Fifthly, we have serious reservations about the figures provided on projected financial savings and about the limited budget for start-up costs. Sixthly, the cost of support services, which is currently provided for in WELB’s budget, also concerns us.

365. Finally, the current funding allocation to each board for public libraries is based on a formula that relates to population and takes account of social need and rurality. That provides a level of transparency and equality, and we would like an assurance that it will be maintained, when the Northern Ireland library authority is set up, so that the west will not be disadvantaged.

366. That is a synopsis of what our very hard-working staff in the Western Education and Library Board are doing, and we are very proud of them. We hope that when the library authority is established, services in the west will not be disadvantaged and that they will be at least as good if not better.

367. The Deputy Chairperson: I apologise to members for not giving them an opportunity to let me know if they want to ask questions. I will sort that out before the next session. I have a note that Mr McCarthy wants to ask the first question, then Mr Shannon and Mr K Robinson. Would those who have not signalled to me please follow on from the next three questions?

368. Mr McCarthy: You have said that you would like the wording in clause 6 to be strengthened. What do you see as the potential problems if the words “free service” are not included in the Bill?

369. Ms Helen Osborn (Western Education and Library Board): Our belief is that without an explicit commitment in the Bill to provide core services free at the point of delivery, there is a danger that charges will be levied to address budget shortfalls, which would clearly undermine the purpose and ethos of the public library service.

370. Mr Shannon: In your written submission, you referred to what will probably be the biggest single UK library authority. You also said, and I quote:

371. “the level of savings referred to in the financial memorandum is a matter of grave concern.”

372. Your concerns are very clearly to do with savings that may, or may not, happen. The Committee has received indications that some of the savings could be achieved from reducing management costs. Do you agree? I suspect that you do not, going by your submission. Do you feel that any savings can be made?

373. Mr Reilly: Ms Osborn is probably the best person to answer that as she has had experience in the Welsh and English library services.

374. Ms Osborn: We do not know how the figures for savings were arrived at as we have not seen the calculations. There will be some scope for streamlining management structures, etc. However, in the Western Board, only 6•6% of our budget, some £200,000, is spent on senior management and their administrative support staff. It is difficult to see how the level of savings indicated in the explanatory and financial memorandum could be achieved with that level of expenditure.

375. As regards specialist staff and being the biggest library authority in the UK, and possibly in Europe, an authority of that size needs certain specialist staff in order to have a vibrant, dynamic, community focus and be at the forefront of library developments.

376. Mr Reilly mentioned local history. The new library authority will need to be at the forefront of digitization in order to make material accessible. It will also need to have expertise in other areas, for example, an external funding officer. The service currently benefits from having external funding officers within each board area. The new authority will have to have those types of specialists if it is to be effective and efficient.

377. Mr Shannon: Do you feel that savings can be made in the long term?

378. Ms Osborn: There will be significant initial costs in setting up the library authority, and substantial funds will be required to finance redundancies. Thereafter, there may be some potential for savings, but without seeing the calculations and knowing the proposed structure and how support services will be delivered, it is difficult to say what those savings will be.

379. Mr K Robinson: My colleague has fully explored the financial aspects, so I will move on. Mr Reilly, you expressed concern that the proposed library authority board will be too small to provide the necessary expertise, and that it should reflect the geographical spread of Northern Ireland. How many board members would be required to cover committees, subcommittees, and so forth? How should the geographical spread be reflected in the board?

380. Mr Reilly: The board should comprise between 20 and 25 members. The current education and library boards each have 35 members, but that could probably be pruned back a little. One way to solve the geographical question would be to hold all meetings at the board’s headquarters in Omagh — where I live. That would be very convenient. [Laughter.]

381. I have probably annoyed everyone else in the Province now.

382. We must ensure that the composition of the board represents a good geographical spread and expertise in various fields such as financial control, staffing and local councils, as well as those who have an interest in the running of libraries. One must remember that all members will not be able to attend all meetings, and if the board comprises as few as 12 members, we will run the risk of meetings being inquorate. Furthermore, the committees and subcommittees will be almost be incestuous if there are only 12 board members, because the same people will be appearing all the time. A board comprising 12 members will not be sufficient to achieve a spread of expertise and allow for members to miss meetings for such reasons as holidays and sickness. Mr Mulholland has experience of running a board.

383. Mr Barry Mulholland (Western Education and Library Board): I agree with Mr Reilly. Our board enjoys a good level of public-representative membership — 40% of the board comes from local government.

384. Mr K Robinson: You have anticipated my next question. I was going to ask whether the involvement of public representatives in a board is the solution to the incestuous relationship that was referred to.

385. Mr Mulholland: It is an advantage in our board because it ensures a level of public accountability and that communities in the five district council areas coterminous with our board area — Limavady, Derry city, Strabane, Omagh and Fermanagh — are well represented.

386. Mr K Robinson: I am glad that you said that. Several of us had concerns about that.

387. Mr Reilly: Expertise is also important — that does not mean that we do not get that from local representatives — and there is a double whammy in that respect. If we proceed with a small committee, everyone must bring a degree of expertise with them. A bigger committee will mean that more people can be accommodated.

388. Mr P Ramsey: Paragraph 15 of your written submission refers to the overall costs for the single library authority. What are the overall costs of the Western Education and Library Board’s library provision, excluding staff costs and revenue?

389. Ms Osborn: The overall recurrent budgets of public libraries in the western board area is £4•3 million, of which £3•1 million is spent on staff, because — as members will appreciate — public library provision is a staff-intensive service. Staff must be present in the branches to provide front-line services.

390. Mr P Ramsey: I know that, but another import matter is that the establishment of a single library authority will mean that library services will not have the benefits of the regional support they currently enjoy. Therefore, I wonder about those costs being taken on board at some stage.

391. Paragraphs 9 and 10 of your written submission state that the schools’ library service and the public library service share buildings, resources and IT facilities, and provide a holistic approach to the education of children.

392. How will that work? Will you be able to ensure that you continue to provide the same excellent service to both youngsters and adults?

393. Mr Mulholland: The questions are excellent, and similar enquiries have exercised our board members. A single library authority for the whole of Northern Ireland was not the Western Education and Library Board’s preferred option, and our board colleagues share that view. Given that schools’ library services are very much integrated, we believe that library services should remain an integral part of education. For that reason, and for those already outlined, library services have a critical role to play in all levels of learning.

394. The difficulties that the new library authority will experience are clear. The Western Education and Library Board operates what is almost a shared-service facility in which human resources, finance, procurement, property services, and management of assets for library, youth and educational facilities are run centrally. Therefore, the budget will have to be disaggregated to ensure that the new library authority has the proper baseline funds to cover all those areas. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure is carrying out that exercise.

395. The change will present a challenge. The new education and skills authority’s chief executive designate and the chief executive designate of the library authority will have to work together extremely closely.

396. Mr Reilly: The schools’ library service is critical, particularly for primary schools, as it provides valued support to teachers in those schools. It is becoming more obvious that getting children as young as three years old accustomed to going to libraries, reading books, and enjoying reading is important to their later educational development. Therefore we must ensure that the schools’ library service does not suffer and result in an inferior service to people who are too young to complain for themselves.

397. The Deputy Chairperson: I am conscious of time, and I do not want to curtail either the later questioners or the relevant answers.

398. Mr McCausland: Would there be merit in having the new library authority and the education and skills authority established at the same time, so that the two processes could run in sync? What would be the practical implications if that were not to happen?

399. Mr Mulholland: It is crucial that the processes that will bring about the transition from the education and library boards to the education and skills authority and the library authority are aligned. That would reduce the duplication of effort needed. More importantly, it is crucial that we continue to deliver high-quality services to the public. It will not be an effective or efficient use of staff time for us to have to break away from delivering those services in order to consider the human resource, transfer, property and financial services of the two services — in the first instance for an early set up of the library authority, and then again for the slightly later establishment of the education and skills authority. That will create many difficulties. However, if the processes were aligned to ensure that we work effectively once they are complete, the education and library service could be established in April 2009 and the library service could be established in January 2009. The starting dates could be agreed if the processes could be aligned.

400. Mr Brolly: Until the new library authority is established, the Western Education and Library Board will be in charge of the provision of all things associated with libraries. Does that include proposals for new build? I am concerned that the proposed new library for Dungiven might be handed over and would have to wait until the library authority is in place.

401. Mr Mulholland: The Western Education and Library Board will continue with its plans for the development of new libraries and the refurbishment of old libraries until such times as the new library authority is created. However, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure will be aware of what we are doing, and approve of our work, as it always has.

402. Mr Brolly: When do you think that Dungiven library might be ready?

403. Ms Osborn: I will answer that. We understand that planning permission has been granted; however the board has not yet been officially notified. Assuming the traditional route for building, it will take approximately 12 months thereafter.

404. Lord Browne: Further to Mr McCausland’s questions, what risks do you anticipate, particularly concerning staffing, if the library authority is not established by April 2008?

405. Mr Mulholland: I do not envisage any difficulty if there is a delay — far from it: a delay will allow more time to ensure that the transfer is as seamless as possible. Morale issues, which have been referred to, will be greater if people believe that a difficult timescale for establishing the new authority is being forced on them for the sake of hitting a particular date. People would prefer that it were done properly.

406. Mr D Bradley: The Department of Education’s policy papers on the review of public administration stated that there would be a service-level agreement between the library authority and education and skills authority. What should be encompassed by such an agreement?

407. Mr Mulholland: That is a question for the chief executives designate of the new authorities. We consider it crucial that the Library Service continues to work closely with the Department of Education concerning school libraries.

408. There are opportunities for service-level agreements in areas such as, human resources, finance, property services, asset management etc. However, any arrangement would have to be a consequence of agreement between the chief executives designate of the new organisations.

409. Mr D Bradley: Do you think that that might be a means to achieve savings for both bodies?

410. Mr Mulholland: It would be an efficient use of resources.

411. The Deputy Chairperson: How is your staff coping with the goings-on?

412. Mr Reilly: The board is worried about staff insecurity. Education board employees, more so than those in the Library Service, are looking for jobs in other areas. The problem with library staff is that they are highly specialised.

413. The Deputy Chairperson: Please stick to discussing library staff.

414. Mr Reilly: We are not losing as many library staff. Where else could they get a job?

415. Ms Osborn: Library staff have many skills and are employable in several sectors. Staff morale is fairly high; however, certainty about a date is needed. The possibility of an alteration to the timescale would be welcomed by most staff members, some of whom have many years’ service. For someone who has worked for the board for 20 or 30 years, it would be difficult if the board were to continue without libraries being a part of it. However, those staff members would appreciate knowing with certainty whether changes are to take place in January 2009 or April 2009 or whenever.

416. The Deputy Chairperson: If you have the opportunity, please pass on the Committee’s regards to your staff for the future, and assure them that their good intentions are behind our deliberations.

417. I apologise for the speed of these sessions; however, more comes from them than you think. Thank you for your presentation and for answering our questions. Please contact our officials to advise them of any additional matters that might come to mind after today. Thank you and safe home.

418. Good morning to the delegation from the Belfast Education and Library Board (BELB), and thank you for coming to address the Committee. The standard so far has been excellent, and I am sure that you will not let us down.

419. I remind you that there is a limit of five minutes for your presentation; Committee members have been instructed to make their questions succinct, and I ask that you be as succinct as possible in your responses. I apologise that this is not a calming exercise, but — given the time restraint — that is the way that things have to be done. We will force the time and the issues with you.

420. Mrs Rosemary Frawley (Belfast Education and Library Board): I thank the Committee for giving us the opportunity to speak at this meeting. My colleagues are David Cargo, chief executive of BELB, and David Jess, assistant chief librarian for Belfast public libraries. I am a member of BELB and vice-chairperson of the library committee. I also have a long association with the public library service; I worked there for 36 years, spending the latter years as a member of the electronic libraries project team.

421. As the Committee has our written submission, I will not go through it now. I will simply highlight several issues that members may wish to explore further.

422. Belfast’s public library service operates in what has been, effectively, a divided city for the past 30 years with a large urban population. That has had, and continues to have, serious resource implications for effective service delivery. Furthermore, some 70% of the community libraries are located in areas of high social deprivation. At a time when outreach activities are extremely important to address the challenge of improving literacy, numeracy, employability and economic prosperity, those libraries are severely constrained by staff and resource shortages.

423. Belfast’s public library service is unique in the Northern Ireland Library Service. It operates a large central library and reference facility whose role is to conserve, preserve and exploit historical and contemporary resources for in-depth study and research. Many of the collections are of national and international importance, and we are concerned that the legislation does not adequately reflect the custodial role of the new library authority. Developing those collections and employing specialist staff means that it costs the Belfast Education and Library Board much more than other boards to maintain that resource. Perhaps the Committee will consider the case for separate, ring-fenced funding for a provincial reference library service to include the extremely valuable collections that are located throughout the other board areas in Northern Ireland, which have a major role to play in the cultural capital of the Province.

424. We emphasise the fact that a quality library service is the overriding priority and that a few fundamental factors are imperative to its delivery. It should be free at the point of service, and there should be coterminosity with other service providers to facilitate community planning and productive partnership working. The strong links with education should remain, so that we provide a seamless service to children and young people in the city. There should be a single transfer system for education and library board employees.

425. Finally, we have concerns about the affordability of the new library authority.

426. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for your clear presentation.

427. Lord Browne: In your written submission, you stated that the draft Libraries Bill should not proceed until the results of the review of public administration are known. Why have you taken that position? In your original response to the consultation on the draft Libraries Bill, you did not oppose the creation of a single library authority. Is that still your position, or has it changed? Should libraries, perhaps, become part of local government?

428. Mr David Cargo (Belfast Education and Library Board): I will deal with your questions in the context of our submission. When it was first mooted that a reform of public administration was needed, the board had two distinct views on the future of libraries. Our preferred option was to view libraries in the context of lifelong learning. Therefore, we felt that there should be a close relationship, in any regional body, between education, youth and the Library Service, because we have all spent the past 30 years trying to embed and conjoin those services in that context.

429. Should that not be possible, the board’s view was that the Library Service needed to maintain close links with its users, so our second preference was for libraries to move towards council control, because that would ensure a close relationship between libraries and the public.

430. There are two issues at the core of the debate. Rationalisation can bring structural efficiencies: one of something is probably better than five of something.

431. However, the downside of that is that the effectiveness of services can also suffer. The Library Service is dependent upon the close proximity of the library to its community and to its users. We are all struggling with a tension: where, on the continuum, does the crossover between structural efficiency and customer effectiveness meet?

432. Therefore, we are not opposed to a single body. Our preference is for a single body with democratic input, which is close to its users so that there would be a strong subregional structure that would ensure effective community use.

433. The Deputy Chairperson: That is pretty clear. I think that everyone is happy with that response.

434. Mr D Bradley: In its submission, the BELB stated that the Bill does not adequately address the potential for libraries to be community hubs. Could you outline for the Committee how the Bill should address that?

435. Mrs Frawley: I cannot identify that statement in our submission. However, our view is that libraries, as community hubs, constitute a vital part of the future development and prosperity of library services. We view partnership working as critical to successful strategic and resource planning.

436. We are already involved in that process — for example, in the Grove project, which is the result of a partnership among the Library Service, Belfast City Council leisure services, and Belfast Health and Social Care Trust. I will not go into the details of that project, but I assure the Committee that we have a lot of documentation and reports on it that we would be happy to submit. We will send the Committee any information on any of our services that members require.

437. Mr D Bradley: Do you think that the role of libraries needs to be more clearly spelt out in the Bill?

438. Mrs Frawley: We feel that the generic description of services should be strengthened. Inclusion of the word “comprehensive” would help, because, without some recognition of the breadth and depth of services, there is danger of dumbing down all services.

439. We also feel strongly that the research and study role of the Belfast reference libraries and their unique collections, as well as the specialist collections held in other boards, should be part of the role and responsibility of the new library authority. They are a part of our cultural capital and their continued development is important, not just for the libraries themselves but for the Province as a whole.

440. Mr D Bradley: Do you think that the Bill should go as far as to specify exactly what libraries should be used for?

441. Mrs Frawley: We do not think it necessary for the Bill to identify every role and activity. We are more concerned that the legislation might proscribe the libraries from doing certain things. We would not want to be limited in expanding current services, in introducing innovative new services or in any options along those lines.

442. Mr K Robinson: I thank the board for the presentation. Mrs Frawley has highlighted an important factor, namely the archives held by the library boards. I know from bitter experience what can happen. A member of a library board, on his way to shred an archive, just happened to know that I had an interest in that particular area, and I was able to save that archive. Is that a danger? With reorganisation, do we need to list and protect those archives before they are transferred? That is a point that the Committee needs to highlight.

443. Now, I will ask my question, which is a simple one.

444. The Deputy Chairperson: Hear, hear.

445. Mr K Robinson: What, if any, are the specific risks to your organisation if the new library authority is not established on 1 April 2008?

446. Mr Cargo: Such matters are never risk free; however, our service currently operates through the Belfast Education and Library Board. If the new library authority is not established on that date, the service will continue to run. The risk to the service is minimal, because the board will continue to provide that service.

447. Mr K Robinson: You have a plan B in place.

448. The Deputy Chairperson: Perhaps the officials will take note of Ken’s point about archives, and the Committee could return to that. It is a valid point.

449. Mr P Ramsey: Rosemary, you and your team are most welcome.

450. I have read your formal submission; you obviously take great pride in the outreach work that you do in library provision. However, you are very straight in challenging Government on monetary value, set-up costs, and so forth.

451. Are you happy with the proposals? The Belfast Education and Library Board is concerned that the costs for a stand-alone service have not been identified. We share that concern. The board’s submission states that:

452. “Projected budgetary forecasts indicate that overall funding for libraries looks set to decrease.”

453. It also points out that access to library services in rural areas may be reduced, which is a fundamental concern for the Committee.

454. The Deputy Chairperson: What about a question now, Pat?

455. Mr P Ramsey: I am leading up to it.

456. There is clear criticism of the proposed single library authority. Can you provide us with any information or evidence other than that which you have already provided? We do not have any costs for start-up, only projected costs. I asked the previous witnesses about the attempts to reduce literacy problems in Northern Ireland — one-in-four adults has such problems. How can you ensure that the collaborations among library services, the Department of Education, and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure continue to adopt a holistic approach to children’s and adults’ education?

457. Mr David Jess (Belfast Education and Library Board): The question of cost is a vexed one. The start-up costs for this year will probably cover what is required in this financial year, and that is fine. However, we are concerned that there are no figures for start-up costs for next year and the succeeding years. We assume that, for the first two or three years, there will be further significant start-up costs.

458. There will also be a figure for the infrastructure costs for those parts of the service that are currently provided by the boards. Figures that we have just received from consultants estimate that those costs will be around £900,000. Those costs will have to be factored in, and additional funds will have to be found from within the libraries’ budget. We have not yet had time to fully analyse those figures.

459. Turning to the savings that are required; referring to our experience in Belfast, the library budget in 2003 was £6 million. This year, that was reduced to £5•2 million, and next year it goes down to £4•7 million. In order to live within budget, we have, in the last three years, shed, or not replaced approximately 30 staff, which makes it has become very difficult to maintain current levels of service, and we are now at risk of ad-hoc closures.

460. Another problem to note is that when staff numbers are reduced, it becomes much more difficult to carry out the important one-to-one library activities, such as those involving, for example, literacy and special needs. Some of those activities produce low statistics, but they are labour-intensive. Therefore, having fewer staff means that there is less capacity to do the jobs that involve one-to-one services.

461. The explanatory and financial memorandum suggests that there will be nearly £2 million in savings — £600,000 in 2009-10, and £1•2 million in 2010-11. From a budget of £30 million, that is quite a considerable saving, and we cannot envisage where that level of saving will come from. From the current Belfast example, with reduced staff numbers, we will still face a potential £700,000 shortfall next year. As costs increase, reducing staff numbers may not produce sufficient savings. We are concerned about where those savings will come from, and we believe that they cannot be achieved without the wholesale closure of libraries and the consequent paying-off of staff. Closing buildings saves a little, but the big savings are in reducing staff numbers. We are very concerned that that is how the savings may have to be achieved.

462. Mr P Ramsey: David, you said that the overall Belfast library budget for this year was £5•2 million. How much of that is for staff costs?

463. Mr Jess: Approximately 70%.

464. Mr K Robinson: We have come to a key point. Staff numbers have been reduced, including face-to-face staff. Is the suggestion that front-line staff will be sacrificed in the new system, as opposed to middle or senior management, as was suggested?

465. Mr Jess: The redundancies have been of senior staff, by and large. Front-line staff have gone mainly through natural wastage, if I can use that term. We have also moved a lot of staff around to try to keep service points running.

466. We have also transferred a number of staff from what were traditionally back-room jobs to the front line. Staffing has reached a critical level whereby everyone is manning the fort.

467. Mr Cargo: We have already been part of an efficiency programme, as have all boards, in the past few years. Any back-room staff are now front-office staff. If more staff are lost, there will be library closures.

468. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you for that. That provides a clear picture.

469. Mr McCausland: Do you think that the new library authority and the education and skills authority should be established in sync? Would there be any disadvantages, with respect to staff and buildings, if that did not happen?

470. Mr Cargo: There is a danger that one becomes fixated by dates. Dates are useful for targets that everyone can work towards. An important point, both for this Committee and the Committee for Education, is that, if there is going to be change — and none of us is opposed to change — it should be done right, rather than by a certain date.

471. Another point to consider is that the board does not have education staff, youth staff and library staff. Rather, it has Belfast Education and Library Board staff. If those staff go to different organisations, there should be a single scheme of transfer. There should not be a scheme of transfer for libraries staff, one for youth staff, and another for school staff. Therefore, there is a major piece of work that must be done in respect of the reorganisation and redeployment of those staff in the new organisation. That needs to happen in a co-ordinated, planned way — to use your phrase, Nelson, in sync.

472. I would find it extremely difficult, as chief executive, to manage or hive off a group of staff on one set of terms and conditions, and another group of staff on slightly different terms and conditions. There are also practical issues involved in moving to new organisations, such as signage, rebadging of vehicles and uniforms, and the like. We want a one-off exercise.

473. Lastly, I do not want to get to a situation in which I am going around with little bits of paper that state that we are now the Belfast education board, rather than the library board. The work needs to be done properly, in a co-ordinated fashion, and at one time, on whatever date that may be.

474. Mr Brolly: Fundamentally, my understanding of your submission is that you are worried that the new library authority will provide something which is very clinical, almost like a banking service. You have mentioned the services that your organisation has provided as an education and library board, in particular the disabled, and your association with schools. All of those services are very local and produce a sense of warmth, so to speak, from the Library Service. Do you have a view as to how the new library authority can engage with all those local structures, including the local council, to make sure that that engagement is not lost?

475. Mrs Frawley: The most effective way to engage with the local population is through local people and/or their local representatives. As a member of the board and the library committee, I have seen that working in practice — it has facilitated many joint exercises between education and libraries, and between libraries and the city council. My view is that there should be more public representation on the new library authority.

476. Mr D Bradley: Excuse me, Mr Deputy Chairman. I need to leave the room for a few minutes. Please excuse me.

477. The Deputy Chairman: Are you coming back?

478. Mr D Bradley: I will be back.

479. The Deputy Chairman: I have heard that before. [Laughter.]

480. Witnesses, thank you for your presentation. You kept the standard up. I am not going to say whether it was better or worse than the previous witnesses. Take with you the best regards of the Committee to your staff.

481. There may be another meeting in the near future, and, if so, our officials will bring it to your attention. Please keep in contact, as this matter is ongoing. We are under pressure and time, as you have acknowledged.

482. I wish you all the best, and perhaps we will see you again. Thank you very much.

483. Mrs Frawley: Before we go, I would like invite the Committee to view the collections in Belfast Central Library.

484. Mr P Ramsey: That would not be a bad idea.

485. The Deputy Chairperson: Is lunch any better there than it is elsewhere?

486. Mr K Robinson: Are you still operating an amnesty? I might have an overdue book tucked away somewhere.

487. Mr Cargo: We will have an amnesty arranged for you.

488. The Deputy Chairperson: The next set of witnesses is from the Southern Education and Library Board (SELB). You are very welcome. We are formally informal here, so if I may, I will address you as Marie, Kathleen and Wilbert; I hope that you are not offended. I am Mr McNarry. [Laughter.]

489. I know that you have been apprised that you should make a five-minute presentation. Up to now, the presentations have been bang on time, and I apologise for pushing you on that, but time is tight for all the matters on which the Committee is working. Nevertheless, I am sure that that will not detract from what you have to say to us. Please proceed, and we will be ready with our questions.

490. Ms Kathleen Ryan (Southern Education and Library Board): I shall begin by making the introductions. Marie Donnell has been chairperson of the Southern Education and Library Board since 2006 and has been a library interest member of the board since 2001. She is a retired head teacher and has worked in schools in England and Northern Ireland. Mr Wilbert Mayne has been vice-chairperson of the libraries committee since 2005. He is currently a library interest member of the board, and he has been a board and library committee member since 1999. I am Kathleen Ryan. I have been chief librarian of the Southern Education and Library Board for the past five years. Prior to that, since I left school I have worked in public libraries in England.

491. Mr Wilbert Mayne (Southern Education and Library Board): Good morning. With your permission, I will give a short description of the location that is serviced by the SELB library service. In giving our responses to the Committee and to the consultation on the new library authority that will replace the five boards, we emphasise that our concerns are based on our widespread knowledge and experience of the SELB area and its needs.

492. The current population of the SELB area is approximately 364,000. The board area stretches from Ballyronan on the western shores of Lough Neagh, near Cookstown — the most northerly point — to Newry and Kilkeel in the south, and as far west as Fivemiletown. It encompasses all County Armagh and parts of County Down and County Tyrone. The area has a mixture of isolated rural communities and large urban areas such as Banbridge, Dungannon, Lurgan and Portadown.

493. A wide spectrum of economic circumstances is represented in the board area. That includes deprived wards in the council areas of Cookstown, Craigavon and Newry — in which average earnings are below the Northern Ireland mean — and a small number of affluent areas.

494. For many years, we have had the largest population of migrant workers and their families in Northern Ireland, particularly in the Southern Education and Library Board council areas of Dungannon and Cookstown. Many migrant workers make heavy use of the library services; for example, they use the computer facilities to keep in regular contact with their families, perhaps in eastern European countries.

495. The concerns that we would like to discuss include proposals not to guarantee a free service to users, the geographical spread of members of the new library authority, and the proposed start-up costs.

496. Mr P Ramsey: You are very welcome. What are your specific concerns about the predicted savings mentioned in your submission? Do you believe that the holistic approach currently used by libraries for the provision of early-years literacy, outreach work and rural work can be achieved by a single library authority?

497. Ms Ryan: We have serious concerns about the savings that have been identified, because we are not sure how they have been identified, or whether account has been taken of the fact that savings are bound to lead to redundancy costs, as a large percentage of our budget comprises staffing costs. There can be savings in the long term; however, we are not sure that they can be made in the first two years, as proposed.

498. We hope that having a single library authority will enable the same quality of services across the board for early-years provision, outreach and rural services. Some boards have developed expertise in certain areas, and a single library authority will enable that expertise to be spread across the whole.

499. Mr P Ramsey: What is your current expenditure for the provision of staff and library services in the Southern Education and Library Board?

500. Ms Ryan: The total provision is between £5•2 and £5•5 million, depending on whether the figure is net or gross.

501. Mr Ramsey: What part of that is staff costs?

502. Ms Ryan: Staff costs represent around 80% of that figure.

503. Mr Mayne: That figure reflects the rurality of the area, the number of small libraries, and the staffing issues that that entails. A large number of large libraries would be more efficient to run than the rural system.

504. The Deputy Chairperson: We appreciate that, Mr Mayne. Thank you.

505. Mr Brolly: What is your opinion on how a new library authority could keep in touch with the local structures that are so essential to the ethos of the library service?

506. Mr Mayne: The make-up of the new authority must reflect all sections and areas of society. As I come from a rural area, I have an interest in ensuring that the new authority reflects rural issues. There must be a mechanism of selection built into the appointment of members that reflects the needs of rural areas, as well as the principles that we have already mentioned. Unlike the Belfast Education and Library Board, or other boards that are nearly all urban, we are very rural. Therefore, the needs of those west of the Bann must be represented by individuals who live and work there and who service those needs.

507. Mr Brolly: Do you think, therefore, that the maximum number of 14 for membership of the library authority board is much too small?

508. Mr Mayne: I do not think that it is too small, as long as the appointment process is carried out correctly, and the membership is a true reflection of everybody in the Province.

509. Mr Brolly: Are you concerned about the geographic spread?

510. Mr Mayne: Yes; that is our concern.

511. Lord Browne: In your submission, you state that you are extremely concerned that the Libraries Bill does not contain any provision for the strategic advice system for the new library board that is available in England, Scotland and Wales. How do you receive advice? Do you feel that we need to set up a body in Northern Ireland to provide you with advice? How would such a body be useful to you?

512. Ms Ryan: There is no form of strategic advice to public library services in Northern Ireland, as there is in the other three home countries.

513. We want to see a body in Northern Ireland similar to that which exists in the other three home countries; however, the cost would be prohibitive. One way around that might be to have a formal buy-in to one of the other bodies — a formal arrangement between the relevant Government Departments in two jurisdictions.

514. The biggest of the bodies is the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council in England, which carries out a huge amount of research on public libraries, on training schemes, and so on. It welcomes us, informally, to make use of its website and publications. However, when pieces of research are being commissioned, there are no samples from Northern Ireland. It recently conducted a big training scheme for senior library staff, but it was available only to its members. Owing to the scale of running such a scheme in Northern Ireland, if we did it alone, would be very costly.

515. Mr K Robinson: Thank you for your presentation. As a former employee of the Southern Education and Library Board — three decades ago — I know exactly the problems that you face, with the geography west of the Bann, and the provisions that have to be made for rural schools and rural communities. You have stressed that some mechanism needs to be found to make sure that there is a geographical spread, and a spread of expertise in the board. Will you elaborate on that? If you had the opportunity to do so, what sort of mechanism would you write into the Bill?

516. Ms Ryan: We have discussed that issue quite a lot. We want the new library authority to engage with local structures. We would like there to be local consultative forums that would have representation from the various education sectors — from pre-school through to higher education — health, adult education, the youth sector, the voluntary sector, the citizens advice bureaux, and so on. Those consultative bodies should exist in every council area.

517. Mr K Robinson: If such a mechanism existed, would you write into the legislation that a consultative body should be set up, and then allow the individual communities to respond to that?

518. Ms Ryan: Personally, I would not write that into the legislation, but I am not a legislative expert. However, if I were chief executive of the new body, that is what I would seek to do.

519. Mr K Robinson: That would be a strategic aim of yours?

520. Ms Ryan: Yes.

521. The Deputy Chairperson: Marie, I am not sure whether questions are falling into your area of specialty, but feel free to chip in. We have two questions left, and if they are not in your area of specialty, I will allow you 30 seconds at the end.

522. Mr Mayne: To answer Mr Robinson’s point, I have had experience of rural development issues and local strategic partnerships. Local strategic partnerships include a mechanism whereby the statutory bodies, the voluntary and community sector and the business sector work together. They have 50:50 representation of folk from the statutory sector, and from social partners, who know how to operate through local councils. Therefore, that might be an option of how to include the community and voluntary sector. Like Kathleen, I am not a legislative expert, but I know how those sectors can work when they are brought together. In my experience, when that happens, it works very well.

523. Mr K Robinson: The local strategic partnerships are a good model.

524. Mr D Bradley: Your submission states that you want to see the establishment of a public library advisory forum. What do you think should be the functions of that forum?

525. Ms Ryan: In the other parts of the UK, such forums advise the relevant Minister. In the Republic of Ireland, it does the same, and it is also a strategic advisory body and a grant-making body. The forums in Scotland and Wales have the same role.

526. We have talked further about that issue since we made our submission, and we feel that the local consultation bodies are even more important than the forums.

527. Mr McCausland: Do you envisage any advantages or disadvantages with two processes — the transfer to a single library authority, and the transfer to the education and skills authority — running in sync with each other, with respect to staffing issues, buildings, and so on?

528. Mrs Marie Donnell (Southern Education and Library Board): Our major concern is that parallel processes and equivalent schemes be put in place for both the Northern Ireland library authority and the education and skills authority. It is important that, whatever happens — whether it happens at the same time or at different times; whether the timescale is identical or not — the best outcome for both bodies is ensured.

529. Mr McCausland: Will there be any practical difficulties if the two do not run in sync with regard to transfer schemes, and so on?

530. Ms Ryan: The transfer scheme must be the same. I cannot envisage any practical difficulty whether the scheme applies to 10% of people now or 90% of people in six months’ time. However, the Committee may need legal advice on that.

531. I have concerns about the delay. It is already difficult to maintain staff morale. The board is having considerable difficulty in recruiting staff. It is also difficult to plan in a strategic, long-term manner. The longer that continues, the more difficult it will get. At present, it is difficult for the board to make strategic, long-term decisions on future planning, buildings and major changes in service delivery when it does not know whether it must plan for a discrete area or for the entirety. That is the risk of delay, which applies to both the education side and the library side.

532. Mr Mayne: Ms Ryan has mentioned staff morale. The current recruitment process must be trawled internally as the board is not permitted to recruit from outside. That has a knock-on effect on libraries —their opening hours, and so on. Recently, there have been cases in which libraries have had to close because of staffing problems. That reflects back to the general public, who cannot get access to library services, and the number of books that are in usage is reduced. It has a snowball effect throughout the service. That must be managed carefully.

533. The Deputy Chairperson: Welcome back, Mr McCarthy.

534. Mr McCarthy: Deputy Chairman, was clause 6 mentioned in my absence? The board has pointed out — and the Committee agrees — that clause 6 does not guarantee the statutory provision of a free library service. What wording would the board propose in order to guarantee that provision?

535. Mrs Donnell: The precise wording would need to be detailed on the advice of a parliamentary draftsman. However, the single greatest concern of the Southern Education and Library Board is that the legislation does not guarantee in statute the provision of a public library service that is free at the point of delivery. Making changes to a scheme of charges will require no input from the Assembly, only a decision by the board of the new body in consultation with the Department.

536. The board is concerned that, in the future, financial hard times could mean that changes are introduced. The board feels strongly that, in a democratic society, the legislative body should make provision to allow its citizens to have free access to books and information, and that decisions on any changes to that provision should be taken at Assembly level. The proposed legislation would make Northern Ireland the only area in the UK where citizens do not have a statutory right to free library services.

537. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for your time, attention, presentation, dedication and answers, which were excellent. I apologise again for the tight schedule. Please take with you the Committee’s best wishes to all your staff. We wish them well for the future. If there are any additional matters that arise or evolve from today’s meeting, feel free to contact the Committee staff, if you feel that that might be helpful. Safe home.

27 September 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mrs Anne Connolly Mr William McCartney Mr Gordon Topping		North Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Patricia McKeown Mr Jonathan Swallow		UNISON
Mr John Corey Ms Mary McVeigh Ms Alison Millar		Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance

538. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome the delegation from the North Eastern Education and Library Board — Mr Billy McCartney, Mrs Anne Connolly and Mr Gordon Topping.

539. Mr William McCartney (North Eastern Education and Library Board): I thank you for your invitation.

540. Mr Gordon Topping (North Eastern Education and Library Board): Thank you for inviting us. We are delighted to be able to present our views on the Libraries Bill. As an introduction, we will present four or five issues that will give an overview of our position.

541. The Library Service is primarily an education service, and its origins in the nineteenth century show that it was designed to be education for the masses and was an opportunity for second-chance education. The synergy between the Library Service and the education service is the key determinant. Therefore, during the consultation we expressed the view that the Library Service should be part of the education authority. We did not believe that there was a need to establish another quango. We believed that amalgamation could deliver enhanced economies of scale and that it would be more efficient and avoid some of the problems that we will face, such as the separation of the schools’ library service from the public library service.

542. That was our original view. However, direct rule Ministers decided that a regional library authority would be created, and once that decision had been made, we worked closely with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to bring about the Libraries Bill. We have been fully consulted, and I pay tribute to the Department’s officials for the way that they have worked with us on that.

543. There are four other issues to which we would like to draw to your attention and which are important in relation to the Bill. First, there is the implementation date. Until a few days ago, we had serious concerns about that, but I understand that the Assembly has given the Committee more time to consult and to conduct additional research and investigation into, and scrutiny of, the Bill. I believe that the extension is until the end February 2008, and if that is the case then I assume it will be difficult to meet the implementation date of 1 April 2008. Therefore, although we have issues about the deadline of 1 April, that may not be a problem in the near future.

544. Secondly, there are staffing issues. Obviously, this is a time of uncertainty for many Library Service staff, and the board wishes to reduce that uncertainty as far as possible. We must enhance staff morale, create certainty where there is uncertainty and ensure that library staff know what they will be doing and where their jobs will be located.

545. Thirdly, there is the issue of savings versus costs. I am sure that the Committee will want to follow that up. The board believes that an initial investment must be made to produce savings and that the scale of that investment may be significant.

546. Finally, we would like to draw the Committee’s attention to the size and composition of the library authority’s board and are prepared to discuss the governance arrangement with the Committee. Those are our concerns, and we are willing to discuss them with the Committee.

547. Mr McNarry: I am absorbing your report. I wonder whether you share the Committee’s concerns about certain problems it has perceived. In your submission, you state that start-up costs must be properly identified and funded. The Department stated that it has set aside £670,000 for start-up costs. Do you agree with that figure? Do you think that that amount will not be enough, and that further money will be required for start-up costs in the second year?

548. Mrs Anne Connolly (North Eastern Education and Library Board): We have concerns about start-up costs. The chief executive said that in order to divest, the Department must invest, but we are concerned that £670,000 is not enough. We understand that the money is to cover part-year salaries for the chief executive designate and other senior staff, a support team, the rent of temporary premises and other consultancy costs.

549. However, we believe that other major start-up costs have not been brought into the equation. For example, the establishment of the identity of the new authority will cost quite a bit of money; so, too, may the implementation of a new staffing structure. At present, it is not known whether recruitment and redundancy costs have been factored into the start-up costs. The establishment of permanent headquarters and a regional structure will have to be funded. Activities to unite staff and help them to identify with the new authority must also be considered. Six hundred and seventy thousand pounds is a paltry sum of money with which to do what must be done.

550. Mr McNarry: How much is required? That question does not need a response immediately. Part of the problem with discussions is that they do not always provide enough information; for example, as to whether 10% or 20% or more is needed. Therefore, if the question is asked, the Committee must be able to state the amount that will be required. I understand that I may be asking you to stick your necks out. However, if you are prepared to do so, the Committee would be grateful to receive the information.

551. The Chairperson: With regard to the point that Gordon raised, extension of the Committee Stage of the Bill has been granted until 25 February 2008. I do not believe that anyone around the table anticipates that it will take until then to complete the business; however, there is flexibility. The Committee is confident that the Bill will be dealt with before that date.

552. Mr Topping: From our point of view, there may be an issue as regards the implementation date and ensuring that the authority is set up properly. There are also other cost factors.

553. Mr P Ramsey: Following on from Mr McNarry’s comments about the savings that the Department has declared will be made, and taking on board your concerns about the overestimation of those savings, what is the North Eastern Education and Library Board’s budget for staffing and revenue costs?

554. Also, the Department of Education funds the education and library boards’ early years development programmes. How will your delivery of programme be affected when the changeover occurs?

555. Finally, what about the money relating to the literacy and numeracy programmes? Will the new board be able to provide the same product and remain a centre of excellence for education?

556. Mrs Connolly: We have concerns about the proposed savings for several reasons, not least because they are based on assumptions, and we cannot be sure that all the assumed scenarios will happen.

557. I am the chief librarians’ representative on the Northern Ireland steering group, and we work closely with our colleagues in education to access funding for early-years learning. The North Eastern Education and Library Board has also accessed funding through the Northern Ireland Pre-school Playgroup Association to employ an extra member of staff for the early-years scheme. However, there are concerns. For example, funding for Bookstart will rest with the Department of Education, and we are concerned that we will not be able to continue to deliver the quality of service that we have now.

558. I missed the beginning of your question.

559. Mr P Ramsey: It was about the overestimated costs.

560. Mrs Connolly: The costing has been based on assumptions, and one example that worries us is the assumption that a number of people will choose retirement. They might not, because there is no compulsion to do so, and therefore that assumption cannot be backed up.

561. I am also concerned about the figures that have been cited for redundancy costs. Even if that money is put up — and we do not yet know whether there will be any money — the payback time will be at least two years, as we know from experience, so the savings have been overestimated. Additionally, the figures for planning for next year show a £1 million shortfall overall among the five boards, and given that we must add on the cost of corporate services, savings look less and less likely.

562. Mr P Ramsey: What is your budget for library provision?

563. Mrs Connolly: Our budget for the current year is £5·3 million, and we spend 62% of that on staff. That is quite generous, because we have increased our library opening hours. We have 29 ordinary static libraries and we have increased the opening hours for all of the big libraries.

564. Mr Topping: We are also the lead board for the electronic libraries project, and our budget for that is about £4·3 million.

565. Lord Browne: You seem fairly confident that the Bill will bring about the changes necessary to deliver a modern, efficient library service; but do any specific clauses give you concern? Is there anything that you think should be included?

566. Mr Topping: I mentioned in my initial statement that we have concerns about several issues: one is about the governance arrangements. Originally, in the draft Bill, 10 people were supposed to be involved in the new board, and that number has now been increased to 15. It could be argued that that number is still rather small, particularly if an adequate committee structure is to be set up.

567. Another issue worrying us about the governance arrangements is the composition of the board. The anticipated arrangements will follow the Nolan principles and will go through the normal Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments process. However, the Bill is not establishing any type of representation requirement; for example, the new board might not be representative geographically or take into account local interests. We would like that provision to be included, so that stakeholders can become involved in the new governance arrangements.

568. We are also concerned about the need to move rapidly on the staff-transfer scheme, in particular. I mentioned the problems that staff face, such as uncertainty, low morale and concerns about their future. The sooner we can get the staff-transfer scheme under way, the better. We have always regarded all our staff as being board staff, whether they work in the Library Service or the Education Service. However, the difficulty is that some staff will go to the education authority while another group will go to the library authority, and perhaps at different times.

569. Over the past 15 years, we have been developing a system that manages staff in a corporate way across funding boundaries. Therefore, one of the difficulties will be in separating the staff because if the transfer systems develop at different speeds library staff could find themselves being transferred before education staff, or vice-versa, and we would be left to pick up the pieces. We could end up with staff for whom we have no funding, or we could have education staff who will have nothing to do.

570. Lord Browne: Would there be an adverse effect on staff if the library authority were not formed by 2008?

571. Mr Topping: Not necessarily. However, more certainty must be built into the system to ensure that the date for the library authority’s formation becomes a deadline. That must be a realistic date. I did not believe that 1 April 2008 was ever an achievable target. All staff must be treated equally and at the same time. That would allow us to manage the transfer more effectively.

572. Mr P Maskey: I am not sure whether my question has already been asked. In your submission, you have stated your concerns about the Libraries Bill. You said that you were concerned that the library authority will be established before the education and skills authority. What are the problems with that? What risks are there to your board if the new library authority is not established by 1 April 2008?

573. Mr Topping: When the library authority and the education and skills authority are established, we will have to split the services — the schools’ library service is funded by the Department of Education, and the public library service is funded by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. In addition, some people are currently being paid from two separate budgets. However, they are board staff and are being paid partly by the Library Service and partly by the education service. For example, Mrs Connolly is the director of library and corporate services, and part of her salary comes from DCAL and part of it comes from the education service. When the new library authority is set up, we will have to divide the staff so that they are paid by one Department. If, for example, a member of staff decides that they do not want to transfer to the library authority, or if it is not appropriate for them to do so, we could be left with a person whose salary is transferred to the library authority. That could be a major issue.

574. Mr P Ramsey: You could also have two redundancies.

575. Mr Topping: Yes; that is another matter. There are issues around staff being treated with equality and how the service would be delivered by the new library authority if staff do not have enough time to set up the systems, processes and structures when it comes into operation. As an organisation, we will be facing problems such as paying staff, processing accounts, monitoring finance, and purchasing materials.

576. I do not think that there are any risks if the transfers to the library authority and the education and skills authority are managed simultaneously and through the same process.

577. Mr Shannon: Thank you for your presentation. Concern has been expressed, not only by yourselves but by others, about how support-services costs for the new authority have been calculated. The fear seems to be that those costs will be greater than anticipated. Do you have any figures indicating the cost? Also, do you have a view on the best location for support services?

578. Mrs Connolly: We are examining the Deloitte report, and we hope to have discussions with DCAL and colleagues about the concerns that the report has raised. On initial reading, we believe that the costs have been underestimated. We have no figures, but we are prepared to work on that. Also, if we are thinking about efficiency, support services should be at a shared location.

579. In our view, sharing support services with the education side would be an option. Another option would be to share support services with other agencies in DCAL.

580. Mr Brolly: The fundamental concern in your submission, and in others, is that the new library authority may become clinical, with officials living in an ivory tower and losing contact with developments on the ground. How can we ensure that the library authority keeps close contact with the education side and local councils and maintains the kind of “warmth” of the Library Service, as opposed to becoming an organisation that may become clinical?

581. Mr McCartney: As a user of the library service, as well as being chairman of the library committee, I connect with my local library. I know the staff; they know me, and that essence must be maintained. There has to be a local connection. I hope that whatever happens as regards the councils they will take a keen interest in the libraries in their area.

582. I visited a library in the United States in which local volunteers had formed a “Friends of the Library” group. Establishing such groups here, with the help of the local councils, would maintain the local connection. I foresee that the new library authority will be large and efficient, but it will need to maintain a local dimension. There should be a subregional dimension, since, in order to cover the whole of Northern Ireland, the library authority has to be quite large. Councils will have a role to play in that. The original concept of coterminosity should be revisited to assist in that process.

583. The Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation.

584. I formally welcome Patricia McKeown and Jonathan Swallow from UNISON.

585. Ms Patricia McKeown (UNISON): The Committee has UNISON’s written submission in which, of necessity, we have adopted a twin-track approach. Members will know from the first part of our submission that we do not believe it right to proceed with a separate library authority for a number of reasons. We want to return to the original concept of the review of public administration (RPA), which was about achieving better, more effective delivery of public services.

586. We were very concerned when we saw a proposal in the RPA that would lead to the establishment of a separate quango for libraries, because we could not see sense in that. The proposal seemed to be more about that part of the public service fitting in with the administration of the state rather than looking for the most sensible location for library services.

587. From an early stage, members of UNISON who work in and service the education and library board sector have been of the clear view that libraries should be part of the education system, and that, whatever type of education structure Northern Ireland ends up with, that is where they should stay.

588. The fairly widespread public view is that we need to address the existing proliferation of quangos instead of creating new ones. That has been pretty much an all-party argument for a very long time, and for UNISON it is still extremely valid.

589. We looked at how library services are constructed in Great Britain — where we are the main union in the library sector — and in the Republic of Ireland. Neither jurisdiction has anything vaguely resembling a single authority for libraries. Library services in both of those jurisdictions are constructed in such a way that they are within democratic control, and elected representatives and the community are involved in delivery.

590. The other issue for Northern Ireland is that the small scale and geographic spread of our libraries do not easily lead to the creation of a single authority to control them. There are a number of reasons for that. The proposed authority would face very significant challenges in building critical mass. There would be particular problems in how corporate overheads, and any other support costs, would be absorbed. The financial and explanatory memorandum did not address that subject in any detail, which UNISON found disappointing. Undoubtedly, that will bear down on the service and employment.

591. The strength of public feeling in local communities has been seen recently, with the proposed closure of branch libraries. UNISON cannot see how the establishment of a stand-alone body, which would then be required to deal with a range of overheads and other support services, would not end up with a future programme of library closures in order to fund the existence of that body. That concept is completely opposite to that of the RPA, which is about how resources can be channelled down to the front-line services and into communities. An effective structure for doing so already exists in the education and library boards. People are already employed to carry out overhead and support tasks for a very large critical mass of education workers, and they deliver that service in a very cost-effective way for our libraries.

592. UNISON also has very clear views about the critical links among libraries, wider education and lifelong learning. Those links will be damaged if libraries are taken out of the education sector and left to stand alone. Education reform is outside the brief of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure. I realise that the Committee is concerned about the funding of libraries, but we have consistently argued that there needs to be greater crossover among Departments in matters relating to public-service delivery. That is how we should proceed to achieve the most effective services. We saw the recent ministerial announcement about the delay of the education reform structure, and that will have an immediate bearing on the work of the Committee.

593. The Committee should advise the Assembly that it should not proceed with the draft legislation that proposes a stand-alone library service. That is not in the best interests of the public — particularly in local and rural communities — and it will not achieve a cohesive, all-embracing delivery of education in schools, the workplace and the wider lifelong learning agenda. That is not the best way forward, and it would be better for the Library Service to remain within the education sector. We do not believe that the draft legislation is capable of being amended to that effect, and its recommendations should be set aside.

594. If that is not the view that is arrived at by the Committee or the Assembly — and I hope that that is not the case — we will make other proposals about the legislation as it stands. In particular, we will make proposals regarding the protection of the workers we represent. We have said some technical things about that in relation to the current draft.

595. Mr Jonathan Swallow (UNISON): If the legislation proceeds, there are two issues about which we are concerned. Health reform — the creation of the five trusts — proceeded without an agreed transfer scheme and framework. By the time it happened, we were on the forty-eighth draft. That was a fundamental deficiency, and it was not on the trade union side — we were trying to get it right. That creates a risk of litigation and concern for all involved in the health sector. An agreed transfer scheme would be of enormous benefit to all parties in the process, not just the trade union side. There can be statutory provision for that through the use of the word “agreed” and its definition in the explanatory memorandum.

596. I am also concerned — and it is the wider policy of the trade union movement on all such reform — that Northern Ireland is clogged up with so many industrial tribunals, with enormous waiting lists. That is not a good way of solving problems. UNISON is proposing a third-party process — unique to the RPA — whereby any individual or group could take an issue in respect of transfer, or failure to abide by transfer schemes or frameworks, and have a speedy resolution. The legislation — if it proceeds — would be enormously strengthened by the inclusion of such provisions.

597. Mr P Ramsey: It is important to look at the library provision in the legislation, and we are questioning a number of the submissions that have been made. You have expressed concerns on literacy and lifelong learning, and the important role of early-years development. How do you feel about those areas coming under a single authority that would be funded exclusively by the Department of Education, rather than DCAL or the education boards? Your submission also expresses your concern that there is no grievance procedure in the existing library provision; I am also concerned about that.

598. How would you like to see the Bill amended to ensure that different mechanisms will be in place to give resolution and comfort to employees with grievances?

599. Lord Browne: Are you concerned that setting up the library authority before the education and skills authority will have adverse effects for your members? How will that affect morale? Should the two bodies be set up in synchronisation?

600. Ms McKeown: I will answer Lord Browne’s question. We do not want the Assembly to set up a separate library authority, but setting it up on a different timescale to the reorganisation of the education sector would be a disaster. We are already experiencing problems in the Health Service, where there has been some reorganisation in a significant part of the service while the other part has been, quite rightly, stalled — and we were advocates of that stalling. The difficulty is that there are big morale issues for a large number of staff who are uncertain about the future.

601. Low morale and uncertainty have a knock-on impact on service delivery, and we hope that that will be put right. However, there is a big lesson to be learned when it comes to the education and library sector. Somebody else has already got a mess on their hands, and we do not want to see the same thing replicated in the education and library sector. We have made that very clear. The current employers feel exactly the same way, and it would be as big a nightmare for them as it would be for the unions.

602. Mr Swallow: I shall pick up the point on literacy. I had the privilege of working with the Belfast Education and Library Board and the unions on a review of literacy provision. The clear outcome of that review was that we should get all hands on deck, get focused, and integrate services, because the review found that 25% of pupils in Belfast were functionally illiterate when they left school. Devastating statistics require urgent responses. However, we found that, although we could form partnerships with other bodies, the more issues we had under direct control and under direct inclusion in the literacy strategy, the more effective that strategy could be. Losing that organic link with the Library Service would be profoundly damaging. Let us remember that literacy is a central part of the health equality strategy: people who are literate are also healthier. This is a fundamental policy issue that crosses several Departments and we must be careful that we do not weaken the cohesion to focus through the education service.

603. We work with employers on lifelong learning literacy training for people who have been let down by the schools system. We should not be doing that; we should be running other forms of training jointly with employers, and the schools system should be producing pupils with literacy skills.

604. As for grievances, trade unions will negotiate effective internal grievance systems, whatever structures emerge. That issue arises if the system were to fail during the transfer process. We are seeking a fail-safe third-party mechanism across the review of public administration as the best way of giving people confidence and belief that they will be treated fairly during the difficult circumstances of merging.

605. Ms McKeown: That is also very detailed work. The Committee has documentation of the work being done under the auspices of the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions in the central RPA negotiations. That work is at a fairly advanced stage and involves the type of amendment that would be necessary to give effect to it in the legislation — which we hope will not proceed anyway.

606. Mr Shannon: We probably all agree that the new library authority is unlikely to be established before 1 April 2008. If that were the case, would there be any risks or disadvantages for your members?

607. Ms McKeown: I cannot see any risks at all in the status quo.

608. Mr Brolly: Mr Swallow mentioned cohesion. Everyone is worried that the new library authority may become separated from the grass roots. Ms McKeown said that the legislation is not capable of amendment anyway, but if the worst comes to the worst — in Ms McKeown’s terms — and there is a new library authority, how could cohesion be retained, and how could legislation ensure that we keep in touch with the grass roots in education, local authorities and so on?

609. Ms McKeown: One way would be for the new library authority to have democratic representation of communities and elected representatives on its board, and other interest groups, such as other public-sector providers.

610. We must be much more imaginative when considering new structures. We are fearful of unaccountable quangos — there is no imperative on them to do business collectively and cohesively.

611. Mr Brolly: Do you also welcome the inclusion of members of trades unions and their representatives?

612. Ms McKeown: Yes. However, we believe that we ought to be included as of right, rather than go through a vetting system that requires us to measure up to somebody else’s standards.

613. The Chairperson: Could you address Jim’s question, Patricia?

614. Ms McKeown: We do not think that there are risks with the status quo. Obviously, people are nervous because everyone wants to know of what the new structures will consist. The sensible decision is to wait, rather than put anyone in the position that approximately 60,000 health workers found themselves in. We are still dealing with the fallout from that.

615. Mr Swallow: On the question of risks, education boards provide corporate support services such as payroll, asset management and cleaning to libraries. The mood music in some circles is that both the library authority and the education and skills authority want to go their own way on those matters — almost like a clean-break divorce, heaven help us.

616. That leaves people at risk, because we do not have whole-time equivalents. Therefore, for example, the library authority would have no one to manage cleaners. As a result, the inevitable contracting out would follow. Regarding the payroll, asset management and other corporate sections, there is no way of transferring any individual — under The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 legislation — as no one is identified with the work. However, there is a substantial loss of workload, and, as a result, there will be redundancies.

617. There are knock-on effects. It is disturbing to see the emergence in both organisations — even in preliminary discussions on new structures — of a culture in which people want to make a clean break and go their own way.

618. Mr McNarry: I share your overview on quangos. Unfortunately, we are not here to discuss quangos; we are here to discuss a Bill. With any new authority, start-up costs need to be properly identified and funded. The Department has stated that it has set aside £670,000 for start-up costs. Do you have any reason to believe that £670,000 is sufficient, or will further money be required to meet start-up costs?

619. Ms McKeown: We strongly believe that further money will be required for start-up costs — if not immediately, soon. However, if the functions that still have to be carried out, such as the delivery of services and the employment of staff, are properly dealt with, further money will be very quickly required in the short term.

620. We cannot understand why a crazy proposal to replicate what is already in place should be on the cards at all. The Department would be better served by putting that money into the reform of education per se.

621. Mr McNarry: What will the costings be? Are you in negotiations about costings to cover the issues that you have identified?

622. Ms McKeown: We do not know what size the proposed empire will be — that is how we regard it.

623. Mr McNarry: Empires grow. It would be useful to gauge your opinion about how costs might escalate. If costs are to be challenged, the obvious question is: how much will those costs be?

624. Ms McKeown: We will be very happy to give our opinion in consultation with the education and library boards. They will tell us the extent to which their staff provide core and support services on the delivery side — I think that that is a quantifiable figure.

625. Mr McNarry: Will you provide the Committee with that information when it has been completed?

626. Ms McKeown: Yes, I would be pleased to do that.

627. Mr McNarry: I would be grateful to receive it.

628. Mr Swallow: In a divorce, an inventory of assets is usually produced. In this case, the inventory of assets consists of buildings, people and their work. I would start by counting heads and asking what proportion of each person’s time is occupied by library work. I would then estimate the effect of the divorce, should two separate identities be opted for or support continue to be provided. The Department has not carried out enquiries in any detail, and we have had no evidence from our members of such a census approach being taken. If a sound baseline for start-up costs is to be established, those enquiries are essential and must happen.

629. Mr Brolly: It is strange that you have not done that.

630. Mr McKeown: That is not our responsibility. The proposal came from the Government and from Departments, which have all the resources and knowledge to make those enquiries.

631. Mr Brolly: On the basis that you question the figures —

632. Ms McKeown: We question the figures on the basis of experience. We have lived through so many public-sector reorganisations — not least in health — and have seen the consequences.

633. Mr McNarry: Will you have a crack at it for us?

634. Ms McKeown: The existing employers should do some work on that matter. They know, in detail, the extent to which the existing workforce provides services that keep an efficient, first-class library service operating.

635. The Chairperson: I thank Patricia McKeown and Jonathan Swallow from UNISON for attending and presenting evidence. The Committee is grateful.

636. I formally welcome the deputation from the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA), which comprises John Corey, Mary McVeigh and Alison Millar. John, please introduce your team.

637. Mr John Corey (Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance): I am joined by Alison Millar, who is the NIPSA official responsible for approximately 800 members from the Library Service. We represent more than 70% of library staff. Mary McVeigh is the chairperson of our library subgroup and a real live librarian. That is the team; I am the general secretary of NIPSA.

638. The Chairperson: Please present your evidence. Incidentally, thank you for your detailed submission, which we have all read twice. [Laughter.]

639. Mr Corey: I am pleased to hear that. I understand that the convention is that I should present for five minutes and allow time for questions. However, if the Committee agrees, and given the technical nature of the points that we have raised, I do not intend to speak for five minutes. There are two parts to the evidence that we have submitted and to the issues that concern us.

640. There are general issues regarding a library authority in the first part of the Bill and in schedule 1. The Executive made it clear that the schedule 2 provisions will become the model for all RPA transfers. The provisions of schedule 2 go significantly beyond the proposed library authority.

641. Alison Millar will deal with the first part of our evidence about the provisions of the Libraries Bill, which Mary will comment on. I will deal with schedule 2. The Committee has helpfully identified the main issues and some questions from our submission, which we are happy to deal with.

642. Ms Alison Millar (Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance): NIPSA suggests that the ancillary powers of the library authority be widened. Not all libraries are established by statute — the Linen Hall Library is an example — so NIPSA wants to ensure that the new library authority can work and co-operate with other relevant bodies without impediment. The ancillary powers are too narrow; we should ensure that the authority is inclusive rather than exclusive.

643. The legislation on charges for certain library services is narrow and could give rise to discriminatory procedures. The legislation could be interpreted in several ways: could one person be charged more than another? Will individuals and corporate bodies be charged differently? Will a foreign national be charged differently? The legislation is ambiguous. Those are NIPSA’s main concerns.

644. The size of the library authority’s governing board is one of the issues that arise from paragraph 2 of schedule 1, which deals with membership. Eight members is too few, and NIPSA suggests extending that number to between 12 and 18 because a board of between eight and 12 would not provide the necessary breadth of knowledge, experience, and fair representation of interests.

645. There should be fair representation for all sections of society — elected representatives, trade union nominees and representatives from the business community — in the allocation of seats. That is not reflected in the established bodies, which do not have trade union nominees or elected representative as of right. Each of those sections should receive a third of the seats.

646. The question was asked whether trade unions have seats on the education boards — we do not, which is due to the current regime. Historically, the education and library boards always had elected representatives and trade union nominees present as of right. That was fair and reflected the aspirations of those that we represented on the education and library boards.

647. NIPSA is trying to ensure a turnover in tenure of office in line with current recommendations so that a chairperson does not serve more than two terms of three years. That is to ensure that there is some turnover, but also allows for consistency. No one will be able to serve more than six years as a chairperson.

648. We also raised the issue of secondment. We are not opposed to how that is treated in the Bill, but we want to broaden the provision to have a two-way process, allowing for Civil Service secondments between the education and skills authority and the library authority, and between the library authority and the education and skills authority. Provision in the Bill is too prescriptive, and it needs to be broadened so that secondment arrangements that are appropriate for everyone are in place.

649. We raised the issue of the schools’ library service with Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure officials over the past few months. At present, the library service itself is small and receives a small funding allocation, yet the schools’ library service has to be funded from within that. It is proposed that the schools’ library service be placed under the aegis of the education and skills authority, and the public library service placed under the aegis of the Northern Ireland library authority. Staff should be able, for career-development purposes, to transfer between the two organisations, and in the case of redundancy, for example, staff could be protected by redeployment from the schools’ library service into the public library service, and vice versa.

650. I raised that matter at an informal meeting with the chief executive designate, who was appointed only recently. Expressions of sympathy were made by her and by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. I again raised the matter informally with Mr Gavin Boyd, the chief executive designate of the education and skills authority. Although those concerns were noted, they were in a long line of issues that the chief executive will have to deal with, and we are concerned that they will fall off the agenda. That is why we particularly want to protect staff. I should explain that staff are not appointed to the schools’ library service; they just end up there. People could be transferred from the schools’ library service a week before the Bill is enacted and then find themselves in the Northern Ireland library authority. Those are most of the issues that we wanted to cover in respect of schedule 1 to the Bill.

651. The Chairperson: Mary, do you wish to add to that?

652. Ms Mary McVeigh (Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance): No.

653. The Chairperson: Then we will proceed to questions.

654. Mr Corey: Yes, and we will deal with schedule 2, if that is acceptable.

655. Mr McNarry: I am unsure about the schedules, but I will ask some questions because we are short of time.

656. I welcome the witnesses. You are all busy people and I wish you well with your course of action. I will ask about savings, and then about costs. In your submission, you state an obvious concern about the way in which the savings predicted for 2009-10 and 2010-11 have been calculated. You do not accept that these figures are accurate. Do you think that the Department has overestimated the savings that can be made?

657. My next question is about start-up costs, which need to be properly identified. Some £670,000 is set aside for start-up costs. Have you any reason to believe that that will be enough? Will further money be required because the start-up costs have been underestimated?

658. Ms Millar: We had raised the issue of cost, and mentioned it to the Department and the Minister when we met him in July. Subsequently, I received a letter dated 2 August. However, the information in that letter left me none the wiser.

659. The first part of your question was about the estimated savings over those two years. Although any new organisation would not need five chief librarians, we were concerned by the proposal to have fewer staff at senior- and middle-management level. However, more importantly, a degree of natural wastage is expected among staff from 2008 to 2011 by way of retirement, but, as I have already said, some of that cannot be absorbed without replacement.

660. There have been significant cuts in the libraries budget over the past three or four years, and many posts in the Library Service have been lost. We expected that a new library authority would need a capital injection at the start to ensure that it got off to a good start — everyone around the table would want the new library authority to be successful. However, my concerns are that the letter was saying to us that, as staff leave, they would not be replaced. I wonder how that will be received.

661. We are also concerned about the figure of £670,000, which has been divided — including staff salaries of £380,000 — into £385,000 and £200,000 for consultancy work. We have asked for a further breakdown of the figures so that we can see how they were arrived at and can make a judgement as to whether they are enough. That request was sent to the Department on 13 August. Unfortunately, we are still waiting for a response. We are very concerned that almost one third of the money set aside will be used to pay consultants. That is a huge amount of money for a relatively small organisation.

662. Mr McNarry: I sense that NIPSA is set to challenge the Department on its start-up cost figures. Would that be on the basis that it has had costs prepared that indicate that £670,000 is not enough?

663. Ms Millar: We have not received that information. We have asked the Department to explain how it arrived at the figure of £670,000. Without knowing that, as a starting point, it is difficult for us to challenge the figure. We only have three short paragraphs, which do not provide us with the information that would allow us to move forward.

664. Mr McNarry: If that information is forthcoming, and NIPSA has an opinion on it, would you apprise us of that? That would be very useful. I am not too sure where NIPSA stands on the setting up of the new authority. Are you in favour, mildly in favour, against, or mildly against?

665. Mr Corey: My colleagues can comment on that point. However, I would like to quickly deal with the finances. The Department has said that £380,000 of the £670,000 is for staff salaries; £85,000 is for premises and computer set-up; £6,000 is set aside for support for board members, and £200,000 is for consultancy, which we are concerned about.

666. We have come through a process of considering all the options for a new library authority, but the current view of Library Service staff, the majority of whom are NIPSA members, is that they favour a single library authority as the best option for the delivery of a library service in the future. However, there is a significant concern about the interface between the schools’ library service and the new library authority.

667. On the question of the timing of the establishment of a new library authority, and whether we have a problem with a delay until 1 April 2009, the simple answer is no. It makes sense from an employment-relations point of view to introduce the education and skills authority and the library authority at the same time.

668. Mr McNarry: Thank you for that answer.

669. Mr Brolly: It is interesting that you are in favour of the establishment of a single library authority, but that you also have concerns about how that authority may lose contact with the educational establishment. What recommendations would you make to ensure that the new library authority keeps in touch with the grass roots in the way that the current library system does?

670. Mr Corey: We have not come prepared to answer that specific question, but I will ask my colleague Mary McVeigh from the Library Service to comment on that. It is fair to say that our members in the Library Service feel that it has been the Cinderella service of the education and library boards. They feel that when difficult times come, the Library Service always suffers most. They believe that the creation of a clear single library authority in Northern Ireland would remove that difficulty and enable the service to stand on its own. Mary may wish to say more about that.

671. Ms McVeigh: Our members are very much in favour of rural libraries and libraries in the community. I would say that they are 100% behind maintaining the links that already exist in communities. They do not envisage that the establishment of a single library authority would change that.

672. Mr Brolly: I disagree slightly. There is always a possibility that when a service becomes strongly centralised —

673. Ms McVeigh: We would want to make sure that —

674. Mr Brolly: That is exactly the question that I asked. John said that you might not have been prepared for the question, so it would be useful if you could send the Committee a written submission on that matter.

675. Ms McVeigh: I am in charge of the Irish and Local Studies Library in Armagh, which is part of the Southern Education and Library Board. We hope that a library such as ours would not be caught up in a central body in Belfast, and that we could maintain those types of local facilities.

676. Mr Brolly: I understand that.

677. Lord Browne: I congratulate you on your full and good submission. You said that, in general, you had no objection to the provision for secondments between the new authority and the education and library boards. You also say that the Bill does not mention the schools’ library service and that staff should retain the right to move between the public library service and the schools’ library service. As the Bill stands, paragraph 6 of schedule 1 mentions only secondments from the Civil Service. Have the staff of the boards expressed any view on that, and have you had any indication from the Department whether such secondments and moves would be allowed?

678. Ms Millar: As I have already said, sympathy has been expressed, but sympathy expressed at informal meetings does not necessarily translate into action in reality. At this point, our concern is that because staff in the schools’ libraries service make up quite a small group within the Library Service, they will be forgotten about until it is too late. We want to ensure that the schools’ library service is taken into account. I do not know how that matter sits within a legislative framework.

679. The education and skills authority will be responsible for the schools’ library service, and I am not sure how it will interact with the new library authority. I will bow to those who know more about writing legislation than I do, but does a specific provision need to be written into the legislation to allow for the transfer of staff for career development purposes, and, perhaps, for a redundancy situation? When I have raised the issue, sympathy has been expressed, certainly by DCAL officials and Irene Knox, but we have seen nothing formally in writing. Obviously, there must be liaison with the Education Committee and the chief executive of the proposed education and skills authority.

680. Lord Browne: How would you describe staff morale at the moment? Are they anxious?

681. Ms Millar: They are very anxious. The one question that is asked at every single meeting I have with staff is about the schools’ library service — it is even asked by those who do not currently work in the schools’ library service. That gives an indication of the level of anxiety.

682. Mr Shannon: I commend NIPSA on its presentation and on the information that it has provided. I also commend it on its campaign for classroom assistants, and we hope that that will be success. NIPSA certainly has our support.

683. Alison, you answered many of the questions before they were even put to you. You mentioned the membership of the authority. Keep me right, but I believe that NIPSA’s proposal was that one third of board members should comprise business representatives, another third should be community representatives, and the final third should be elected representatives. Is that correct?

684. Ms Millar: No. One third should comprise business and community representatives, another third should be elected representatives, and the final third should be trade union nominees.

685. Mr Shannon: I may have missed your comments about the number of members on the new library authority board. How many would you recommend should be on the board? You are not agreeable to there being only seven and, to be fair, I think that some of us are not happy with that either. I am interested in your opinion on that.

686. Ms Millar: There should be between 12 and 18 members on the board.

687. Mr Shannon: You also mentioned tenure of office. Again, my opinion may differ slightly from yours, but I am keen to learn your opinion on the matter. You said that a chairperson should serve for a maximum period of one term. I am not saying that a person should be a chairperson for life, or even that he or she should be like the Chairman of this Committee. [Laughter.] However, if the library authority’s board had a good chairperson, whoever that might be, would it not be better, for the sake of consistency, to be flexible on the maximum term for which that person could serve?

688. Ms Millar: We said in our submission that the reappointment of a chairperson should be for a maximum of one term. Therefore, the total period in office would amount to two terms. Normally, a chairperson would be appointed for three years. Consequently, the maximum time for which a chairperson could serve would be six years. After that time, it is only fair that the post be advertised and that the same chairperson not be reappointed. Such a turnover would allow for fresh thinking to be brought to the post. That is why NIPSA suggests a maximum period of six years — that is, the original term and the additional term.

689. Mr Shannon: Are you saying that a chairman who has been in post for six years could put his or her name forward for reappointment?

690. Ms Millar: No.

691. Mr Corey: NIPSA broadly accepts, and this is now the norm for public appointments, that people should not serve any more than two terms. Furthermore, those terms should last for three or four years. We have accepted that broad point.

692. NIPSA believes that it is right that the library authority, the education and skills authority or the health authority should include elected public representatives. That is consistent with the review of public administration’s principle on democratic accountability — now accepted by the Executive — which states:

“elected representative, both locally and regionally, can play their full role. That role includes decision making about services”.

693. However, NIPSA also says that representatives of employees, and of employers, in the sense of social-partnership representation, should be included.

694. Mr Shannon: Are trade unions represented on the education boards?

695. Mr Corey: They used to be represented on the education boards. However, the current public-appointments system tends to exclude representational groups. That is not in the best interests of the authority, or public services. Some public bodies are no longer wholly representative of society, because different sectors of society are not represented.

696. The Chairperson: John, may I ask you to move on to the second part of your submission?

697. Mr Shannon: May I ask another question, quickly? Mr Corey, you have expressed concerns about your staff. Do you feel that enough of your members will apply for redundancy packages and, therefore, make the savings work?

698. Mr Millar: No. We want the jobs to be retained. We will not encourage people to leave the organisation.

699. The Chairperson: John, could I ask you to move on to the second part?

700. Mr Corey: I would like to mention schedule 2 to the Bill, which provides for transfer schemes. NIPSA has provided some comments on the schemes in our written submission. We have submitted those comments to the Committee in a separate appendix.

701. The points that we have raised in our submission are all based on advice from senior legal counsel Mr Frank O’Donoghue QC. The facts are that those points have not been resolved to our satisfaction. The Committee asked whether those points had been resolved in negotiations with the Department. The answer is no, and that is because the parliamentary draftsman’s response to all the points that were raised was that he did not think that any of our suggested amendments were necessary. We remain in disagreement, so we have come before the Committee to put those points at the Bill’s Committee Stage.

702. I apologise that the matter is so technical; I may struggle to get everything across. The first point relates to paragraph 1 of schedule 2. Paragraph 1 provides for a scheme, the three elements of which are set out at 1(a), 1(b) and 1(c). Our legal advice is that paragraph 1 is deficient, because it does not also create any rights or liabilities for the employee or between the employee and either the transferor or the new authority.

703. The legal advice is that there should be wording in paragraph 1 to create rights and liabilities between employees and the transferor or the authority.

704. The response from the parliamentary draftsman is that that is not necessary because of paragraph 4(2), which states that The Transfer of Undertakings (Protections of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE) apply:

“The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (S.I. 2006/246) apply to the transfer whether or not the transfer would, apart from this paragraph, be a relevant transfer for the purposes of those regulations.”

705. The parliamentary draftsman’s argument is that additional wording is not needed because of that provision. Our legal advisor’s concern has been that, even though there is a provision in paragraph 4(2) — which he refers to an antonymous paragraph; in other words, its meaning is opposite to the rest of the scheme — an industrial tribunal could still face a challenge from an employer that a particular transfer is not a relevant transfer for the purposes of TUPE.

706. The underlying reason behind this is that TUPE legislation does not apply to public-sector reorganisations — they are excluded. Therefore paragraph 4(2) has been included in the Bill — as an antonymous provision — as an attempt to make TUPE legislation apply to public-sector reorganisations.

707. Nonetheless, our legal advisor is concerned that that could be challenged in an industrial tribunal. His point is that the whole of schedule 2 should make it clear that the transfer scheme includes employee rights and liabilities by adding appropriate wording to paragraph 1 of schedule 2. That is the point that carries through from the other points made in paragraphs 6 to 8 of appendix 1 to our submission. The same point is made in those paragraphs and, hopefully, they have explained the underlying factors. That is part of the complexity of TUPE legislation and transfer legislation.

708. To move on to other points that were raised in our submission: we raised a concern about paragraphs 4(3)(c) and 4(3)(d) of schedule 2. We believe that paragraph 4(3)(c) should include a reference to incorporating independent arbitration. Currently, the paragraph refers to procedures designed to resolve grievances, but we believe that that should be extended to include the phrase “incorporating independent arbitration”. We were also concerned that paragraph 4(3)(d) should include a clear reference that the determination of the compensation should be subject to the procedures under grievance and independent arbitration.

709. Again, the parliamentary draftsman’s response was that those amendments are not considered necessary, and he went on to argue that if anyone was dissatisfied with the compensation that they received, they could go to an industrial tribunal. With the greatest respect, we believe that that misses the whole point of why the legislation for a transfer scheme exists. The point is that we are trying to secure a statutory duty on all employers under the review of public administration to provide for transfer arrangements for employees that are additional to TUPE.

710. That is the entire purpose of this. It is not a satisfactory response to say that the changes do not have to be made because if anyone were dissatisfied about compensation, he or she could go to an industrial tribunal, presumably under TUPE legislation. The key point is that one can only go to an industrial tribunal under TUPE legislation if one has constructively dismissed oneself or been otherwise dismissed. The procedures that NIPSA wants to set up under a transfer scheme are to enable employees to pursue complaints in order to be paid compensation and grievances, but remain in their employment. That is the fundamental difference. There has been no resolution on that. In our submission, we proposed specific amendments that could be made to paragraphs 4(3)(c) and 4(3)(d). We stand by those suggested amendments. We believe that they are reasonable because they are based on other models of legislation that use the same type of phrases.

711. I would now like to refer to paragraph 4(6) of schedule 2. I apologise if members were mislead by paragraph 11 of appendix 1 of or submission, which refers to “paragraph 6”. It should have read “paragraph 4(6)”. That sub-paragraph deals with grievances and who will hear them. NIPSA is concerned that the sub-paragraph, as drafted, does not make it sufficiently clear that grievances will be heard by an independent person or body. It will be left to the authority or the employer to nominate any person or body that it wishes to hear a particular grievance. That person or body does not necessarily have to be appointed by the Labour Relations Agency in line with independent arbitration arrangements.

712. Therefore, we believe that paragraph 4(6) should be revised in line with the wording that we have suggested:

“Procedures under paragraph (3)(c) and (3)(d) above shall include a mechanism for grievances to be referred to independent arbitration under the aegis of the Labour Relations Agency.”

713. I must say that I have never before seen the formulation of words that appears in the Bill in legislation that relates to employees, grievances and independent arbitration. I am not sure of the background from which it came.

714. In passing, I want to point out that the Public Service Commission has requested that the order of paragraphs 4(3)(c) and 4(3)(d) be reversed in order to make it clearer that the consideration of compensation is a matter that falls under grievance procedures. At present, the mention of grievance procedures comes before compensation. The commission has suggested that paragraph 4(3)(c) should deal with compensation and that paragraph 4(3)(d) should deal with grievance procedures. However, we stand by our suggested amendments.

715. Finally, paragraph 4(5)(b) deals with pension protection. We are concerned that it does not adequately protect pension benefits. The draft legislation states that:

“‘pension protection’ is secured for a transferring employee (‘T’) if after the change in T’s employer T has, as an employee of the Authority, rights to acquire pension benefits”.

716. In law, it could be argued that there is a difference between rights to acquire pension benefits and actual pension benefits. NIPSA made that point to the parliamentary draftsman but it was rejected as being unnecessary. Our understanding is that it was rejected because the Department was unwilling to make the change on the basis that, in law, a person has the right not to opt into an employer’s pension scheme. In law, a person can decide that he or she does not want any pension benefits. The Department is saying that it cannot write in a provision that implies that a person must take the pension benefits that will be available in the new authority. That is not right, nor is the idea that the principle — that a person can decide not to have pension benefits — is in any way nullified by the amendment that NIPSA is suggesting.

717. NIPSA’s written submission suggested amending the paragraph to follow the wording that was used in one of the most recent examples of such legislation, the North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which dealt specifically with transfer of staff and pension entitlements. NIPSA can see no reason why the same legislative point could not be repeated in the Libraries Bill.

718. However, as an alternative, NIPSA suggests an even simpler amendment to paragraph 4(5)(b) which currently states:

“as an employee of the Authority, rights to acquire pension benefits and those rights are the same as”.

719. We suggest removing the words:

“and those rights are the same as”.

720. The paragraph should be amended to read:

“rights to acquire pension benefits which are the same as”.

721. That would meet NIPSA’s point. I want that suggested amendment to be put on the record. The first suggestion was to follow the North/South implementation bodies’ legislation model. However, I have made the further suggestion that NIPSA’s point of concern would be met by the above amendment.

722. Those are the key points of the legislation that are of concern to NIPSA, and we have not resolved them with the Department. As I said at the outset, they are critically important, because they are not relevant to the library authority alone. The Executive have made it clear that this will be the model for all review of public administration transfers, so we must get it right.

723. The Chairperson: Given the time pressure that the Committee is under, I will allow two contributions. However, we will study everything that NIPSA has said today and its written submission. Thank you.

724. Mr McNarry: We were with you all the way until you mentioned schedule 2. I am glad that the Committee Stage has been extended until February to allow us to consider it all — that was positive thinking on the Committee’s part. Normally, technical arguments put us to sleep, but you have woken us up, John. It is heavy material, and you have almost taken the Committee through a training exercise. The Committee will scrutinise the Bill line by line, and we are glad of your input.

725. As the Chairperson said, the Committee will need to examine in depth what you said and the amendments that you are asking for. Will you be blunt and tell the Committee where you are going with this, and what you want the Committee to do? Are you looking for sponsors, or for someone to assist you in what you are doing? I am not clear about that. You have made your points; do you then have to convince someone in the Assembly to argue those cases? Have you started that?

726. Mr Corey: Yes. We have started the process in that this Committee will be considering the Bill at its Committee Stage. As you have said, that involves a line-by-line scrutiny of the clauses, and NIPSA is seeking to influence the Committee in that examination.

727. Mr McNarry: I understand that.

728. Mr Corey: If NIPSA must make further representations in order to get the legislation amended, it will try to do so. It would have been better had the parliamentary draftsman agreed with NIPSA’s written representations, which were based on senior counsel advice. However, that was not achieved. The Committee has a copy of the response that NIPSA received from the Department, which more or less says —

729. Mr McNarry: Have you met officials from the Department about it?

730. Mr Corey: We have not met the parliamentary draftsman directly. However, NIPSA is open to having a discussion with the draftsman, or his staff, to see whether we can resolve our differences on those points.

731. Mr McNarry: That would have been helpful.

732. Mr Brolly: We could meet the parliamentary draftsman to talk about that.

733. Mr McNarry: The parliamentary draftsman will have to talk to the Committee. There is no point in the Committee acting as a mediator.

734. Mr Brolly: I am intrigued by the notion that someone might not want their pension transferred.

735. Mr Corey: I am not an expert on pension law, but any employee can now tell their employer that they do not wish to participate in their pension scheme. It would be foolish to do that, but that is one of the legacies of Thatcher’s laws on public-sector pensions.

736. The Chairperson: I thank John Corey, Alison Millar and Mary McVeigh for their attendance and for giving us plenty to think about.

4 October 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland

Witnesses:

Mr Noel Kelly		Departmental Solicitors Office
Ms Julie Mapstone Mr Paul Sweeney		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure

737. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome Julie Mapstone, Noel Kelly and the permanent secretary of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Paul Sweeney. Would you please introduce yourselves? Is Paul here yet?

738. Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Mr Sweeney has been detained at another meeting, but he is in the Building and is expected to join the Committee soon.

739. I am head of the libraries restructuring branch of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. Noel Kelly is legal advisor from the departmental solicitor’s office. He is an expert in employment law and has been involved in many of the staffing issues that are connected to the RPA changes.

740. The Chairperson: There is no formal presentation, so we can move immediately to questions or comments.

741. Mr P Maskey: I will ask a three-part question on trade union concerns. NIPSA is concerned that clause 3 of the Libraries Bill does not allow for the proposed library authority to co-operate with other bodies. First, will you explain the thinking behind clause 3 and give examples of the kinds of bodies that you envisage the library authority co-operating with? Secondly, does clause 3 allow the library authority to co-operate with bodies that have not been established under statutory provision? Finally, has the Linen Hall Library been established under statutory provision?

742. Ms Mapstone: Partnerships are key issues for the library authority and are covered in clauses 2 and 3.

743. Clause 2(3) states:

“The Authority may make such arrangements with other bodies whether inside or outside Northern Ireland which it considers necessary in order to enable it to carry out its duty”.

Co-operation is reiterated in clause 3(2)(h).

744. The library authority will be required to work with other organisations in developing and delivering its services. A single library body is in a better position to develop such key partnership arrangements. The Bill will leave the library authority at liberty to effect partnership arrangements with whichever bodies it sees fit including, for example, the education and skills authority, the Linen Hall Library and any other sorts of organisation whose provisions it feels that it can use effectively to deliver services to the public.

745. Mr P Maskey: The authority is allowed that freedom?

746. Ms Mapstone: Yes.

747. Mr D Bradley: Could you explain what lies behind clause 4, which concerns the power of the authorities to undertake commercial activities? Can you assure the Committee that the Department will not judge libraries on their commercial success, or otherwise?

748. Ms Mapstone: That is not actually a new provision; under the current legislation, libraries have the authority to carry out commercial activity. That might include assisting on a commercial basis with research, production and sale of books of local interest, or providing coffee shops, which several libraries have begun to do. It is not new, but we wanted to make it absolutely clear, because many senior library staff were interested in developing some of those aspects.

749. The performance of the library authority will not be measured by reference to those commercial activities, because they are not expected to be a highly significant part of the Library Service’s work. Performance will be measured, in the usual way, by the extent to which the service meets, or surpasses, the policy guidelines set out in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’, by its achievement of the public library standards and by its stewardship of public moneys.

750. Mr D Bradley: Would it be helpful to include in the Bill clarification that libraries will not be judged on their commercial activities or success, given that that was one of the anxieties of the Chartered Institute of Libraries and Information Professionals?

751. The Chairperson: Do you want to pursue that any further, Dominic, or are you happy enough for now?

752. Mr D Bradley: I am happy with that.

753. Mr McCarthy: Many, if not all, of the witnesses were extremely concerned that the current wording of clause 6 does not guarantee free core services. Some were of the view that the current legislation is clearer, as it specifies what exactly can be charged for. Others suggested that the core services described in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ be specified in the legislation as being free. Why has the Department not specified clearly in clause 6 that core services will be free of charge? Would the Department consider amending the legislation to make the commitment to free core services more explicit?

754. Clause 6(2) permits different charges for different people, localities and circumstances, and that could, potentially, be discriminatory. What is the intention of clause 6(2), and why is it included in the Bill?

755. Ms Mapstone: The proposed legislation is not intended to change, in any way, the current charging regimes in the Library Service, but it is intended to simplify the existing statutory provision. That part of the current legislation has pages specifying in great detail what can and cannot be charged for.

756. In the Department’s policy-guideline document ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ its commitment to the public library service, as a universal service that is free at the point of use for its main provisions, is made quite clear. There is no intention whatsoever to change that, but it needed to be simplified. Indeed, in the explanatory and financial memorandum that accompanies the Bill, the commitment to a free library service is stated. That could be made more specific, but it would be very lengthy and structured and the Department wanted to get away from that. If the Committee has a view on how it could be better worded, we would be interested in hearing that.

757. A point was raised on clause 6(2), referring to the fact that:

“The scheme of charges may make different provision for different cases, including different provision in relation to different persons, circumstances or localities.”

758. That reflects the current, different, practice in the Library Service where, for instance, members can use the Internet free, but non-members are charged.

759. A fine for late return would not be levied from senior citizens or children, whereas it would be levied from adults. It is to make sure that that sort of different practice is covered.

760. Mr McCarthy: All the representations that the Committee has received have been concerned about the lack of commitment to continue with free services. Will you consider changing the wording of the Bill to convince us all that library services will be free at the point of delivery?

761. Ms Mapstone: We will consider that.

762. Mr Brolly: My point is supplementary to Mr McCarthy’s question. People are concerned about the sums of money that will be saved and the start-up costs that will be required. That adds to the concern that the library authority will be forced into a situation where it will have to slip in some charges that the Committee would not want to see happening. That is why Kieran’s point is important: the Bill should state explicitly that core services should be free at the point of delivery.

763. Mr D Bradley: Ms Mapstone, why would there be different charges in different localities?

764. Ms Mapstone: I cannot recall the reason for that. There are differences in certain charges; for example, libraries can hire out rooms to community groups and they can levy different charges according to the type of group involved. For a charitable body, there would be a reduced charge. We will come back to the Committee on that.

765. Mr McCausland: As regards co-operation with other bodies, Ms Mapstone mentioned the education authority and the Linen Hall Library. What other bodies might the library authority co-operate with, and what bodies outside Northern Ireland would be involved?

766. Ms Mapstone: I do not anticipate that there would be many bodies outside Northern Ireland involved. On a professional level, there could be connections with library services in other parts of the UK or in the Republic. There could be scope for joint activities.

767. Mr McCausland: Is the Linen Hall Library established by statute?

768. Ms Mapstone: It is. I do not have material relating to that point with me, but the Linen Hall Library is grant-aided by the Department for certain aspects of its provision.

769. Mr D Bradley: Mr McCausland mentioned the Linen Hall Library. What sort of relationship do you envisage the authority having with more independent libraries such as the Armagh Public Library and the Cardinal Tomás Ó Fiaich Memorial Library and Archive?

770. Ms Mapstone: Are you talking about partnerships between the library authority and those libraries?

771. Mr D Bradley: Yes. What partnerships or relationships could the library authority develop with those two libraries?

772. Ms Mapstone: That would be up to the library authority. Much of the Bill provides enabling measures, which will allow the authority to develop good relationships and partnership arrangements with other libraries and public bodies for better provision of public library services. The Department is not saying that the authority should or should not do something: we intend to make the provision available, should it be relevant.

773. Mr McCausland: Picking up on that point, does clause 3 allow the library authority to co-operate with bodies that are not established under statutory provision? That is why I asked about the Linen Hall Library. I am not sure, but I do not think that there is any legislation establishing that library — there may be some ancient provision from 1790 or so. However, there is no statutory provision for the Linen Hall Library. If that library is a body with which the authority might have a partnership relationship, and a funding role, then an issue arises about funding roles for other independent libraries such as the Armagh Public Library or others that might emerge.

774. Can you clarify that? Is that what would be anticipated?

775. Ms Mapstone: Any partnership arrangement that is useful for developing the service to the public would be allowable under the proposals. Nothing is being ruled out.

776. Mr McCausland: What about a funding role, not just a partnership? Does partnership imply a funding role?

777. Ms Mapstone: We do not anticipate altering the current arrangement whereby the grant to the Linen Hall Library goes directly from the Department.

778. Mr McCausland: It is funded directly from the Department?

779. Ms Mapstone: Yes.

780. Mr McCausland: I could understand that happening when there were separate education and library boards. Is there any reason why the funding will come directly from the Department, rather than through the library authority?

781. Ms Mapstone: The library authority’s prime concern will be the public Library Service. The Department could choose to delegate other funding to it, if there was capacity in the legislation to do so. However, the Department has no intention of doing that.

782. Mr McCausland: I understand that the library in the Ulster American Folk Park is supported by the Western Education and Library Board. That responsibility would pass to the library authority, I presume?

783. Ms Mapstone: The funding of it would; yes.

784. McCausland: I presume that other independent libraries that exist, or might emerge, would follow the example of the Linen Hall Library, whereby they would seek funding from the Department?

785. Ms Mapstone: If they were seeking funding from the Department, they would come to the Department.

786. Mr McCausland: Public funding for other independent libraries would come from the Department, rather than the authority?

787. Ms Mapstone: Yes.

788. Mr McCausland: In the current legislation, the phrase “comprehensive and efficient”, which refers to the standard of service, is not included in the Bill. Some people suggested in their submissions that it would be useful to have some reference to the quality of the service in the legislation. The suggestion was made that the annex from ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ could be incorporated in some way. Would the Department consider strengthening the wording of clause 2 by incorporating a set of standards? If not, why not?

789. Ms Mapstone: As members know, standards appear in the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ policy guidelines document, and that is the first time that standards have been set for the public Library Service in Northern Ireland. Progress towards achieving those standards will be monitored as part of the monitoring arrangements between the Department and the library authority. The expectation is that the authority will reach, or even surpass, those standards in the next few years. At that stage, the Department intends to review the standards to see whether they are still relevant or whether they might be changed or upgraded in order to continue the improvement and development of the service.

790. If the standards were to be included in the legislation, the Department would have to go back through the whole legislative process in order to amend them. We do not think that that is appropriate or necessary. Standards can be part of the relationship between the Department and the authority.

791. Mr McCausland: Is there any reason for not including the phrase “comprehensive and efficient” in the legislation? That would not have to be amended.

792. Ms Mapstone: The Department considered that phrase long and hard. That is a common phrase that is used about public library services across the UK — however, it is not terribly meaningful. What is meant by “comprehensive” must be spelled out. That is what the Department tried to do in redrafting the legislation. Having to legislate for efficiency is a little strange, because one would expect that to be monitored anyway.

793. We strengthened the duties of the authority in respect of the provision of a comprehensive service in clause 2(2)(a), which states that the specific task of the public Library Service is to provide:

“materials sufficient in number, range and quality to meet the general requirements of adults and children”.

794. That is an attempt to define what we mean by “comprehensive and efficient”.

795. We will look at that issue again. I recognise that witnesses have raised that concern in their evidence to the Committee.

796. Lord Browne: Most of the witnesses have expressed the opinion that establishing the library authority and the education and skills authority at the same time would be to the advantage of staff — it would maintain their morale and give them certainty. They have also said that 1 April 2008 is not a realistic date for the setting-up of the library authority. Has the Department had any discussions with the Department of Education about the timing of the establishment of the library authority and the education and skills authority? If so, what were the outcomes of those discussions?

797. Mr Paul Sweeney (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Obviously, the Department of Education’s decision on 19 July to announce that the establishment of the education and skills authority would not now take place on 1 April 2008, but at a time between then and April 2009, has had a material impact on all of these matters. Likewise, the Committee’s decision to seek a four-month extension to allow for further consultation — and rightly so; it was the Committee’s prerogative to do so — has had an impact.

798. As a result of all that, we have, as you might imagine, engaged with the Department of Education to work out in what way the timescales will have to be aligned. The Minister has obviously also reflected on that, and he has raised the issue with his Executive colleagues. My understanding is that he will come before the Committee on 18 October, and he wishes to engage specifically on that issue in the light of the decision about the education and skills authority and that fact that the legislation now needs more time at Committee Stage. The Minister wishes to specifically engage on the need to realign, and establish certainty about, the timescales for those two processes. Meanwhile, we and our colleagues in the Department of Education are working very closely on the practical tasks that need to be addressed.

799. Lord Browne: Do you foresee a realistic date for setting up the library authority? Is it possible that it will be set up not by 1 April, but at a later date?

800. Mr Sweeney: From the Minister’s point of view, April 2008 was the DCAL position. Some might say that it was an aspirational date, but until the Minister makes an official decision — and, in the first instance, advises the Committee of that decision — officials have to continue to work towards that date. As I say, I know that the Minister has given the matter very serious consideration, and he will engage with you specifically on the issue of timescales on 18 October.

801. Mr McNarry: Forgive me for being late, and please stop me if this has been raised already. The Committee has heard evidence from witnesses who have taken legal advice on the Bill that suggests that there are obvious elements in the Bill that are open to legal dispute. They have informed us that the reply to the advice has been that that may be the case, but any dispute should be sorted out at a tribunal. The rest of the Committee and I found that quite disturbing. What issues have been pointed out to you that indicate that a dispute is already taking place? Are you aware of a response to the effect of, “We recognise that disputes will arise, but rather than resolve then at this stage, we will let them go and allow them to be dealt with in tribunals and the courts.”?

802. Mr Sweeney: That may relate specifically to schedule 2 and the transfer schemes.

803. Mr McNarry: It does, yes.

804. Mr Sweeney: With the Committee’s approval, I will defer to my colleague from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office.

805. Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitors Office): Certainly, as far as I am aware, no response has ever issued to anyone from NIPSA or UNISON or anyone else along the lines of, “We recognise that there is a dispute, but we will leave it to the tribunals to sort it out.” That simply would not be the way in which we would approach it. Various issues were raised in the NIPSA document, of which you are aware.

806. We take a different legal view on those issues. To answer your specific question, nobody that I am aware of has responded in a way that suggests that we would leave the tribunals to sort out a mess that we had created.

807. Mr McNarry: I am grateful for that response. However, I will pursue the matter.

808. The drafting of the Bill is also a concern. You are telling the Committee that the two legal opinions are different — yours differs from someone else’s. That seems to link directly to an existing dispute. I need to know that you are confident that your opinion is right, that the other opinion is wrong, and that you will put yours in the legislation and allow it to be tested in the courts.

809. From a layman’s point of view, I am asking you to have another crack at the legislation and come back and let the Committee know that you are doubly sure that you are right and that they are wrong. That would reassure those of us who have to legislate on the matter and — somehow — agree the Bill, which is what we want to do. I am not suggesting that this would happen, but the Committee will take a dim view of being misled by anyone, particularly where legal opinion is concerned, when we are reliant upon advice. Given that, would it not be better to take on board what I have said? Would you take an opportunity to resolve the matters that I have mentioned to avoid a scenario in which the dispute may be hanging in abeyance, with the only course of action left being to go to a tribunal?

810. I say that because, when the matter comes before the Assembly — and even when the Committee scrutinises the minutiae of the Bill — I, and I am sure that other members will agree, will need to be satisfied that the legal advice that we are getting is correct. At the moment we have contrary legal advice. I will not flip a coin to decide which one I believe. However, I am sure that you appreciate where I am coming from. Given that a legal dispute is ongoing, I do not want schedule 2 to be included in the Bill in the knowledge that at the first opportunity the Bill will be tested in court. I do not think that the Minister would want that either.

811. Mr N Kelly: I understand your point. There are two differing legal opinions, and I am fully prepared to reconsider the issue. However, it will come as no surprise to the Committee to hear that in the run-up to today’s Committee meeting we went over the legislation again thoroughly. My opinion is still that it is correctly drafted. That will be of no immediate comfort to the Committee because another senior counsel has a contrary opinion. The opinion of Frank O’Donoghue QC has not been disclosed to me, but both in writing and in person, John Corey indicated what he said and what he was taking out of that opinion.

812. Certainly, I will reconsider each of the issues that have been raised. It would be helpful if we could see the full opinion that NIPSA obtained. The Committee may also find it helpful, but perhaps it has seen it already.

813. Mr McNarry: I appreciate Noel’s leading me, which makes a change — I was coming on to that matter. Given that a dispute has been signalled, it is important that those who created that resolve the matter by getting together.

814. I hope that the Committee would support such a request to those who have highlighted the prospect of a dispute.

815. It should be put on record that the Committee may need to seek a third legal opinion — an outside opinion. That is no disrespect to Mr Kelly, and I am reluctant to do so, because the money that it would cost could be spent on a school or on a hospital patient. I am taking a cross-cutting perspective, in that I would like to believe what you say, but I have heard a different opinion. If you and Mr O’Donoghue cannot get together, the Committee may need to take some action, but the matter must be resolved. .

816. Mr Brolly: In the ongoing argument between the two legal opinions, paragraph 15 on page 4 of NIPSA’s submission may be significant: “Trade Union Side has sought further legal advice on these matters.” “We remain strongly concerned that the current provisions in the Bill may not provide the necessary protection of staffs’ rights and we believe all the disputed clauses in Schedule 2 should be subject to further detailed scrutiny at Committee stage.”

817. It is significant that, in the second sentence, NIPSA uses the words “may not provide”, whereas its officials’ expressed a much stronger opinion when they first appeared before the Committee.

818. Mr N Kelly: The difficulty arises when a lawyer is asked to scrutinise a Bill, or any piece of work, and to try to punch holes in it. I stress that I have not seen Mr O’Donoghue’s opinion, but it may have been along the lines of recognising the possibility of a dispute. I suspect that his opinion is not couched in as definite terms as was initially suggested to the Department. However, it would have been extremely helpful to have seen his opinion.

819. The issues are complex, and my instructions throughout, when considering this Bill and throughout the work that I have done for other Departments on RPA, have been to ensure that the interests of staff are fully and properly protected in line with Cabinet Office guidance and TUPE protection. That is what I sought to achieve. However, if there is doubt, I want to see the full opinion and I would give it careful consideration. I know Mr O’Donoghue: he is an extremely able lawyer, and I would be interested to hear what he has to say.

820. Mr McNarry: In order to provide clarity to the Committee, is it the case that the contrary legal opinion has not been discussed with you?

821. Mr N Kelly: It has been discussed but not disclosed. I have seen paraphrased extracts.

822. Mr McNarry: Is there no way that you can agree with the suggestion that the response was that in that eventuality, the case would simply have to go to a tribunal?

823. Mr N Kelly: I am absolutely certain that that suggestion was not made by me, in my hearing, or, as far as I am aware, by anyone else. As at least one person in this room knows, I chair the tribunal, and I would not drum up extra work.

824. Mr McNarry: I accept that.

825. The Chairperson: I will move on to Dominic, who, I hope, will include the issues raised in paragraphs 2 and 3 of schedule 1 to the Bill in his question, such as how many board members the authority should have and the rules governing the tenure of office.

826. Mr D Bradley: That is exactly the point that I was going to raise. The Bill states that the board should have between seven and 14 members. Many witnesses who have appeared before the Committee have questioned the ability of such a small board to handle the workload involved, particularly as the nature of the work means that the board often has to set up subcommittees. A board that has between seven and 14 members would find that extremely difficult.

827. Did the Department look at the size of other boards in Northern Ireland and compare its proposal with those, or try to benchmark the board by comparing it to similar boards in other parts of the UK and the Republic?

828. Witnesses have expressed anxiety about the make-up of the board: they believe that it could be more representative and could include public and union representatives, and library interest groups. Have you considered inserting a clause into the Bill to deal with the make-up of the board? What are the pros and cons of introducing legislation to do that in comparison with leaving it to a public appointments process?

829. Ms Mapstone: The Department examined other boards in Northern Ireland for benchmarking purposes. We did not look outside Northern Ireland. We looked at the size of board membership, with particular reference to some of DCAL’s sponsor bodies such as the Arts Council and the Sports Council. There is a general move towards having smaller boards that work more effectively and efficiently, so we were trying to reflect that. The text of the Bill also reflects advice from the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments (OCPA), which recommends having smaller boards. However, the Minister is on record as saying that he wishes to reconsider all questions relating to the board: he has made that point to the Committee and wants to hear its advice.

830. OCPA recommends open appointments on the basis of merit and the need to reflect the width of experience required. The Department does not believe that the new library authority will need to have the range of committees that is currently required by the education and library boards. As the new board will be dealing only with the Library Service, fewer committees will be necessary. An audit committee and a finance committee will be needed: after that, the situation is quite open; therefore, we do not think that the need for committees will necessarily drive up the number of board members. As I have said, the Minister wishes to reconsider much of the detail.

831. Mr D Bradley: You said that the general feeling is in favour of having smaller boards, but is there any evidence that they are more efficient? You also said that appointments would be based on merit; but how will you ensure that you get board members who have the experience and level of interest needed?

832. Ms Mapstone: I am not aware of any specific research demonstrating that smaller boards are more effective than larger ones. The Department has followed the views and guidance of OCPA.

833. The information and documentation for the advertisement for the recruitment of board members will be crucial in ensuring that appointments are based on merit. The advertisement will need to specify the types of experience being sought. Criteria will be set for the recruitment of members and will ensure that all areas of required expertise are covered.

834. Mr D Bradley: I can see what lies behind the process, and that you will be able to attract suitable candidates through the advertisement. Would it be useful for a balance to be built into the process so that some of the interests that I mentioned earlier could be represented on the board?

835. Ms Mapstone: Getting a balance will be crucial. The Department does not want the board to comprise people with just one type of experience or who come from just one area. It wants the board to reflect broadly the population that will be served by a universal public library service. Care must be taken in drawing up the recruitment documentation so that the range of applicants will be wide.

836. Mr McCausland: To pick up on your use of the word “reflect”; the constitution of the current education and library boards does not oblige them to reflect the areas they serve, and in some cases, there has been great disparity in the appointments that have been made. The only two bodies that are bound, by legislation, to reflect Northern Ireland society in their appointments are the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission. If that is an example of good principle, and if the Department has endorsed the need for the new board to reflect the area it serves, is there value in considering whether to include provision in this legislation?

837. Ms Mapstone: We will give that matter further consideration.

838. Mr Brolly: I have a question about the composition of the new board, particularly as regards geography. At present, local councillors are members of each of the five education and library boards that represent their areas. Does the Department envisage that the new library board will include members from the new councils, however many there are? The Committee has asked previously how the Department intends the new library board to associate, and have a close relationship, with local authorities so that it does not become centralised. Of course, being a country fella, by that I mean Belfast-based.

839. Ms Mapstone: The authority will be a regional body with a single board, and it will be a challenge for that board to reflect local issues. In the interests of balance, how that will be done must be considered. It will be difficult to set up a board that reflects the interests of local areas within a single, regional body. The chief executive designate, Irene Knox, is concerned to ensure that local relevance is achieved in the delivery of the library service and is considering how to go about that.

840. Mr McCausland: If I were to sit on the library authority, and it were suggested that the library in Dromara should be closed and a new one opened in Drumnahunshin, I would not have a clue what to do, because I do not know those places. However, I would be able to make a decision on whether to transfer services from Skegoneill Avenue to the Shore Road. Local input is important. Later, the Committee will be discussing the subregional structure of the library authority. I am yet to be convinced that there will be good decision-making on local issues within a single library authority when, in practice, those on the board will know little about certain areas. If I were asked whether a library should be situated in Londonderry, Strabane or somewhere else in the west of the Province, I would not have an answer. How will that be dealt with?

841. Ms Mapstone: Something as significant as a library closure would require a great deal of interaction with local people. As members are aware, the Department requires the education and library boards to engage in lengthy consultations on any proposal to close a library.

842. Mr McCausland: However, the board of the single library authority, which would not have local knowledge, would make the ultimate decision.

843. Ms Mapstone: Yes; the final decision would be taken by the board, but it would have to ensure that it gained local knowledge.

844. The Chairperson: I agree with Mr McCausland that Strabane would be a suitable location for a new library.

845. Mr Brolly: You have used the phrase, “interaction with the local authorities”. How would that be written into the legislation? Who, from a local authority, would you interact with? If your face were set against having representatives from each local council on the new board, what type of structure could be set up that would allow you to have close contact and deal with situations such as those that Nelson McCausland mentioned.

846. Ms Mapstone: Much will depend on what emerges from the review of public administration. In particular, community-planning responsibilities will fall to the new councils, and we have had conversations with the Department of the Environment specifically on whether the responsibility of the library authority to interact, under those community-planning guidelines, should be put into legislation. We believe that it should not. The library authority would then be named in the relevant local government legislation as a body that would be part of those community-planning responsibilities. Until that arrangement is set up, the library authority must develop relationships at a local level, through its senior library staff.

847. The Chairperson: I would like Members to turn to general issues for the next 15 minutes. Paul Maskey, Kieran McCarthy and Wallace Browne will each ask a question, and I would ask Julie and her team to give a composite answer.

848. Mr P Maskey: Why is there is no provision in the Bill for secondments between the library authority and the education and skills authority or between the schools’ library service and the library authority? Why are secondments being limited to the Northern Ireland Civil Service? Will you consider broadening the opportunities for secondments?

849. Mr McCarthy: My question is about money and estimated savings. The majority of witnesses have been concerned about the predicted savings for the library authority in 2009-10 and 2010-11, and, in particular, the assumption that there will be savings through reducing the number of management-level staff. The boards have said that they do not have a large number of senior staff and that cutbacks in backroom staff have already been made. Witnesses have also pointed out that savings from redundancies are not normally realised until at least two years after they occur, and that corporate services will mean ongoing additional costs for the new authority.

850. In detail, and with supporting figures, how does the Department envisage making those savings? You may wish to provide a written answer to that important question.

851. Lord Browne: I return to my original theme — the link between the library authority and education services. Many people are concerned that, when the services are separated, the strong links and experience that has been built up will be put at risk. How does the Department intend to maintain those links? In addition, how will the new library authority deliver on the literacy and lifelong learning programme?

852. Ms Mapstone: There is already scope for secondments in the legislation. Paragraph 5(1)(b) of schedule 1 states that the library authority, including its chief executive, shall have: “such other employees as the Authority may determine.”

853. There is no insistence that those employees would come through direct recruitment — there could be secondments. Paragraph 8(1) of schedule 1, under the heading “Arrangements for assistance”, states:

“The Authority may make arrangements with such persons … as it considers appropriate for assistance to be provided to it.”

854. No attempt is being made to deny other types of secondments, particularly on the education side, with the schools’ library services. Secondment arrangements will apply to the library authority. Civil Service secondments are specified because they may not otherwise have been allowable, and there may be a need for a civil servant with specialist skills to implement financial systems or accounting procedures to work in the library authority. That is the only reason why that measure been included in the schedule.

855. Mr Sweeney: The financial effects of the Bill are, to some extent, set out in paragraph 13 of the explanatory and financial memorandum, which estimates savings of £600,000 in 2009-10, rising to £1·2 million in 2010-11, under the review of public administration. Some of those savings are contingent on when the new library authority goes live. The figures were predicated on the body’s going live on 1 April 2008, so the actual starting date will have some effect.

856. Corporate services are dealt with in paragraph 14 of the explanatory and financial memorandum. That is important, and the Department has made Deloitte’s work available to the Committee. At present, it costs almost £1 million to deliver corporate services to the five education and library boards. That money comes from the five education and library boards, but, as the new library authority will be a stand-alone body, that indirect cost must be identified and factored in. Deloitte’s work was useful because it quantified that cost. I needed to know the current hidden cost. Deloitte said that it was £956,000, which I will round up to £1 million for the sake of this discussion. Therefore, I know that I will have to find around £1 million. Taking guidance from the chief executive designate, we will have to find the most cost-effective way in which to deliver the corporate services that are currently being delivered through the five boards. If the Chairperson approves, perhaps the Department could provide the Committee with a succinct couple of pages outlining the ramifications of the Deloitte study.

857. The Chairperson: The Committee would welcome that.

858. Ms Mapstone: The Department of Education and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure keep in regular contact on issues relating to the creation of the two new bodies and the development of a common approach to staff-transfer issues between the education and skills authority and the library authority. Contact is maintained using implementation teams from both bodies. That will ensure that staff who are currently employed in the education and library boards have the same cover when they transfer to the two new bodies.

859. We have been asked about the continuation of relationships — there is a strong historical connection between the public library service and the education service. For example, library assistants deliver initiatives such as Bookstart, which is a literacy programme, to preschool children. Library staff are involved in primary-school visits that demonstrate the library’s value to young children through storytelling sessions and other initiatives. We will ensure that that service continues, and it can include any sort of partnership arrangement. Service level agreements could be developed between the education and skills authority and the library authority. A great deal of debate is ongoing between the two sides, and that will continue.

860. The Chairperson: Several witnesses have expressed concerns about the assumption that a reduction in managerial staff will result in savings. Will you comment on that? Some people have said that the education and library boards do not have a large number of staff at senior level and that the number of back room staff has already been reduced. Is that the case?

861. Ms Mapstone: Yes. Some education and library boards have been quite successful in reducing their staff numbers. Streamlining is involved when combining five library services into one, and we expect that that will have an impact on the Library Service headquarters and its administrative staff. The specific costings associated with that streamlining are based on the assumption that there will be efficiencies in combining five library services into one.

862. The Chairperson: We shall move to general issues.

863. Mr D Bradley: We have already covered a few of the general issues. There have been concerns raised about the location of the library authority’s headquarters. Has a decision been made about its location and, if not, when will it be made? What will the Department take into consideration when making its decision? Also, where will the library authority’s temporary premises be located? Finally, what steps have been taken to ensure that reference materials and archives will be protected by the new library authority? The Chairperson knows that the Irish and Local Studies Library in Armagh is at the forefront of my mind when I ask that question.

864. The Chairperson: And why would it not be?

865. Ms Mapstone: The chief executive designate and her immediate support team are based in Belfast, pro tem. However, in November 2007 they will move to temporary premises in the centre of Lisburn. Nothing has been determined about a permanent location for the library authority’s headquarters. We are waiting for final advice to emerge on the relocation of public-sector jobs and the extent to which that will direct us. We also need to consider the library authority’s location in the light of decisions that will be made about the location of the new bodies that will be formed as a result of the review of public administration. As there may be a timing issue, we may need to make our decision first. At present, I cannot tell you anything about the longer-term location of the new authority. Nevertheless, it will be the subject of consultation and an equality impact assessment.

866. Mr Sweeney: The actual model through which the new library authority will be delivered has yet to be determined. The critical issue will be in ensuring that we achieve business continuity. I do not envisage a situation whereby the new body will have huge headquarters — it will be a small, lean group. Perhaps, later on, we will talk about exploiting the subregional structure. The notion of a headquarters — with hundreds of people being consolidated into one geographical space — is not one that has entered into my business plan or processes at this stage.

867. It will be the new board’s responsibility to bring proposals to the Minister. The Minister will operate within statutory and Public Service Commission guidelines on the location of public-sector jobs. I do not want to leave the Committee with the impression that several hundred people might be located in one place. Rather, a small group will probably be housed. We will have to identify — using all available guidelines — the most cost-effective location.

868. The Chairperson: I recall the Minister making the same point.

869. Mr McCarthy: Dominic has pre-empted my question. I invite you to find a suitable site on the Ards Peninsula, which is absolutely beautiful. We could fit you in there, just fine.

870. Mr McCausland: Or a caravan site in Ballywalter.

871. Mr McCarthy: Some witnesses have suggested that a separate advisory council should be set up to provide specialist advice to the library authority. Has the Department considered that option? What would the Department see as being the pros and cons of having such an advisory body?

872. Ms Mapstone: The Department has considered the matter. A separate statutory advisory body would involve considerable expense, and would be an extra statutory body in a situation where similar bodies are being streamlined.

873. Such an advisory body also carries certain disadvantages. As a standing body, there would be recurrent costs for a function that may not be needed frequently. It would also be static, in that it would not necessarily be a repository of good practice in library services.

874. We accept that the library authority will need access and recourse to advice, but there are existing relationships, networks and bodies to provide that advice. The authority will have access to the work of the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council, which undertakes research in library studies and makes that research public. As a separate, dedicated body, the library authority will be in good position to develop strong networks with public library services across the water and in the South, and with professional associations such as the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals and the Association of Chief Librarians.

875. Once good networks are established, all sorts of benefits spin off from them, such as systems of peer-review, and joint activity to examine certain aspects. On an ad hoc basis, anything that has worked elsewhere, or anything that might be causing a problem might be discussed within those networks. That is a much more dynamic picture; and that arrangement is more likely to offer the library authority advice that is current and reflects current good practice.

876. Mr Brolly: I will follow up on Paul’s point. Various people who submitted representations to the Committee were worried that the library authority would be placed in an ivory tower somewhere, and that it would be distant. That is why the Committee is concentrating on the local impact of a central library authority. May I suggest a location for it? Mid Ulster would be grand; and there is nothing wrong with East Derry either.

877. Mr McCarthy: That is too far away.

878. Mr Brolly: Toomebridge.

879. The Chairperson: No questions have been asked. [Laughter.]

880. Mr McCausland: What does Ms Mapstone think might be the role of local government in any subregional structure? Should the Bill not refer to the subregional structure of the library authority?

881. Ms Mapstone: The Department sees the subregional structure as an operational matter and one that should not necessarily be reflected in the legislation. The issue is about how the library authority will operate at the local level, and that is still under consideration by the chief executive designate. She regards it as an important matter. The Department accepts that delivering local relevance is of key significance, but the issue is about how the library authority will operate in a practical way at ground level.

882. Mr McCausland: Will the incoming chief executive have that matter worked up in the next couple of months?

883. Ms Mapstone: I know that she is proposing to do that, as far as possible.

884. Mr McCausland: That was one of the issues that the Committee took into account when it asked for an extension of the Committee Stage. There was uncertainty, and that element was thrown in at a late stage. There had been no mention of it before then.

885. How many staff would be in a central executive administrative team? I know that they will be lean and fit.

886. Mr Sweeney: I can answer that question only at a very high level. My discussions with the chief executive designate have been predicated on having a very small executive team that might comprise the chief executive, a directorate team — a handful of people or less — and some support or administrative staff. Please do not hold me to that model.

887. The principle is to exploit all of the talent that exists throughout the library network in Northern Ireland, and to ensure that the headquarters’ core function will be to support and empower that network, rather than becoming some sort of ivory tower. As yet, we have not submitted a business model to the Minister, but the impulse in the Department has been to predicate it on the idea of having a small, multidisciplinary executive team.

888. Mr McCausland: There is no national library in Northern Ireland. Therefore, unless one travels to Scotland, Dublin or London, one cannot get access to the wealth of material that is important for the development of some of the cultural life in Northern Ireland. Should the legislation not make it the responsibility of the library authority to ensure that there is a collection of all the relevant material about Northern Ireland, and what I would term the Ulster diaspora? I am not saying that there should be a national library collecting everything under the sun.

889. Individual libraries in Northern Ireland will have books about local villages or the history of some organisations, and so on. However, one cannot get access to material about people from Ulster who have travelled around the world and who have made their mark in various areas of life. I have found several examples of where one has to go to the British Library to find information about people from Northern Ireland. It is bizarre that the material is not available in places such as Omagh, Belfast Central Library, or the Linen Hall Library.

890. No one can get access to the material because no one knows that it exists, unless, like me, they are weirdoes or sad people who go on holiday in order to search for that sort of material. Can a provision be included in the legislation to pick up on the idea of having a collection of material that is relevant to Ulster and the Ulster diaspora? If I travel to Dublin, I can get easy access to material about any place in Ireland. There is a gap to be filled.

891. The Chairperson: I presume that that point can be absorbed, because it does not really have a legislative base.

892. Mr McCausland: It could be included as a responsibility of the library authority.

893. Ms Mapstone: We will consider it.

894. Mr McCausland: OK, that is fine.

895. The Chairperson: My question concerns the tenure of the chairperson of the new library authority. NIPSA expressed the view that the legislation should specify that the chairperson of the new board should be permitted to serve a maximum of only two terms. Have you any views on that?

896. Ms Mapstone: We agree. However, it does not necessarily belong in the legislation but rather in the terms of appointment and the operating rules of the board.

897. Mr Brolly: I am worried about operational issues not being included in the Bill. Obviously, coming from a rural area, I am worried about the library service not providing a comprehensive service across a wide geographical area. I do not accept that the matter should be left to the operation of the library authority when it is established. It should be written into the legislation that there should be contact and interaction with local authorities, and how that could be managed and achieved.

898. Ms Mapstone: We will consider that point. As I said, the Minister wants to consider board membership issues. The difficulty with putting operational matters into legislation is that the legislation would become huge and would start to limit the new authority’s freedom and flexibility, and it would make it more difficult for the authority to deliver the best possible service. Therefore, it is a question of selecting the key operational issues that are required.

899. Mr Brolly: This reflects again on one of the earlier questions about having comprehensive and efficient provisions. To me, the word “comprehensive” refers not only to material but also to a wide geographical spread. It is important that that should be included somewhere in the Bill. I am not insisting on there being representation on the board, but geographical spread should be written into the legislation in a viable way.

900. The Chairperson: I thank the team from the Department; Julie Mapstone and Noel Kelly; and, of course, Paul Sweeney the permanent secretary for attending the Committee. We look forward to reading and rereading the Hansard report.

901. The Committee intends to write to the Department about issues that were not completely covered this morning, such as start-up costs, around which there are several issues to be clarified.

902. Thank you all for coming.

11 October 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

903. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): This section of the meeting will comprise a review of the evidence collected to date on the Libraries Bill, with the aim of the Committee’s coming to an agreement on the position that it intends to take on various clauses when Minister Edwin Poots gives evidence at next week’s meeting.

904. Independent legal advice, relating to staff transfers in schedule 2 to the Libraries Bill, was mentioned at the Committee meeting on 27 September. The Committee Clerk raised the issue informally with the Director of Legal Services. She advised the director that at the meeting on 4 October, an official from the departmental solicitor’s office (DSO) said that in light of NIPSA’s proposed amendments, he was prepared to review again the provision in schedule 2 to the Bill. The official said also that it would be helpful if he could have sight of the full legal opinion that NIPSA had received from senior counsel.

905. The Committee agreed to ask NIPSA to make available a copy of the legal opinion, which, when received, will be forwarded to the Department for onward transmission to the DSO official. When the DSO official has communicated final views on the matter, the Committee will be better placed to decide what — if any — legal advice is required from Assembly Legal Services on the interpretation of schedule 2.

906. The Committee Clerk: This morning, I received from NIPSA the letter from Frank O’Donoghue QC. The letter provides all the evidence that NIPSA referred to when it gave evidence to the Committee.

907. Mr McNarry: I welcome the fact that we have Frank O’Donoghue’s letter, because we can now look at it in conjunction with the evidence that we received from NIPSA. However, why we are giving it to the Department is slightly beyond me. Why are we doing the Department’s work? I seem to recall two things — although I need to be sure that my recollection is correct, so if it is wrong someone can pull me up on that. First, the legal gentleman who came to the Committee — and whose name eludes me — said that he had not had any discussions on the legal side of the situation.

908. However, he was quite adamant that he was right and everyone else was wrong. Despite not having had any meetings with him, he said also that he understood that Mr O’Donoghue had altered his opinion somewhat since drafting the letter to his clients. The letter from Mr O’Donoghue to NIPSA’s solicitors is dated 2 February. We need to know whether Mr O’Donoghue’s opinion has altered, because we have a legal man telling us in an evidence session that he understands — and we have to take people on trust — that it has altered. He was not able to substantiate that assertion, but it is now in the mix.

909. Therefore, if Mr O’Donoghue’s opinion has altered, how crucial is that to the Committee? In other words, is it wise or safe for us to consider the opinion that the Committee was given as being the endgame? Do we need to check whether Mr O’Donoghue has altered his opinion? On the basis of what he had heard and understood, the legal man did not give any indication that Mr O’Donoghue was either more right than he was or less wrong than he was. The situation is too grey for me.

910. The Principal Committee Clerk: Certainly, we will check straight away whether there have been any changes to the document containing Mr O’Donoghue’s opinion. If there have not been any changes, a reasonable way forward would be to present the advice to the departmental solicitor’s office. Given that DSO commissioned the legislation, it is right to give its officials the opportunity to comment on it.

911. If there have been any changes, either we will inform the departmental solicitor’s office or we will ask the Department to inform the departmental solicitor’s office. Only when the departmental solicitor’s office responds will we be in a position to ask our legal advisers whether they are content with any dispute that has arisen between the two parties. We will check out fully whether any changes or amendments have been made to the document.

912. The Chairperson: It is my understanding that the document has not been altered. The name of the official from the departmental solicitor’s office is Mr Noel Kelly, but that will also be checked.

913. Mr McNarry: That information was recorded in a previous Hansard report. Until we have that information, we cannot consider the issue properly. If the Committee finds that it needs independent legal opinion, whom would it approach? Would we approach the same people who are providing the Department with legal advice or would we look elsewhere? Can we look elsewhere, because that seems to be the direction in which we are heading?

914. Mr Bradley: On page 10 of the document at tab 4, there is a report of Mr Kelly’s evidence. He said that: “There are two differing legal opinions, and I am fully prepared to reconsider the issue.”

915. The Chairperson: He is prepared to reconsider the issue?

916. Mr Bradley: Yes. He says also: “I will reconsider each of the issues that have been raised.”

917. Mr McNarry: Dominic is right. I cannot see any movement for the minds of Frank O’Donoghue and Mr Kelly to meet.

918. Mr Bradley: At that stage, he says also: “The opinion of Frank O’Donoghue QC has not been disclosed to me, but John Corey has indicated what he said.”

919. That reflects accurately what Mr Kelly said last week — that he was prepared to reconsider the issue and that he had respect for Mr O’Donoghue’s views.

920. Mr Shannon: If the Committee refers the matter to the legal advisers for consideration, will their opinion come back to the Committee?

921. The Chairperson: Yes.

922. Mr Shannon: I wanted to ensure that that would happen.

923. The Principal Committee Clerk: Frank O’Donoghue’s advice will be copied to the Department, which will forward it to the departmental solicitor’s office. DSO will respond by stating whether or not it agrees with the advice and by giving reasons if it does not agree. That opinion will come back to the Committee. At that point, the Committee will be free to take further, independent legal advice on any outstanding issues by liaising with the Assembly’s in-house Director of Legal Services. Therefore, if required, the Committee has access to independent legal advice.

924. Mr McNarry: As a final word on that matter, I am uncomfortable with the Committee’s copying Mr O’Donoghue’s letter of advice to the Department. The Department should get its own copy. If it is prepared to consider the advice, why do its officials not get off their backsides and ask for it? I would vote against the Committee’s sending Frank O’Donoghue’s letter to the Department. Let the Department go its own way and get its own advice. By sending our advice to the Department, the Committee will be sucked into a situation in which it has both asked for and supplied evidence. It is not a clean process.

925. Mr D Bradley: If the Committee disagrees with Mr Kelly and has access to another opinion, it would be churlish not to pass that on. NIPSA is Mr O’Donaghue’s client; therefore, the Committee might be the only conduit that is capable of supplying Mr Kelly with the information that he needs.

926. Mr McNarry: In that case, we should ascertain whether NIPSA is happy for us to pass on a document that it submitted to the Committee.

927. The Chairperson: We have that understanding from NIPSA. However, if David wishes to record his dissatisfaction with the notion of forwarding —

928. Mr McNarry: I am dissatisfied, and I want to make that clear.

929. The Chairperson: Members should now give their attention to the web article, which was sent to the Committee by Ms Julie Mapstone, who works for the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. Ms Mapstone has highlighted paragraph 3, which states that libraries: “more than doubled their book spend for the second year running”.

930. Mr McCausland: The article suggests that things are wonderful; however, the background is that over the past few years, the amount of money given to libraries has remained unchanged, increased slightly or, in some cases, decreased. In certain years, because it could not get money from anywhere else, the Library Service took money from the book fund in order to spend it on buildings and staff. Staff levels have been cut to the bone; therefore, there is a little bit of extra money for books. The sentiment of the article is disappointing — it is spin of the highest order. Total library expenditure has certainly not gone up.

931. However, there is no point in fighting with anyone about library spend — no one would listen.

932. The Chairperson: You have vented your spleen on the matter.

933. Members should now refer to the chief executive designate’s reply to the Committee’s request for an update on staff recruitment and the notion of developing a sub-regional structure for the new library authority.

934. Mr McCausland: The letter states that the proposed sub-regional structure would, in practice, equate to having an area manager. The person who was to fulfil that role would go to any local community-planning meetings.

935. The Chairperson: That can be noted for now.

936. Mr McNarry: I have a comment to make — I am sorry if I sound like I got out of the wrong side of bed this morning, but my day was going well until I arrived here.

937. Mr Shannon: I thought that that was every morning, David.

938. Mr Brolly: His bed only has one side.

939. Mr McCausland: David’s bed has two wrong sides.

940. Mr McNarry: To get out of the other side, I would have to climb over the wife. [Laughter.]

941. I cannot believe that a body that does not deserve the title “designate”, has now got a fancy title, which is the Northern Ireland library authority implementation team. It has an office and so on, and the chief executive designate has written to the Committee. I cannot believe that recruitment is being carried out for that body.

942. The Chairperson: It is also setting up a temporary headquarters.

943. Mr McNarry: This will come back and bite us; and that is crap.

944. The Chairperson: Your views have been well noted. You have made them known on more than one occasion.

945. Members should know that we will be having a working meeting with the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure next week. It was thought originally that there would be time for the Assembly Research and Library Service to brief the Committee on its background paper on the Bill, which was provided to members during the meeting of 13 September 2007. I draw members’ attention to that.

946. However, given that we are also receiving a briefing next week from the Department on the budget process, there may not be sufficient time to allocate 30 minutes for a presentation on the background paper. Do members wish to receive a briefing on the background paper at another time?

Members indicated assent.

947. The Chairperson: I want to draw members’ attention to the issues that have been raised by witnesses and the Committee during the course of the evidence sessions, along with the response from the Department, which we heard last week. I remind members that the Committee needs to agree its position on each of those issues and decide whether we want to attempt to persuade the Minister to make amendments to the Bill. It was great to discover that, sometimes, Committees can persuade Ministers to make amendments on their behalf before Bills go to the House.

948. It is best to discuss each issue systematically. I want to examine clause 2 of the Bill — “Duty of Authority to provide library service”. If we cannot add value, and if we are content, we will move on. The Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals was concerned that the term “comprehensive and efficient” is not included in clause 2. It also suggested that the clause should make reference to the standards set out in the document ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’.

949. Last week, departmental officials said that if standards were included in legislation, the Department would have to go through the whole legislative process in order to upgrade or amend them. The officials said that using the term “comprehensive and efficient” would not be particularly meaningful, and that it has set out what it means by “a comprehensive service” in clause 2(2)(a). However, the officials also said that they would be prepared to reconsider the issue.

950. I draw members’ attention to the memo from Julie Mapstone, which reinforces the points that she made at the evidence session. The memo states that:

951. “It was considered inappropriate to legislate for efficiency. The service will be measured via the standards set out in Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries and through additional targets which may be set from time to time,”

952. It seems reasonable not to include standards in legislation, as they can change with time. For example, on a different subject, charges for fishing licences are not included in primary legislation because they change through time and are, therefore, dealt with under secondary legislation.

953. Are members content with the Department’s position on that issue? Do members want to ask the Minister to include the phrase “comprehensive and efficient”, or to specify standards in clause 2? That would run contrary to the advice from the Department. Do members wish to further question the Minister on this clause?

954. Mr McNarry: There was good reason for the term “comprehensive and efficient” to be included in the Bill, mainly because we are the legislators; we will not write the Bill, but we, or whoever follows us, will be the fall guys for anything that goes wrong.

955. If one is to believe the leaks that are coming from another Committee, which deals with water, the amazing figure of 40% efficiency savings will be used as a means to pay for that Department’s proposals. An efficiency saving of 40% seems to be immense, and if you were to ask the electorate, their major criticism would be focused on the efficiency of the system and the civil servants and people who service the Assembly. I am keen to keep the word “efficient” in the Bill because if we take a backward step on efficiency, we will slide.

956. Mr Brolly: People referred to operational matters outside the legislation, and that should have been raised at the time. I have made the point about whether the new library authority should be an institution or an operation. Fundamentally, we want a library operation. We have all expressed concern that the proposed centralised library authority might live in an ivory tower and that it would be clinical, losing touch with the people who most need the service. Operational matters should definitely be part of the legislation. The absence of the words “comprehensive and efficient” from the legislation cannot be used as an excuse for operational matters not being covered.

957. The Chairperson: From time to time, the Department advises the Committee that certain matters will be covered in the rules of operation. David McNarry and Francie Brolly want “comprehensive and efficient” written into the legislation.

958. Mr McCausland: I support that.

959. My other point is on the suggestion that the standards that are set out in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ should be drafted into the Bill. I accept that the legislation would have to be changed to reflect basics, such as targets. Is there a halfway house that allows a mechanism for the Assembly to have influence over standards so that they cannot be arbitrarily changed by the library authority, without its taking the Assembly’s views into account?

960. Mr D Bradley: In its response, the Department said: “Having to legislate for efficiency is a little strange, because one would expect that to be monitored anyway.”

961. Are there any indications of how efficiency will be monitored? The Committee needs to know the answer to that.

962. The Chairperson: The Department said that it will judge efficiency against the standards set out in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ and through additional targets, which may be set from time to time. That is not a firm answer. Do you have a question for the Minister?

963. Mr D Bradley: How will efficiency be monitored, and by whom? Education, for example, is monitored by the Education and Training Inspectorate, which is independent from the Department of Education. That can give an objective view of what is happening in schools and colleges.

964. The Chairperson: Does that inspectorate have any jurisdiction over Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure matters?

965. Mr D Bradley: Only in as far as that a school library can be assessed as part of a school inspection. The inspectorate can assess the range of books available, how often the library is used by pupils and how well it supports learning in the school.

966. Mr McCausland: My question for the Minister is: is there some way of having influence over changes that might be made to the standards? Dominic Bradley’s point is about how the standards will be measured.

967. Mr D Bradley: My question is: how will the standards monitored and by whom?

968. The Chairperson: Those questions will inform the Committee’s approach to its engagement with the Minister next week. Are we happy to move on to clause 3?

969. Mr McNarry: As we are going through the Bill line by line, can I ask you to re-cap what we are happy with when we decide that we are happy with it?

970. The Chairperson: I will do that: we will ask the Department to include the words “comprehensive and efficient” in the Bill; and Committee staff will capture the spirit of the questions that we are raising today to ensure that we ask them of the Minister next week. Do members agree that we want the term “comprehensive and efficient” to be included in the Bill?

Members indicated assent.

971. The Chairperson: NIPSA was concerned that clause 3 might not allow the library authority to co-operate with other bodies. Last week, the Department said that the legislation allows the library authority to make partnership arrangements as it sees fit; NIPSA disagreed. In response to a question raised by Nelson, the Department said that independent libraries, like the Linen Hall Library, would still be able to apply to the Department for funding. I refer to Julie Mapstone’s memo. She explained that clause 2(3) of the Bill gives the library authority the power to co-operate with other bodies and to develop partnership arrangements. That includes the Linen Hall Library. For information, that library is a private subscription library, which operates under a scheme framed under the Educational Endowments (Ireland) Act 1885, a very archaic piece of legislation.

972. Mr McCausland: It is an archaic place.

973. The Chairperson: Clause 8 gives the Department power to continue paying grants for library services provided outside the library authority. That would include the Linen Hall Library.

974. Mr McCausland: That is fine.

975. The Chairperson: Are any members of the Committee collectors for the Linen Hall Library? I know some people who collect for it; Councillor Tom Hartley does.

976. Mr McCausland: He has made a collection for it; a very large and sad collection.

977. The Chairperson: Are members content with Department’s position on the issue? Do members wish to ask the Minister to amend the clause or are they happy to move on. I see that members are happy to move on.

978. Clause 4 gives libraries the power of authority to undertake commercial activities. The Chartered Institute of Library Professionals was concerned that clause 4 implies that libraries will be judged on their commercial success. Last week, the Department said that this provision is included in the current legislation and that it is not a new thing. It explained that it allowed the libraries to sell local books or to run coffee shops. The Department confirmed that the performance of libraries will not be measured by reference to their commercial activities. That seems a reasonable explanation.

979. Are members content with the Department’s position on this issue?

Members indicated assent.

980. The Chairperson: Clause 6 refers to charges for certain library services. All the witnesses were concerned that clause 6 does not guarantee free core library services. Some suggested that core services should be defined in the clause. In relation to clause 6(2), NIPSA was concerned that there was scope for discrimination if different people were charged different costs, depending on their locality or circumstances. I remember that you posed that question, Dominic.

981. Mr D Bradley: Yes.

982. The Chairperson: Last week, the Department said that the legislation was intended to simplify the existing statutory provision for charging. It pointed to the explanatory and financial memorandum of the Bill, which states that core services will remain free of charge. The Department said that it would consider amending the clause and asked the Committee to suggest proposed wording. I refer members to an extract from the current legislation, which deals with charging for library services. It specifies where charges can be made. The Department’s proposed legislation turns that around, specifying where charges cannot be made.

983. Do any members wish to propose alternative wording or a different approach?

984. Mr McCarthy: My recollection is that all the witnesses thought that the wording was not strong enough, and even the Department’s officials appeared to agree with that. I do not have alternative wording. However, if any other member has a strong wording, he should suggest it.

985. The Chairperson: You want it specified in the Bill that “core services shall be free.”

986. Mr McCarthy: Absolutely. No messing about.

987. The Chairperson: Yes, Kieran, you have quizzed every witness on that point.

988. Mr McCausland: The best form of words was produced by the witness from the Chartered Institute of Library Professionals.

989. The Chairperson: We will have look at that evidence and form of words in order to incorporate Kieran’s sentiment. Are members agreed that we take that approach?

Members indicated assent.

990. The Chairperson: The Department offered an explanation for different charges for different persons’ circumstances and localities. The Department said that that reflects current practice, whereby, for example, senior citizens and children do not pay fines, whereas adults do. However, the Department could not provide an explanation for why people in different localities would be charged differently. The Department agreed to come back to the Committee on that matter.

991. I refer Members to the memo from Julie Mapstone. Julie explains that in respect of locality, some public libraries have rooms that are let to the community for meetings and events, charges may differ depending on the size of the room, the demand in a particular area and whether the users are from commercial or voluntary bodies.

992. Mr D Bradley: Should a regional library authority not have regional charges?

993. Mr McCausland: In Belfast, a library in, for example, Ligoniel would charge a different rate for the hiring of a room than would Belfast Central Library, which could charge more because of its city-centre location, and the increased value added by that location. Therefore, flexibility is important.

994. Mr D Bradley: New ageism legislation may be relevant in regard to not charging fines for children and senior citizens. For example, the Southern Regional College has increased its fees because it is not allowed to charge pensioners less except on the basis of the benefits that they are in receipt of. Given that that legislation applies to the Southern Regional College, would that not also be applicable in this instance?

995. The Chairperson: That is a good question which will be recorded and put to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure during next weeks’ meeting.

996. Mr Shannon: To elaborate on Dominic’s point, it would be wise to have a Province-wide charging system. Nelson’s point is valid: hiring a small room or a large room will incur different charges. Is there a way to implement a Province-wide charging system that is in proportion to the size of the rooms that are to be hired? Is there the scope for a system that would be the same whether in Londonderry, Newry, Strabane or Newtownards? Charges must be similar across the Province.

997. The Chairperson: Do you take Nelson’s point about charging differently for rooms in Belfast?

998. Mr Shannon: Yes.

999. Mr McCausland: The rental of an office in Belfast city centre is more expensive per square foot than in somewhere such as Ballysillan. There must be flexibility because otherwise money may be lost.

1000. The Chairperson: Do you accept that, Jim?

1001. Mr Shannon: That puts a different light on the matter. The situation in the centre of Belfast will be different to that in Ballywalter.

1002. Mr Maskey: It is a difficult issue. The charge could not be calculated per square foot because that could not be written into legislation. A library should set out standard charges from an early stage. However, those charges would go up on a yearly basis; therefore a certain degree of flexibility should be included.

1003. Mr McCausland: There is the competition factor: if someone wants to rent public space in a library in Belfast city centre, he or she has the choice of the Linen Hall Library or Belfast Central Library, and there will be competition between those two for certain events. The money will go back into the library, so its users will benefit, and it is not in the libraries’ interest to charge themselves out of the market, so librarians should be trusted in that regard.

1004. Mr Shannon: It may be possible to put like with like: similar charges for a library in Strabane and a library in Newtownards would make sense; it would not make sense to charge the same for a library in Belfast and one in Ballywalter — where there is no library, of course. A library in the centre of Belfast could not be compared with a library in Newtownards or in Strabane.

1005. Mr D Bradley: Are there plans for a library in Ballywalter?

1006. Mr Shannon: Not that I am aware of.

1007. The Chairperson: Do you want it written into the legislation that there should be a library in Ballywalter?

1008. Mr Shannon: No, I will not make that claim.

1009. The Chairperson: If there are no issues regarding the different wording then we will move on, however, questions will put to the Minister next week.

1010. Schedule 1 to the Libraries Bill concerns membership of the library authority. The majority of witnesses agreed that a board of between seven and 14 members was too small. Witnesses were concerned that the Libraries Bill did not require elected representatives or unions to be represented, or to be on the board, and that geographical representation was not assured.

1011. Last week, the Department said that the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments has a tendency to recommend smaller boards, which is advice that the Department is following. The Department explained that the library authority will not need many subcommittees. However, it said that the Minister is prepared to reconsider the number of board members. Does the Committee feel that there should be more board members than the current provision of between seven and 14?

1012. Lord Browne: Although the board should be kept small, the suggested number of members is too small. I recommend approximately 20 members, but do not recommend expanding the numbers much more; otherwise, they would affect effective efficiency.

1013. Mr K Robinson: I agree with that. I have been a member of an education and library board, like yourself, and know the subcommittees that are set up, which put quite a strain on members, particularly if they are trying to cover a wide geographical area or, as in this case, a sub-regional area. I agree with Wallace’s recommendation of roughly 20. I feel strongly that elected representatives and union representatives should be on the board. I am worried about “the great and the good” from the public appointments point of view, but the number of those people available must be running out.

1014. The Chairperson: Maybe some of those people are on several bodies.

1015. Mr D Bradley: At last week’s Committee meeting, when I asked Ms Mapstone whether she had any evidence that smaller boards were more effective and efficient, she said that there was no evidence to that effect.

1016. Mr McCarthy: I support what Wallace said; the board should be a bit bigger because, as members know, it is difficult to get a quorum in any situation. Also, elected representatives should be on the board.

1017. Mr McNarry: What category of elected representatives do Committee members mean?

1018. Mr K Robinson: I meant elected representatives at council level, including those from the new councils in whatever form that they take. I certainly did not mean folk from this august Assembly.

1019. The Chairperson: We are talking about members of local government authorities.

1020. Mr McNarry: I thought that that was what was meant. Any changes to local government through RPA must be considered.

1021. Mr McCausland: I am fully supportive of that proposal. If a 20-member board is opted for, how many members from local authorities should there be, and how would they be selected?

1022. Mr K Robinson: That issue was touched on before, and we thought that a body such as Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA) could co-ordinate the selection process.

1023. The Chairperson: The Committee will conclude on the matter in a second. Ken, will you think about formally wording an insert for the Bill about elected representatives and unions representatives being on the board?

1024. The Department said that advertisement and criteria for board members would ensure that appointments were based on merit, and would specify the experience required. The Department also said that it will try to attract applications from a wide range of people. The Committee has suggested that the Department includes a clause, which states that the board must be totally reflective of society, as is the case in the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission. The Department said that it would consider that.

1025. Does the Committee want the requirement that the board reflects the composition of society to be written into the Bill? Also, does the Committee want the requirement of elected representative and union representation on the board to be expressly included in the Bill?

1026. Mr K Robinson: I support a requirement for elected representatives and union representatives to be on the board. I have a difficulty with what constitutes being reflective of society; sometimes I see bodies that certainly do not represent society in my area.

1027. Mr McCausland: I favour the idea of the board being reflective of society. The problem is that these boards take reflective to mean getting representatives from east and west of the Bann, who are protestant and catholic, and are male and female, and leave it at that.

1028. Mr K Robinson: It finishes up as a strange box.

1029. Mr McCausland: As the composition of these bodies is usually made up of “the great and the good”, the east-of-the-Bann representation tends to solely consist of people who live in North Down. Given the cultural nature of this body — the cultural importance of libraries has been stressed — it should reflect the cultural diversity of Northern Ireland, and not end up filled with middle-class and upper-middle-class Anglo-Irish types from North Down.

1030. The Chairperson: Could you be clearer? [Laughter.]

1031. Mr D Bradley: Would you like to name those people?

1032. The Chairperson: Is this Committee a North-Down-MLA free zone? [Laughter.]

1033. Mr McNarry: Sometimes, where I live is included in North Down.

1034. Mr McCausland: That is because you are a snob. [Laughter.]

1035. The Chairperson: Do you speak for Peter Weir on the matter?

1036. Mr McNarry: Yes. [Laughter.]

1037. Mr McCausland: He attempts to speak for Peter Weir.

1038. Mr D Bradley: All areas will be represented, except North Down.

1039. Mr McCausland: Precisely; all areas will be represented, except North Down.

1040. The Chairperson: We are agreed on the need for elected representative and union representation on the board. We will have to consider further whether the clause should include reference to the fact that the board must be fully reflective of society.

1041. Mr Shannon: That would obviously include rural areas. Nelson’s point is very valid, and many of the representatives of the boards made that point when they appeared before the Committee. Those of us who represent rural areas are very conscious of that as well. It is important that the rural community is not forgotten about to the advantage of urban dwellers. I mean no offence to those who live in urban areas, but it is important that we ensure that there is a balance.

1042. Mr K Robinson: In particular, the Southern Education and Library Board seemed to be very fearful of that happening, and I can understand its concerns.

1043. The Chairperson: Of course, the Western Education and Library Board would cover a very rural area, too.

1044. Mr McNarry: I have a suggestion that I feel would be useful, and I wonder whether the Committee would agree. Could there be some form of user representation on the new board? Many such boards do not have any user representation.

1045. Mr McCausland: Any councillor who would sit on it would be a user.

1046. Mr McNarry: That may be so, but I am thinking in particular of the elderly, who frequently use libraries. It would be nice for them to have a voice.

1047. Mr D Bradley: The Committee may recall that, some time ago, I asked whether there was any representative body for library users. I believe that the Committee Clerk reported back that there was not. Therefore, that might create a difficulty.

1048. The Chairperson: Were you surprised that there was no such body?

1049. Mr D Bradley: Yes, I was. I thought that there would have been a group that represented readers and library users.

1050. Mr Brolly: Could the new library authority consider setting up such a group? That would be useful to the authority for the purposes of consultation — it could consult the group on issues — and for the purposes of information-gathering.

1051. Mr McNarry: That would be very useful.

1052. Mr McCausland: The number of people who actually attend meetings of consultative panels is small. For example, we have such a panel in Belfast, and although over 40 people may be invited to attend a panel meeting, we are lucky if four turn up.

1053. The Chairperson: There needs to be emphasis on getting feedback from users in some way or another.

1054. Mr McNarry: Such a group would provide a means of channelling users’ complaints and requests. As elected representatives, we hear from users that their local library service does not supply such and such. It would be better if there were a voice to represent those views. I take Dominic’s point, but it would be better if such a voice could be found.

1055. Mr McCausland: I know that this is an operational matter, but one approach might be for the library authority or local library service to hold meetings with users in a given area twice a year. The readers could be invited to attend that meeting when they come in to borrow their books. That situation would be easy to manage.

1056. The Chairperson: I feel that if departmental officials were present, they would suggest that that be put in the explanatory and financial memorandum, where the rules of operation are listed. It would not be linked to —

1057. Mr McCausland: I am not suggesting that for a moment.

1058. Mr McNarry: My constituency office is beside Newtownards Library, and we get a lot of people coming in —

1059. Mr Shannon: Looking for books. [Laughter.]

1060. The Chairperson: You hear people’s views.

1061. Mr McNarry: They are looking for the truth.

1062. The Chairperson: That is valuable.

1063. Let us move on to paragraph 1 of schedule 3, which refers to “Tenure of office.” NIPSA stated that the chair of the board should only be allowed to hold that office for a maximum of two terms. Last week, the Department said that it agreed with that. However, it feels that the matter should not necessarily be included in the legislation; rather it believes that it should be included under the rules of operation for the board. Is that adequate?

1064. Mr McCausland: Will the library authority draw up its own rules of operation or will the Department draw up those rules?

1065. The Chairperson: We will have to record that question. It is another query about who will do what.

1066. Members will note that paragraph 6 of schedule 1 to the Bill deals with secondments. NIPSA was concerned that the legislation might permit secondments from the Civil Service only, and that it would exclude the schools’ library service and the education and skills authority. Last week, the Department pointed out that paragraph 5(1)(b) of schedule 1 permits the authority to have such employees as it sees fit to have, which includes seconded staff as well as direct recruits.

1067. The Department also highlighted clause 8(1) of schedule 1, which permits the authority to provide assistance to persons as it sees fit. The Department clearly stated that there is no attempt in the legislation to deny secondments, particularly from the education side and the schools’ library service. The Department explained that Civil Service secondments are specified because they may not have been allowable otherwise.

1068. As that appears to clarify the legislation on secondments, are members happy to move on?

Members indicated assent.

1069. The Chairperson: Schedule 2 deals with staff transfer schemes, and I remind members of our earlier discussions on seeking a final view from the departmental solicitor’s office. Paragraphs 13 and 14 of the explanatory and financial memorandum detail the start-up costs and estimated savings involved. Many witnesses were concerned that the start-up costs are inadequate and that the Department has overestimated the savings that can be made. Last week, the Department did not adequately explain how the figures for start-up costs or savings were calculated.

1070. The Committee wrote to the Department seeking detailed answers, and I understand that its response is due tomorrow. I suggest that members await that before deciding to pursue the issue of costs with the Minister. Members who are not content with that response may wish to ask the Minister to amend the explanatory and financial memorandum to provide a more realistic estimate of costs and savings.

1071. Mr D Bradley: Did you skip a page? Did we cover all the points on the staff transfer scheme?

1072. The Chairperson: Yes, I think so, but tell me why you think otherwise, Dominic.

1073. Mr D Bradley: I do not remember covering all those points.

1074. The Chairperson: I moved through them swiftly because I have a time-management plan for the rest of the meeting, but let me know if something jumps out at you.

1075. Mr D Bradley: We need to cover some of the legal issues.

1076. Mr K Robinson: Further to Dominic’s point, we do not want to sleepwalk into creating a situation similar to that of the classroom assistants at some stage in the future. Therefore, when we revisit the staff transfer scheme and related issues, we must be extremely careful not to set a precedent that could hang, draw and quarter one group or advantage another. We went through the staff transfer scheme fairly quickly, and, therefore, we must revisit it.

1077. The Chairperson: I agree. Given that much has already been said about reaching a proper conclusion on the legal advice, it is an extremely difficult area. However, we agreed earlier to revisit the matter, as Ken and Dominic suggest.

1078. Mr McNarry: As two items — the legal report and start-up costs — have been identified as requiring further discussion, it may be prudent to suggest that the Committee does so before meeting the Minister. I cannot understand why the Department’s reply will arrive tomorrow, given that its officials know that the Committee is meeting today, and I find that unsatisfactory.

1079. All the witnesses who were questioned on the subject made it clear that they did not consider the start-up costs to be adequate, and that will become a major issue. Therefore, if you permit it, Chairperson, we should meet earlier to go through whatever correspondence we receive from the Department as a Committee, rather than as individuals.

1080. If we have evidence that the new authority cannot be established for the cost estimated in the Bill, we would be foolish to state that we will proceed with it — and the evidence of everyone that we have asked is overwhelming. It is a major issue, particularly because we are heading towards the Budget. Are we to allow a Minister to submit bids and compile budgets on the basis that we, as a Committee, do not think that he has enough money? It seems that the Executive do not have enough money to do anything.

1081. The Chairperson: What do you suggest is the way forward?

1082. Mr McNarry: The jury is out on the subject, because we do not have the necessary information. Can we meet half an hour earlier next week, before our meeting with the Minister, to come to a conclusion, as a Committee, on costs?

1083. The Chairperson: OK. That is what we will do.

1084. On David’s point about discussing certain issues “in Committee”, I am disinclined to go down that route. An open Committee is open to the public.

1085. Mr McNarry: I meant that the Committee should gather earlier. I do not want to remove the issues from the public domain, or from Hansard. Perhaps Hansard’s services can be arranged for that earlier meeting too.

1086. The Chairperson: Thank you. That is fine; let us move on.

1087. The need for an advisory council to the authority is not in the Bill. The Library and Information Services Council suggested that an advisory council should be established to support the authority. Last week, the Department said that it had considered that option, but that creating a separate body would involve considerable expense and that it would have recurrent costs. The Department suggested that a better option would be for the library authority to develop strong links with other public library services, as detailed. That seems to be a cost effective solution. Members will note also that only the Library and Information Services Council suggested establishing an advisory council. Are members happy to move on?

Members indicated assent.

1088. The Chairperson: The timing of creating a library authority is also not in the Bill. Members and witnesses are concerned about the timing of creating a new authority, particularly in relation to the establishment of the education and skills authority and staff morale.

1089. Last week, the Department said that the Minister will discuss the matter with the Committee when he comes to give evidence on Thursday 18 October. What are members’ views on the timing issue? When does the Committee think that the library authority should be established? That could be as soon as practically possible or at the same time as the education and skills authority. Are there any views on that?

1090. Mr McNarry: We need to tie that down. The Minister must tell us his view, and we can decide whether we agree with him. To leave the issue hanging in the air does not seem sensible to me. The Committee must consider RPA, the Budget and the many pressing issues that will come on top of that issue.

1091. At one stage, the Minister indicated to the Committee that he would establish the authority, and it was not very important. Suddenly, he sped the matter up. There must be a reason why he is pressing ahead so quickly. It is probably because he is spending money on employing people in an authority that does not yet exist and for goodness knows what other reasons.

1092. The Committee needs to tie him down. It is not for the Committee to stipulate when it wants the authority to be established. We need to ask the Minister when he is going to do it, and we can decide whether that is right or wrong.

1093. Mr D Bradley: It is probably impossible to synchronise the establishment of the library authority and the education and skills authority. It seems to be desirable that the two bodies be established in as close a time frame to each other as possible.

1094. The Chairperson: OK. The Committee can raise the matter again next week. Are members agreed?

Members indicated assent.

1095. The Chairperson: Links with the schools library service and the Department of Education are not in the Bill. Some witnesses and members were concerned that literacy and life-long learning programmes would be impaired by splitting the public library service from the Department of Education. There was also concern that the links with the schools library service would be endangered.

1096. Last week, the Department said that it was in regular contact with the Department of Education on issues relating to the creation of the library authority and the education and skills authority to ensure a common approach to staff transfer. Officials said that in relation to links between the library service and the Department of Education on, for example, the Bookstart programme, the Department would ensure that services continue and that service-level agreements could be established with the education and skills authority. Are members content with that response? Do members wish to press the Minister to address any of those issues by including them in the Bill?

1097. Mr McNarry: I am reasonably satisfied that those issues are not included in the Bill. However, I need more guarantees from the Department. For the Department simply to say that it will ensure that this or that will happen is not good enough, particularly on the links between the library authority and the education and skills authority. I want those assurances to be strengthened through some sort of written agreement that the Department will be tied to, so that, at least, the Department can be held accountable for its actions.

1098. The Chairperson: OK. Is that agreed?

Members indicated assent.

1099. The Chairperson: The sub-regional structure is not in the Bill. Members and witnesses have expressed concern about whether the library authority will have a sub-regional structure and, if so, what form that structure will take. The Committee wrote to the chief executive designate to ask for an update on her progress in establishing a sub-regional structure. A response is expected tomorrow. As David will be glad to hear, Friday follows Thursday.

1100. Last week, the Department said that it sees the sub-regional structure as an operational matter. When the Department says that, one knows that it does not want the matter to be reflected in legislation. The Department does not want the sub-regional structure to be reflected in legislation as it considers it to be an operational matter.

1101. The Committee suggested that contact and interaction with local authorities could be written into legislation. The Department said that it would consider that. Do members wish to pursue the matter with the Minister and suggest that he specifies elements of the sub-regional structure of the authority in the Bill, or are members happy that it remains in the rules of operation? Shall we consider that matter and return to it next week?

1102. Mr McNarry: May I ask a naïve question? The matter may have been discussed when I was out. The problem is that the Committee does not have clear indication of what the operational structure will be. Will all those promises be built into it? The Committee must tie down the Department. Is it the right time to ask the Department how far it has got with the operational structure, what it is and whether it can give the Committee a blueprint of it? The Committee has gone blind on that matter.

1103. The Chairperson: OK.

1104. Mr D Bradley: If the sub-regional structure will not be specified in the Bill, the Committee must have sight of the chief executive designate’s proposals for it. At present, the Committee has not heard anything about the structure, and it has not taken shape. The Committee must have an idea of what it will look like when it is completed.

1105. The Chairperson: The Committee must get more than a promise about the inclusion of the sub-regional structure in the rules of operation. We must have sight of the proposed rules. Is that correct?

1106. Mr D Bradley: I would not go that far. However, the chief executive designate of the education and skills authority has provided the Committee with the operational structure of that body. The Committee must also see the sub-regional structure of the library authority.

1107. Mr McCausland: It seems that the sub-regional structure will end up being local officers or managers for particular council areas. Those people will represent the library service at community planning meetings. Is that sufficient local input, bearing in mind that although there will be councillors on, for instance, a 20-member board, they will not be able to reflect the interests of different communities in that council area? It would not be possible for one individual to do so. Even if there were councillors on the board, it may be that there are none from a particular community.

1108. Although there is a need for a library authority that will have a co-ordinating role between libraries, is the Committee satisfied that there is sufficient local input in the library authority that is envisioned? In a sense, the Committee was bounced into accepting a single library authority at first, because it had been put through quickly in the Chamber. Is the Committee satisfied that the current vision for the library authority provides enough local input, or should there be a single library authority that has a strategic role and a much more enhanced role for local authorities than simply to attend community planning meetings? That question has not been answered.

1109. The Chairperson: The local dimension troubles everyone who sits around the table. We do not believe that it is adequate.

1110. Mr McCausland: Now is the time to deal with it. We can tinker around with details on other matters. However, we must answer that question.

1111. Mr D Bradley: The Department is basically saying that there will be a local officer who will have input into community planning?

1112. Mr McNarry: That is what we think.

1113. Mr McCausland: We do not know that for certain. However, it could not be anything more than that. Will there be a local board in each area in the same way that there is a library committee? Will the officer meet with councillors in the area?

1114. The Chairperson: Those are key issues for the Minister.

1115. Mr McCausland: Yes. In a sense, the onus has been put on Irene Knox who introduced the sub-regional structure. It is a damning indictment of the people who came up with the scheme years ago that they never even considered introducing a sub-regional structure.

1116. Mr McNarry: That brings us back to the fact that there is a great need to see the operational structure, or even to see a draft of it. It worries me that if that work is not done, what are we buying into?

1117. Mr K Robinson: The actual model has yet to be determined. The departmental response on 4 October states: “Perhaps, later on, we will talk about exploiting the subregional nature of libraries”.

1118. That should worry us all, as it is so vague.

1119. The Chairperson: Does the Committee wish to write to Irene Knox to request a copy of the operational structure?

1120. Mr McNarry: No, we can ask the Minister next week. We can put him on the spot then.

1121. Mr McCausland: It may seem that we are being cantankerous at this late stage. The problem is that all of this was done during direct rule when there was no opportunity for proper input and scrutiny.

1122. The Chairperson: We have every entitlement to request to see the structure.

1123. Mr Brolly: Nelson is saying is that the library authority was in place before we had any opportunity for input. There is an obvious anomaly, because the idea of a library authority was to centralise the library service, and what we are talking about now is how best we can decentralise it. We will probably end up believing that we would have been better to stick with the education and library boards.

1124. The Chairperson: The location of the library authority headquarters is not mentioned in the Bill, and some witnesses and members were concerned about that.

1125. Mr K Robinson: Would you favour Omagh, Chairperson?

1126. Mr McNarry: I want to put in a plug for Newtownards: the new headquarters should be in Newtownards. [Laughter.]

1127. The Chairperson: East Antrim lacks public-service jobs.

1128. Mr K Robinson: Yes, East Antrim is very low down the list of priorities.

1129. Mr McCausland: Jim, get in quick with Ballywalter.

1130. Mr Shannon: I would vote for Newtownards. I would support my colleague in his bid for Newtownards.

1131. Mr McNarry: There is a majority of three for Newtownards.

1132. Mr Shannon: As long as it is not Omagh.

1133. The Chairperson: Last week, the Department informed the Committee that the chief executive designate and her team would move to temporary premises in Lisburn in November.

1134. Mr McNarry: Is that at the Maze?

1135. The Chairperson: Maybe it is at Long Kesh. [Laughter.]

1136. The Department is waiting for final advice on the location of public-sector jobs before making a decision on the headquarters’ location. However, it is interesting that the team is moving to Lisburn in the short term. Are members content with that response or do they wish to pursue that matter with the Minister? Is the Committee content that the location of headquarters will be put into the context of the location of public-sector jobs?

1137. Mr P Maskey: What constituency does the Minister represent?

1138. The Chairperson: That is a good point.

1139. Mr McNarry: The point is that the Minister has said that the headquarters will not be a huge building, but I do not know of any small buildings in Lisburn.

1140. Mr P Maskey: They could use the Minister’s constituency office.

1141. Mr McCausland: Or maybe they could use Ulster Unionist Party headquarters?

1142. Mr McNarry: Aye, we have a big building in Lisburn.

1143. The Chairperson: Last week, the Committee suggested to the Department that the legislation should include a provision making it the responsibility of the library authority to ensure that there is a collection of relevant material that may be described as being of national importance. Nelson raised that point, and departmental officials said that they would consider the matter. A memo from Julie Mapstone explains that for such collections held by public libraries, there is a need to set the collection of materials relating to one subject or region in the context of the requirement set out at clause 2(2)(a) for the library authority to make available: “library materials sufficient in number, range and quality to meet the general requirements of adults and children.”

1144. That includes materials for lending and reference purposes to facilitate research and study. Senior library staff would judge how collections should be developed, bearing in mind their library budget.

1145. Mr McCausland: Is that Julie Mapstone’s answer to that question? I do not think that that is much of an answer, because, at present, that does not happen. We have left that duty with librarians, but nothing has happened, so how do we ensure that it will happen in the future?

1146. Mr D Bradley: The definition in clause 2(2)(a) could be interpreted in a very narrow way.

1147. The Chairperson: It is minimal.

1148. Mr D Bradley: The definition could be interpreted in that way — just what is necessary and no more.

1149. The Chairperson: It is very minimal and provides food for thought for the session with the Minister.

1150. Mr K Robinson: We must have a more comprehensive look at the Bill. There is a lot of material that a librarian might know about today, but he or she may well retire rather than deal with the new system. A new librarian may come in and look at the dusty old store and decide to clear it out. The whole archive could go, and that might include very important material for a district, a part of society or whatever. We must insist that that is a very important part of the role of a public library. Not only should there be public access, but there should be the realisation that librarians are holding history in their hands. Libraries hold much more than material: they hold social and individual history. Nevertheless, I have seen documents being sent to the shredder many times.

1151. Mr D Bradley: There may be a need to expand clause 2(2)(b)(ii) of the Bill to ensure that it is not given a minimalistic interpretation.

1152. The Chairperson: In the absence of any dispute, we will agree to seek further discussion on clause 2(2)(b)(ii).

1153. The Northern Ireland Publications Resource has established a non-statutory national bibliography by collecting all locally published material since 2000 — this is all very interesting. That is the Linen Hall Library collection and the Belfast Central Library.

1154. Mr McCausland: It is across all libraries. The weakness with is that it applies to locally published material. For example, I know that the founder of Los Angeles was born Belfast, and a book about him was published in America — because the book was not published here, it has not been collected by the Northern Ireland Publications Resource. A huge number of stories are missing.

1155. By the way, you might be interested to know that the founder of Los Angeles was educated at a Christian Brothers School in Dublin.

1156. The Chairperson: That is not so bad. That is very magnanimous of you, Nelson. [Laughter.]

1157. Have any of the libraries collected any books on the Fintona tram?

1158. Mr McCausland: I am sure that you would find something in the Linen Hall Library.

1159. The point is that the collection facility needs to be more comprehensive than that provided by the Northern Ireland Publications Resources: we are losing the diaspora element about people from here. Many American tourists trail round the Linen Hall Library on a wet day trying to find information. There should be information of wider significance and not just locally published material.

1160. Mr D Bradley: What document are you reading from? We do not appear to have a copy of it.

1161. The Chairperson: Are members content with the information provided by the Department, or will we pursue the matters as Nelson described? We can pursue matters further next week.

1162. Mr McCausland: Is there consensus that we should broaden our vision beyond locally published material? What about information published in Glasgow or Dublin? We should not just have locally published material.

1163. The Chairperson: OK: so that part should be reworded or reconsidered.

1164. Mr D Bradley: Libraries should seek information that is relevant to our local situation.

1165. Mr McCausland: Absolutely.

1166. The Chairperson: This part of the meeting has come to a conclusion.

18 October 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

1167. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): The meeting is open to the public.

1168. The earlier starting time was agreed because the Committee needed time to prepare before taking the Minister’s evidence on the Libraries Bill. The Minister, Edwin Poots, is due around 10.45 am. Hansard will be in attendance at that session and this one. We need to discuss a number of issues and to agree our position and the line of questioning that we wish to pursue with the Minister.

1169. The first issue is start-up costs. Many of the witnesses were concerned that the start-up costs specified in the explanatory and financial memorandum are inadequate. The figure has been put at £670,000. In a consistent line of questioning, led sometimes by the Deputy Chairman, we have asked about start-up costs.

1170. The Committee wrote to the five education and library boards and the two unions asking them to estimate those costs. Responses have been received from three of the boards and from UNISON. UNISON states that it is not in a position to estimate costs. The Western and South Eastern Education and Library Boards have provided a breakdown of the areas that need to be costed; however, without knowing the staffing structure of the library authority and other matters, they say that they cannot provide estimated figures. The Western Education and Library Board indicated that the cost of releasing one chief librarian under the 104-week scheme would be at least £120,000. The North Eastern Education and Library Board has provided costings under separate headings — its estimated total for start-up costs is £1·5 million. That is more than double the amount that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) has set aside. The Southern Education and Library Board had no comments, but said that it agreed with those made by the western board. The boards all referred to the Deloitte report, which indicates start-up costs of £965,000 in respect of support services; these also need to be taken into account as part of the overall start-up bill.

1171. Other evidence that the Department may have underestimated start-up costs comes from the bids made in the October monitoring round. The Department submitted a bid for £550,000 to cover corporate services. The Committee wrote to the Department on 1 October 2007 pointing that out and asking whether it acknowledged that its original estimate was inadequate and whether it intended to alter the explanatory and financial memorandum accordingly.

1172. We also asked whether the Department has made any provision for start-up costs beyond 2007-08. The response, dated 16 October, advises that anticipated expenditure on start-up costs — comprising salaries for the chief executive designate and her team, temporary premises and consultancy — amount to £350,000 up to the end of March 2008. There is a lot of detail about what we have discussed so far.

The Department also advises that:

“Ahead of a firm decision on the operational date for the Library Authority, we cannot be sure whether £670k is an under- or over-estimate; it will depend on the length of the start-up period and hence the length of time salaries and rent need to be paid. The proportion of these costs which fall in 2008-09 will be considered within the Comprehensive Spending Review (CSR) allocations.”

1173. The Department was asked to say whether it would consider amending the explanatory and financial memorandum in the light of the issue around start-up costs. It has not answered that question. It refers to paragraph 14 of the explanatory and financial memorandum, in which it is noted that the Department:

“was undertaking an exercise to establish the options for future provision of corporate services to the Library Authority and the associated costs, both running costs and start-up costs. Figures for these start-up costs were not specified in the EFM because it was not possible to make an estimate until this exercise had been completed.”

The Department advises us that:

“The October monitoring bid for £550,000 for corporate services is to enable us to move ahead on establishing corporate services in this financial year if required. Start-up costs for corporate service provision which fall in 2008-09 will be considered within the CSR.

You also raise two other possible areas of start-up funding: for establishing the identity of the Library Authority, and for a redundancy scheme. An exercise to develop certain identity measures for the Library Authority is being considered at present. The case for redundancies will be considered in the light of the organisational structure which the Chief Executive (designate) is working on with senior library staff. This consideration will include the extent to which a redundancy scheme offers value for money.”

1174. The key question this morning — and I do not think that I will get a “yes” to it — is: are members content with the Department’s response? Members will have the opportunity to discuss these issues with Minister Edwin Poots this morning. Does anyone want to make an initial comment?

1175. Mr McNarry: From where I am sitting, the answer to your question is no. How deliberate or penetrable can we be with the Minister on this? We have asked the question — we know the answer. How big a point are we allowed to make? What the Department is telling us is a joke. It says that £350,000 has been set aside for something that is not in place yet, allowing this chief executive designate to recruit, to secure temporary premises and so on. Are we to believe that that is what start-up costs are about? Then it goes on to say that it does not know what the start-up costs will be. How clear do we have to be, as a Committee, in bringing our views to our colleagues in the Assembly on this matter?

1176. Mr P Ramsey: I will do my utmost to be brief in questioning the Minister. However, there are a series of questions about consistency that I have asked the boards and that I propose to put to the Minister as well, particularly in relation to the provision of services and a range of other areas, such as literacy, the early-years programme and support services.

1177. Mr McCausland: I wanted to ask a question about provision for the idea of a national library or reference library. In addition, are we convinced that a single library authority, as currently envisaged, is the best model and that it provides local input? We touched on that in our discussions on subregional structure, but perhaps we are not pushing it hard enough. We need answers because it is a process that we were not involved in.

1178. Mr P Ramsey: Those are good questions.

1179. The Chairperson: There is a series of other issues —

1180. Mr McNarry: If I am reading the material correctly, the draft Budget will be launched in the Assembly on 25 October. Hip hip hooray. Where do we sit on that, Chairman? As a Committee, what is our position regarding that Budget? I am not deeply appreciative of the UNISON letter, but it is to the point in that it says that the union does not have the information to be able to provide the Committee with estimated start-up costs. That sums up my view; I do not have the information to be able to tell myself.

1181. However, the draft Budget will be published soon. What is the Committee’s job regarding that? Do we point out to the Department that as a result of the draft Budget, the departmental budget regarding start-up costs is up the shute?

1182. Mr P Maskey: The Committee will not get the chance to address those issues until 15 November 2007. The Minister said in his letter that he is happy to come back and discuss the detail of the draft budget proposals for DCAL on 15 November. It will already have gone through at that time. Therefore, by 15 November, it will be a bit late.

1183. The Chairperson: Let us focus on the questions that we are going to ask the Minister regarding the Libraries Bill. David, I presume that you are going to go strong on the start-up costs?

1184. Mr McNarry: With the indulgence and help of the other members, I certainly want to take up the issue of start-up costs. I also want the legalities of this issue to be examined. Following the episode in the House on 16 October 2007 regarding legal issues, I want to be absolutely clear what the Committee’s position is.

1185. Mr McCausland: Regarding the start-up costs, the letter from the Minister states:

“The anticipated expenditure on this group of start-up costs up to the end of March 2007 is £350,000.”

Therefore, what the Minister is saying is that it depends on how fast people move. The assumption was that there was a start-up date of next year. The figure has now to be amended because the library authority has asked for extra money. Whether that extra money is actually needed depends on how quickly the authority can get up and running. How did the Department manage to get it so badly wrong?

1186. The Chairperson: That is a good question. It does seem badly wrong.

1187. Mr McCausland: Yes. I was watching the Committees at Westminster the other night on television. We are quite gentle; they are savage people.

1188. The Chairperson: There are honourable exceptions. Some people are tough enough here as well.

1189. Mr McNarry: We should pretend that they are the Northern Rock boys sitting facing us. That is the Committee that I was watching, and I thought that it was brilliant.

1190. Mr McCausland: It was like blood sport.

1191. The Chairperson: Good luck to both of you.

1192. We will move on to detail the second general issue that we will be considering with the Minister this morning, which is the estimated savings that are specified in the explanatory and financial memorandum. The estimated savings are £0·6 million for 2009-10 and £1·2 million for 2010-11. Witnesses are concerned that the Department is overestimating the savings that can be made, and underestimating the start-up costs.

1193. The Committee wrote to the Department asking for a breakdown of the savings. The Minister stated in his response that:

“No further breakdown of the estimated efficiency savings is available. The estimate was not based on specific costings; therefore, it will not commit the new Library Authority to particular decisions. Projected savings on administration and possible surplus premises will become clearer when the organisational design and staffing structure of the Library Authority is determined.”

1194. The Committee’s letter of 8 October 2007 asked the Department to provide a detailed explanation of how the estimated savings for the library authority were calculated, with a breakdown of the £0·6 million for 2009-10 and the £1·2 million for 2010-11. The Department responded, stating that:

“Estimates of efficiencies were required in 2006 for the Reform Programme, which anticipated savings in administration from the RPA, and transferred to the planning exercise for the Comprehensive Spending Review. The estimate for efficiencies —£600k for 2009-10, rising to £1.2 million in 2010-2011 — was based on a set of assumptions, which were set out in earlier correspondence to you, related to merging 5 library services into one. It was recognised that it would take time to deliver on efficiencies, and none were taken for 2008-9, the expected first year of operation of the Authority.

The estimate was not based on specific costings and therefore does not commit the new Library Authority to particular decisions. The savings are separate from the additional monies which will be required by the Library Authority to cover the corporate services functions.

Projected savings on administration and from possible surplus premises will become clearer when the organisational design is determined.”

1195. Members may wish to ask the Minister to remove from the explanatory and financial memorandum the claim that efficiency savings will be made, given that the figures are not based on any specific costings and that the Department will not commit the new library authority to particular decisions. Have members any comments on that?

1196. Mr McCausland: The Committee received that letter only this morning. It says that the figures were set out in earlier correspondence, but it does not give the date of that correspondence. How are we meant to know what it said?

1197. Mr Shannon: I would like to see those figures on the first- and second-year savings. I believe that they were £0·6 million and £1·2 million. Is that right?

1198. The Chairperson: That is correct. The estimated savings are £0·6 million for 2009-10 and £1·2 million for 2010-11.

1199. If there are no other questions, members will want to focus on that second broad area, using their own initiative and instinct. Those broad areas and the suggested questions will all inform the Committee’s approach.

1200. The third issue is schedule 2. After last week’s meeting, a copy of the NIPSA legal paper was passed to the Department for onward transmission to the departmental solicitor’s office. A response was requested from the departmental solicitor’s office for today’s meeting.

1201. The Department has provided a response advising that it separately requested the legal paper from NIPSA and that it is seeking a meeting between its legal adviser and that of NIPSA to discuss differences of opinion. The Department states that politeness demands that it waits for a reply from NIPSA and that time must be factored in for any meeting to take place before the Departmental Solicitor’s Office official will be in a position to respond.

1202. Mr McNarry: That is a time bomb, and the Department is playing pass the parcel with it. If I remember correctly, the Committee agreed — although I disagreed — that it would furnish departmental officials with the information that it had. I understood that there was urgency surrounding that, and I would have thought that the discussions that must take place between the two legal gentlemen were a done deal.

1203. I do not want the Committee to get involved in a legal wrangle without knowing what it is doing. What advice is the Committee being given that would indicate whether or when it would be necessary to get its own legal advice to ascertain which of the two eminent lawyers is correct? The Department’s lawyer is saying that he is right; the other is not saying that he is wrong, but the issue is hanging in the air, and it is a game of pass the parcel. It is a time bomb, unless we get it right.

1204. What I mean is that I see no sense in the Committee taking the risk to approve a Bill when it has evidence that the Bill may be sufficiently flawed that, as soon as it hits the streets, the Department will be taken to court. I am not prepared to do that. I am prepared to take certain risks, but that is a risk too far. I cannot, as a Committee member, pass a Bill knowing that there is already a legal challenge waiting outside the door.

1205. At present, I am not satisfied that the situation has been dealt with.

1206. The Chairperson: The fourth, broad area for scrutiny is the number of board members. Last week, Ken Robinson proposed that there should be 20 members, which achieved consensus around this table. It is thought that 20 members is a reasonable number. However, the Bill specifies that there should be a minimum of seven and a maximum of 14 members. How does the Committee propose to deal with that?

1207. Mr K Robinson: Last week, we exercised the argument that given that the Committee wants to achieve geographical spread and range of interests, the practicalities of board meetings and the certainty that subcommittees will need to be set up in order to deal with issues such as finance. I still maintain that a membership of around 20 would allow for geographical spread, a range of interests and will allow the board to carry out its functions more effectively.

1208. The Chairperson: Have members any further views on membership of elected representatives? The Committee has agreed that the board should include elected representatives — whom we understand to be members of local government authorities, such as councillors — and union representatives. Members are asked to consider further how many of each should be on the board. Does the Committee recommend, for example, that they should make up a third of the board’s members?

1209. Mr K Robinson: The document suggests that elected representatives and trade union representatives should each make up one third. I am not sure that I totally agree with that.

1210. The Chairperson: Mr McCausland, perhaps you would agree that that should not be prescriptive.

1211. Mr McCausland: I would not want that to be prescriptive. If the board is to be locally accountable, local authority members should make up a substantial section. There are a range of other interests. Is there a suggestion that trade unions should make up a third?

1212. Mr K Robinson: Yes. That seems too high.

1213. Mr McCausland: That is far too high.

1214. Mr Ramsey: There has been discussion on whether the subregional mechanism will be made up of offices or a structure. That must be completely clarified. The Committee does not know whether there will be a board in each region.

1215. The Chairperson: That is another key area. I am not surprised that you have raised the issue of the subregional structure, Mr Ramsey, as you are bound to be concerned about the north-west.

1216. Mr Shannon: Obviously, the number of members who are councillors will depend on the size of the board. If there are 20 members, as the Committee would prefer, perhaps three or four elected representatives would be appropriate. If the Minister holds firms to his proposal of seven to 14 members, where does the Committee stand on that? Obviously, the board’s size will affect what the membership should be from councils.

1217. The Chairperson: It is useful to challenge every aspect of that.

1218. Mr Brolly: I can envisage difficulty in there being a clash between achieving the desired geographical spread and having a workable, viable number of members.

1219. I do not know how a third of councillors could be selected and how it would be decided which areas would be represented and which would not. We should consider the use of some of the representative bodies of councillors, such as the National Association of Councillors (NAC) or Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA), on the board to represent councils and keep the numbers of board members down.

1220. Mr McCausland: I am not in favour of those organisations being represented. The NAC is a strange body at the best of times and its role is not quite the same as NILGA. Furthermore, there is a range of opinions across councils about the strengths or otherwise of NILGA.

1221. Mr Shannon: Not everyone has that opinion; some councillors may be happy with NAC.

1222. Mr McCausland: Yes, but its role is concerned with the rights of councillors. It is a trade union for councillors.

1223. The Chairperson: Mr Ferguson is a champion for councillors.

1224. Mr Brolly: A solution is needed in which councillors are represented, without having all the councillors there or having to choose which councillors are represented.

1225. The Chairperson: The general consensus is, without being prescriptive, to uphold the important principle of local accountability of and representation by elected representatives — councillors.

1226. I refer members to the table in their pack, which gives details of the Committee’s position on the issues of concern that we wish to raise with the Minister. I expect Kieran McCarthy to zone in on clause 6(1), which refers to free core services and charging. Other members will, of course, want to talk about that issue, but Kieran has been pursuing it rigorously in successive weeks.

1227. Mr Brolly: Are we looking at the questions, or at the issues of concern on the Libraries Bill?

1228. The Chairperson: I have to go through a long introduction into the general themes that are being raised this morning.

1229. The Department said that it would be prepared to consider amending clause 6(1) and it asked the Committee to come up with alternative wording. The suggested wording was proposed by the South Eastern Education and Library Board (SELB).

1230. The Committee Clerk: Nelson McCausland referred to a form of wording, which might be acceptable, that one of the witnesses proposed.

1231. Mr McCausland: Yes, a man from the professional body proposed it, but I cannot remember what the form of words was.

1232. The Committee Clerk: The wording that we have lifted came from the South Eastern Education and Library Board, but if there is another form of wording, we can use that.

1233. Mr McCarthy: The wording used by SELB is fairly strong:

“the Authority may not make any charges”.

That reflects the Committee’s view on the matter.

1234. The Chairperson: Do you think that the wording used by the South Eastern Education and Library Board is strong?

1235. Mr McCarthy: Yes, I think that it is. It covers all of our concerns.

1236. Mr McCausland: Can we compare it with the wording that the other individual, to whom I referred, came up with? The wording may be similar.

1237. The Chairperson: Do you want to do that now, or revisit that shortly?

1238. Mr McCausland: We can revisit that.

1239. The Chairperson: Obviously, we need to strengthen the wording.

1240. The Chairperson: I remind members, prior to the arrival of the Minister — which is scheduled to happen in the next five minutes — that you are required to declare any interests that are relevant to the Committee’s consideration of the Libraries Bill. Those will be recorded in the minute. Members should also note that they are required to declare an interest when asking a witness a question that might related directly to that interest. Again, I state that I am a member of the Western Education and Library Board.

1241. Mr McCausland: I am the Chairperson of a board of school governors. However, since we work under the aegis of the boards, I have to declare that.

1242. The Chairperson: I know. I will work my way around the table and ask members about their interests. David, do you have any interests?

1243. Mr McCausland: I am Chairperson of the BELB library committee and am a member of the board of governors of three schools.

1244. Lord Browne: I am on the board of governors of two schools.

1245. Mr K Robinson: Similarly, I am on the board of governors of two schools.

1246. The Chairperson: Pat, have you any interests to declare?

1247. Mr P Ramsey: I have no interests to declare.

1248. The Chairperson: Francie, do you have any interests to declare — apart from your genius?

1249. Mr Brolly: No one is interested in me.

1250. Mr Shannon: I am on a board of governors. I am not sure if it is necessary to declare that, but I must tell you about anything that I think might be relevant.

1251. The Chairperson: Shall we focus on Mr Shannon rather than the Minister?

1252. Mr Shannon: He is on the big money.

1253. Mr D Bradley: I am a governor of a primary school.

1254. The Chairperson: Members should also be advised that we will have welcome assistance from the Bill Office. Intervention is always welcome. We are ready to speak to the Minister if he is ready to speak to us. We can chill out for a minute.

1255. Mr Shannon: I have a young fellow with me who is on work experience. He is here to see how the Assembly and, in this case, the DCAL Committee works.

1256. The Chairperson: He is welcome.

1257. Mr Shannon: He is shadowing me for a week, and, so far, he has had a busy time.

He knows how hard I work. Ask him afterwards.

1258. The Chairperson: Nelson, the Committee staff are trying to locate the wording that you felt strengthened the point.

1259. Mr Shannon: Next Thursday is Budget day. This Committee is also scheduled to meet then. How will members juggle those commitments?

1260. The Chairperson: It will be difficult. I will take advice from the Committee Clerk about other Committee’s plans. Members of this Committee may have strong opinions about what should or should not happen on Thursday. I understand that the Programme for Government, the ISNI and the Budget are to be discussed in Committees next Thursday.

1261. Mr McNarry: It will only be the commencement of consultation on the Budget. There will be no vote or major debate about the Budget statement, which will be followed by a one hour discussion about what has been said.

1262. The Chairperson: David, do you think that the Committee could run alongside the plenary session?

1263. Mr McNarry: It might be a problem for management. The decision to hold the meeting will be a matter for the Committee members. If we attend the Committee meeting, we will have to rely on Hansard in order to find out what happened in the plenary sitting.

1264. Mr P Ramsey: Next Thursday will be the first time that Members will have a chance to discuss the Budget and the comprehensive spending review. It would be inappropriate to hold a Committee meeting at that time.

1265. Mr McNarry: I agree with that. Kieran McCarthy sits with me on the Business Committee, and it might benefit members of the Committee to check with their party Whips to find out which party members will participate in the Budget debate and to arrange for all parties to have a fair chance in the time allocated. That is the best way to approach the matter.

1266. The Chairperson: What is the Committee Clerk’s advice?

1267. Mr McCausland: The Budget statement is scheduled to take place between 10.30 am and 11.30 am —

1268. A Member: No, there are two —

1269. Mr McNarry: A debate on the Programme for Government will be tabled tomorrow.

1270. The Chairperson: Replies to the Budget statement take the form of questions rather than debate.

1271. Mr Shannon: Will there be an hour set aside for that?

1272. The Committee Clerk: There will be one hour set aside.

1273. Mr Shannon: David’s point is valid. Obviously, each party will have its pecking order for speakers. We could attend the Committee and other people could ask questions in the Chamber.

1274. The Chairperson: The Committee meeting will therefore run alongside the plenary session; although, members might get distracted for other reasons and have to go to the plenary session.

1275. Mr McCarthy: The Budget is important. Could the Committee meet on Tuesday? I know that that would put pressure on staff, but Tuesday seems to have been forgotten.

1276. The Chairperson: The Minister will be attending the Committee on Thursday of next week.

1277. A Member: Other Committees will also be meeting on Tuesday.

1278. The Committee Clerk: Next week, the Minister will be attending in order to discuss the Irish language.

1279. Mr McCausland: There is nothing to discuss about that.

1280. Mr Shannon: The discussion is over.

1281. The Chairperson: That will happen next week. Are there any other items on the agenda, or is that the only subject for the Minister to discuss?

1282. Mr Shannon: David is right about the speaking order in the Chamber following the Minister of Finance and Personnel’s statement about the Budget, and, given that the Minister will be coming, I suggest that we go ahead with the Committee meeting. In order to ensure that we have a quorum, members should indicate whether they will be able to attend.

1283. The Chairperson: Next week we will continue our ongoing discussions on the Libraries Bill. As scheduled, we will hold the Committee meeting next Thursday. Members must do their best to attend.

18 October 2007

Witnesses:

Mr Edwin Poots		The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Colin Jack		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Irene Knox		Proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority

1284. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure, Edwin Poots, to this morning’s Committee meeting to discuss the Libraries Bill. I do not think that Mr Poots plans to make a statement. Is that the case, Minister?

1285. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure (Mr Poots): I have a speaking note.

1286. The Chairperson: The session will take the form of questions after you have made your introductory statement. I welcome your senior colleagues, Mr Colin Jack and Ms Irene Knox.

1287. Mr Poots: I thank the Chairperson and members for inviting me to address the Committee on the Libraries Bill. Officials from the Department spoke to you recently, and since then I have passed information on to the Committee. I am aware that you have some outstanding concerns, and I hope that some of those concerns can be addressed today.

1288. The deliberations of the Committee have caused us to look carefully at the legislation and our approach to it. It is worth noting that I remain convinced that this is the best model for the Library Service. The public Library Service is not one of the big beasts of public expenditure — schools, hospitals, roads and social security fall into that category. Nevertheless, it is a key service that has the capacity to contribute significantly to quality of life. It differs from much specialised public provision at this time; it is universal and not targeted; it is driven by the user and is not monetary; it is free at the point of use for its core services; and it can be adaptable and flexible, modifying services to meet new demands or changes in modern society. Despite being a relatively old service, those attributes make it acutely modern and useful in these changing times, and puts it in a position to support a range of other priorities — economic, educational and community development.

1289. A good public library service is the mark of a civilized society. How it is run and the quality of a library service says something about the values of the society it serves. The amalgamation of Northern Ireland’s five library services into one service is primarily about improving the quality of the service to the public.

1290. A single library service is in a better position to establish partnership arrangements with other bodies to ensure relevance. I can ensure equity of provision across Northern Ireland; that should enable the transmission of best practice, so that all areas come up to the same level, namely the best. The library service should be able to raise its profile and market itself appropriately.

1291. The library authority and its board will have sole responsibility for the library service alone, ensuring that it is focused and undistracted by other matters. Compared to other services in the UK and Ireland, this is an innovative idea, which has excited interest elsewhere — as the Committee will know from some of the evidence that has been presented to it.

1292. I want to address the timing of the establishment of the library authority. The extension of the Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill now makes establishment impossible to achieve by April 2008. I have been considering the implications of that in a new timetable. I have also listened to the views of stakeholders in the education and library boards, who recognise that the two services, education and libraries, are separating, and though their preference is to move at the same time, they accept that that may not be possible. Their chief concern is that the processes for the transfer of staff are common and developed at the same time in order to minimise disruption to the boards and ensure that all staff are treated equally.

1293. My Department has taken those considerations on board and is working closely with the education and skills authority (ESA) implementation team and the Department of Education to ensure commonality of approach. A mid-year start poses practical difficulties for the library authority in the 2008-09 financial year, not least with corporate and financial issues and reporting. I have, therefore, decided to put back the date for the establishment of the new authority to 1 April 2009. That is a later start than I had intended, and there will be some cost implications as a consequence, but it reflects the views expressed to me about the technicalities of moving ahead.

1294. I intend to proceed with the appointment of the board of the library authority as soon as possible after the passage of the legislation so that it can operate in shadow mode from the middle of 2008-09. That would allow the authority to prepare fully for the transfer of powers and ensure the board’s full involvement in the preparation of the authority’s first corporate plan.

1295. I am happy to listen to the views of the Committee and answer questions.

1296. The Chairperson: Thank you, Minister. Some interesting news has been brought to the table this morning.

1297. Lord Browne: I welcome the Minister. Clause two of the Libraries Bill deals with the duty of an authority to provide a library service. Many people have expressed considerable concern that the standards expected of an authority in providing such a service have not been specified in the Bill. In particular, they have pointed out that the words “comprehensive” and “efficient”, which are used in the current legislation, do not appear in the new Bill at all. The Minister’s officials have already explained to the Committee that they did not regard the words “comprehensive” and “efficient” as meaningful; in their opinion it would be unusual to legislate for efficiency. However, the Committee is generally agreed that those words should be included in the Bill. We feel particularly that efficiency should be made clear in this piece of legislation.

1298. What are the Minister’s views on this matter?

1299. Mr Poots: I am happy to consider your suggestion. Terms such as “comprehensive” and “efficient” add meaning, so the Department will be happy to examine that. The Committee Stage of Bills is about identifying those kinds of issues. The Department will examine that, and we will come back to the Committee on it.

1300. Mr P Maskey: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I wish to ask some questions on efficiency savings. As you have said, you intend to postpone the establishment of a library authority until April 2009. How will the efficiency of the library service be monitored, and who will monitor it? Will it be monitored by an independent body?

1301. The Committee recognises that it would be inappropriate to include standards in the legislation, because if the Department wanted to amend those standards it would have to go through the entire legislative process again.

1302. However, is there some way in which the legislation can provide for the Assembly to have a role in approving changes made to performance standards set for the library authority?

1303. Mr Poots: Ultimately, the library authority will have a chief executive who will report to the Department’s accounting officer — who is the permanent secretary. The permanent secretary will report to me, and I will report to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, on behalf of the Assembly. Those are the normal accounting mechanisms that are in place for a public body. I am satisfied with those mechanisms, without going out to an independent body. If you find that accountancy procedures are not working out, people may be asked to come before the Public Accounts Committee, something which has been done in the past. Once again, that is provided for in the current Assembly. That is a fallback position for dealing with those who do not adhere to good financial strictures. I am satisfied that we do not need to have an independent body over and above the current arrangements.

1304. Ms Irene Knox (proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority): With regard to standards, the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ policy framework currently contains standards. Standards must be continually reviewed. What is appropriate now may not be appropriate in a year’s time or in two years’ time. One of the things that I would like to lead, in the new library authority, is a continuous improvement process. I am happy to liaise with the Committee with regard to standards that have been established for the current Library Service, and standards that we will need to look at in the future. There is a role for the Committee, the Department, and consumers of the Library Service to determine throughout that process the standard of performance to which the Library Service should adhere.

1305. Mr P Maskey: Therefore, the Assembly has no role in approving changes?

1306. Ms Knox: There is a role for the Assembly, through the Committee. I will report on standards and the Committee will comment on whether those standards are appropriate or not. Standards would then be revised as a result of discussion and consultation.

1307. Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): The current policy framework for the Library Service was drawn up in 2006 after quite a lengthy period of consultation on a previous document. We expect to update and revise the policy framework and standards every few years. As part of that process, the Department will be working for the Minister. We would expect the Minister and the Department to bring proposals for any revised policy framework to the Committee for consideration. That is the way in which the framework for accountability will work in the future.

1308. As well as that, I expect that once the library authority is established that the Committee will be in a position to call the chairman of the library authority to account — accompanied by the chief executive — with regard to their corporate plans. Therefore, there would an opportunity for direct accountability between the Committee and the library authority.

1309. Mr P Maskey: I do not want to labour the point. However, is there any way that that process, as you have described it, can be strengthened through legislation. It is OK to say, at the present stage, that there will be an opportunity for direct accountability between the Committee and the library authority. However, the Committee could be by-passed on any decision that has already been made. It may be all right for us to request a role, but it does not mean that our request will be granted. The Committee wants its role in the process to be strengthened, somewhere in the legislation.

1310. Mr Poots: I ask the Committee to be cautious about what they are asking for, in that instance. If the Committee want to put the process into a legislative framework, it will bind the flexibility of the process. We have a system whereby, if changes were to be introduced, the natural thing — and the way in which the Assembly operates — is that those changes are reported to the relevant Committee by the relevant Minister. We engage in discussions such as those and try to reach a common sense approach, working with each other.

1311. If the process is put into legislation, the Committee will have to bid to enter those processes. It must be remembered that the current Assembly is in an early stage, and that there is not much legislation on the table as yet. I have no doubt that in two or three years’ time we will be wading our way through a pile of legislation. As a consequence of that, the Committee may want to see changes being implemented quickly. However, if the Committee has to bid to get into the legislative process for fairly minor changes, then real difficulties will be created in the flexibility of the process that we have.

1312. Mr McCausland: I want to pick up on the fact that there is no national library and that it would be unrealistic for a small place such as Northern Ireland to have one. However, my concern is that material relating not only to life in Northern Ireland and the province of Ulster but to the Ulster diaspora is not available for a range of reasons. The Northern Ireland Publications Resource was mentioned, but I understand that it collects only locally published material.

1313. Many books about emigrants from Northern Ireland, who have gone around the world and done various things, were published elsewhere and are not available here. People have to travel to a London library to access those books and make arrangements to borrow them. Could it somehow be included in the legislation that there should be a strengthened collection of material with specific relevance to Northern Ireland and the province of Ulster, regardless of where it has been published?

1314. Mr Poots: I am not sure whether that would come under legislation or policy, but perhaps Irene can brief us on that.

1315. Ms Irene Knox: I take on board Mr McCausland’s point. There is an onus on the library authority to collect material that is relevant to Northern Ireland. The difficulty with including something such as that in legislation is that it is not always possible to identify material unless someone points it out. Therefore, the authority could be placed in a difficult position should it miss a publication.

1316. However, the library authority will have a stock policy and a collections policy. Bear in mind that it will also have to develop a range of policies that are Northern Ireland-wide, and beyond. Mr McCausland’s point could be taken on board in the stock policy. It could include consideration also of how to make sure material is available, without always purchasing necessarily, for instance by collaborating much more closely with others to ensure the availability to people here of the materials that they need. Such collaboration could be with the Linenhall Library or Trinity College Library Dublin, which, as national library, collects a great deal of relevant material. Any such policy should ensure that there is no duplication but that there is access to whatever materials people need.

1317. Mr McCausland: I accept your point about collaboration with other libraries. The Mitchell Library in Glasgow is another that comes to mind, and other libraries in Scotland should also be considered. However, I am thinking about some form of words that would not necessarily tie the library authority to strengthening its collection, but allow it some flexibility and still serve as a constant reminder of the need to do so. In the past, when I raised the issue with various librarians, action was not always taken. It would be good to have a general phrase to stress the point, and perhaps something could be considered on that basis.

1318. Ms Knox: I am sure that the Department would be happy to consider it.

1319. Mr D Bradley: As an example of what Mr McCausland mentioned, part of the stock of the Irish and Local Studies Library in Armagh is being stored in the basement of library headquarters and, therefore, is not readily available to the public. Furthermore, that library is on the lookout for the type of material that Nelson mentioned earlier. How can we be sure that, under the library authority, such material will still be collected and readily available to the public?

1320. Mr Colin Jack (The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Should a specific aspect of collections policy be included in the legislation, it would tie the library authority to it. Potentially the library authority could find itself in court due to a failure to collect a particular piece of material. However, you would expect the strengthening of collections to feature strongly in the policy of the new authority and in any policy guidelines issued by the Department. We will reflect on the matter and see what we can come up with.

1321. Mr McCausland: Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to come up with a form of words to emphasise and focus on the issue without being prescriptive.

1322. Mr Jack: For example, the new library authority will want to work on that aspect in its mission statement and through the development of its first corporate plan. Those are all ways that we can consider.

1323. Mr McCausland: We should reflect on the terminology that was used in the old legislation on museums. They were to collect or have material relevant to the region. There is a growing emphasis on that in tourism and cultural connections around the world, even through Tourism Ireland. It is from that material that many of those ideas can be generated.

1324. Mr Poots: I am aware of the issue that Mr Bradley has raised, because it has been raised locally with me. There is an excellent stock of literature that is not being made publicly available, and we must look into that.

1325. Mr McCarthy: My question is about clause 6, and charging for core services. Many of the witnesses, if not all, were concerned that the current wording of clause 6 does not guarantee free core services. Your officials said that they would be prepared to consider amending the clause, and they asked the Committee to put forward alternative wordings.

1326. The Committee proposes the following wording for clause 6(1), which was originally suggested by SELB:

“The Authority may not make any charges for any library services provided by it”

— and this is new —

“including the borrowing of books and free access to information, except for —

(a) those services specified in a scheme of charges approved by the Department and published by the Authority; and

(b) the charges are made in accordance with that scheme.”

1327. First, what are your views on that form of wording?

1328. Mr Poots: This is the first time that I have heard that form of words, so I can give no commitment on it. In essence, it does not appear unreasonable. However, we will have to look at all the ramifications. We will take that away, consider it and come back to the Committee.

1329. Mr McCarthy: To follow on from that, clause 6(2) permits different charges for different persons, circumstances or localities. In relation to the question of locality, the Committee has considered the idea that there should be some thought given to producing a standard set of charges, which would apply throughout Northern Ireland. What are your views on that? Do you foresee any difficulties?

1330. Mr Poots: One of the reasons for introducing a single library authority is to have a service that is consistent throughout Northern Ireland, so that the user gets the same service in Castlederg as in Coleraine, and the same in Belfast as in Enniskillen. That is what we are aiming for. In my view, there would be no benefit in having different charges in different regions or parts of Northern Ireland.

1331. Mr McCarthy: Again, in relation to different charges for different persons, your officials explained that that referred to current practice, whereby children and senior citizens are not charged for late returns, whereas adults are charged. The Committee is aware of educational colleges who say that they cannot give a reduced rate to senior citizens as that is incompatible with legislation on ageism. Can you assure the Committee that the provision for making charges for different persons is within the law?

1332. Mr Poots: We cannot give you that assurance. We would have to get the relevant people to look at that aspect on our behalf. One of the disadvantages in pushing the whole issue of ageism may be that some of the benefits that older people enjoy at present may be denied to them in the future.

1333. Mr McCarthy: However, you agree that this is a very important question?

1334. Mr Poots: Yes, it certainly is.

1335. Mr D Bradley: I would like to comment on that. The issue that the Minister has just mentioned has come up with respect to provision of evening classes in colleges of education. In some cases, the privileges enjoyed by older people have been withdrawn on the basis of new legislation, which is supposed to protect them.

1336. When you are looking into the question, Minister, will you raise that issue with the Office of First Minister and deputy First Minister, with a view to retaining the protections that older citizens currently enjoy?

1337. Mr Poots: I am certainly happy to look at that. I must point out, however, that some of the wealthiest people I know happen to be over 65, and they do not necessarily need to have financial support to do those things. Others, who are younger, might have greater need.

1338. I am happy to discuss the issue, but we must bear in mind that it does not necessarily meet all the equality regulations that we have. In addition, there are probably older citizens who do not receive benefits and are, therefore, deprived of opportunities. It is not my Department’s responsibility, but perhaps we need better means of identifying people’s ability to pay for services. Some older people would not miss the money, while other people who are not on benefits might struggle to pay for some of the services.

1339. Mr Shannon: Minister, the Committee is asking for consideration to be given to the matter. I am aware that the Library Service in my constituency is mainly used by elderly people. They are not affluent people or millionaires with big houses; they are mostly people on benefits and income support, and money is not a luxury that they have.

1340. Mr Poots: Absolutely. People whose incomes are just above the level of entitlement to income support miss out on everything. That is an area that we really must look at.

1341. Mr Shannon: Kieran McCarthy is 63 at the minute, but he is chasing 65.

1342. Mr McCausland: He is a very wealthy man.

1343. The Chairman: Let us move on to one of the more youthful Committee members.

1344. Mr K Robinson: Thank you, Chairman. The brown envelope is on its way to you.

1345. Thank you, Minister, for your presentation. I noticed that, in your opening comments, you referred to the Library Service as being a key service that is universal and user driven. You said also that the society that it will serve will be reflected in its provision and that there would be equity of provision across Northern Ireland. Although I welcome those comments, the Committee has concerns about the number of members on the library authority board, about how that board will reflect society, and about the geographical spread from which members will be drawn.

1346. The Bill suggests that the board might have seven to 14 members. The Committee thinks that 20 or 21 might be a more realistic figure, based on the evidence that has been presented to it. We feel that that number would provide a better reflection of urban and rural areas and give a better social and geographical spread that would represent every section of society, whether they have or do not have money, such as those people on the Ards Peninsula to whom Jim Shannon referred.

1347. The Committee is concerned that local representatives — especially when the RPA creates new super councils — ought to be included in the new board. We are grateful that, under the education and library boards, local representation was well reflected and seemed to work well.

1348. Minister, will you review the number of board members? You referred only to audit and finance committees, but, if the board comprises only seven members, by my calculations, three and a half members will be on each committee. That is not an ideal situation. More committees and subcommittees will be required to enable the new authority to operate properly, but there will be too few members. Will you comment on that?

1349. Mr Poots: The original proposal for seven to 14 board members was based on advice given to the Department by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, which makes recommendations for the appointment of boards. That advice indicated that there is strong evidence of greater efficacy of a smaller board. Therefore, it was thought that a figure between seven and 14 would be the best model. I am open to the Committee’s views on the matter, particularly on how we might bring in the local-authority dimension and how we deal appropriately with that issue.

1350. There are questions about whether we should have people from local authorities on the board, which would not reflect the current trend in public appointments, whether we should go down the route of community planning, with special responsibilities associated with the new councils, about how closely the library can be linked with community planning, and whether there is another option.

1351. There needs to be further work carried out in order to identify whether there should be a number of councillors on the board. If there are to be seven councils, that would require seven more councillors. If there are to be 11 or 15 councils, every council would not be represented on the board. Therefore, those issues also have to be taken into account.

1352. The matter is still open for discussion. However, there should be a proper consideration of the community-planning responsibilities that district councils will have, and how that may feed into the library process in local areas.

1353. Mr K Robinson: We are mindful of the situation some years ago when local councillors were removed from the health boards. We are all aware of the disaster that eventually turned out to be. Therefore, that was one of the reasons behind our thinking that the board should have local political representation in order to give them a better steer.

1354. The Committee supports the merit principle, and we think that that is the way to proceed. However, the new library authority is in danger of becoming a rarefied body, in which all the professionals will be knowledgeable in their own particular subject areas, but may be oblivious to the comments that you made in your opening remarks about serving the wider society.

1355. Mr Poots: I am aware that local councillors, in particular, will bring a dimension to public bodies that no one else can — interactivity with the public. Public bodies are supposed to serve public interests, and I am aware of the role that public representatives, and particularly local public representatives, can have in bringing those public interests to mind.

1356. Mr K Robinson: The Committee is keen that the new library authority is structured in such a way as to allow it to operate and engage at a local level in a meaningful way — and I stress the term “meaningful way”. The chief executive designate of the education and skills authority (ESA) has presented its operational structure to the Committee for Education. Will the Minister provide this Committee with a copy of the proposed operational structure for the library authority? Furthermore, will there be a library board or a library committee — subregional, presumably — in each council area under the review of public administration (RPA) proposals?

1357. Mr Poots: Perhaps Irene could update us on that issue.

1358. Ms Knox: Work is currently under way to produce that draft operational structure. It is important that the people on the ground — the chief librarians, assistant chief librarians and other staff — who will need to have buy-in to this new authority, are involved in that process. I am working through that at the moment with them.

1359. I do not envisage that I will be in a position to bring that draft to the Committee until the middle or end of November. However, at the stage when I have a draft that has been discussed with the staff, I am happy to come to the Committee, via the Minister, with proposals for the operational structure of the new authority.

1360. Mr K Robinson: Thank you for that answer. I also thank the Minister for reviewing the timetable. That is helpful to the Committee, and I hope that it will be helpful to the new authority also.

1361. The Chairperson: Ken, you might agree that in a previous evidence session, the Committee did ask the question about the size of the board. There was no evidence presented that suggested that a smaller board would be more efficient.

1362. Mr Jack: We have an article that was written earlier this year by David Nicholl, who is head the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA) in Northern Ireland. It rehearses the arguments regarding the size of boards and makes a strong case for a board having a maximum of 12 members. We can make that article available to the Committee to allow it to consider that point of view.

1363. The Chairperson: I welcome that.

1364. Mr K Robinson: If there is a board of 12 members and a subcommittee of probably six members — and it has to be considered that one or two members could be struck down by illness — how many members will be required to make a quorum? That figure would have to be extremely low. If that is the case, would it have the required representation?

1365. Mr Jack: The quorum would be likely to be low in comparison with the size of quorums of the much larger boards that exist in some bodies in Northern Ireland. However, the quorum would be expected to be approximately half the membership of the board.

1366. Mr K Robinson: I am concerned that people from Belfast area, for instance, would have to travel through Dungiven to get to the new board headquarters in Omagh or Londonderry. Adverse weather conditions, illnesses, and other factors could result in the board being inquorate at that stage.

1367. Mr Jack: One of the issues that Mr Nicholl raised in his article is about the onus on the board members to attend. If there is a small board then there is more of an onus on members to attend.

1368. Mr K Robinson: That does not account for adverse weather or illness. That has been pointed out to us in other places. In fact, the Scottish Executive, as some of us found out recently, have to make special arrangements to make sure that they are quorate for certain bodies.

1369. The Chairperson: We will welcome a copy of Mr Nicholl’s paper.

1370. Mr Brolly: My question is complementary to Ken’s. It is about geographic spread of representation, which raises some concerns. Your officials explained that the way in which the advertisement for the recruitment of board members is framed will be crucial in ensuring that appointments are based on merit, which is good, and that the recruitment documentation will be drawn up in such a way as to attract applications from a wide range of people. There should be something in there about the need to have a good geographic spread of people on the board.

1371. There is no guarantee that we will get people from all areas, and it seems that there is too much reliance being placed on the wording of an advertisement. Will the Minister consider stipulating in the legislation that the board must contain a good mix of people from different areas?

1372. The second question is about accountability prompted by Irene’s mention of consumers, who are a very important part of this. Will there be some mechanism for consumers to feed their views back to the library authority on the library service? Will the Minister consider setting up a users’ forum for the library authority?

1373. Mr Poots: With regard to geographical spread, I think that it comes down to appointment of members. If you do it on merit alone you run into problems, because you have to look at other issues. As far as geographical spread is concerned, that is where liaison with the local authorities or with the representation from local authorities may bring some benefits.

1374. In fact, I had to re-advertise the most recent appointment of new members to the Arts Council of Northern Ireland because, in terms of geographical spread, we did not get further south than Lurgan. There was some representation from Londonderry, but the south and west of the Province was wholly unrepresented, so I asked for those positions to be re-advertised, because of those concerns. Hopefully, applications will come in from those areas, but if they do not, we may have to re-advertise again to ensure that there is some equity across the Province and that things do not become city-centric. People in rural communities remain unrepresented on many of the boards across Northern Ireland. Again, I am not sure that we need legislation. We can have very clear guidelines and principles on a lot of those issues and identify the way forward.

1375. On the suggestion about a users’ forum, I think that that goes back again to community-planning issues that local authorities will be doing. I will be honest with you: I am not sure that we fully understand what community planning means. There are many different interpretations of what community planning might be. It is something for the Department of the Environment (DOE) to tie down, as part of the review of public administration, what community planning is going to mean exactly. I would have thought, Mr Chairman, that the issue that was being referred to with the end-users’ forum it something that is ideally fitted for community planning. That would be the best place for that to come from. I am open to the Committee’s views on that in due course.

1376. The Chairperson: Jim, you had a related question?

1377. Mr Shannon: Mr Chairman, I just want to make one point to the Minister. It is in relation to the number of board members. The reason that the Committee has asked for 20 members is really to do with the practicalities of calling a meeting. No matter how good you are, you can take sick or you can have family engagements. There are distances to cover and weather conditions to contend with. Is it not more sensible to have a committee structured around 20 members so that you can use the councillor-level representation as well as having a geographical spread of representatives, as Francie has said? That would ensure that you have a good mix of people to deliver the services. From a practical point of view, it is more sensible to have 20 members rather than seven or 14. If three people cannot attend, where are you then?

1378. The Chairperson: Nelson, I expect you to stand up for rural areas too.

1379. Mr McCausland: I was going to stand up for equality. What strikes me about representation on public bodies is that the only two bodies that are required by law to be reflective of Northern Ireland society are the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission, which does not speak very well for the requirements of the legislation, as neither body is particularly representative.

1380. However, there is merit in considering wording that says that the board should be reflective of Northern Ireland society, particularly as it is a cultural body, which should reflect our cultural diversity. Although that has not worked in the two cases I mentioned, I believe that it could work.

1381. Mr Poots: In relation to Mr Shannon’s point, it is fairly clear that the Committee wants to move to having a greater number than the one that is currently in the Bill. That will be looked at, but there are issues around having a bigger board.

1382. The old Fire Authority for Northern Ireland, for example, used to have a board, and perhaps the current Fire and Rescue Service Board still does, of around 19, so I will have a look at some of those boards and see how well they operate. I suffered the effects of a large membership when I was Chairman of the Committee of the Centre. A few people thought that, because that was the largest Committee, they did not have to pull their weight. Sometimes in a smaller group people are more focused and determined about the work that they have to do, whereas with a large group people think that someone else will do a job, and it end ups that no one does it.

1383. There are benefits in having a larger group, such as ensuring a quorum. However, I remember, quite often, at 2.00 pm on a Wednesday afternoon, at meetings of the former Committee of the Centre — with a membership of 17 — waiting for five people to turn up so that we could start proceedings. When I sat on the Committee for the Environment there were 11 of us, and it always started on time. People do not always take their responsibilities as seriously when there are others to share the load.

1384. The Chairperson: You could not accuse this Committee of not taking its work seriously, Minister. Wallace, you were going to make a related point.

1385. Lord Browne: It was on the equality issue. This Committee, being all male, is not reflective of females. Will there be any mechanism to ensure that they are equally represented?

1386. The Chairperson: Would you like to put your question about tenure of chair while you have the floor?

1387. Lord Browne: My next point is on the tenure of chair. This Committee, along with the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA), believes that the chair of the board should only be able to hold the post for a maximum of two terms — serving one term and then being re-appointed for a second term. Your officials agree with that, but it is not in the legislation. It is dealt with under the rules of operation of the board. Will the library authority draw up its own rules on the operation of the board, or should that be included in the legislation?

1388. Mr Poots: I thank bachelor Browne for his interest in the fairer sex on the issue of equality. [Laughter.] He obviously wants to keep in with them.

1389. It is probably better if we can set out very clear policies, as opposed to introducing a lot of that into legislation. I personally believe that legislation is not a very manoeuvrable beast; it is a large ship that requires a lot of turning. If policy documents are agreed through a system like this one, with a Minister reporting to a relevant Committee, that introduces a great deal more flexibility. Therefore, if changes happen in the future — and I do not think that there are any prophets in the room — you can address those changes and meet the challenges as they come along, whereas you cannot do that if everything is buried in the legislation..

1390. Mr McNarry: I welcome the Minister. Although it falls to me to say the following, my views are shared with the general consensus of the Committee.

1391. I want to deal with the staff transfer scheme in schedule 2 and then, separately, with start-up costs. Before I begin, I have to say that it is clear that we needed to have a discussion this morning, as well as questions.

1392. You appointed a chief executive designate who is, in turn, appointing designated staff. At the time, I said that that appointment was premature. You now inform us that the new authority will operate in shadow mode, as things have been put back until April 2009. It seems that my case is being made for me. It also appears that you are floating on the issue.

1393. That action introduces more uncertainty. Although it is good to identify issues now, it also explains why the Committee has found itself floating in an atmosphere of uncertainty about where we are going. Perhaps you will deal with our concerns about those shadow arrangements, because we need to know more about them.

1394. At this stage, I will not question your competency — you will make the decision. However, those decisions are bound to involve costs, and you are already frittering away money on a chief executive designate’s salary, and so on

1395. On the issues arising from schedule 2, Minister, your people asked to see the legal advice that we received, and we gladly passed that on. Following a delay, we were informed in a letter from your Department that, despite having received the legal advice, on the basis that the Department was unable to ask for it directly, your people had written to John Corey to request a copy of NIPSA’s advice on schedule 2 from its QC. The Department is now seeking a meeting between the Department’s and NIPSA’s legal advisers in order to discuss the differences in opinions. What possible differences in opinion do your people expect to find between the legal advice that we passed on and that which the Department is requesting now from the same QC— or is that just a delaying tactic?

1396. The letter continues that, until the Department has received the requested information and a follow-up meeting has taken place between NIPSA’s QC and Noel Kelly from the Department, and Noel Kelly has then reported to the Committee, you require more time and will not be able to respond to the Committee’s deadline. That was not really a deadline. It was a simple request, made last week, in order to have the information for today. You have not provided the Committee with any information. How do you expect us to proceed if we cannot investigate what we have identified as a potentially serious issue? Letters such as that cause us to be even more suspicious.

1397. The issue that we have flagged up is a serious contention that if the Bill were to proceed in its current form — and a senior counsel has told the union that is employing him that it would be flawed — there is every likelihood that that union, and perhaps others, will be in the courts.

1398. The Committee is very reluctant to accept only clear and concrete legal advice that we are not going to be agreeing to a Bill in the secure knowledge— or even in the doubting knowledge — that in taking it through the Assembly, it would be walking the Assembly, the Department and everybody into court because of the flaws in the Bill.

1399. It seems to us that this is a very serious issue. Also, Noel Kelly told us that he was right and therefore everyone else was wrong; he is an excellent person and I am not challenging his ability, but that is a concern. The Committee urgently needs to know the Minister’s take on that, in order to decide which legal opinion it accepts — Mr Kelly’s, that of the eminent counsel employed by NIPSA — or if it needs to hire, with public money, an independent legal opinion to explain the situation. That is a very important issue, which I ask the Minister to respond to.

1400. Although the Minister cannot respond to what he calls our deadline, when does he intend to respond to us on the issue, and how does he see the situation between the legal eagles and this Committee panning out? Many witnesses mentioned that there may be problems in categorising the current education and library board staff either as library authority staff or ESA staff because currently some staff salaries are part funded by DCAL and part funded by the Department of Education. How does the Minister intend to deal with that issue? Is it a major issue? Is it a serious issue? Can you expand on that for us?

1401. Mr Poots: I thank the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for his questions; he always adds to the colour of events and it is good to hear from him. Shadow boards do not operate in shadow mode, in the same way that the RPA spoke of putting shadow councils in place for a year. Shadow boards will deal with all the issues put before them and smooth the way so that whenever full responsibilities are transferred to the new board, it should be a seamless operation.

1402. I cannot be accused of creating uncertainty; I was aiming for 1 April 2008. I am no longer aiming for that date is because this Committee has extended its scrutiny process to eight months.

1403. Mr McNarry: So it is our fault?

1404. Mr Poots: I am making it very clear that I was aiming for 1 April 2008, which is now impossible because of the Committee’s decision to opt for an extension and take eight months to go over the legislation.

1405. Mr McNarry: Are you denying that the reason for the Committee needing more time is because of a failure to supply information by the Department, which has led to uncertainty over the legislation?

1406. Mr Poots: The legislation could have been dealt with more quickly — I have laid that fact on the table.

1407. The Chairperson: Minister, are you not being disingenuous? You said that the timetable had slipped prior to the motion for extension, and that it would appear some time between April 2008 and April 2009. You were not proscriptive or specific, but you did suggest that the timetable had slipped prior to the extension motion.

1408. Mr Poots: I certainly had not changed the date from 1 April 2008 at that time — I said that I would consider it. The extension of the Committee Stage from four months to eight months made it impossible for me to proceed before 1 April 2008. I am not taking any responsibility for any additional costs.

1409. Mr McNarry: The Minister should take responsibility for the appointment that he made, which was premature even for April 2008. That is the point that he fails to grasp.

1410. Mr Poots: The appointment was not premature. If you want to go into an operation in a seamless way that does not lead to a staff being undermined, adequate preparations must be made. The Deputy Chairperson may think that it is possible to build a house without any plans — that is not a wise thing to do.

1411. We were putting the plans and processes in place so that we could move forward smoothly and seamlessly, and in a way in which would cause fewest problems to the public and the people who provide the services. As a consequence of the new arrangements, we cannot not now proceed according to those plans. I could have footered around and perhaps suggested a vague date, say in July or October or another time. Instead, I have been very clear and definitive. I have said that the library authority will not be set up in April 2008, but that the date will be moved back a full year until April 2009, and that we will be ready to proceed in April 2009. That may present a challenge for the Department of Education; will it be ready to move with my Department? I remind members that it was the Department of Education that pushed the date back from April 2008 in the first place. However, we will be ready, and a board will be in place. That board will not cost a great deal of money to establish because shadow boards are not expensive to run. Thus, we will be ready to move ahead. I am not delaying or holding back.

1412. As regards the legal advice that was received, Government operate on the basis of legal advice that is provided to them by the Departmental Solicitor’s Office. We have to work within those confines. I have confidence in the Departmental Solicitor’s Office and in the advice that it gives to us. Often, we find that those in the legal profession have differences of opinion with one another. Half a dozen lawyers could be asked for an opinion on a particular case, and half a dozen different opinions would be given. It seems sensible to me to put the unions’ lawyer and the Department’s lawyer into one room to see if they can agree on a position — if that is possible to achieve. That is what we are doing. If an agreed position is reached, we will be in a good position to move forward, and we will report back to the Committee at the earliest opportunity.

1413. The Chairperson: David, are you satisfied with the Minister’s answer?

1414. Mr McNarry: I will not argue too much with him, but I am pleased to hear him say that it seems sensible to put the two lawyers in a room. It is a pity that it did not seem sensible to him a month ago. The problem seems to be that people could not even lift a phone to one another to say that they have a difference of opinion. Instead, an erroneous type of protocol had to be followed. The Minister talks about plans and business management and so on, but there is something lacking in a system if people cannot even lift the phone to talk to one another. Perhaps that is just how things are done.

1415. I also want to take the Minister up on another issue and defend the Committee. This morning, Minister, you announced your decision on the date of the establishment of the library authority. However, when the Committee asked the Assembly for an extension of Committee Stage, it was felt necessary to inform you that the Committee would report as soon as possible; we were informed that you wanted to hear that. Nevertheless, you have not waited for that. Since that day, you have given the Committee no further opportunities to see how it could move the programme on. You have now said to the Committee members that it is OK. Therefore, you have relieved us of the time pressures that were placing on ourselves. We said to you that we would report as soon as possible, but you have made your decision and you were obviously not prepared to wait to see how soon as soon as possible might be.

1416. Mr Poots: I do not assume that the Deputy Chairperson is going to tell me how long a piece of string is.

1417. Mr McNarry: That is an erroneous comment. The phrase “as soon as possible” was recorded in the Hansard report, and you should have allowed us the opportunity to at least try to improve on the matter, which is what we were trying to do.

1418. Mr Poots: I can set definitive dates only on the basis of the last definitive date that was given to me.

1419. The Chairperson: I want to focus Committee members’ minds on start-up costs and estimated savings.

1420. Mr Shannon: Minister, you have given us the start date for the library authority, which is 1 April 2009. Is it fair to assume that now that that date has been confirmed and you have a timescale to work towards, you have some idea of what the predicted savings would be? I appreciate the reply that you gave to the Committee, but it by no means ties down the figures. It refers to a figure over or under £670,000. The Committee is concerned that some of the savings could be made by reducing management-level staff at the boards. I am not sure how that would work. Have some backroom staff perhaps already been paid off? That is a matter of concern to the Committee.

1421. The witnesses who have appeared before the Committee have indicated that redundancy savings are not normally realised for two years.

1422. If that is correct, can you give a more comprehensive figure on what is going on? It has been intimated to the Committee that corporate services will be an ongoing additional cost for the new authority. With all those figures in the melting pot, the Committee deserves and needs an answer on the costs involved. The Committee has written to the Department seeking a breakdown of the estimated savings. Considering that the estimates are not based on specific costings and the amount of savings and staffing structure are unknown, can the Minister inform the Committee of the costs that will be involved?

1423. Mr Poots: The Department stated that it was seeking to achieve savings of £600,000 for 2009-10 and £1·2 million for 2010-11. Mr Shannon is right to state that there is an initial cost to achieving those savings, because redundancy packages usually amount to more than the individual’s annual earnings: a more attractive package will encourage people to consider redundancy. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure can apply for year-end flexible funding, which allows for one-off bids. Therefore, while there are real pressures on this year’s resource budget — and all Departments are finding it difficult — there will be opportunities to introduce funding to the Department through the end-year flexibility, and that money can be used for staff redundancies, for instance. There will be additional costs at the outset, but they will lead to savings in the longer term, and that is what we are looking to achieve.

1424. Ms Knox: If we are to make long-term savings in the administration of the Library Service, we must look at an invest-to-save approach — we must find money through the process that the Minister talked about. The Department must also have the funding required to release the staff at senior levels in current boards who wish to take voluntary redundancy, and that will, therefore, release funding in the longer term. I want to reinvest in front-line services. The whole point of having a single library authority is that we can streamline the administration and release funding into the front line. In order to do that, we must take an initial invest-to-save approach.

1425. Mr Shannon: When do you hope to have more concrete figures? Ms Knox, are you saying that you will not be able to provide us with accurate figures for some time?

1426. Ms Knox: There will have to be consultation with trades unions when the organisational structure is developed, because the new structure may well impact on current staff. Following that process, we will cost the structure, examine what savings can be released and consider how to do that and establish what initial investment will be needed to achieve longer-term savings.

1427. Mr Shannon: I asked my question because the Committee is not convinced that there will be savings: that is our worry. It has been intimated to us — right down the line — that there will be savings, but, from what I hear, I am not sure that there will. We would like to think that there will be.

1428. Mr Poots: The Department of Finance and Personnel has already agreed to the figures that will be involved if we go down that particular route. If we were to move away from those figures, it would only be with the agreement of the Finance Department. I assure the Committee that once the Finance Department thinks that it has got something, it is not keen to return it. Ultimately, savings have to be made, and they cannot be made in front-line services — they must be made through administration. I will be honest: it will cause difficulties, particularly for the people who work in administration, and I have no doubt that the unions will have difficulties with that. However, we, as public representatives, are running the country, and we will have difficult decisions to make. The unions are entitled to make their cases on behalf of the people that they represent, but if there are savings to be made, they will be made in administration and personnel. That is harsh, but it is the reality.

1429. The Chairperson: Does that mean that you will change the explanatory memorandum, Minister?

1430. Mr Poots: In what respect, Chairman?

1431. The Chairperson: I refer to the start-up costs that appear in the explanatory and financial memorandum. Would you like to take up that point, Mr McNarry?

Session 2007/2008

First Report

COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

Report on The Libraries Bill(NIA 5/07)

TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS RELATING TO THE REPORT

Membership and Powers

Powers

Membership

Table of Contents

Appendix 1

Appendix 2

Appendix 3

Appendix 4

Appendix 5

List of AbbreviationsUsed in the Report

Executive Summary

Introduction

Consideration of the Bill

Clause by Clause Consideration of the Bill

Minutes of Proceedings relating to the Report

Thursday, 24 May 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Departmental presentation on draft Libraries Bill

Tuesday, 4 September 2007Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings

1 Libraries Bill

Thursday, 13 September 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 20 September 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 27 September 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 4 October 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 11 October 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 18 October 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 25 October 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 8 November 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 22 November 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 29 November 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 6 December 2007Central Library, Belfast

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 13 December 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 10 January 2008Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 17 January 2008Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

2. Presentation on the Organisational Structures of the Northern Ireland Library Authority

Thursday 24 January 2008Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

4 September 2007

13 September 2007

20 September 2008

27 September 2007

4 October 2007

11 October 2007

18 October 2007

Report on
The Libraries Bill
(NIA 5/07)

TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND
WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS RELATING TO THE REPORT

List of Abbreviations
Used in the Report

Thursday, 24 May 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Tuesday, 4 September 2007
Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 13 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 20 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 27 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 4 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 11 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 18 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 25 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 8 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 22 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 29 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 6 December 2007
Central Library, Belfast

Thursday, 13 December 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 10 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 17 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday 24 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings