Session 2009/2010

Third Report

Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure

Report on the
Committee’s Inquiry into
the funding of the arts in
Northern Ireland

Together with the Minutes of Proceedings, Minutes of Evidence,
Memoranda and written submissions Relating to the Report

Ordered by The Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure to be printed 12 November 2009

Report: NIA 05/09/10R (Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure)

This document is available in a range of alternative formats.
For more information please contact the
Northern Ireland Assembly, Printed Paper Office,
Parliament Buildings, Stormont, Belfast, BT4 3XX
Tel: 028 9052 1078

Membership and Powers

Powers

The Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure is a Statutory Departmental Committee established in accordance with paragraphs 8 and 9 of the Belfast Agreement, Section 29 of the NI Act 1998 and under Assembly Standing Order 48. The Committee has a scrutiny, policy development and consultation role with respect to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure and has a role in the initiation, consideration and development of legislation.

The Committee has the power to:

• consider and advise on Departmental budgets and annual plans in the context of the overall budget allocation;
• approve relevant secondary legislation and take the Committee Stage of primary legislation;
• call for persons and papers;
• initiate inquiries and make reports; and
• consider and advise on matters brought to the Committee by the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

Membership

The Committee has 11 members, including a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson, with a quorum of five members.

The membership of the Committee since 9 May 2007 has been as follows:

Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr PJ Bradley ***
Mr Raymond McCartney **
Mr Francie Brolly
Ms Michelle McIlveen *****
Lord Browne
Mr Ken Robinson *
Mr Trevor Clarke ****

* Mr Ken Robinson replaced Mr David Burnside with effect from 18 June 2007
** Mr Raymond McCartney replaced Mr Paul Maskey with effect from 10 March 2008
*** Mr PJ Bradley replaced Mr Pat Ramsey with effect from 29 June 2009
**** Mr Trevor Clarke replaced Mr Jim Shannon with effect from 15 September 2009
***** Ms Michelle McIlveen replaced Mr Nelson McCausland with effect from 15 September 2009

Table of Contents

Report

Executive Summary

List of recommendations

Introduction

1. Per capita spend on the arts – comparisons with other countries/regions

2. Methods for sourcing additional funding

3. Measuring the economic and social benefits of the arts

4. Distribution of funding

5. Arts funders – comparisons with other regions

6. Art forms not receiving adequate funding

Appendices

1. Minutes of Proceedings

2. Minutes of Evidence

3. List of Written Submissions to the Committee

4. Written Submissions to the Committee

5. List of Witnesses who gave oral evidence to the Committee

6. List of Research Papers

7. Research Papers

8. List of Additional Information considered by the Committee

9. Additional Information considered by the Committee

10. List of Abbreviations

Executive summary

Purpose of the Report

The arts are one of the key spending areas for the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. However, over recent years there has been a growing concern at the relatively low levels of funding to the arts in Northern Ireland as compared to other countries and regions.

In this report, the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure has sought to establish how and to what level the arts are funded in Northern Ireland by the public and private sectors, the impact of this funding, and how monies are allocated across the various art forms.

Main Findings

The Committee came to the conclusion that there is a lack of information regarding how much money the public sector invests in the arts. Research is required to ascertain how much government departments, other than the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, spend on the arts.

In order to increase funding for the arts an inter-departmental approach is required, as the social and economic benefits of the arts meet the objectives of a range of departments.

In relation to allocating existing funding, the Committee came to the view that more money should be spent on community and voluntary arts, given their impact on regenerating communities and providing people with opportunities for participating in arts activities.

The Committee was particularly concerned that arts groups in communities without a history of arts funding should be pro-actively encouraged to access available monies. To this end the Committee recommends that the Start Up programme operated by the Arts Council continues and develops.

List of recommendations

1. We recommend that DCAL undertakes research to ascertain how much money is being spent on the arts by other government departments. This information should be used by DCAL and the Arts Council to gain a wider understanding of where arts funding is currently being targeted and to identify areas which receive little or no funding from any department.

2. We recommend that DCAL works with local councils post-RPA to assist them in reviewing how much they spend on the arts, with a view to ensuring that there is a greater degree of equality in arts provision across the different council areas than exists presently.

3. We recommend that DCAL targets its investment in the arts in such a way as to further embed the arts in people’s everyday lives right across Northern Ireland. The Committee is of the view that greater participation and access to the arts will lead to greater support both among the public and within government for increased funding for the arts.

4. We recommend that DCAL sets up an inter-departmental group on funding for the arts.

5. We recommend that the Arts Council pro-actively seeks out arts organisations that may be eligible for EU funding and assists those organisations in making applications for such funding.

6. We recommend DCAL and the Arts Council work together so that budgets for coming years can be finalised in the January ahead of the new financial year in April, so that arts organisations are given as much prior notice as possible of their funding position.

7. We recommend that DCAL and the Arts Council work with Arts & Business NI to ensure that more support is given to community based arts organisations in terms of accessing private sponsorship.

8. We recommend that the Arts Council increases the level of funding which goes to community arts organisations.

9. We recommend that the Arts Council requires professional arts organisations which it funds to increase the amount of outreach/community work they currently deliver.

10. We recommend that the Arts Council sets up a specific funding programme for community arts organisations that deliver participation opportunities to people living in Super Output Areas ranked in the top 20% of areas of deprivation according to the Northern Ireland Multiple Deprivation Measure.

11. We recommend that the Arts Council increases the current budget for the Start Up programme which will distribute grants to community based groups which have received little or no previous funding from the Arts Council.

12. We recommend that in distributing these funds, the Arts Council pro-actively identifies groups which may be eligible for this funding.

13. We recommend that given its levels of participation, we recommend that the Arts Council increases the level of funding which goes to voluntary arts organisations, such as those involved in amateur drama or the traditional arts.

14. We recommend that in the interests of transparency and fairness, the Arts Council should establish a feedback process for unsuccessful funding applicants to clarify why they did not receive funding.

Introduction

Inquiry Terms of Reference

1. The Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure agreed to conduct an inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland on 8 January 2009. The terms of reference for the inquiry were agreed at the Committee meeting on 29 January 2009.

Terms of Reference for the Funding of the Arts

• To compare the per capita spend on the arts in Northern Ireland with that of other European countries/regions, and to establish the rationale which other countries/regions have used in order to increase their spend on the arts.
• To explore innovative approaches of sourcing additional funding across the arts sector, including reviewing models of best practice that exist elsewhere.
• To carry out a stocktake of the research which has been carried out to date, regarding the measurement of the economic and social benefits of investing in the arts.
• To examine how those organisations which provide public funding to the arts in Northern Ireland allocate their funding across the various art forms, and to consider whether the method of allocation sufficiently takes into account the need to:

a) find a balance between the community and professional arts sectors;

b) target social need;

c) encourage community regeneration; and

d) engage with communities which have historically found it difficult to develop an arts infrastructure and therefore access arts funding.

• To compare those organisations which provide public funding to the arts in Northern Ireland with similar organisations across these islands, in terms of how they allocate funding across the various art forms.
• To consider whether there are any art forms which are currently not receiving adequate funding, given their levels of participation and/or impact with regards to targeting social need and regenerating communities.
• To report to the Assembly making recommendations to the Department and/or others.

The Inquiry Process

2. The Committee made the decision to hold an inquiry into the funding of the arts on 8 January 2009. Advertisements requesting submissions by 27 February 2009 were placed in the local newspapers on 3 February 2009. In addition, the Committee agreed to write to 134 individuals and interest groups, to request submissions on each of the matters included within the terms of reference. A list of those individuals and groups that submitted evidence is attached at Appendix 3.

3. The Committee received 71 submissions and considered oral evidence from 20 key stakeholders, including the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. A list of witnesses who provided oral evidence to the Committee is attached at Appendix 5. Transcripts of the oral evidence sessions are attached at Appendix 2.

4. In addition the Committee received additional information, to further inform the inquiry. A list of the additional information considered by the Committee can be found at Appendix 8. Copies of these additional papers are included at Appendix 9.

5. The Committee also commissioned 9 research papers on funding of the arts:

• The first paper examined the economic and social benefits that can be derived from sport, arts, museums and libraries in both the UK and USA.
• The second paper outlined the decision of the Project Steering Group in relation to the PricewaterhouseCoopers study to abandon Phase 2 of the research into the economic modeling of quantifiable benefits of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure.
• The third paper looked at the funding relationships between the arts and the business sector throughout the regions in the UK and the Republic of Ireland.
• The fourth paper examined the per capita spend on the arts in the UK and Republic of Ireland.
• The fifth paper highlighted the social impacts of the Arts.
• The sixth paper provided details on the levels of funding for arts and culture in various European countries. The paper highlighted individual countries approaches to funding and the mechanisms they use to contribute to the arts and culture.
• The seventh paper addressed further issues regarding per capita spend breakdown in the UK and the Republic of Ireland.
• The eighth paper looked at the auditing and monitoring procedures within the Arts Council of Northern Ireland’s grant management processes.
• Finally, the ninth paper provided further insight into the social impacts of the arts. It considered health, participation amongst those with a disability, and grants awarded by the Heritage Lottery Fund.

Copies of these papers are included in Appendix 7.

6. On 17 September and 1 October 2009 the Committee reviewed the evidence to the inquiry.

7. The Committee considered sections of a draft report at its meetings on 8 October, 15 October, 22 October and 5 November and on 12 November 2009 the Committee agreed its final report and ordered that the report be printed.

Acknowledgements

8. The Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure would like to express and record its appreciation and thanks to all the organisations who contributed to the inquiry.

Chapter 1
Per capita spend on the arts –
comparisons with other countries/regions

Per capita spend figures

9. The Arts Council of Northern Ireland (ACNI) has produced per capita arts spend figures for Northern Ireland. The latest figure available is for 2008/2009 and is £7.58. Northern Ireland has the lowest figure for the UK and Ireland. The figures for the other regions are:

• England - £8.47
• Wales - £10.10
• Scotland - £14.04
• Republic of Ireland - €17.92[1]

10. The figure for Northern Ireland is based only on what the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) spends on the arts, and does not cover capital spend. Funding for the arts from other government departments is not included. The ACNI explained:

For comparative purposes, we agreed with the other arts councils what we would and would not count. None of the other arts councils take into account spend from other Government Departments or local authorities. We are talking about per capita spend from central Government, from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, from DCAL, and from their counterparts in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. Those are the figures that we are using for comparison.[2]

11. The per capita figure produced by the ACNI does not include spend on the arts by local government, the private sector or philanthropic giving/donations. The ACNI told the Committee that it could not provide a figure on the spend on the arts by all government departments and by local councils, and that to do so would require an extensive piece of research.[3]

12. However, the evidence submitted by DCAL, both in writing and orally, questioned the per capita figure produced by the ACNI and its usefulness in understanding funding for the arts in Northern Ireland.

13. In his evidence to the Committee, the Minister queried the value of a figure which does not include all public expenditure on the arts:

The first point is about per capita spend on the arts. Currently, there is no universally accepted indicator of that nature, which creates a difficulty. It is vital that any comparisons made are like for like and that they adequately capture all public expenditure on the arts here and in other jurisdictions . . . In Northern Ireland, however, money may well come in from the Exchequer and be directed into another Department, but still end up by an indirect route being spent on the arts. It is important to take all those factors into account when we are looking at figures . . . .[4]

14. DCAL also made the point that Northern Ireland may have different needs than other regions in terms of the level and scale of arts provision. For example, during oral evidence DCAL officials made the point that the per capita figure for spend on the arts in Scotland (£14.04) includes funding for the Scottish Opera, the Scottish Ballet and the National Theatre of Scotland. Similar institutions do not exist in Northern Ireland, and it was the Department’s view that it is not clear whether Northern Ireland has the capacity for such organisations:

For example, Scotland has the Scottish Ballet and a national theatre. We do not have those, and we do not know whether we could sustain them if we did. If a comparison is undertaken, it is important to understand what is being compared and whether a region such as Northern Ireland needs exactly the same investment as other regions.[5]

Comparisons with other countries/regions

15. The ACNI was of the view that comparisons between spend on the arts in Northern Ireland with other European countries/regions were not feasible. They explained:

It is difficult to directly compare spending on the arts in many European countries and regions with that of the UK. That is because of different systems of support for creative and cultural life and the way in which they are defined in different countries and, even, in different regions of the UK. The ranges of legal structures and cultural policies that exist also have an effect . . .Other European countries have different funding models. For example, many countries, instead of having arm’s-length bodies, have ministries of culture that directly fund museums and heritage organisations and perhaps national companies. However, those ministries tend not to fund the independent arts sector, including the community and voluntary sectors. Therefore, it is difficult to draw comparisons with other European countries.[6]

16. The Arts Council of Ireland was of the same view, and made the point that:

To compare the way in which different jurisdictions fund the arts is like comparing apples and oranges.[7]

17. This view was backed up by a research paper commissioned by the Committee. That paper made the point that in most countries spend on culture only refers to contributions made by the culture ministry, and that there is a lack of a coherent definition of culture. Comparisons are further hampered by the fact that most European countries/regions present spend on the arts in terms of a percentage of GDP, rather than by using a per capita spend figure.[8]

18. Based on the evidence presented, the Committee came to the view that there is a lack of clarity regarding the amount of funding which is spent on the arts in Northern Ireland. It is not currently known how much local councils and the various departments spend on the arts. Given that there is considerable variation between local councils in terms of their arts budgets, there is perhaps the opportunity to leverage more funding from the arts through this source. This option could be explored as part of the Review of Public Administration. This point was made by Voluntary Arts Ireland who suggested:

We also recommend that the Department grasp the opportunity presented by the review of public administration (RPA) . . . There may be an opportunity for the Department, when looking at moving funding across to local authorities, to encourage them to match that and encourage some sort of continuity or consistency across the different local authorities, because it will vary. It can be quite random what is done in one area compared to another.[9]

19. The FLGA also drew attention to the variation in spend between the 26, soon to be 11, local councils:

There are 26 local authorities, each of which operates in a different way . . . Some councils do not place as high a value on the arts. I cannot speak for them, but that is an area of concern for all of us and for the Committee . . . Per capita spend ranges from £30 down to 37p in certain areas. The range is colossal.[10]

20. The Arts Council provided details of its most recent local authority arts expenditure survey from 2006/2007. The per capita spend per council is set out in the table below:

Council	Per capita spend
Belfast	£28.94
Cookstown	£24.22
Armagh	£23.37
Lisburn	£16.58
Strabane	£14.68
Fermanagh	£11.62
Coleraine	£8.94
Newry and Mourne	£8.30
Antrim	£8.17
Moyle	£7.97
Newtownabbey	£7.77
Ballymoney	£7.65
Down	£7.62
Omagh	£6.74
Craigavon	£6.66
Derry	£5.84
North Down	£3.58
Dungannon and South Tyrone	£3.50
Ards	£3.49
Ballymena	£3.44
Banbridge	£3.38
Limavady	£2.11
Carrickfergus	£1.82
Larne	£1.58
Castlereagh	£1.08
Magherafelt	£0.37

21. Based on the evidence presented the Committee makes the following recommendations:

We recommend that DCAL undertakes research to ascertain how much money is being spent on the arts by other government departments. This information should be used by DCAL and the Arts Council to gain a wider understanding of where arts funding is currently being targeted and to identify areas which receive little or no funding from any department.

We recommend that DCAL works with local councils post-RPA to assist them in reviewing how much they spend on the arts, with a view to ensuring that there is a greater degree of equality in arts provision across the different council areas than exists presently.

Rationale used by other countries/regions to increase funding

22. The Committee acquired information on two different regions which have in the recent past increased their funding of the arts. The Committee obtained information relating to the Republic of Ireland from the Arts Council of Ireland, and information on Liverpool through a study visit as part of the inquiry.

23. The Arts Council of Ireland was of the view that in its case, the growth in funding for the arts had resulted from investing in the arts at a grass roots or community level. In the 1980s the Arts Council of Ireland undertook a capital development programme which focused on every town having its own arts centre. In its view this led to a normalisation of spend on the arts, as the arts became embedded in people’s every day lives. It explained:

Back in the 1980s, rather than simply sending the arts on tour by having shows touring around the country, we decided to also build up an indigenous arts community or arts practice in every town and village. That was done so that every county, town or village would have its own artist and its own very particular and distinctive type of artistic impression. That is where it started; I do not think that there have been any simple and immediate, or expedient and pragmatic arguments made. I really believe that the arts must be embedded into the society in which people spend their day-to-day lives.[11]

24. The Arts Council of Ireland further made the point that public support is crucial for the arts to be able to attract funding:

Investment comes from the taxpayer and is guarded and administered by politicians. Investment will not be made unless the body politic really believes that the arts is important to people’s day-to-day lives. Our argument is based on those beliefs and values.[12]

25. In addition, the economic value of the arts in terms of the creative industries, cultural tourism, and their role in attracting foreign investment have also been put forward as reasons to fund the arts in the Republic of Ireland:

. . . the most recent Fáilte Ireland report indicates that that industry is worth €5·1 billion. An industry that is worth €5·1 billion is riding on public investment of about €80 million, which represents very good value for money. Furthermore, such an international reputation brings in foreign investment also . . . It is difficult to measure, but there is no doubt that, according to visitor surveys, it appears that people do not come here for the weather. They come here because they have built up an expectation from the films and television programmes that they have seen. One of the key things about tourism is that it has to deliver on that expectation. Therefore, traditional music sessions — whether in the pub, the club or outdoors — are important. The fact that it is a living tradition is critical . . . As well as making sense for lots of intrinsic reasons, it makes economic sense that, if you want to attract and retain inward investment, culture is one of the pieces of the jigsaw.[13]

26. During its evidence, the ACNI also referred to the economic arguments put forward in the Republic of Ireland for investing in the arts:

Culture was seen as a driver of the wider economy, and the investment that was made in arts and culture was regarded by successive Governments as a proud example of a mature and culturally confident society on a world stage.[14]

27. In the case of Liverpool, the Committee was informed that the impetus behind the city’s bid for the Capital of Culture title 2008, which required a significant expenditure on the arts, was both to boost the economy and tourism, and as a way to regenerate communities. The Lord Mayor of Liverpool quoted research which claims that being capital of culture generates 14,000 new jobs for a city and attracts £2 million in investment.

28. In terms of how more money could be levered for the arts in Northern Ireland, the Minister told the Committee that he recognised the many benefits of the arts:

It is clear that there is much support for the arts sector and a genuine desire to ensure that appropriate levels of funding are allocated to the arts to enable the sector to continue to grow and develop. It is also apparent that there is widespread recognition of the many benefits to be gained from such funding. The arts and creative sectors contribute to the cultural, social and economic life of all the people of Northern Ireland. In addition, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) estimates that more than 36,300 people were employed in the creative industries or creative occupations in Northern Ireland in 2007. That equates to 4·6% of the workforce, which demonstrates the significance of the creative sector. It has been recognised for some time that the most prosperous economies are characterised by a strong creative sector. Creativity generates innovation, and the two are inseparable. In turn, innovation drives productivity by introducing new and higher value added products and processes, leading, ultimately, to wealth creation.[15]

29. However, the Minister made the point that resources were limited and that DCAL has to compete against other departments in terms of budgets:

I recognise that we have a responsibility to make the case for the importance of arts funding. However, it would be unrealistic to do so without recognising the very tight public expenditure conditions in which we currently work. We are competing with other Departments for scarce resources and we need to be realistic as to what we can achieve and deliver.[16]

30. On the basis of the evidence presented the Committee makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that DCAL targets its investment in the arts in such a way as to further embed the arts in people’s everyday lives right across Northern Ireland. The Committee is of the view that greater participation and access to the arts will lead to greater support both among the public and within government for increased funding for the arts.

Chapter 2
Methods for sourcing
additional funding

Encouraging more private sector investment

31. During the course of the inquiry the Committee discovered that arts organisations in Northern Ireland are already using a range of different methods to try to obtain funding in addition to what they receive from the public purse.

These methods include:

• Private sponsorship
• Box office income
• Membership schemes
• Fund raising events
• Social enterprise
• Trading

32. Arts & Business NI in their evidence to the Committee made the point that there is the potential to increase the level of philanthropic giving, gift aid, and business support for the arts. However, levering this suppport requires time and resources:

. . . there is definitely an opportunity around trusts and foundations. The key factor in that regard is the lack of staff in Northern Ireland and the lack of time.[17]

33. In relation to community arts organisations, Arts & Business NI were of the view that the opportunities were there:

There is a lot of potential — particularly in community areas — to engage with communities and businesses in those regions. With the right skills, training and resources, arts organisations and community organisations can still get a return.[18]

34. However, community arts groups told the inquiry that they needed more help to access private funding. Such groups usually do not have the staff to be able to devote time to sourcing potential sponsorship. Mid Armagh Community Network explained the difficulties:

Some local businesses may sponsor a cup for a competition, but, beyond that, we have not had a great response from private sponsors.[19]

35. ArtsEkta were of the view that more support was needed from government to help them access private sector sponsorship:

If bodies such as Arts and Business, the Arts Council or DCAL openly acknowledge that some arts organisations are carrying out events that could be of benefit to businesses, that is an endorsement that could possibly lead to arts organisations receiving greater support from the business sector. Arts & Business tends to rely on us doing all the work and it then supports us, but another side to its work should be to present opportunities to businesses.[20]

36. New Lodge Arts were of a similar opinion:

An increase in the lobbying of potential funders might help. Perhaps the Department could meet prospective funders and provide opportunities for them to meet representatives of the sector to find out more about the potential benefits to them. It has been extremely difficult for us as a small organisation.[21]

37. Given the evidence presented, the Committee makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that DCAL and the Arts Council work with Arts & Business NI to ensure that more support is given to community based arts organisations in terms of accessing private sponsorship.

The need for a cross departmental approach

38. In terms of new ways of obtaining additional funds, many arts organisations suggested that there needed to be more emphasis on departments other than DCAL investing in the arts. A number of organisations made the point that the work they carry out meets the objectives of a range of departments. For example, ArtsEkta said:

As I said, we do all sorts of cultural diversity and section 75 work. It has been quite a challenge for our organisation to go to the racial equality unit here and request core funding. We do not meet its requirements, as it does not fund any arts projects. It pushes us towards the NI Arts Council, which has recently given us project funding.[22]

39. The lack of recognition by other departments of how arts organisations are relevant to their priorities was also mentioned by Féile an Phobail:

There are massive tourism and social-development aspects of our programme, yet we receive little or no support from DSD. We have brought up the matter locally and at MLA level, but we have had no joy in getting what we should receive.[23]

40. Belfast Community Circus School also emphasised the cross-departmental value of its work:

There needs to be connectivity. What we are going to be contributing to Northern Ireland’s economy and society will meet the Department of Education’s objectives for youth work; the Department for Social Development’s objectives for community and capacity building; and tourism objectives. Therefore, responsibility should not fall to simply the Arts Council.[24]

41. There was a strong feeling among those who gave evidence to the inquiry that DCAL should set up an inter-departmental group to encourage other departments to invest in the arts. This point was made by the FLGA, Belfast Community Circus School, Young at Art, New Lodge Arts, the Lyric Theatre, ArtsEkta, Féile an Phobail, and the Community Arts Forum.

42. ArtsEkta were of the view that a cross-departmental strategy or policy could lead to more funding for the arts overall:

Along with the arts sector, the Arts Council could be lobbying for an inter-departmental arts policy across all Departments. If every Department were to have a ring-fenced budget for the arts, that would help to increase the per capita spend on arts in the region.[25]

43. CAF put forward a similar argument:

If there were a cross-departmental policy, such as those of the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety (DHSSPS), every Department would have some responsibility for the delivery of the arts and for supporting the arts. There should be some acknowledgement and recognition that the arts have an impact on all areas of Government. Therefore, all Departments should have responsibility for the arts, and it should not fall back solely on DCAL.[26]

44. Voluntary Arts Ireland highlighted the fact that other departments have much larger budgets at their disposal compared to DCAL. Therefore, if these departments could be persuaded to spend even a very small percentage of their budget on the arts, this could pay significant dividends:

It is not a magic answer, but, in most cases, the other Departments to which we talk have budgets that are enormous compared to the culture budget. To lever out a small part of such a budget is of benefit to the arts as a whole and to the work of the Culture Department.[27]

45. The Lyric Theatre made the point that a cross-departmental strategy would also help to raise the profile of the arts and embed them in people’s everyday lives:

The Arts Council, the Government and the media need to find a combined approach, through joined-up thinking, and develop a strategy to increase the profile of the arts throughout society. They need to help people to realise how it affects them on every level.[28]

46. When questioned on this topic the Arts Council were not averse to the idea of a cross-departmental strategy for the arts, but cautioned that other departments needed to bring funding to the table:

We believe that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL), which is our parent Department, should lead the co-ordination of funding. I add a note of caution in that looking at the arts without additional funding may not bring about the result that we need, which is more funding. The establishment of an interdepartmental co-ordinating mechanism needs to come with a commitment to increase funding.[29]

47. The Minister’s view was that although there is no cross-departmental strategy for the arts, DCAL does work with other departments on specific projects:

At present, there is not a cross-departmental or formal strategy for the arts. Having said that, however, as members will be aware, the Department works with other Departments on various initiatives that support the arts sector, an example of which is the Re-imaging Communities programme, in which the Department for Social Development, the Department of Education, the International Fund for Ireland and the PSNI are all involved. There are many examples of cross-departmental working.[30]

48. However, the clear view coming from the arts sector is that they believe a formalised cross-departmental approach to the arts would bring benefits, and that an ad hoc approach regarding certain projects was not sufficient. On the basis of the evidence presented, the Committee therefore makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that DCAL sets up an inter-departmental group on funding for the arts.

The need for longer funding cycles

49. Arts organisations were of the view that one method of assisting their financial situation would be to change the length of funding cycles. At present funding is awarded by the Arts Council on a 1-year basis, with some organisations being given an indicative budget for 3-years. However, some arts organisations reported that a 3-year cycle was not long enough. Féile an Phobail explained:

Equally, however, Féile an Phobail’s long-term objectives are not helped by the current funding arrangements, which mean that the longest that we can plan to fund certain posts for is three years. That does not help us to achieve a five- or 10-year plan, which féile and other festivals across the city and beyond hope to implement, so that we can help to stimulate tourism and community regeneration.[31]

50. Similarly CAF said:

We also recommend that, in consultation with the arts sector, DCAL and ACNI should develop and implement a long-term funding strategy and introduce appropriate five- to 10-year funding programmes. That would help support stability and sustainability in the sector. Arts Council funding packages are for three years, and, even within that, it is necessary to reapply year on year.[32]

51. Other organisations made the point that although they were awarded 3-year funding in principle, in reality funding was only confirmed on an annual basis. The Lyric explained:

We are part of a three-year funding programme with the Arts Council, but it is three-year funding in name only, because the Arts Council is wholly reliant on funding from the Department that is provided on a yearly basis.[33]

52. The Arts Council’s evidence backed up this point, as they explained:

On the Exchequer side of the house, we admit three-year clients to give them a modicum of stability. We ask for a three-year programme of activity, and each year we ask them to give us the programme for the next year. As the Committee knows, the confirmation of our funding comes on an annual basis only. Often, our funding decisions are not confirmed until February . . . However, the sad reality is that that is the way that Government funding works and we can only pass on what we have. We have tried to move to three-year funding.[34]

53. The Minister confirmed that DCAL can only confirm budgets on a 1-year basis:

The Department is tied into the wider public expenditure process, which means that its budgets are confirmed for one year only and it cannot give formal commitments outside that. I do not know whether there is scope for the Arts Council to do something on the basis of a semi-formal understanding.[35]

54. The Minister also made the point that the downside to a 3-year or longer funding commitment is that there is less flexibility and scope for new organisations to receive funding for the first time:

A difficulty with three-year funding is that it commits large amounts of money and smaller organisations that are trying to get in for the first time can have some difficulty. Longer-term funding has pros and cons that need to be considered carefully.[36]

55. The Committee understood both arts organisations’ frustrations at only being able to plan spend one year ahead, but at the same time is cognisant of the fact that departmental budgets are only confirmed on an annual basis. However, the Committee would like to see DCAL and the Arts Council working together to ensure that decisions on a coming year’s budget are taken at as early a stage as possible. On the basis of the evidence presented, the Committee therefore makes the following recommendation:

We recommend DCAL and the Arts Council work together so that budgets for coming years can be finalised in the January ahead of the new financial year in April, so that arts organisations are given as much prior notice as possible of their funding position.

Access to EU funding

56. In terms of accessing more funding, some arts organisations were of the view that EU funds were a potential source of untapped resources. However, these organisations stated that they require more assistance and guidance from the Arts Council in terms of accessing this money. For example, Belfast Community Circus School made the following point:

It is rather sad that the Arts Council does not play a proactive role in identifying any funding outside its own remit. Sadly, we have probably missed a lot of boats in respect of European funding. Certainly, if one looks across at Gateshead and Newcastle, their cultural renaissance was brought about through a combination of the National Lottery and Government agencies linking in with European moneys; whereas, over here, we have, apparently, an expert on European funding in the Arts Council, but that has never seen results . . . My point is that, in essence, applying for European funding will be complicated and complex, and, without any support and guidance, scary . . We need someone with expertise to sit down with groups and explain how the application process works.[37]

57. The Committee received correspondence from the Arts Council at a late stage of the inquiry process (29 October 2009) on what it is doing to assist local arts groups access the €400 million EU Culture Programme Fund. The Committee was concerned that the Arts Council had only invited 12 groups to an event on 06 October 2009 promoting the Culture Programme. Given the current constraints on departmental budgets, the Committee thinks it is vital that alternative sources of funding for the arts in Northern Ireland should be fully explored. It therefore makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that the Arts Council pro-actively seeks out arts organisations that may be eligible for EU funding and assists those organisations in making applications for such funding.

Chapter 3
Measuring the economic and
social benefits of the arts

The ValCAL study

58. It is widely accepted that investing in the arts has a range of benefits on very many different fronts. PricewaterhouseCoopers (PWC) in their evidence to the inquiry summarised these impacts as follows:

The arts have an economic development impact through direct employment and income. Earlier, members talked about the spend that is associated with people going out for a night to an arts event, or a community arts festival that brings people together, as a result of which people spend more money in the shops. There is a tourism impact. The arts have the potential to attract visitors to the area, and there is strong evidence that tourists come to Northern Ireland to visit its arts venues and festivals. There is an education impact. The arts contribute to the education sector and therefore, in relation to public spending, save the public purse by adding to the quality of the education system. There is a health impact as well . . . The final area of impact is social inclusion and community cohesion, including, potentially, a reduction in crime.[38]

59. It was against this recognition of the value of the arts, among the other activities funded by DCAL, that the Department commissioned PWC to carry out a study of the social and economic value of its business areas. This study was completed in 2007 and is entitled “Research into the Social and Economic Value of Culture, Arts and Leisure in Northern Ireland" (known as the ValCAL Study).

60. During the oral evidence sessions, PWC explained the background to the study:

The study was trying to see if there is a model that can demonstrate impact. For example, if the Department puts £X million into a particular project or programme, what jobs, employment and income — what economic measurables — will that produce?[39]

61. However, the ValCAL Study did not proceed beyond phase 1 because it became apparent that there was a lack of sufficient data to carry out a meaningful assessment of the economic and social benefit of investment. As PWC said:

We discovered that there is not a lot of information available about some of the economic impacts that would allow us to build a model.[40]

62. Departmental officials in their evidence to the inquiry backed this up, setting out the obstacles as follows:

. . . it was felt from the evidence that was presented in the phase 1 report that there was not sufficiently robust data to allow us to go forward and produce an economic model that we could stand over.[41]

Other evidence

63. In their written submissions, arts organisations referred to numerous studies which attempt to measure or quantify the impact of investment in the arts. For example, the Lyric Theatre referred to economic studies carried out on itself and the Grand Opera House:

KPMG and the Arts Council of Northern Ireland carried out economic studies on both the Lyric Theatre and the Grand Opera House. There is evidence to suggest that every £1 of funding that the Arts Council invests in the Lyric Theatre generates £3·25 in the local economy. That is a significant economic driver. The Grand Opera House is an economic generator, because it contributes more than £5 to the local economy for every pound that it receives in public subsidies.[42]

64. The Lyric Theatre referred to the economic importance of the creative industries:

Of Northern Ireland’s population, 4·6% — about 33,000 people — are currently employed in the creative industries, which puts them on a par with agriculture. That compares with the average of 6·8% for the rest of the UK. In an Assembly debate on 9 October 2007, the then Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Edwin Poots, reported that emulation of what was occurring in the rest of the UK could potentially generate the substantial figure of a further 11,000 new jobs in the creative industries in Northern Ireland.[43]

65. The FLGA also flagged up the role of creative industries in the economy going forward:

I notice that the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts has said that the creative industries are predicted to be a major high- growth contributor to the UK economy in the next five years. That information was published on 9 March, so its facts are up to date. That organisation says that, on average, creative industries are set to grow by 4%, which is more than double the rate of the rest of the economy. By 2013, the number of creative businesses is likely to have risen from 157,000 to 180,000, with employment of 1·3 million people, thus outstripping the financial sector.[44]

Difficulties in measuring economic and social benefits

66. Despite the various studies referred to above, it is clear that there are problems in measuring the effectiveness or impact of a particular piece of artistic endeavour. The Lyric Theatre stated:

We achieve a lot, but our achievements are difficult to put down on paper. Nowadays, people require facts and figures. They want to know how many people watched a play, but one cannot make value judgements about how effective a play is or how it affected those who viewed it.[45]

67. Féile an Phobail also referred to the problems of measuring benefits, particular on the individual:

Measuring the exact impact of community events is a grey area. I have not heard of anyone — from here to the States — who has been able to do that. It is hard to measure the social impact of the arts, particularly on individuals.[46]

68. This point was backed up in the research papers provided to the Committee by Assembly Research Services. During an oral evidence session, the researcher explained the problems of quantifying both economic and social benefits:

Impacts such as community cohesion, education, reduction in crime and social inclusion are complicated to quantify. The difficulty with these impacts is their nebulous nature. With many of these impacts, the benefits cannot be measured initially or in financial terms. Any benefits derived are more likely to be seen at a local and community level, rather than providing an overarching regional benefit. It is more appropriate to provide benefit ratios for types of projects and initiatives, but it is not appropriate to estimate the benefit ratio of funding at the individual community and regional levels. The data is either not available or does not lend itself to analysis at those levels.

Economic impact analysis is concerned with identifying and measuring the changes that occur, or would be likely to occur, in an economy as a direct or indirect result of a new public and private initiative. Indirect costs and benefits can prove more difficult to evaluate, particularly if they have no market price. A cost-benefit analysis attempts to determine the value of an activity to society as a whole. That economic methodology sees the social value of an activity as based on individual valuations of that activity, with a focus on economic efficiency.[47]

Lack of resources required to measure impact

69. In addition to the methodological issues, a number of arts organisations made the point that measuring the impact of their activities would require resources which they do not have. For example, the Ulster Orchestra stated:

I can only offer anecdotal evidence. We do not have the resource to follow that up in a scientific way. It would be wonderful to take a large sample of pupils and follow them from Key Stage 1 through to the end of their education and into their working life in order to see how many people stay with us.[48]

70. Féile an Phobail made a similar point:

It is a matter of funding — we would love to do another economic audit of our annual festival programme, but it comes down to whether we put funding towards a festival or towards an economic audit.[49]

71. In his evidence to the Committee, the Minister also referred to the cost of carrying out the necessary research to measure the impact of the arts:

However, there is no commonly agreed approach to the measurement of that, nor is there an accepted multiplier that can easily be applied to capture direct and indirect employment and productivity effects. That lack of a commonly agreed approach has been widely recognised, and to attempt to assess the impact at a Northern Ireland level would require a bank of relevant data to be collected, which would then need to be built up and quality assured. That would take time to construct and would require additional resources.[50]

72. Based on the evidence, the Committee came to the conclusion that there is a lack of specific research about the benefit of the arts in Northern Ireland. However, there are problems both in capturing and analysing the data, particularly in relation to the benefits of the arts at a community or individual level. At the same time, any research which could be produced will be of benefit in terms of making the case, particularly to government departments outside DCAL, of the clear benefits of investing in the arts.

Chapter 4
Distribution of funding

Balance of funding between community and
professional arts

73. Stakeholders made the point that there are overlaps between professional and community arts. Professional organisations do some work in communities, and some community groups would describe their work as highly professional.

74. For example, Voluntary Arts Ireland stated:

. . . as regards the arts in general, there is no clear distinction between the voluntary, community and professional arts. There is a lot of overlap, with the big beasts of the jungle and the insects all totally reliant on each other . . . professional arts could not survive without amateurs. Many professionals start as amateurs and many amateur groups employ professionals. That is an important part of the arts ecology.[51]

75. Similarly, the Ulster Orchestra made the point:

Our prime purpose is to be an excellent classical symphony orchestra and to have excellent access and outreach — one informs the other. We cannot have a true community arch without a centre of excellence.[52]

76. The Arts Council backed up the view that professional and community arts are intertwined:

The reality of artistic practice over the past 20 years or so has meant that the distinctions between the different branches of the arts, including community and professional arts, have lost much of their definition and significance. They are much more fluid. Many practitioners would no longer recognise themselves as belonging to fixed categories of artistic practice.

Many who work in communities describe themselves as highly professional, and that is a view to which we also subscribe. Professional artists of a high calibre also work in various community contexts.[53]

77. Furthermore, the Arts Council were of the view that professional organisations had begun to take a more serious interest in undertaking community based work in the recent past:

Over the past six or seven years, I have discerned a trend of change in the orientation of many arts organisations and a recognition that they need to go in and work in local communities. Education, outreach and access are not simply bolted on by organisations; they take that seriously, and we have encouraged them to do so for a long time.[54]

78. In relation to the question of how funding is distributed, the Arts Council told the inquiry that 20% of their funding goes on community art. However, various community arts groups which presented evidence to the inquiry stated that only 9% of the Arts Council’s budget goes towards community arts. The Arts Council provided the following explanation for the discrepancy in the figures:

The Arts Council disputes the figure of 9%. In my role in the Arts Council, I have a portfolio of clients who are classified as community arts clients. That is not to say that other organisations that funded through the arts councils do not carry out community arts activity. I assume that the figure of 9% is drawn from the portfolio that I look after as regards the Annual Support for Organisations Programme. Therefore, the figure of 9% is not a clear one. A number of organisations do not sit in my portfolio for operational reasons but do carry out community arts activity. For example, the Crescent Arts Centre in Belfast, Best Cellars Music Collective, which is based in east Belfast, and the Playhouse in Derry/Londonderry. They would see themselves as delivering community arts activity, but they do not sit in the community arts portfolio. Therefore, the grant, or the moneys, that we award them, would not have been calculated in that figure of 9%.

The figures in that breakdown show that in 2008-09, community arts were receiving around 20% of the grants that we gave out. [55]

79. In terms of other public funders of the arts, Belfast City Council allocated 46% of its budget to community arts groups:

Some 54% of arts programme funding goes to professional arts organisations, and 46% goes to community-driven schemes, which reach participants on the ground. Therefore, a good balance has been created.[56]

80. However, the community arts organisations which presented evidence to the Committee were strongly of the view that more funding needed to be invested in community arts. This point was made by Greater Shantallow Community Arts, Arts Ekta, and CAF among others who stated that community arts have a tangible outcome in terms of regenerating communities and transforming individuals’ prospects and opportunities.

81. Based on the evidence presented, the Committee makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that the Arts Council increases the level of funding which goes to community arts organisations.

82. When questioned by the Committee, the Minister made the point that because many professional groups in receipt of funding do community work, it is not possible to define spend on community arts as simply money allocated directly to community groups:

However the fusing of these sectors (professional and community arts) means that efforts to assess the actual spend on the community arts sector are more complex than a simple and crude assessment of funding to those organisations formally classified as the community arts sector.[57]

83. The Ulster Orchestra was one of those professional groups who provided information on the community outreach work it is involved in:

Although it is hard to give a number, there are probably 20 people constantly involved in that work. Sometimes we pull in other people for bespoke projects. However, close to a third of the orchestra is heavily committed to that work on an ongoing basis.

Everyone is involved when we stage full orchestra concerts as part of our outreach work for the education boards. However, at the individual level, people must want to do such work and be comfortable doing it. It is not what they were trained to do.

Some years ago, we went down the route of attempting to get everyone to do education work by making it part of the contract. However, someone is employed by the orchestra, in the first instance, because he or she is a wonderful clarinet player or trumpet player. That person might be death in a classroom and not suited to such work.[58]

84. While the Committee welcome the work currently being carried out by professional organisations, it believes there is scope for more initiatives in this area.

85. Based on the evidence presented, the Committee makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that the Arts Council requires professional arts organisations which it funds to increase the amount of outreach/community work they currently deliver.

Funding to target social need

86. In their evidence to the inquiry, the Arts Council stated that they give 56% of their total funding to the 20% most deprived communities in Northern Ireland. In doing so, they claim they are working in such a way as to target social need. They stated:

The Arts Council is conscious of its obligation to target social need, and 56% of its funding goes to the 20% most deprived communities in Northern Ireland.[59]

87. However, a number of groups challenged the figures presented by the Arts Council and claimed that the methodology used to produce them is flawed. The Arts Council confirmed that the figures are based on the postcode of where the organisation in receipt of the funding is located.

88. Belfast Community Circus School made the point that this meant that funding for the Grand Opera House, which is located in a deprived area by postcode, would be included in these figures, despite the fact that its ticket prices would suggest that it is more likely to attract audiences from more affluent areas.[60]

89. Greater Shantallow Community Arts made a similar point in relation to funding for the arts in its area:

As of yesterday, the Arts Council’s website suggested that 97% of funding awarded in the Derry City Council area through the Arts Council’s programmes has gone directly to Londonderry’s most deprived areas. That leads me to ask — is our city centre deprived? It must be, because 97% of funding went to organisations based in the city centre.[61]

90. There did not seem to be any consensus within the arts sector on whether the Arts Council is distributing funding in a way which adequately takes account of targeting social need. While the Arts Council explained that they do give additional scores to applications from organisations who are operating in an area of social need, it does not appear that the Arts Council is actively seeking to fund a certain number of projects or allocate money to groups in areas identified as TSN areas.

91. Based on the evidence presented, the Committee makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that the Arts Council sets up a specific funding programme for community arts organisations that deliver participation opportunities to people living in Super Output Areas ranked in the top 20% of areas of deprivation according to the Northern Ireland Multiple Deprivation Measure.

Engagement with communities without a history of arts funding

92. The Committee heard evidence from three groups which reported that communities such as theirs without a history of accessing arts funding had found it difficult to break into the funding world. These groups were Cairncastle LOL, the Mid Armagh Community Network and the Ulster Scots Community Network.

93. Cairncastle LOL reported that until recently they had been unaware that that the Arts Council could fund small organisations like themselves:

We talked to the Arts Council this year, which was the first time. We never realised that the Arts Council could fund us.

It was only through luck that I got on to the Arts Council for Northern Ireland, which does not seem to sell itself. We attended a number of roadshows for funding bodies, but the Arts Council has never been represented.

We had not realised that the Arts Council could fund us. We thought that the Arts Council awarded grants of £50,000, £60,000 or £100,000 and that it was interested only in the more upmarket projects, not the grass roots.

We are just country folk who are trying to find our way. We need an organisation such as the Arts Council to work with us, advise us and point us in the right direction.[62]

94. Mid Armagh Community Network stated that they had found it difficult to build a relationship with the Arts Council, and that they felt that the needs of their group are not understood well:

In the early years, we found that a community group from a Protestant area was viewed with suspicion, because there was no history of community- group organisations in those areas, and that probably hindered us to some degree.

It is important for the organisation that funds any group to keep an eye on what that group is doing. A relationship should grow up between the two and there needs to be familiarity. We have extended invitations for various events at which we performed, including our annual concert. The response of the Arts Council in attending those showcase events was pretty poor.

. . . there is an onus on the Arts Council to be proactive in how it promotes the funding that it can make available, especially to Ulster-Scots groups. Perhaps it is down to a lack of awareness; groups may think that they cannot apply for funding because they do not realise what is there to be attained.[63]

95. The Ulster Scots Community Network supported the view put forward by Cairncastle LOL and the Mid Armagh Community Network that the Arts Council needed to do more to advertise its existence to those groups outside the funding circle. In their view the Arts Council should take a more pro-active strategic role and identify groups who need funding and help them make the applications:

The network receives funding from the Arts Council, but we need a more strategic and proactive approach from the Arts Council. In working with it, we are trying to build that relationship to our mutual benefit.

The major difficulty is that Ulster-Scots community groups have started from a low level . . . The groups lack the capacity, confidence and ability to tackle the major funding streams. The expertise does not exist on the ground to apply for the £30,000, £40,000 and £50,000 Arts Council projects.[64]

96. CAF, which is the umbrella organisation for community arts groups, argued that it is challenging for new groups to obtain funding for the first time because they are competing against well-established groups who know the system. They explained:

I will talk about some of the obstacles that groups face accessing funding. The Arts Council of Northern Ireland (ACNI) is the main source of funding for the arts in Northern Ireland. Competition for those funds is very high. It can often be difficult for new and community-based groups to compete for funding with well-established arts groups that have been working for many years.[65]

97. In their evidence to the Committee, the Arts Council said that they recognised the difficulties for new groups, particularly for those who were located in communities without a strong arts infrastructure. In response to this need they have run the Start Up programme:

The STart UP programme was originally funded by DSD under its renewing communities programme, whereby we had £100,000 for a one-year programme; through our officers we provided developmental support and 100% grant aid to local organisations.

DSD funding ceased. However, we have found a small budget from our 2009-2010 resources and intend to resume that funding to seed-fund small organisations, which could move on to other schemes.

During the STart UP programme, we employed officers whose job it was to work in areas that had been identified as receiving low levels of funding. They worked with the community relations officers and local authority arts officers to identify groups that they could contact.[66]

98. The Committee welcomes the Start Up programme and believes it can help address the problem of small community groups being unaware or unable to access arts funding.

99. On the basis of the evidence presented, the Committee makes the following recommendations:

We recommend that the Arts Council increases the current budget for the Start Up programme which will distribute grants to community based groups which have received little or no previous funding from the Arts Council.

We recommend that in distributing these funds, the Arts Council pro-actively identifies groups which may be eligible for this funding.

Chapter 5
Arts funders – comparisons
with other regions

100. As part of the inquiry, the Committee was interested to learn whether data existed which would allow comparison between government funders of the arts across these islands. In particular, the Committee sought information on how the various funding bodies – in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Scotland and Wales distributed their budgets between different art forms.

101. In its written submission, the Arts Council stated that this sort of information was not readily available:

Arts Councils in each of the UK regions and the Republic of Ireland support artists and arts organisations through Exchequer and Lottery funds. A breakdown across the various art forms for each of the Councils represents a significant piece of research in its own right owing to issues of consistency and comparability between budgets and systems of classification.[67]

102. The Minister made the point in his evidence that while such information would be useful, each region has different needs in terms of how it spends its arts budget:

It is important to understand and, where appropriate, learn from the funding- allocation process used by other organisations that provide public funding to the arts. However, every region is different and Northern Ireland, like other regions, has its own unique cultural demographic and social characteristics that are reflected in the allocation of funds to various art forms.[68]

103. This was backed up by the information provided by Assembly Research Services who pointed to the fact that different regions have their own leanings towards certain art forms, perhaps as a result of their cultural history:

There are differences in preferences among the EU countries in the allocation of public spending on culture. For example, spending on cultural heritage and museums is highly prioritised in Greece, Italy, Malta, Cyprus, Germany, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom. Performing arts, including music, theatre and dance, are primarily subsidised in Austria, Germany, Bulgaria, Estonia, Finland, Denmark, Hungary, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland and Sweden.[69]

104. The Committee therefore came to the conclusion that while this kind of comparative data across the regions would be of interest, it may not necessarily be required to assist public funders of the arts in Northern Ireland in allocating their budgets.

Chapter 6
Art forms not receiving
adequate funding

Funding for voluntary arts

105. There are a range of art forms currently funded by the Arts Council and other public bodies and the Committee recognises the value of each of them. The Committee is also cognisant that budgets are currently stretched and that many arts organisations believe that more funding for the entire sector is required.

106. However, during the inquiry the Committee came to the view that voluntary arts is a sector that is underfunded and under-recognised in terms of the opportunities it gives people for participation. Voluntary Arts Ireland made the following point during their evidence:

The voluntary arts also make a key contribution to volunteering, the economy, lifelong learning, mental and physical health, regeneration, community cohesion, etc. Nobody joins an amateur arts group to make a contribution to regeneration or social cohesion. People join because they want to sing, act or dance. However, those community groups create a by-product that affects a lot of those other agendas, many of which pertain to other Departments.

For years, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) in England has had public service agreement targets to raise levels of arts participation, and for years it has singularly failed to meet those targets, largely because it works primarily through Arts Council England, which then charges its regularly funded organisations — about 800 arts institutions — with increasing participation. That is not where participation happens: it happens in small community groups that are not funded through any Government or Arts Council programme.[70]

107. The Committee noted that despite DCAL having Public Service Agreements with targets of increasing the number of people participating in arts activities, the Arts Council does not weight the number of people participating in a project when it is scoring applications:

There is no weighting given for the number of participants/audience as this varies greatly from organisation to organisation and from artform to artform. One of the principal criteria of all Council funding programmes is the artistic quality of the programme. We recognise that innovative/challenging work does not attract huge audiences but should be supported because of its developmental nature. The other principal criterion is that of public benefit which is assessed against the level of interaction with the public.[71]

108. Based on the evidence, the Committee therefore makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that given its levels of participation, we recommend that the Arts Council increases the level of funding which goes to voluntary arts organisations, such as those involved in amateur drama or the traditional arts.

Feedback for unsuccessful funding applicants

109. In terms of how the Arts Council makes decisions on allocating funding, some witnesses expressed a number of concerns about this process. CAF were of the view that some kind of appeals process was required:

In consultation with the arts sector, we would like DCAL and ACNI to develop and implement a transparent policy and procedures for reviewing ACNI decisions. At present, if groups do not receive ACNI funding, there is no appeals process, and that can be frustrating for groups.[72]

110. One such group, New Lodge Arts, spoke of its frustration at not been given a clear reason as to why its application for funding had failed:

A recent attempt by New Lodge Arts to secure Arts Council Annual Support for Organisations (ASOP) funding was unsuccessful, despite scoring highly in the application process. We were told that the application was unsuccessful because of standstill funding within the Arts Council and that funding had to be targeted at organisations that were seen to be more strategically important in the sector . . . I found it frustrating that, although we had scored highly, we did not get that funding . . Perhaps there could be more transparency around which organisations are funded and whether they are funded according to how well they meet the criteria or whether they are deemed to be more strategically important in the sector.[73]

111. Based on the evidence, the Committee therefore makes the following recommendation:

We recommend that in the interests of transparency and fairness, the Arts Council should establish a feedback process for unsuccessful funding applicants to clarify why they did not receive funding.

[1] Arts Council of Northern Ireland written submission, Appendix 4

[2] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[3] Additional Information, Appendix 9

[4] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[5] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[6] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[7] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[8] Research paper, Appendix 7

[9] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[10] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[11] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[12] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[13] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[14] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[15] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[16] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[17] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[18] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[19] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[20] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[21] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[22] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[23] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[24] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[25] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[26] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[27] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[28] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[29] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[30] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[31] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[32] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[33] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[34] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[35] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[36] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[37] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[38] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[39] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[40] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[41] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[42] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[43] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[44] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[45] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[46] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[47] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[48] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[49] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[50] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[51] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[52] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[53] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[54] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[55] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[56] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[57] Additional information, Appendix 9

[58] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[59] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[60] Additional information, Appendix 9

[61] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[62] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[63] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[64] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[65] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[66] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[67] Written submission, Appendix 4

[68] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[69] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[70] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[71] Additional information, Appendix 9

[72] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

[73] Oral evidence, Appendix 2

Appendix 1

Minutes of Proceedings

Thursday 29 January 2009
Ulster American Folk Park, Omagh

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Ken Robinson MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.48 a.m.

6. Consideration of Draft Terms of Reference for Arts Inquiry

Agreed: The Committee agreed the terms of reference for the inquiry.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the press notice seeking written submissions for the inquiry.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the closing date for written submissions would be 27 February 2009.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the first oral evidence session would be with the Arts Council of Northern Ireland.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the second oral evidence session would comprise a presentation from Assembly Research and Library Services on the VALCAL study and related issues, along with a presentation from the authors of the VALCAL study and the Department.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.40 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 5 February 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Lord Browne MLA
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.35 a.m. The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair.

7. Inquiry into the funding of the arts

The Committee noted the outline plan for its inquiry into the funding of the arts.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.00 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 12 February 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Francie Brolly MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)
Ms Meadhbh McCann (Research & Library Services)
Ms Ruth Barry (Research & Library Services)

The meeting opened in closed session at 10.36 a.m.

The meeting moved into open session at 12.45 p.m.

8. Inquiry into the funding of the arts

The Committee noted the response to the inquiry from the Committee for Finance and Personnel.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.05 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 19 February 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Dominic Bradley MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.07 a.m.

10.10 a.m. Mr McCartney joined the meeting.

10.15 a.m. Mr Shannon joined the meeting.

8. Inquiry into the Funding of the Arts in Northern Ireland

The Chairperson advised the Committee that the Arts Council will give oral evidence to the inquiry at the meeting on 26 February 2009.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.53 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 26 February 2009
Room 144, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.05 a.m.

3. Inquiry into the Arts

The following representatives from the Arts Council joined the meeting:

Ms Roisin McDonough (Chief Executive)
Ms Noírín McKinney (Director of Arts Development)
Ms Lorraine McDowell (Director of Operations)
Mr Nick Livingston (Director of Strategic Development)

11.45 a.m. Mr Bradley left the meeting.

The Committee took oral evidence from the representatives from the Arts Council. This was followed by a question and answer session. The Arts Council agreed to forward further information to the Committee on its budget.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.05 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 5 March 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)
Ms Meadhbh McCann (Research Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.35 a.m.

5. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee received a briefing from Ms Meadhbh McCann, Research and Library Services on ‘Economic and Social Impacts arising from Sports, Arts, Museums and Libraries’ and ‘Economic Modelling of Value Impacts of DCAL Investment’. This was followed by a question and answer session. Ms McCann agreed to provide further information on the economic value of sport.

The following representative from PricewaterhouseCoopers and officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure joined the meeting:

Mr Philip McDonagh (PricewaterhouseCoopers)
Dr Michael Willis (DCAL Head of Statistics Branch)
Ms Anne Tohill (DCAL Arts Branch)
Ms Michelle Scott (DCAL official)

11.07 a.m. Lord Browne joined the meeting.

11.12 a.m. Mr Bradley joined the meeting.

The representatives and officials briefed the Committee on the ValCAL study. This was followed by a question and answer session. The departmental officials agreed to forward further information to the Committee.

The Deputy Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.07 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 12 March 2009
Flowerfield Arts Centre, Portstewart

Present: Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)
Miss Meadhbh McCann (Research Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.31 a.m.

5. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee discussed the selection of witnesses to give oral evidence to the inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to receive oral evidence from the Ulster Orchestra, Belfast Community Circus School, Young at Art, Arts and Business NI, Voluntary Arts Ireland, the Lyric Theatre, the Arts Council and the Department.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that a selection of community based arts organizations should also be invited to give oral evidence. The Clerk agreed to produce a list of potential organizations for the Committee to consider at the next meeting.

The Committee received a presentation from Miss Meadhbh McCann, Research and Library Services, on ‘Per Capita spend on the Arts in the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland’. This was followed by a question and answer session.

Agreed: Miss McCann agreed to come back to the Committee on a number of issues.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council to ask how it produces figures for the per capita spend on the arts.

The Committee noted an email forwarded by Belfast City Council’s Arts Officer on a conference entitled “Participate – Harnessing cultural value in tough economic times". Mr Brolly indicated that he may be able to attend the event.

The Committee noted the response to the inquiry from the Minister for the Environment.

The Committee noted the response to the inquiry from the Minister for Regional Development.

The Committee noted the response to the inquiry from the Minister for Finance and Personnel.

The Committee noted the response to the inquiry from the Minister for Health.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Minister for Health to request that the Committee receives a copy of the review into spending on artwork in the design and construction of healthcare facilities when it is completed.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Minister for Health to request a breakdown of the spend on the arts in hospital and healthcare settings for the last three years.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council to ask what its role is in the selection of artwork for hospitals and healthcare settings.

The Committee noted an article by Roisin McDonagh in Agenda NI relating to the inquiry.

Mr McCartney adjourned the meeting at 11.41 a.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 19 March 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.21 a.m.

4. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted the additional information from the Arts Council on pressures to its existing budget.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the outline plan for the inquiry into the funding of the arts.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to invite ArtsEkta, Cairncastle LOL 692 Community and Cultural Group, Greater Shantallow Community Arts, and New Lodge Arts to give oral evidence to the Committee on the inquiry.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to invite Belfast City Council to give oral evidence to the Committee on the inquiry.

10.33 a.m. Mr McCausland joined the meeting.

10.34 a.m. Mr Robinson joined the meeting.

Mr McElduff declared an interest as a member of Omagh Borough Council.

Mr McCausland declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr Ramsey declared an interest as a member of Derry City Council and Director of the Millennium Forum.

Mr Robinson declared an interest as a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

Mr Shannon declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

The following representatives from the Ulster Orchestra joined the meeting:

Mr David Byers (Chief Executive)
Mr Colm Crummey (Finance and Administration Manager)
Mr Colin Stark (Orchestra Player)

10.45 a.m. Lord Browne joined the meeting.

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

The representatives briefed the Committee on the Ulster Orchestra. This was followed by a question and answer session.

11.35 a.m. Mr McNarry left the meeting.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 11.47 a.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 26 March 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Dominic Bradley MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Heather Galbraith (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.35 a.m.

4. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Chairperson advised that the Arts Council has requested a list of all those organizations and individuals who had submitted written evidence to the inquiry.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to publish the list of organizations and individuals who submitted written evidence to the inquiry, on the Committee website.

10.37 a.m. Mr Robinson joined the meeting.

The Committee noted the additional information from the Department following the evidence session on 12 March 2009.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to ask the Department what actions were taken as a result of the research report “A Review of Community Arts in Northern Ireland".

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council to ask for an update on the feasibility study for a new art gallery, and to ask for its views on a recent media report concerning a new art gallery in Belfast.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council to request a copy of its organizational structure and details of its various funding streams.

The Committee noted the revised outline plan for the inquiry.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to consider at its next meeting additional community based organizations which could be invited to present oral evidence to the inquiry.

The Committee noted the summary of key issues raised in written submissions to the inquiry.

The Chairperson advised that the Clerk represented the Committee at the Belfast City Council conference on 25 March 2009 entitled “Participate – Harnessing Cultural Value in Tough Economic Times". The Clerk provided a report to the Committee on the conference.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to ask Belfast City Council if it intends to make the speeches and presentations from the conference available on its website.

The Committee noted the summary of evidence to the inquiry given by the Ulster Orchestra.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Ulster Orchestra to request further information on its outreach/community based work and for an assessment of the number of performances it puts on per year as compared to other orchestras.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the First Minister and deputy First Minister to ask them to consider hosting two events per year on behalf of the Ulster Orchestra.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council to ask for details of whether it has a service level agreement with the Ulster Orchestra, and how it evaluates the output of the Ulster Orchestra.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Department to seek its views on the outputs of the Ulster Orchestra.

11.35 a.m. Mr McNarry left the meeting.

Mr McElduff declared an interest as a member of Omagh District Council.

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr McCausland declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council and Belfast Education and Library Board.

Mr Ramsey declared an interest as a member of Derry City Council and Director of Millennium Forum.

Mr Robinson declared an interest as a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

Mr Shannon declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

The following representative from Belfast Community Circus School joined the meeting:

Mr Will Chamberlain (Director)

Mr Chamberlain briefed the Committee. This was followed by a question and answer session.

11.55 a.m. Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting.

12.20 p.m. Mr Ramsey left the meeting.

12.20 p.m. Mr Robinson left the meeting.

The following representatives from Young at Art joined the meeting:

Mr Joe Kelly (Chairman)
Ms Ali Fitzgibbon (Director)

Mr Kelly and Ms Fitzgibbon briefed the Committee. This was followed by a question and answer session.

12.45 p.m. Mr Shannon left the meeting.

12.50 p.m. Mr Brolly left the meeting.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.04 p.m..

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 2 April 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Ken Robinson MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Heather Galbraith (Clerical Officer)
Miss Meadhbh McCann (Research & Library Services)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.35 a.m.

4. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted the Research and Library Services paper on Business in the Arts.

The Committee noted the paper on suggestions for potential visits.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to visit Liverpool as part of the inquiry into the funding of the arts.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to request oral evidence from the Arts Council of Ireland, Mid Armagh Community Network, Ulster-Scots Community Network and Féile an Phobail.

The Committee noted the response from the Arts Council on the selection of art works for hospitals and health care facilities.

Mr McElduff declared an interest as a member of Omagh District Council.

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr McCausland declared an interest as member of Belfast City Council, Belfast Education and Library Board, and the Ulster-Scots Community Network.

Mr Ramsey declared an interest as a member of Derry City Council and Director of the Millennium Forum.

Mr Shannon declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

The following representatives from Arts and Business Northern Ireland joined the meeting:

Ms Mary Trainor (Director)
Ms Lesley Wake (Director of Operations)
Ms Joanne South (Research Manager)

The representatives briefed the Committee. This was followed by a question and answer session.

11.32 a.m. Mr Bradley joined the meeting.

12.05 p.m. Mr Ramsey left the meeting.

The representatives from Arts and Business Northern Ireland agreed to forward further details of its membership.

The following representatives from the Forum for Local Government and the Arts joined the meeting:

Ms Noelle McAlinden (Chairperson)
Mr Mac Pollock (Vice Chairperson)
Mr Malcolm Murchinson (Arts Manager, Flowerfield Arts Centre, Portstewart)

12.26 p.m. Mr McCausland left the meeting.

The representatives briefed the Committee. This was followed by a question and answer session.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.58 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 23 April 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Heather Galbraith (Clerical Officer)
Ms Meadhbh McCann (Research Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.35 a.m.

4. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee received a presentation by Ms Meadhbh McCann, Research and Library Services, on European Funding of the Arts and Culture. This was followed by a question and answer session.

The Committee noted the additional information on per capita spend provided by Research and Library Services following the Committee’s meeting on 12 March 2009.

The following representatives from Voluntary Arts Ireland joined the meeting:

Mr Robin Simpson (Chief Executive Voluntary Arts Network)
Ms Brenda Kent (Chief Officer Voluntary Arts Ireland)
Mr Stephen Brown (Chairperson Voluntary Arts Ireland)

11.03 a.m. Mr McCartney left the meeting.

11.36 a.m. Mr Shannon left the meeting.

The Committee took evidence from the Voluntary Arts Ireland representatives. This was followed by a question and answer session.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to commission a paper from Research and Library Services on the costs associated with the monitoring and auditing processes involved in grant awards to arts organisations.

The following representatives from the Lyric Theatre joined the meeting:

Mr Ciaran McAuley (Executive Director)
Mr Richard Croxford (Artistic Director)
Mr Dan Gordon (Board Member)

The Committee took evidence from the Lyric Theatre representatives. This was followed by a question and answer session.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.47 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 30 April 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Heather Galbraith (Clerical Officer)
Ms Meadhbh McCann (Research Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.08 a.m.

4. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted the information supplied by the Arts Council detailing groups which received over £10,000 in funding for 2008/2009.

The Committee noted the information supplied by the Arts Council detailing groups which received over £100,000 in funding for 2008/2009.

The Committee noted the response from the Arts Council on the methodology used to calculate per capita spend on the arts.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the Arts Council’s letter to the Department for comment.

The Committee noted the response from the Arts Council on its organisational structure and overheads.

The Committee noted the response from the Arts Council on its distribution of funding for super output areas.

The Committee noted the response from the Arts Council on how it evaluates the work of the Ulster Orchestra.

The Committee noted the response from the Ulster Orchestra detailing its outreach and community work.

The Committee noted the response from the Minister on how the Department evaluates the work of the Ulster Orchestra.

The Committee noted the additional information supplied by the Forum for Local Government and the Arts on “Local Authority Arts Expenditure Survey".

The Committee noted the additional information supplied by Arts & Business NI on their membership.

The Committee noted the information forwarded by Voluntary Arts Ireland on the hardship fund being set up by the Arts Council of England.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council to ask if it has any access to unused lottery funding and whether it has received any indication that its’ funding will be reduced as a result of the Budget.

The Clerk updated the Committee on the proposed itinerary for the committee visit to Liverpool.

The Committee received a presentation by Ms Meadhbh McCann, Research and Library Services, on “The impact of the arts on social needs". This was followed by a question and answer session.

Agreed: Ms McCann agreed to come back to the Committee on a number of issues.

Mr McElduff declared an interest as a member of Omagh District Council.

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr McCausland declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council, Belfast Education and Library Board, and the Ulster-Scots Community Network.

Mr Ramsey declared an interest as a member of Derry City Council and Director of the Millennium Forum.

Mr Robinson declared an interest as a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

Mr Shannon declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

The following representatives from New Lodge Arts joined the meeting:

Ms Katrina Newell (Youth Arts Coordinator)
Ms Danielle Fields (Youth Advisory Group)
Mr John Paul McBride (Youth Advisory Group)

The Committee took evidence from the New Lodge Arts representatives. This was followed by a question and answer session.

The following representatives from Greater Shantallow Community Arts joined the meeting:

Mr Oliver Green (Director of Arts)
Mr Joe Campbell (Youth Intervention Coordinator in Arts Development)

The Committee took evidence from the Greater Shantallow Community Arts representatives. This was followed by a question and answer session.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.10 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 7 May 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA

Apologies: Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Heather Galbraith (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.37 a.m.

5. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted the draft itinerary for the visit to Liverpool on 9-11 June 2009.

The Chairperson advised the Committee that a request has been received from the Community Arts Forum to present oral evidence to the inquiry.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to hear oral evidence from the Community Arts Forum.

Mr McElduff declared an interest as a member of Omagh District Council.

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr Ramsey declared an interest as a member of Derry City Council and Director of the Millennium Forum.

11.12 a.m. Mr McCausland joined the meeting.

The following representatives from Féile an Phobail joined the meeting:

Mr Sean Paul O’Hare (Director)
Ms Jenny Gillespie (Events Coordinator)
Ms Elsie McLaughlin (Marketing Officer)

The Committee took evidence from the Féile an Phobail representatives. This was followed by a question and answer session. The representatives agreed to forward a number of documents to the Committee.

11.45 a.m. Mr Ramsey left the meeting.

The following representatives from ArtsEkta joined the meeting:

Heather Floyd (Board Member)
Mukesh Sharma (Treasurer)
Nisha Tandon (Development Manager)

The Committee took evidence from the ArtsEkta representatives. This was followed by a question and answer session.

12.10 p.m. Mr McElduff vacated the Chair.

12.10 p.m. Mr McNarry assumed the Chair.

12.17 p.m. Mr McElduff resumed the Chair.

The following representatives from the Arts Council of Ireland joined the meeting:

Ms Mary Cloake (Director)
Mr Martin Drury (Arts Director)

The Committee took evidence from the Arts Council of Ireland representatives. This was followed by a question and answer session.

12.35 p.m. Mr McCausland left the meeting.

1.00 p.m. Mr McCartney left the meeting.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.12 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 14 May 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Heather Galbraith (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.35 a.m.

6. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted the response from the Department on behalf of the Arts Council on audit and monitoring procedures on grants awarded.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council to ask for its views on the possibility of costing its audit and monitoring procedures.

The Committee noted the response from the Arts Council of Northern Ireland advising that they are unable to access the funding stream that allows the Arts Council of England to operate a £40 million hardship fund.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council of Northern Ireland to ask if they have considered a hardship fund.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the National Lottery Distribution Body to inquire if the Arts Council of Northern Ireland could access unused lottery funds.

The Committee noted the response from the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister relating to the Ulster Orchestra.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the letter to the Ulster Orchestra for information.

The Committee noted the response from the Minister advising what actions have been taken by the Department as a result of the review of Community Arts in Northern Ireland.

Mr McElduff declared an interest as a member of Omagh District Council.

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr Ramsey declared an interest as a member of Derry City Council and Director of the Millennium Forum.

Mr Robinson declared an interest as a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

11.01 a.m. Mr McNarry left the meeting.

11.08 a.m. Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting.

The following representatives from Community Arts Forum joined the meeting:

Ms Heather Floyd (Director)
Ms Caragh O’Donnell (Information Officer)
Mr Connor Shields (Treasurer)

11.41 a.m. Mr Shannon rejoined the meeting.

The Committee took evidence from the Community Arts Forum representatives. This was followed by a question and answer session. The representatives agreed to forward further information to the Committee.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.06 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 21 May 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Heather Galbraith (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.31 a.m.

5. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

11.07 a.m. Mr Shannon joined the meeting.

11.10 a.m. Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting.

The Committee noted the additional information provided by Research and Library Services on “Social Impacts of the Arts".

The Committee noted the response from the Arts Council on the proposed feasibility study for a new art gallery.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Arts Council to request clarification on what was meant by “expenses" in relation to the proposed consultants’ costs.

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr McCausland declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council, Belfast Education and Library Board, and the Ulster-Scots Community Network.

Mr Ramsey declared an interest as a member of Derry City Council and Director of the Millennium Forum.

Mr Robinson declared an interest as a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

Mr Shannon declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

The following representatives from Cairncastle LOL 692 Community and Cultural Group joined the meeting:

Mr Bobby Acheson (Chairman)
Mr Adrian Rolston (PR representative)

The Committee took evidence from the Cairncastle LOL 692 Community and Cultural Group. This was followed by a question and answer session.

Agreed: The Cairncastle LOL 692 Community and Cultural Group agreed to forward their business plan to the Committee.

Mr McNarry proposed that Mr Ramsey do take the chair of the Committee. Mr Shannon seconded the proposal. No other nominations were received by the Clerk, and Mr Ramsey was duly elected as chairperson.

11.50 a.m. Mr McNarry vacated the chair.

11.50 a.m. Mr Ramsey assumed the chair.

The following representatives from Mid Armagh Community Network joined the meeting:

Mr Conrad Clarke (Director)
Ms Hilary Singleton (Committee Members and Dance Coordinator)

The Committee took evidence from Mid Armagh Community Network. This was followed by a question and answer session.

12.06 p.m. Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting and assumed the chair.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward details of Arts & Business to the Mid Armagh Community Network.

12.25 p.m. Mr Brolly left the meeting.

12.37 p.m. Mr Robinson left the meeting.

The following representatives from the Ulster-Scots Community Network joined the meeting:

Mr William Humphrey (Director)
Mr Iain Carlisle (Operations Manager)

The Committee took evidence from the Ulster-Scots Community Network. This was followed by a question and answer session.

12.47 p.m. Mr McCarthy left the meeting.

12.50 p.m. Mr Bradley left the meeting.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to consider a visit to the Ulster-Scots Community Network premises at a future date.

The Deputy Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.12 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 25 June 2009
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Chris Baird (Clerical Officer)

10.33 a.m. The meeting opened in closed session.

11.03 a.m. The meeting moved into open session.

5. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr McCausland declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council, Belfast Education and Library Board, and the Ulster-Scots Community Network.

Mr Ramsey declared an interest as a member of Derry City Council and Director of the Millennium Forum.

Mr Robinson declared an interest as a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

Mr Shannon declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

The following representatives from Belfast City Council joined the meeting:

Deirdre Robb (Acting Manager of Culture and Arts Unit).
Heather Bulfin (Cultural Communications Officer).

11.10 a.m. Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting and assumed the chair.

The Committee took evidence from Belfast City Council. This was followed by a question and answer session. The representatives agreed to forward further information to the Committee.

11.27a.m. Mr Brolly left the meeting.

11.37a.m. Mr Bradley joined the meeting.

11.39a.m. Mr Ramsey left the meeting.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.30 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 2 July 2009
Room 152 Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Raymond McCartney MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Chris Baird (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.32 a.m.

3. Inquiry into the Funding of the Arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted a written submission from the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

The Committee noted the correspondence from the Arts Council on auditing/monitoring procedures.

Mr McElduff declared an interest as a member of Omagh District Council

Lord Browne declared an interest as a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr Robinson declared an interest as a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

10.40 a.m. Mr Shannon joined the meeting.

Evidence Session with the Arts Council

The following representatives from the Arts Council joined the meeting:

Roisin McDonough (Chief Executive).
Lorraine McDowell (Director of Operations).
Damian Smyth (Head of Drama & Literature).
Joan Dempster (Arts Development Officer/Community Arts)

This was followed by a question and answer session. The representatives agreed to forward further information to the Committee.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward additional questions to the Arts Council in writing.

Evidence Session with the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure

The Minister and the following officials joined the meeting:

Linda Wilson (Director of Culture).
Anne Tohill (Head of Arts & Creativity).

This was followed by a question and answer session.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward additional questions to the Department in writing.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.14 pm

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 10 September 2009
Room 152 Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA

Apologies: Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Chris Baird (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.36 a.m.

3. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted responses from the Minister and from the Arts Council to additional questions relating to the inquiry.

The Committee noted information supplied by the Community Arts Forum relating to spending on community arts in other countries and regions.

The Committee noted correspondence from the Arts Council regarding its allocation under the CSR.

The Committee noted the Clerk’s report of the visit to Liverpool.

The Committee noted the timetable for completion of the inquiry.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.04 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 17 September 2009
Room 152 Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Trevor Clarke MLA
Ms Michelle McIlveen MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr PJ Bradley MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Chris Baird (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.30 a.m.

12.31 p.m. The Deputy Chairperson declared the meeting closed to the public.

9. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee considered the draft recommendations for Terms of Reference 1 -3, an issues paper and a summary of oral evidence.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the draft recommendations for Terms of Reference 1 – 3.

The Deputy Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.38 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 01 October 2009
Room 152 Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Trevor Clarke MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Ms Michelle McIlveen MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Chris Baird (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.32 a.m.

12.29 p.m. The Chairperson declared the meeting closed to the public.

6. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted a letter from the Arts Council.

The Committee considered the draft recommendations for Terms of Reference 4 -7.

12.37 p.m. Mr. McNarry re-joined the meeting.

12.40 p.m. Mr. McCarthy left the meeting.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to re-consider the draft recommendations at next week’s meeting.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.59 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 08 October 2009
Sean Hollywood Arts Centre, Newry

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Trevor Clarke MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Ms Michelle McIlveen MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA

Apologies: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Chris Baird (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.37 a.m.

11.44 a.m. The Chairperson declared the meeting closed to the public.

10. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted revised draft recommendations for Terms of Reference 4 - 7, an issues paper and a summary of oral evidence.

Agreed: The Committee agreed a number of amendments to the draft recommendations for Terms of Reference 4 – 7, to be presented at next week’s meeting.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.06 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 15 October 2009
Room 21 Parliament Buildings, Stormont

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Trevor Clarke MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Ms Michelle McIlveen MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA

Apologies: Mr Dominic Bradley MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Chris Baird (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.36 a.m.

11.50 a.m. The Chairperson declared the meeting closed to the public.

11.51 a.m. Mr McCarthy re-joined the meeting.

7. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

Agreed: The Committee agreed the revised draft recommendations that relate to Terms of Reference 4 and 6.

The Chairperson advised that the draft report will be presented at next week’s meeting.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 11.57 a.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 22 October 2009
Room 21 Parliament Buildings, Stormont

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Ms Michelle McIlveen MLA

Apologies: Mr Trevor Clarke MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Vivien Ireland (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Christopher Nickle (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 1.05 p.m.

The committee moved into closed session at 3.13 p.m.

9. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee considered its draft report and made a number of amendments to Chapter 1.

The Chairperson advised that the revised draft report will be presented at the meeting of 5 November 2009.

3.17 p.m. Mr PJ Bradley left the meeting.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to host a musical event in the Long Gallery to mark the launch of the report.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 3.31 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 05 November 2009
Room 21 Parliament Buildings, Stormont

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Ms Michelle McIlveen MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA

Apologies: Lord Browne MLA
Mr Trevor Clarke MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Christopher Baird (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.37 a.m.

The Committee moved into closed session at 12.33 p.m.

10. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

The Committee noted the revised chapter 1 of the report which incorporates the amendments agreed on 22 October 2009.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the revised chapter.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to table a motion to debate the report in plenary.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.44 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 12 November 2009
Room 21 Parliament Buildings, Stormont

Unapproved Minutes of Proceedings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Trevor Clarke MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA

Apologies: Ms Michelle McIlveen MLA

In attendance: Dr Kathryn Bell (Clerk)
Mrs Ashleigh Mitford (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Lamont (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Christopher Baird (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened in public session at 10.35 a.m.

Mr Brolly left the meeting at 12.13 p.m.

Mr PJ Bradley left the meeting at 12.38 p.m.

The Committee moved into closed session at 12.42 p.m.

11. Inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland

Agreed: The Committee agreed the following sections of the report:

Executive Summary - read and agreed.

List of Recommendations - read and agreed.

Introduction – read and agreed.

Chapter 1– read and agreed, subject to a minor amendment.

Chapter 2– read and agreed, subject to an additional paragraph to be approved by the Chairperson.

Chapter 3– read and agreed.

Chapter 4– read and agreed.

Chapter 5 – read and agreed.

Chapter 6– read and agreed.

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the following papers should be appended to the Committee’s report:

1. Minute of Proceedings

2. Minutes of Evidence

3. List of Written Submissions to the Committee

4. Written Submissions to the Committee

5. List of Witnesses Who Gave Evidence to the Committee

6. List of Research Papers

7. Research Papers

8. List of additional information

9. Additional Information

10. List of Abbreviations

Agreed: The Committee ordered the report to be printed.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to send embargoed copies of the Report to the Minister and to the Arts Council 3 working days in advance of the plenary debate.

The Chairperson advised members that there will be a draft press release for the Committee to consider next week which would be issued the day of the plenary debate.

The Committee moved into open session at 12.55 p.m.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.03 p.m.

[EXTRACT]

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

26 February 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr Nick Livingston Ms Roisín McDonough Ms Lorraine McDowell Ms Nóirín McKinney

Arts Council of Northern Ireland

1. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): Good morning. I welcome Ms Roisín McDonough, Ms Nóirín McKinney, Ms Lorraine McDowell and Mr Nick Livingston from the Arts Council. The Committee is grateful for your early submission, Roisín. Thank you for accommodating us in the way that you have done.

2. Ms Roisín McDonough (Arts Council of Northern Ireland): My senior team is with me this morning. Mr Nick Livingston is the council’s director of strategic development; Ms Lorraine McDowell is our director of operations; and Ms Nóirín McKinney is the council’s director of arts development. We will all make a contribution in the course of our presentation.

3. I thank you for the opportunity to address the Committee. We spent considerable time pulling together as much evidence as we could in answer to the Committee’s questions. That is still a work in progress, and we are happy to return in future if there are any further issues or questions that we can help members with. Nóirín McKinney will address points 1 and 2 of the terms of reference for the Committees inquiry.

4. Ms Nóirín McKinney (Arts Council of Northern Ireland): The Committee will be aware that Northern Ireland is still renowned for having the lowest per capita spend on the arts in the UK and Ireland. That, of course, has had a direct impact on artists and arts organisations here. For example, we have just made decisions on the 129 applications that we received under the Annual Support for Organisations Programme (ASOP). The total value of those applications was £13·5 million, but the funding budget that was available was £10·1 million. The paper that we submitted to the Committee sets out in more detail the gap between the need for funding and the money that has been available from the Arts Council over the past number of years. That is still a critical problem.

5. It is difficult to directly compare spending on the arts in many European countries and regions with that of the UK. That is because of different systems of support for creative and cultural life and the way in which they are defined in different countries and, even, in different regions of the UK. The ranges of legal structures and cultural policies that exist also have an effect. We have set out the arts spending per capita in the UK and the Republic of Ireland, because those figures can be more easily and readily compared.

6. There are other innovative sources of funding. To put the issue in context, we felt that it was important to set out the current sources of funding. We have included a list that members will be familiar with. The Arts Council is the primary funding source for Government expenditure on the arts, followed by the other Departments, and, obviously, local authorities. Box office income through ticket sales and merchandising is another main source of funding, particularly for performing arts organisations. Many such organisations run membership schemes, patronage schemes and fund-raising events. However, those sources of funding, by their very nature, are transient or short-term, and cannot replace core funding.

7. Given the cocktail of funding that makes up the arts sector in Northern Ireland, it is difficult for organisations to offer full-time or part- time positions, and the sector relies very heavily on voluntary support, which is another source of invisible subsidy. Arts organisations have reported that almost 2,400 individuals work in a voluntary capacity in both formal and informal roles. That is critical to and has a huge impact on the sector.

8. There are risks to current funding. The Department of Education and the Department for Social Development (DSD) are reviewing policies. That will probably have a negative impact on arts funding. Members will be aware that the Department of Education funds the Creative Youth Partnerships (CPY), and we recently received confirmation that that funding will continue for another year.

9. Mr McCarthy: That is good news. That group visited the Committee recently and was concerned about the funding.

10. The Chairperson: Will the Department of Education and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) fund the Creative Youth Partnerships?

11. Ms McKinney: The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s money is ring-fenced, but we were awaiting a steer from the Department of Education on its future position. That Department will provide £50,000. However, there is less good news, because it is reviewing its community relations policy through which the Arts Council receives — and has done for a number of years — over £200,000. We have used that money to fund much of the traditional arts sector, because it is under their Cultural Traditions programme. We are still awaiting the news that that funding is likely to be reduced substantially. That has had a negative impact on our overall funds for 2009-2010.

12. DSD’s review of the neighbourhood action plan might cause organisations such as the Greater Shantallow Community Arts to lose vital finances. Again, given that it is such a fragile ecosystem, all those small amounts of money can have a negative impact, and many of those organisations have asked us to replace that funding. We are simply unable to do so. Local government has experienced unprecedented financial pressure, and we are aware that Belfast City Council, for example, has to review whether it is able to organise large-scale cultural events in the city. It will be disappointing if the council has to cancel popular events such as Opera in the Park. The recession might impact on box office receipts and the levels of discretionary spend by the public. We are waiting to see what impact the recession will have on the arts.

13. Furthermore, under the review of public administration (RPA), we will work closely with local authorities to maximise the transferred amount of funding for the arts and to ensure that, when the money transfers, it is ring-fenced for the arts and does not become lost in general provision. We have much work to do in order to address those pressures.

14. Sponsorship is important. Our submission outlines the Arts and Business definition of sponsorship. Importantly, Arts and Business conducts an annual survey on private investment in the cultural sector (PICS), which revealed that the arts accounts for 18% of the UK’s total sponsorship market. In 2007-08, Northern Ireland received 1·2% — £8·5 million, which includes in-kind support, from the UK private investment total of £687 million. Therefore, those are small amounts of money.

15. The £8·5 million comprises investment of £3·9 million from business, £2·2 million from individuals and £2·3 million from trusts and foundations. Funding is, unfortunately, on the decline, and business investment has decreased by 8·9% since 2006-07. Business investment accounts for 47% of the total private investment in Northern Ireland. The business sector is, therefore, extremely important.

16. It must be remembered that the small-scale level of private enterprise in Northern Ireland has limited the number of companies and businesses that can be approached for sponsorship deals. Large-scale corporations, or their headquarters, simply do not exist in Northern Ireland, and that too has a negative impact. The Arts and Business PICS survey does not cover only the arts; it covers the entire cultural sector, including museums and heritage. Therefore, that figure is diluted even more.

17. We gave the Committee our survey of the arts organisations that we fund directly. We gathered the figures on how much sponsorship they are able to raise, which further refines the information for the Committee. Our submission illustrates that, in 2006-07, sponsorship of our revenue clients was only £1 million, which is approximately 4% of their total income, and the top 10 of our funded clients received £436,000 of that amount, which is about 40% of the total.

18. Since the publication of that data, the Belfast Festival at Queen’s secured a major sponsorship deal with the Ulster Bank for a three-year period, and the Committee will be aware that the Lyric Theatre secured an individual donation of £1 million for its new theatre. Those are fantastic examples but, in a Northern Ireland context, they are exceptional.

19. Philanthropy in Ireland has been increasing, as the press coverage shows, and the figures suggest that there may be as many as 100,000 millionaires. Although the overwhelming trend is that individuals with high net worth are willing to fund the arts, they will not do so to the same extent as they fund other sectors. The arts sector is low on their list of priorities.

20. Trust foundations and charitable giving play their part: the Paul Hamlyn Foundation; the Joseph Rowntree Foundation; and schemes such as Comic Relief and Children in Need are vital to the arts. However, the funding opportunities that those organisations choose are often project-based and time bound, and they simply cannot guarantee the long-term sustainability of arts organisations.

21. Published in December 2008, the report from PricewaterhouseCoopers, ‘Managing in a Downturn’ contains breaking news on the effect of the recession and highlights the widespread concern that most sources of income will remain at best static and that income from trusts, corporate foundations, and legacies in particular, will decrease. As might be expected, there is no good news in that report.

22. EU structural funding has been important to the arts in Northern Ireland, but the revised rules place priority on supporting countries that have, or will, become EU members from 2004 onwards. Therefore, the UK is no longer a priority for EU funding.

23. Gift aid is the key element of tax-efficient charitable giving in the UK, but there is little information on what percentage of that goes directly to benefit the arts. We do not, unfortunately, have that information.

24. We have studied some models of innovative approaches to funding. For example, the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston has diverse income streams. Its earned income is 40%, its endowment income is 40% and fund-raising accounts for between 10% and 15%. The museum focuses on exploiting its assets, which, in its case, are considerable, and does what is known as “sweating the asset" to the maximum.

25. The context in Northern Ireland is different; wonderful, extraordinary collections are available in the UK. Endowments in the USA will suffer because of the recession, and I heard only yesterday that Harvard University’s endowment, which is vast, has decreased by approximately 33%. We often regard with envy the funding of arts in the United States, but that decrease will have a big impact.

26. The move towards social enterprise, as opposed to charitable enterprise, is more relevant here. The creative industries sector operates with a very different model and focus, and, even though it is more entrepreneurial, it still cannot exist without public subsidy. The Oh Yeah Music Centre in Belfast is a very good example of a social enterprise organisation, but it obviously required Government funding to help set it up.

27. A number of the clients that the Arts Council supports have established a trading wing. Such examples include the Belfast Print Workshop and the Belfast Community Circus. They fully exploit the services that they provide to the community and can charge for those services. Other opportunities are seized by arts organisations, and they tend to be very imaginative; for example, through accessing vacant and derated commercial premises. Again, it is important to point out that those are short-term solutions to longer-term problems.

28. Mr Nick Livingston (Arts Council of Northern Ireland): The third item in the inquiry’s terms of reference is:

“To carry out a stocktake of the research which has been carried out to date, regarding the measurement of the economic and social benefits of investing in the arts."

29. I congratulate the Committee for taking on such an ambitious task, because those objectives are very challenging. The arena is complex and, in the 20 years or more that I have been following the issue, there has been a substantial growth in the level of information that emanates from that.

30. Literature that primarily emanates from an advocacy perspective has been hotly disputed — often by cultural economists — for a variety of reasons, not least because the basis upon which the intervention was made was not always clear. For example, it is not always clear how the problem of time lag will be dealt with, how there is clear correlation and how we can attribute some of the findings in the studies to the claimed changes.

31. Looking at the scene across different jurisdictions, at times one will read such literature and almost think that it is a distraction from the underlying reasons why the public fund the arts in the first place — public value and the benefit that emanates from them.

32. Therefore, there are both theoretical and practical problems that are linked to that aspect of the terms of reference. I want to put it on record that there is a dearth of dedicated impact literature in that area in Northern Ireland. That is partly because we in Arts Council have been bounded and cautious about the extent of our claims, and I have highlighted some of the problems related to that, but also because we have preferred to capture evidence from the evaluation of our own funding and projects and the impact that they have had.

33. The Committee knows that there are many ways in which participation in the arts has brought improvements to quality of life and social cohesion. It has also helped to develop community relations and foster local identity. Therefore, in the portfolio, we have assembled a list of areas that the Committee might like to consider. Those areas are listed in section 3 of the submission.

34. We are aware of the increasing importance of the creative industries, which are increasingly being seen as part of a modern knowledge-based economy. There have been a number of landmark studies on the issue by Robert Cushing, Robert Solow of MIT and David Romer of Stanford University. Perhaps the best known one is ‘The Rise of the Creative Class’ by Richard Florida. Those studies have tried to develop theories and metrics on the issue. However, I cannot compress all those studies for the purposes of today’s discussion, so I will lift some key points from them.

35. First, the creative economy helps to reshape our thinking about the economic dynamic. Secondly, the relationship between the most successful cities and regions often attributes importance to drivers that rank talent and creativity highly. Thirdly, regions that attract investment often do so, not from a low-cost base, but because of the amenity of the place and the benefits that it brings.

36. The other point that I want to address is about how the creative industries have expanded to other areas such as film, advertising, production, branding and other forms of commercial manifestation.

37. These have presented all sorts of development opportunities for people working in the arts-sector organisations that we have funded. In recent years, we have seen those opportunities, and the demand for them, grow. Specialist centres in art, design, fashion and communication industries are now prominent throughout the UK.

38. An estimated 3,500 people are employed in the creative industries in Northern Ireland, which represents about 4% of the work force. Northern Ireland lags behind the rest of the UK, not least because it cannot be disassociated with historically low levels of public investment in the arts.

39. I turn now to employment in our sector and its footprint. Our organisations report to us through the review of regularly funded organisations. In 2006-07, the 147 organisations that completed the return accounted for some 3,128 individuals; of those, some 2,300 were artistic staff. That is a combination of those working in a full- and part-time capacity. Volunteering is an important element in a sector that is in many ways under-funded as well.

40. I will touch briefly on our capital programme, the details of which are set out in members’ papers. We have been able to encourage the development of 13 cultural buildings in Northern Ireland; they are now established landmarks that play a prominent part in the communities in which they are located. They are not situated solely in the main conurbation of Belfast; three quarters of awards were made outside Belfast.

41. The arts have helped to establish Northern Ireland as a tourist destination, brought distinctiveness to the tourism product and helped to shape consumer perceptions about Northern Ireland. Vibrant local arts festivals offer year-round programmes, and I have mentioned a few of those by way of illustration.

42. Sending artists abroad reaps much wider benefits and projects a much more vibrant image of Northern Ireland. Projects such as the Venice Biennale, the South by Southwest and Smithsonian festivals have raised the profile of arts from Northern Ireland; they have also attracted significant interest in Northern Ireland as a tourist destination.

43. Regarding children and young people, we touched briefly on skills and employability. That is a key area that the Committee will want to turn to, and we have set out some salient points about Creative Youth Partnerships and the equivalent programme in England.

44. Moving briefly to the social benefits, there are some high-level impacts on healthcare, such as the Dreams Project and the work of the Arts Care initiative. We know that the Committee is particularly interested in regeneration. We have mentioned the large capital programme and the benefits that have attached to it: Armagh, for example, attracts several specialist programme activities, such as the John Hewitt summer school. Those activities are not located just in the main conurbations and cities; many transforming benefits have happened in small and rural communities.

45. The Arts Council takes its obligations on equality and inclusion under relevant legislation very seriously. It has introduced a premium payment programme, and I have explained some of the benefits of that. Many of the organisations that we fund offer rich examples of work that they undertake with people who have disabilities.

46. We will return to the Re-imaging Communities programme shortly. There are also projects which have been directed solely at ethnic minority groups.

47. Ms McDonough: The reality of artistic practice over the past 20 years or so has meant that the distinctions between the different branches of the arts, including community and professional arts, have lost much of their definition and significance. They are much more fluid. Many practitioners would no longer recognise themselves as belonging to fixed categories of artistic practice.

48. Page 23 of our submissions lists a range of artistic activity. It is a fragile, hugely interconnected eco-system; therefore, a small loss in one sphere can have disproportionate consequences. We believe that it is the role of an Arts Council to support the pursuit of excellence and the integrity of artistic practice.

49. We have provided the Committee with a list of the programmes that we run, and with a graph showing the value of grants awarded and the pattern of distribution. The graph of “combined arts" on page 25 includes festivals, venues and cross-artform activity; therefore, although it may look as though combined arts has received a great deal, that figure denotes funding in all those areas. The graph was laid out in that format because all the Arts Councils in these islands have agreed a common classification system for the purposes of establishing, as best as possible, comparability.

50. Community-based arts activity runs as a golden thread through each of the classified art-form areas. I know that the Committee is particularly interested in community arts and arts based in the community; therefore, we have endeavoured to give you a pattern of the spatial distribution of funding in that area. You will want to know, I am sure, why community funding was so high in 2004-05 but greatly reduced in 2005-06. That is not because we reduced our funding to community organisations; rather when we award a three-year grant, it is denoted on the graph in the year in which it is awarded. However, as that grant runs for three years, it will give a slightly different picture.

51. The Arts Council is conscious of its obligation to target social need, and 56% of its funding goes to the 20% most deprived communities in Northern Ireland. We have amended all our application forms and scoring criteria to take into account the rural and urban split and delivery in disadvantaged communities.

52. Ms Lorraine McDowell (Arts Council of Northern Ireland): There are several basic programmes addressing the areas that, historically, have been unable to access funding. Over the past few years, we have reduced the level of partnership funding that community groups must find to access funding. In many cases, the Arts Council funds between 90% and 100% of the cost, where previously it funded between 50% and 75%

53. The Awards for All programme has been running for several years; it is a joint scheme run by all the Lottery distributors. In the past five years, under that scheme, the Arts Council has given £2·7 million to groups, 59% of which have been outside the main areas of Belfast and Derry. As you may know, the Awards for All scheme is coming to an end, and the Arts Council recently launched its own small-grants programme, which will make its first awards at the beginning of April.

(The Deputy Chairperson [Mr McNarry] in the Chair)

54. Under the distribution of grants by the Awards for All programme, traditional arts do very well; for example, through the funding of local Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Eireann (CCE) and other groups. Amateur drama groups and amateur music groups also do well out of that programme. Since 1995, we have awarded grants of £3·9 million to the marching-band sector, 91% of which was allocated outside Belfast and Derry.

55. The STart UP programme was originally funded by DSD under its renewing communities programme, whereby we had £100,000 for a one-year programme; through our officers we provided developmental support and 100% grant aid to local organisations.

56. DSD funding ceased. However, we have found a small budget from our 2009-2010 resources and intend to resume that funding to seed-fund small organisations, which could move on to other schemes.

57. The Art of Regeneration programme looked at positioning the arts at the centre of society and meeting some of Northern Ireland’s social challenges through the arts; key themes were the environment, good relations and antisocial behaviour. In total, we made 10 awards worth £2·4 million to local authorities, both working together as networks, but also with a diverse range of delivery partners, ranging from traditional music schools to community safety partnerships and tenants’ associations.

58. Re-imaging was one of the main programmes that Nick referred to earlier. It is a good example of interdepartmental and interagency working, with funding from the Department for Social Development, the International Fund for Ireland, the Office of the First Minister and the deputy First Minister, and the Housing Executive. Re-imaging considered and addressed neighbourhood renewal areas, anti-sectarian and racist strategies.

59. Page 35 shows where the money has gone. We have supported 112 projects to date: 57 situated in predominantly Protestant areas, 20 in predominately Catholic areas, and 35 in areas that could not be classed as single identity. The effect of that programme is that there is now a great deal of work available throughout Northern Ireland, which can be seen in various areas — 49 of the programmes are in housing estates, 15 are on arterial routes, six are on main thoroughfares and 12 are on interface areas. Its effect has been substantial; we are proud of the programme and would like to see it continue. We are making efforts to secure funds to continue it beyond 2009-2010.

60. Ms McDonough: As regards question 5, we are more than happy to support Research and Library Services in getting that kind of analysis to the Committee. We are pledged to play our part.

61. Finally, there will be a couple of sentences on question 6.

62. Ms McKinney: We have tabled a new page 37 because the figures were wrong in the document, for which I apologise.

63. Question 6 focuses on whether respective art forms receive adequate funding. We have been holding independent reviews of each art form. The Committee will be aware that we made a presentation on the needs of the drama sector, and, soon after, we followed that with a review of dance, which has been published and is being implemented. We are out in the field doing visual arts and opera, and those are due to report, through council, by June 2009. We are looking at all those needs.

64. In the recent past, we looked at architecture and craft. There are some areas in which we feel that we do not need to undertake a root-and- branch review, because the sectors are doing relatively well and we are aware of their needs. However, continuing that programme of work across other areas will depend on available funds.

65. We have set out how well we have been able to meet the requested amounts of funds from each sector through our schemes. However, the whole sector is underfunded, and that is a critical problem across all the art-form areas. Some of the programmes that we mentioned earlier, which are coming to an end — EU and DSD programmes — are having a negative impact. The funding that we give, which is reflected in the table, does not describe all the developmental needs of those organisations and the potential to grow those sectors by any means. It is a hand-to-mouth existence. The areas of artistic quality, marketing and promotion, and education and outreach are just ripe for development, but we do not have the funds to do that.

66. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation; there is much to digest. Those who have digested it fully will ask questions.

67. Mr P Ramsey: Róisín, you are very welcome. The Assembly has an accelerated-passage procedure; you gave an accelerated presentation. You did very well, given the context and the breadth of material covered.

68. You must have been busy bees in your office. I take your point about the Re-imaging Communities Programme, and we all recognise that there is such a thing as cultural poverty. The Arts Council creates the capacity for confidence in communities; however, there is not enough money to go round.

69. We talk about the needs of the various Departments and particularly those of the voluntary sector in regard to the cocktail of funding available. Have other regions developed models of practice to mainstream the arts sector and make it easier to access funding? I imagine that the job of co-ordinating funding for the arts — let alone creating an interest in them among young people — is the main problem.

70. Is the Arts Council aware of any innovative approaches that have been used in other countries and regions for generating income for the arts, beyond central Government and lottery funding? Are there any best practice models? Are you aware of any other models or principles for the allocation of funding that overarch the two arts councils on the island?

71. It took a long time even to prepare the original brief, but the more we examined this issue, the more we wondered whether we were wise to do what we were doing, given that the VALCAL report failed because it could not find qualitative evidence. Can we get the evidence? We are not trying to reinvent the wheel, but we are mindful of the contribution that culture, arts and leisure make to communities.

72. Ms McDonough: I am willing to have a stab at answering those questions.

73. The Deputy Chairperson: There is no stabbing here. [Laughter.]

74. Ms McDonough: Other European countries have different funding models. For example, many countries, instead of having arm’s-length bodies, have ministries of culture that directly fund museums and heritage organisations and perhaps national companies. However, those ministries tend not to fund the independent arts sector, including the community and voluntary sectors. Therefore, it is difficult to draw comparisons with other European countries. That is my first point.

75. We are happy to play whatever part we can and to conduct an international literature review of the different types of funding that are available in Europe. Indeed, we have already endeavoured to give you a hint of what it is like in America, where public subsidy for the arts is anything between 5%, 10% or 15%. That money is raised through income tax, endowments, and high-net-worth individuals. If one sits on a board for the arts in America, one is expected to make a direct financial contribution.

76. We do not have such a system here; we do not have the capacity to generate such funding. As I said, we are happy to work to support Library and Research Services and to conduct the international literature search on the different models of funding. We meet other arts councils regularly to exchange information; we also have joint funding schemes on aspects of our programming. Essentially, all the arts councils have the same characteristics, because they were born out of the same post-Keynesian model that said that the arts require public subsidy.

77. Of course, we always encourage our arts organisations to diversify their income streams as best as possible. Nóirín already described endeavours in that regard. We are very grateful for the money that we received for the creative industries; I am sure that you heard the Minister announce that we are processing 340 applications. Even the creative industries, which have a more entrepreneurial dimension, need public subsidy to grow from a micro- business to a standard small or medium-sized business.

78. It is a complex and difficult matter. I do not know how to answer your question. I do not think that there are even one or two simple — or even complex — transferable models, because the context in which we operate is very different from that of countries outside these islands.

79. Mr P Ramsey: We can consider models of best practice in Europe or America. Can we genuinely, and from a distance, measure the outcomes of the culture ministry in Budapest, for example?

80. Mr Livingston: That would be very difficult; the analytical framework makes it difficult to make comparisons. Interventions and the policies that drive them might be different; even simple things such as time lag would have an effect. There might be a delay between an intervention occurring and the change that is attributed to it being recorded. I imagine that it would present difficulties.

81. Mr McCarthy: You have given us a comprehensive presentation. According to your written submission, the Republic spends twice as much — and more — on the arts, and that seems to have been the case for some time. Does the border make such a difference between the psyche in the arts in the North and in the South to cause such a vast difference in funding?

82. Ms McDonough: Yes.

83. Mr McCarthy: How could we get the powers that be here to come up to the mark? The needs of the South are the same as ours.

84. Ms McDonough: There are a couple of elements. First, the advent of the Celtic tiger, which, sadly, has gone, produced a society with increased wealth, ambition and aspiration. Culture was seen as a driver of the wider economy, and the investment that was made in arts and culture was regarded by successive Governments as a proud example of a mature and culturally confident society on a world stage. Michael D Higgins, a former Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, developed a strong policy of support for the arts, which has continued for many years. The situation has altered, and the Arts Council in the Republic has been forced to reduce its budget and its support for arts organisations. Nevertheless, the disparity between North and South exists.

85. Mr McCarthy: I remember Michael D Higgins; he was a high-profile character. Should we have someone like him to attract more funding?

86. Ms McDonough: As Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, he laid a strong foundation to build on.

87. The Deputy Chairperson: Are you concerned, Kieran, that the Celtic tiger’s ceasing to roar will have a knock-on effect? Significant reductions are being made there, but will the loss of the buoyancy in the South’s arts sector be reflected here in that we do not need to compete with it as much?

88. Mr McCarthy: Yes. It will affect us, because we are all in the same boat; we will have to cut our coat according to our cloth. It is disappointing that, in the twenty-first century, the arts are living from hand to mouth. Keep up the good work.

89. Ms McDonough: Thank you.

(The Chairperson [Mr McElduff] in the Chair)

90. Mr K Robinson: Thank you for your comprehensive presentation. Have you identified those communities that have historically received low levels of funding for the arts? When you allocate money for the arts, how do you take into account the need to engage with communities that have found it difficult to develop an arts infrastructure and access arts funding?

91. That question comes up again and again. Communities may approach their MLA and ask whether there is funding for an arts project that they wish to undertake. We may suggest the Arts Council; but community representatives’ reaction is often that they are not artistic and so should not approach you. I know that the Arts Council has amended its forms; however, community groups used to be daunted by enormous forms — not just from the Arts Council but from other bodies too. That frightened off many people.

92. Ms McDowell: When identifying areas we consider the whole funding picture. We established the profile of our funding over a five-year period and asked ourselves whether any areas had missed out completely on funding. During the STart UP programme, we employed officers whose job it was to work in areas that had been identified as receiving low levels of funding. They worked with the community relations officers and local authority arts officers to identify groups that they could contact. You will see from the list of groups that we worked with that it does not necessarily reflect everyone’s perception of where the Arts Council’s money goes.

93. Our arts officers work constantly with organisations to identify groups that we have not funded before. I hope that our forms are not as horrendous as they once were; to some extent, we have standardised them. We have a group of officers and assistant officers who work face-to-face with organisations to help them to complete forms and to get them on the first rung of the funding ladder so that they can make progress.

94. Mr K Robinson: Your officers go out and meet those groups, which is good since a hand-holding exercise is often required; one sees it in different facets of society. How do you hold the community’s hand through completing forms and helping them to know what to do with the funds that they might receive?

95. Ms McDowell: We guide them through the process by talking to their committee, considering their strengths and weaknesses and helping them to identify people, apart from Arts Council officers, who can help them through the process. We offer help in governance, and we offer training in how to manage financial systems. We have people who study an organisation’s financial system, and they will suggest improvements if necessary. We also provide lists of artists who can help.

96. Mr K Robinson: Page 23 of your submission states:

“a recent illustration of this finely balanced symbiosis".

97. What exactly do you mean by that word?

98. Ms McDonough: The arts sector hangs together. There is a “symbiotic" relationship; that is a medical term. The arts sector is a living organism.

99. Mr K Robinson: Does it require surgery?

100. Ms McDonough: To use a health analogy, we would like a radical cash injection.

101. Mr K Robinson: Will the patient recover?

102. Ms McDonough: The patient would be alive and well and very well developed.

103. The Chairperson: I prefer “the synergy of two art forms" to “symbiosis".

104. Lord Browne: You referred to the community arts sector, but the professional arts sector is also important. How do you decide how much to distribute to each? Do you monitor the figures from the professional arts community?

105. Ms McDonough: In our presentation, we endeavoured to show the diversity in artistic practice. Many who work in communities describe themselves as highly professional, and that is a view to which we also subscribe. Professional artists of a high calibre also work in various community contexts. There is a mixture of artistic practice and engagement in communities, as well as community arts organisations that are concerned as much with the process of engagement and how people access the arts as with the product achieved as a consequence of that or the performance that is staged.

106. Therefore, the diversity of practice is huge. If people look at many of our festivals, they will gain an appreciation of the spread that exists. Some people may have a certain perception about professional artists and professional arts organisations. In our presentation, we have tried to give a sense that they are actually delivering services and are being funded to do that work in communities. As I said, almost 60% of our funding goes to the 20% most deprived areas in Northern Ireland. We are very pleased with and proud of that record, because some people still have a lingering perception, which you referred to, that the arts are not for them.

107. Indeed, the very term “the arts" can be off-putting. When one engages with some people to describe what the arts might involve, it enables and facilitates them to access certain aspects that they previously did not necessarily consider to be part of “the arts". They simply viewed them as something that they enjoy doing.

108. The Chairperson: Recently, someone told me that I was not really a patron of the arts and that I just liked to have fun, as if the two were mutually exclusive.

109. Ms McDonough: They are not incompatible, and we know that.

110. Mr McCartney: I want to expand on that, not to make a criticism but to give a general viewpoint. Sometimes people say that there are community arts that are not necessarily community based. A lot of community arts exhibitions might take place at a city-centre venue, but some people might say that they feel distant from that. Do you have anything in place to bridge that gap?

111. In another Committee, we are looking at budgets and have invited groups to talk about that. Where do you see the main gaps in funding in the provision of the arts? Do you have an estimate of the minimum amount of funding that is needed to fill those gaps?

112. There is a sense that a lot of repeat funding is provided. Do you set any targets for certain groups to bring sustainability to a project to run alongside their reliance on funding so that they can be weaned off that reliance?

113. Ms McDonough: Your first question was on the perceived gap between community arts based activities in a particular geographical community as opposed to those that other arts organisations might run for educational purposes and for reaching in to those communities. There is no easy answer to that question in that we believe that when arts organisations reach in and do work alongside local people in communities, it can sometimes stretch their experience of the arts. That is very important, as is their own artistic practice in their local communities.

114. There should always be a healthy mixture right across the artistic spectrum, because that is how people learn and engage. That can be very pleasurable and very stimulating. Over the past six or seven years, I have discerned a trend of change in the orientation of many arts organisations and a recognition that they need to go in and work in local communities. Education, outreach and access are not simply bolted on by organisations; they take that seriously, and we have encouraged them to do so for a long time.

115. We have provided some figures on the gap. We reckon that, in any one year, the funding gap is anywhere between £3 million and £4 million, depending on the range and type of programmes.

116. Our bid was outlined in our ‘Time for the Arts’ submission, and it was for core funding. We were not looking at the additional schemes, such as Creative Youth Partnerships and the many other hugely important programmes that we run, including Re-imaging Communities. I hope that we have shown that the picture has not altered since we made that bid. We have had a bit more money; however, most of our money was backloaded into the third year of the comprehensive spending review, because there are a number of new venues coming on stream and they will require additional support.

117. We are concerned, though, that we may lose some of the gains that we made, particularly in year three, and we want to work with the Committee to ensure that that money is not pulled back to the detriment of the arts, especially given the fact that we are in a very different and difficult economic climate.

118. Mr McCausland: Thank you for your presentation. It raises a lot of questions and contains a lot of information, and it is very valuable.

119. You mentioned 13 major capital projects, and your submission lists some others, such as An Gaelaras, which was funded through the integrated development fund (IDF). Does that not fall within the 13 major capital projects?

120. Ms McDonough: The Arts Council co-funded it.

121. Mr McCausland: Was that included in the 13, or is it an extra one?

122. Ms McDowell: Thirteen is the total.

123. Mr McCausland: How much money do you have in your budget each year for capital works? Is it a single tranche?

124. Ms McDowell: Capital projects were previously funded through Lottery money. That has dwindled, so we now have a capital line under ISNI II, which shows investment over the next 10 years. For 2009-2010, we have a budget of £2 million, which increases to £4 million over the life of the ISNI. That £2 million is split between a number of programmes. We fund equipment, we fund —

125. Mr McCausland: Out of the £2 million?

126. Ms McDowell: Yes. We have to find money for equipment, public art, musical instruments for bands, and construction. That is the basis of it.

127. Mr McCausland: As regards construction, is it right to say that you are talking about quite a small amount?

128. Ms McDowell: Yes, and we would profile it. Given that we have a guarantee that that £2 million increases to £4 million over the life of the ISNI, we will have to start profiling in future financial years.

129. Mr McCausland: Are you already committed to all that?

130. Ms McDowell: The programme is open at the moment.

131. Mr McCausland: When does it close?

132. Ms McDowell: Off the top of my head, it closes in about two weeks’ time. At that point, we will know what the initial demand on the funds will be.

133. Mr McCausland: Is there is only one tranche each year.

134. Ms McDowell: Yes.

135. Mr McCausland: Developmental issues and the issue of under-representation in certain sectors have been discussed by the Committee on various occasions, and they almost go into the “too difficult" box at times. I understand the point of sending out outreach or development workers to work with groups. However, sometimes one tries to deal with people, but there is no one to engage with, because the group is run entirely by volunteers who have difficulty maintaining their own programmes, never mind having to consider how to extend them — just keeping the show going is difficult enough. Often, the difficulty for them is the competitive process of funding, as they are in against the big boys. There is a need to not merely have outreach schemes, but to address the structural and systemic issues that led to underdevelopment.

136. Why is there underdevelopment and under-representation in certain areas? Why do people just keep doing their own thing without engaging with the arts establishment? That is an issue in many Protestant and unionist communities in particular. I remember a Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure meeting from some time ago; Ms McDonough was there, and underdevelopment and under-representation were on the agenda. I set up a working group, which met twice and then disintegrated, because nobody else seemed to have any interest in the issue. I remember turning up for the last meeting and there was no one else there. They forgot to tell me that it had been cancelled. [Laughter.] I got a complex after that.

137. It is not enough to acknowledge that funding needs to be increased, it is imperative that it is spread more widely so that the under- represented communities avail themselves of it. How do you build that into your programmes?

138. Before I came here this morning, I was talking to a group that is made up entirely of volunteers. They have managed to obtain funding for the past five or six years, but the funds were cut this year. Every individual on the group is a volunteer; they run an excellent programme, and it requires huge commitment, but the ground has been cut from under them. Somebody suggested that they apply for Lottery funding, but they do not accept Lottery money. How do you deal with those issues?

139. Ms McDonough: There are difficult issues, but I do not think that they are “too difficult". It does not fall into that category. The only thing to do is painstakingly chip away at it. As you know, Nelson, we have been trying to support local individual organisations as well as trying to work with some of the developmental and support agencies. The Arts Council cannot do it all by itself. The arts may well be but one potential expression of a wider problem. We have a part to play, and we are doing that. When one looks at our spatial pattern of funding across Northern Ireland and at some of the programmes that we operate, one will see that they are taken up by the type of communities that you have described.

140. There is always more to be done, because there will always be somebody and some section of community that is vulnerable, marginalised or disadvantaged for a range of reasons. We need to continue to engage with them, and that is why we have introduced our premium payment. We are the only arts council that does that. Anyone who is disadvantaged by having to care for somebody, by rural access or by a disability, for instance, will receive a premium payment on top of the grant. That payment will facilitate their engagement. We are proud of that premium, and we have been paying it for the past five or six years. We have been commended for it by the Equality Commission; we take such issues seriously. They are difficult, but we will, painstakingly, keep going.

141. Mr McCausland: Have systemic or structural ethos issues led to that lower level of development and engagement in some communities?

142. Ms McDonough: I do not know whether I am equipped to answer that, but one does see greater degrees of disaffection or disengagement in some areas; that is a general problem. There are specific contours of it in Northern Ireland, but one will find people anywhere on these islands and beyond who feel remote from the institutions of the state and from the Government. That is how citizens are drifting away from engagement. Trust is important, as is the building of direct contact and engagement. We suffer from that in Northern Ireland as well.

143. Mr McCausland: I am not thinking of communities that feel disengaged from Government or society, but from the arts world.

144. Ms McDonough: I have endeavoured to provide responses to that. We will keep going, because that is the right thing to do.

145. Mr McCausland: That is the right thing to do, but is there not a more fundamental issue? Should we look at whether there are systemic and structural ethos issues that work to deter — or which have the effect of deterring — those communities from engaging?

146. I will give you an example. Gary Mitchell is due to appear before the Committee some time in the near future. He has expressed very clear views about how certain cultural perspectives do not receive the same representation as others in drama, theatre and broadcasting. That is what I am talking about — the lack of role models. If someone from a Protestant/unionist background looks around their community, they cannot see playwrights and so on who come from their background and who openly say “that is my community" — in the way that Gary Mitchell does.

147. I clearly remember being at a conference held by Forum for Local Government and the Arts (FLGA) in Enniskillen. Some people’s jaws nearly hit the floor when they heard some of the things that Gary said that day. The matter raises a question that must be considered. Yes, the Arts Council is right to do the steady, plodding work, but that may not be sufficient to compensate for those other issues, which are much more structured and systemic. Do you see those as issues that need to be addressed?

148. Ms McDonough: You mentioned Gary Mitchell, who is one of our well-known playwrights, and we are very pleased to have supported his work. As the Arts Council has supported him, from our perspective, the work is of value. He is an important playwright, and we have rightly supported him.

149. Mr McCausland: Absolutely, but if I consider the world of playwrights, he is the only person that somebody from my community can look at and say, “Yeah, I can understand where that guy is coming from; he is from my community."

150. Ms McDonough: There are others; we are working with Jonathan Burgess.

151. Mr McCausland: I am familiar with Jonathan’s work, and I meet him from time to time, but I think that he has experienced difficulties as well.

152. Ms McDonough: The creation, development and support for talent is a complex process. We ring-fenced 20% of our individual artist awards so that they would be awarded to new and up-and-coming artists across all the art forms, including drama. As an arts council, it is important that we develop, nurture and grow new talent and that we have specific financial instruments that will help people to buy the time and space that they need to create their work. It is not always simply a case of those who are well known receiving repeat awards.

153. Mr Brolly: I am tempted to ask whether you have a separate rate for Catholics and Protestants?

154. Ms McDonough: No, we do not.

155. Mr McNarry: I do not believe you. [Laughter.]

156. Ms McDonough: The answer is a categorical no.

157. Mr Brolly: You will not be surprised if I mention the Ulster Orchestra. It has half of the funding per head compared with that in the Twenty- six Counties, and we also have one-third of the heads, yet we are trying to maintain an orchestra that is probably quite expensive, and will probably be even more expensive in the next few years. Previously, I mentioned the possibility of having one orchestra, without diminishing what the orchestra offers, apart from concerts and servicing places such as Castleward and providing tutoring and coaching and so on. Given that most of the members of the orchestra are not from here at all — very few of them are locals — I would like to know what percentage of the Ulster Orchestra comes from anywhere near here.

158. Mr McNarry: Where is “here", just as a matter of interest?

159. Ms McDonough: There are quite a few who live and work here.

160. Mr McNarry: Which “here" are you talking about?

161. Mr Brolly: Here, here. [Laughter.]

162. Mr McNarry: Conor Murphy’s “here"?

163. Mr Brolly: To finish asking my questions, fundamentally, are we getting value for money? Are there enough people participating or is the audience of a sufficient size to allow us to rationalise the funding? The table in your submission that details the amount of funding received from the Arts Council shows that the Ulster Orchestra gets the most. How much do we fund the Ulster Orchestra in comparison with the rest of the organisations in that column of the table?

164. The Chairperson: Ken has a supplementary to that question.

165. Mr K Robinson: Your presentation refers to impact studies and mentions that every £1 revenue subsidy that the Ulster Orchestra gets equates to a £1·90 attraction of funding. How does that equate to other regional orchestras — for example, in Scotland and Wales?

166. Ms McDonough: I do not have those particular figures. As you know, there are four full-time professional orchestras in the Republic: the RTÉ National Symphony Orchestra; the RTÉ Concert Orchestra; the Irish Chamber Orchestra; and one part-time “gigging" orchestra, Camerata Ireland, which operates on an all-island basis. There is also our own Ulster Orchestra.

167. The funding that is given through RTÉ is different. It is true that our own orchestra gets money from the BBC, but we are their principal funder. There are many issues surrounding that. The first is that each of the orchestras that I described has its own particular target group that it relates to. They all have different functions, so to compare them would not be comparing like with like, as each is distinct in what it does. The Ulster Orchestra employs 80 people and has a turnover of approximately £4 million.

168. I know that when people think of the orchestra, they tend to think of middle class and middle-aged or elderly people going along to a concert on a weekend, either in the Ulster Hall or the Waterfront Hall.

169. Mr McNarry: That is not true — I go to them. [Laughter.]

170. Ms McDonough: The orchestra is very conscious of that image. However, the Ulster Orchestra was able to provide me with an amazing list of work that it does outside of the concert confines. Concerts are but one aspect of its work. The work that the orchestra does is very impressive, but the fundamental question is whether Northern Ireland wants to have an orchestra. The fact is that it is not possible to tinker with an orchestra too much — if its membership goes below a certain number it is no longer viable. Therefore, the issue is not that the orchestra is bloated or over-funded by us. In fact, the orchestra really struggles. Our guidance to all arts organisations — although it seems a far-fetched fantasy — is that they should try to have six months reserves in their coffers, in order to withstand stormy weather. However, that is simply impossible.

171. Mr McNarry: If they would form into a football team they could get their own stadium and get their own concerts, according to what we heard in our previous session.

172. Ms McDonough: The other thing that I wanted to say is that players in the Ulster Orchestra are the lowest paid in the UK.

173. Mr Livingston: If one considers the organisations that have generated income through a diverse range of other activities, such as sponsorship and trusts, it is clear that the Ulster Orchestra is the most enterprising in that category.

174. Mr P Ramsey: My question does not need to be answered today. You talked about your budget being stretched, and we all know of the pressures on local authorities and DSD, as well as the pressures that have been created by the removal of labour-renewal moneys, peace moneys being more focused and the withdrawal of Lottery funding. Can you quantify the pressure that that is putting on the existing budget? Perhaps you can come back to the Committee on that at a later stage.

175. The Chairperson: You can note that question for now.

176. Ms McDonough: We will note that and come back to it. Thank you.

177. The Chairperson: I thank Roisín, Nóirín, Lorraine and Nick for a very engaging session — they have started off our formal inquiry into the arts and they will be back, thank God, to hear more.

5 March 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr Philip McDonagh		PricewaterhouseCoopers
Ms Anne Tohill Ms Michelle Scott Dr Michael Willis		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure

178. The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McNarry): I invite Research and Library Services to brief members on the research papers.

179. The Committee Researcher: This presentation provides information on the potential economic benefits that arise from sport, arts, museums and libraries in the United Kingdom. Reference is made to the ability to financially quantify the benefits of expenditure on such activities. I will focus on the abandonment of phase 2 of the PricewaterhouseCoopers study of the social and economic value of culture, arts and leisure in Northern Ireland (ValCAL). I will make reference to producing potential quantifiable benefits of Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) activities.

180. The ‘Valuing Museums’ report estimated that the full economic impact of the museums and galleries sector was between £1·83 billion and £2·07 billion. The report also estimated that approximately £320 million a year was spent in the UK by overseas visitors on museums and gallery visits. According to research carried out by the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions, seven out of 10 top visitor attractions in the UK are national museums. There are over 42 million visits each year to major museums and galleries in Britain, with 43% of the population having attended a museum or gallery at least once in the past year.

181. The self-generated income of museums and galleries in Britain can be as high as £200 million a year, including over £100 million in donations and sponsorship, over £100 million in trading income, and some £20 million in ticket sales. For every £1 of public funding that is received by the British Library, £4·40 is generated for the UK economy: if the British Library did not operate, the UK economy would lose some £280 million a year.

182. Sport-related economic activity increased between 1985 and 2000, representing a financial increase from £3·35 million to £10·373 million. The amount of sport-related economic activity increased again in 2005, to £15·471 million. Employment in sport increased by 19% between 2000 and 2005. Sport-related employment in England was estimated at 434,000 in 2005, accounting for 1·8% of all employment. Customer expenditure in sports in England was £16·58 million in 2005, an increase from £3·538 million in 1985, representing a per capita spend of 0·03p.

183. Impacts such as community cohesion, education, reduction in crime and social inclusion are complicated to quantify. The difficulty with these impacts is their nebulous nature. With many of these impacts, the benefits cannot be measured initially or in financial terms. Any benefits derived are more likely to be seen at a local and community level, rather than providing an overarching regional benefit. It is more appropriate to provide benefit ratios for types of projects and initiatives, but it is not appropriate to estimate the benefit ratio of funding at the individual community and regional levels. The data is either not available or does not lend itself to analysis at those levels.

184. Phase 2 of the PricewaterhouseCoopers (PWC) study of the social and economic value of culture, arts and leisure in Northern Ireland was to produce an economic model from available data on DCAL activities, expressed in monetary terms. However, the project steering group rejected the proposal to progress this phase of the project, mainly because of concerns about data availability and the complex nature of intervention in the arts and sports business areas.

185. The nebulous nature of social benefits makes the construction of any economic model rely heavily on assumptions, resulting in the robustness of the model itself being undermined. The purpose of phase 2 was to design an economic model to quantify the net direct and indirect social and economic impacts for each DCAL business area. The economic model was also to consider whether synergies between DCAL business areas were present, and how that could impact on the model.

186. The requirement of the economic model was that it be robust and capable of being expressed in monetary terms. The project steering group decided to abandon phase 2, concluding that it would not represent value for money, given that work to develop the economic models alone would have cost DCAL at least a further £61,905, with no guarantee of a robust output. The model would have been open to criticism and challenge.

187. Economic impact analysis is concerned with identifying and measuring the changes that occur, or would be likely to occur, in an economy as a direct or indirect result of a new public and private initiative. Indirect costs and benefits can prove more difficult to evaluate, particularly if they have no market price. A cost-benefit analysis attempts to determine the value of an activity to society as a whole. That economic methodology sees the social value of an activity as based on individual valuations of that activity, with a focus on economic efficiency.

188. The criticisms of cost-benefit analysis are concerned with identifying appropriate measures of the costs and benefits associated with an activity in situations where market prices do not provide a reliable guide. The following issues must be considered: market prices not reflecting social costs and benefits; public activities themselves affecting market prices; outputs from an activity not being sold in markets, so that prices are unavailable; substantial public goods or externalities being associated with the activity. When valuing non-market impacts, the green book indicates that an alternative approach to valuation is required in order to quantify potential social, health or environmental impacts.

189. Key considerations that may impact on a decision to commission a piece of research would include: whether the research is likely to produce a robust valuation; the range of application of results of a study to future appraisals; how much the accuracy of the valuation impacts on any decision- making process; and the scale of the impact of that decision. A decision, therefore, must be taken in relation to the allocation of resources to ensure that valuations of non-market benefits and costs are accurate.

190. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much. That was a comprehensive and competent presentation, as usual.

191. Mr McCarthy: At the start of your presentation, you mentioned sponsorship of museums and galleries. Can you go over that again? I recall a previous meeting when we talked about the lack of sponsorship.

192. The Committee Researcher: That point relates to self-generated income. The report that I mentioned is based solely on the experience in Britain.

193. Mr McCarthy: By Britain, do you mean across the water — England, Scotland and Wales?

194. The Committee Researcher: Yes. They have worked out how much self-generated income that sector provides. That self-generated income of £200 million a year includes £100 million in donations and sponsorship that the sector attracts for itself. In other words, the sector is producing that for itself, for its own financial gain.

195. Mr Shannon: I am sorry that I was not here earlier, but I have read the notes, so I have a wee bit of background.

196. The Deputy Chairperson: You are bluffing, then?

197. Mr Shannon: That is your terminology, but it is certainly not mine. I always do my homework before meetings.

198. Is it wise to place so much emphasis on private sponsorship? Formula one racing is a supreme example of where you might think some finance would be available. Is it wise to place so much emphasis on that in the report, especially at a time when people in big companies are watching their pennies, or rather their millions. The reality is that some people who might want to be private sponsors may be thinking that this is not a good time for them to do so. In other words, if someone has budgeted for it and they are trying to achieve something, but it may not be guaranteed or it may not happen, I just wonder whether we are wise to do it.

199. The Committee Researcher: The figures that I produced were sourced from a report that was produced around 2005, before the economic slump. Therefore, those are figures and ways forward that were thought of at that time. In light of what has happened in the economic sector, an overemphasis on private sponsorship might not be one of the best ways forward, but it is still an element that must be included in trying to stimulate some kind of outcome.

200. Mr Shannon: I accept that some people will continue to sponsor events. Many people have asked whether they have got the maximum out of private sponsorship. I do not think that that will be possible at the moment, so it is important not to place too much emphasis on it.

201. Mr P Ramsey: You are very welcome, and the report is very good. Presumably, the ValCAL study commenced with the best of intentions, but, looking at it now, there are four distinct areas. How was someone going to collate the information on those areas to build a model on the way forward? Was the data pulled together solely within the confines of Northern Ireland? Public expenditure on the arts in Dublin, for example, is twice that of Northern Ireland. Where is the qualitative evidence that was used to convince the Irish Government to invest in the arts? Was it the social impact? Was it regeneration? Was it the economic impact?

202. I do not see that being done with any purpose in the ValCAL study. I sense that they were all over the place, because they supported libraries and the arts. If the focus was purely on the arts, can we ascertain what qualitative evidence would be necessary to convince our Executive that there is a good rationale behind it — that is, it is in the interests of people’s health and the economy? That is the bottom line of what we are trying to achieve. We are meeting the representatives who were progressing ValCAL, but did you get any statistical evidence from other areas regarding the rationale behind increasing funding?

203. The Committee Researcher: ValCAL is a Northern Ireland study. It looks at DCAL’s investments for Northern Ireland — how much money is going in, and what benefits are associated with that. The reasons for investing go back to trying to model the social impact. The regional spend on the arts here is lower than in other UK regions. It is difficult to model in an overarching regional way — you have to see the benefit at community level, right down to individual level. Therefore, the value that is attached to that will put it up the agenda in terms of spend. You see the benefit of spend at an individual level and, therefore, there nearly has to be an individual rationale for the spend.

204. With regard to ValCAL, the problem arises when one tries to put all the different sectors that DCAL manages into an economic model. If they are all put together, there is no point in having a model that would be very expensive to generate if it is not robust at the end of the process. Such a model could not be used to justify an increase in spend. Therefore, the process that you had gone through would be a waste of time and money at that point.

205. The focus seems to be on all the sectors. From my reading, I think that libraries are slightly different from the arts, museums and galleries, because the data for libraries is more robust for economic modelling. There are different factors — you can rate the participation of people who come in and use that service. However, consider trying to evaluate the health benefits of sport. How would you rate a person’s participation in a sport and whether his or her participation is active or passive? Those are the difficulties in trying to evaluate the economic benefits. That is how tangled up the process can become.

206. Mr P Ramsey: That is my point. There is no commonality between the areas. You cannot look at the true value of the exercise, because the fours areas are distinctly different.

207. Mr K Robinson: Thank you for your excellent paper. Pat has touched on some of the ideas that I also wanted to raise. We are looking at the sectors in a disparate way, and yet there is a lot of linkage between them. You mentioned libraries. The way in which a library is used here is very different from the way in which a library is used in a city such as Dublin or London. In London, a person might go to the library and then build that into a series of events — they might go the theatre, a football match, or an art exhibition in the Tate. Is there any way in which we can draw those strands together by coming at it from a slightly different angle?

208. We are trying to generate jobs and money for the economy here. Take the hypothetical visitor to Northern Ireland. You said that 2% of employment in Canada and England is supported by this. We are trying to employ 2% of our population similarly. What do visitors arriving on our shores, either by air or sea, come to see? What cultural activities are they likely to involve themselves in? They may go to a soccer game, a rugby game, or a Gaelic match. They will want to go to the theatre. They may or may not want to go to a library. The Public Record Office is relocating to the centre of Belfast. Can we build these types of factors into the model too? We are looking at the issue of employment and involvement in the arts, but we are not looking at it in a silo.

209. If my wife and I go to London, I want to see a show. On a Saturdy, I go to a football match, and she, unfortunately, goes shopping. Perhaps we would also go to another area of London to look at the architecture, or to visit a museum or a library. How can we pull those packages out of the silos and put them together? Northern Ireland needs something that visitors can use that will generate money for our economy by their being selective in their use of it. Is there some way in which we can pull those points together?

210. The Committee Researcher: Putting it all together, that seems to be the reason why — [Interruption.]

211. As you said, there are close linkages and synergies between tourism and different aspects of DCAL. For example, top visitor attractions such as museums and galleries have a spin-off effect and attract people into the other areas that you identified.

212. Constructing an economic model on something that does not have a market value makes it difficult to get the rationale for spend. Linking those areas with tourism might be a better way in which to get an economic angle. It could help to show how the money can be spread out and how one DCAL investment could have a ripple effect on other areas.

213. Mr K Robinson: If a person comes here, they need to be fed and watered, they need accommodation, and they need transport to get to different locations. All of those processes generate incomes, although we could not tie them in and say that they are artistic exploits. However, they are necessary parts of the infrastructure that allow visitors to engage with various sectors such as sport and the arts.

214. The Committee Researcher: Those sectors — the arts and museums — are the headline attractions.

215. Mr K Robinson: They are the magnets.

216. The Committee Researcher: They are the magnets. The rationale for investing in those areas is that they will generate better rail links or infrastructure. Perhaps that is the rationale for having those: to try and draw more people in, especially now, at this time of economic difficulty.

217. Mr K Robinson: I was listening to the radio on my way here this morning, and I heard that this morning’s flight from Munich was delayed. Why do people go to Munich? The beer festival is the obvious attraction, but there are other artistic experiences. Anyone who is attracted to that location will experience a wide range of Germanic activities.

218. Turning that around, there may have been people on that plane this morning who were coming to visit Northern Ireland. Other than arriving here and having a pint of Guinness, what are we going to provide, what do we currently provide, or what should we provide for them? Can we provide other experiences for them? What can be done to generate the economy and, in turn, plough money back into artistic and sporting areas?

219. The Deputy Chairperson: That is a valid point that you are making.

220. Mr K Robinson: That is the gospel according to Ken. There are other views, but we are missing an opportunity if we consider the arts totally in isolation.

221. The Deputy Chairperson: Perhaps if you went shopping with your wife more often, Ken, you might not spend so much time alone.

222. Mr K Robinson: There is something called plastic, but I do not have the hang of that yet.

223. Mr McCartney: You mentioned sport-related economic activity. What does that cover? Is that from professional sportspeople right down to TV people?

224. The Committee Researcher: Sport-related economic activity covers every aspect of sport, right down to retail. It includes the selling of items, the purchase of tickets, going to matches and the spend that occurs there. It also includes the professional sector.

225. Mr McCartney: That area accounts for 1·8% of all employment in England, but what are the figures for Scotland, Wales, here in the North, and down South? Is that data available?

226. The Committee Researcher: I can go and —

227. Mr McCartney: The actual sum of money seems to be very high in relation to the number of people who are employed. I am just wondering what the impact is of professional sport —

228. The Deputy Chairperson: Do you like those figures, Raymond?

229. Mr McCartney: Yes. In England, professional sportspeople are paid more than anywhere else, so it would be interesting to see the comparison.

230. The Committee Researcher: The figure is slightly at odds with the percentage employment because it includes domestic spend, which is people who buy football kits and so on. Sport-related economic activity is any kind of money that is being generated through sport as a whole. I will get those figures.

231. Mr McCausland: I have a quick observation about visitors, which is the same theme to which Ken referred. Yesterday, I saw the visitor figures for places in Northern Ireland that should be substantial tourist attractions and should draw tens of thousands of visitors every year. Those places should have a substantial appeal — not just for local people, but particularly for visitors from America — but the visitor figures are a few hundred, perhaps 1,000. The visitor figures for the ancestral homes of American Presidents are appallingly low. Income for arts organisations and cultural sites could be increased by substantially improving marketing.

232. There is one other issue that I will touch on. Pat spoke about it when he compared the situation here to that in Dublin. In Northern Ireland, do nationalist-controlled or unionist-controlled councils spend more on the arts? Generally, the answer is that nationalist councils spend more. Why is that?

233. Last week, I raised the point about unionist perceptions and experiences of the arts. That is a concern for me as a unionist, but it should also be a concern for the Arts Council, because the result is that the Arts Council does not receive the investment that it could from some unionist councils. The number of people going to many of the events might increase if it addressed some of those issues.

234. The Deputy Chairperson: You have made that point twice. In the development of the Committee’s work, I am sure that Committee members will be comfortable for us to address that issue.

235. There will now be a joint presentation from PricewaterhouseCoopers and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure on the ValCAL study, on which they have been working together.

236. Ms Anne Tohill (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): I will make the introductions.

237. The Deputy Chairperson: Our rules are strict: please take no more than 10 minutes for your presentation. After that, Committee members will ask questions. Please stick to the time limit — I will remind you if you are getting close to it.

238. Ms Tohill: I am responsible for the arts and creativity branch of DCAL; Philip McDonagh is the chief economist at PricewaterhouseCoopers and has led research at the company; Dr Michael Willis was the head of research and statistics in DCAL until a week ago, and he is here to represent the central management unit; and Michelle Scott is the head of the economic services unit in DCAL. Thank you for the opportunity to brief the Committee on the reasons for the ValCAL study.

239. The Deputy Chairperson: You are very welcome.

240. Mr Philip McDonagh (PricewaterhouseCoopers): Thank you for the opportunity to give a presentation.

241. As Ms Tohill said, I am an economist, but I have always had a particular interest in the economics of the arts. I have worked with a number of arts organisations over the years — indeed, I am a member of one — and worked on arts projects, particularly on business cases and economic appraisals. One of my first jobs in PricewaterhouseCoopers was a business case for what was known at the time as the East Wall cultural complex; it became the Millennium Forum in Derry. I have also worked on the Omagh leisure complex, the Burnavon Arts and Cultural Centre in Cookstown and, most recently, the new Metropolitan Arts Centre in Belfast. I have looked at the economic impact of all of those facilities — [Interruption.]

242. The Deputy Chairperson: Can we have a little bit of attention for our speaker?

243. Mr McDonagh: As an economist, I have always been interested in the economic impact of the arts — both direct and indirect — as well as the other benefits that arts generally bring to our lives; the economic impact should not be the main issue. I have discovered that studying the economic impact of the arts is a bit like the Holy Grail or ‘The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy’ — people always seem to be on an eternal quest for the answer. Sometimes, the journey in getting to the answer is as interesting as the answer itself. The title of the study, ValCAL, always reminds me of Valhalla, the hall of the slain — studies of the economic impact of the arts have left a few bodies along the way.

244. I realise that members have seen the full study, and the Committee researcher has provided you with a good summary. I will not go over that in any detail. However, I will pick out some key points and, briefly, explain what the study was, what it concluded, why we did not proceed to phase 2, and what we can learn from the experience of doing the study.

245. It is important to recognise that we did the original study at the time of the 2007 comprehensive spending review. The brief that we got from DCAL at that time was concerned with trying to understand, from the Department’s point of view, the most effective way to spend the resources at its disposal. Should it be putting more money into arts and less into sports, more money into libraries and less into museums? What would give the Department the best bang for its buck?

246. At the time, there was a real awareness that DCAL competes with other Departments for resources. Those other Departments perhaps find it easier to demonstrate economic impacts — for example, the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Investment or Employment and Learning can easily pull together direct estimates of the economic impact of their activitiese. In the area that DCAL works in, it is much harder to do that. Some of the proposals stemmed from a desire to compete on a level playing field.

247. As the Committee researcher said, the study covered the four main areas of spending within the Department: sports, arts, museums and libraries. I will focus on the arts element, as that is the subject of your inquiry. The study was trying to see if there is a model that can demonstrate impact. For example, if the Department puts £X million into a particular project or programme, what jobs, employment and income — what economic measurables — will that produce?

248. Some people in the arts sector are horrified by that. Naturally, they do not like to see the arts reduced to some sort of economic measurement. Increasingly, however, there are others in the sector who realise that resources are scarce and that the sector is very dependent on public finance. The sector has to demonstrate what it is doing. In the United States, it is recognised that the arts are an economic activity, not just by the public sector and councils, but by the private sector, where a lot of sponsorship goes into the arts.

249. Most of the work on the ValCAL study was done in 2006 and 2007, so it is now two or three years old. We tried to categorise the impacts according to their different natures. The arts have an economic development impact through direct employment and income. Earlier, members talked about the spend that is associated with people going out for a night to an arts event, or a community arts festival that brings people together, as a result of which people spend more money in the shops.

250. There is a tourism impact. The arts have the potential to attract visitors to the area, and there is strong evidence that tourists come to Northern Ireland to visit its arts venues and festivals. There is an education impact. The arts contribute to the education sector and therefore, in relation to public spending, save the public purse by adding to the quality of the education system.

251. There is a health impact as well. Some of the capital projects in Northern Ireland that DCAL and the Arts Council have funded — the Millennium Forum, the Burnavon Arts Centre, the Island Arts Centre in Lisburn, and, hopefully, the Lyric and the new Metropolitan Arts Centre in Belfast — have the potential to contribute to physical regeneration.

252. The final area of impact is social inclusion and community cohesion, including, potentially, a reduction in crime.

253. The Deputy Chairperson: Perhaps you could bring your remarks to a close.

254. Mr McDonagh: I will not dwell on every detail of the submission. The Committee has heard already why the study did not proceed to phase 2. A concrete example of measuring the economic benefits of a project can be seen through the work carried out for the new Metropolitan Arts Centre in the Cathedral Quarter in Belfast. We worked on a business case for that, and the main economic benefits that we identified were threefold: the first was the potential employment that the facility created; secondly, the tourism spend generated by having another good arts facility in Belfast, which would encourage more visitors to spend more time and use the facilities and the area around the Cathedral Quarter; and, thirdly, there was the physical regeneration and what it does in levering private-sector investment into the area. Those were the three factors that were put to the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) to fund the project.

255. It is all very well putting those into business cases and economic appraisals. However, it is more important to monitor the situation to see whether that arts centre is delivering the benefits that were promised as regards spend, physical regeneration, and so on. That is what is known in the Department as “post-project evaluation". That is a much more immediate, positive and constructive task, as opposed to trying to develop a model that will encompass all that in one simple formula.

256. The Deputy Chairperson: Do you, or any of your colleagues, wish to add anything before members ask questions?

257. Dr Michael Willis (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): For clarification, the Department will not be making a separate presentation. Mr McDonagh’s presentation is the sole presentation.

258. The Deputy Chairperson: We understand that. I was giving you the opportunity to chip in.

259. Mr P Ramsey: During the period when there was a huge campaign from the arts sector for capital spend, particularly at the beginning of the comprehensive spending review, the Committee championed that cause and it thought it was appropriate to conduct an inquiry into the underfunding of the arts. I raised with the researcher the fact that the Department was looking at four distinctly different areas and that that looked to be unwieldy, as there was no commonality between those areas. The language was based on the economic drivers involved. I take the Chairperson’s point; we are all talking about the economy and its importance. However, we are also talking about cultural poverty, targeting social need, social regeneration and the impacts that that will have on communities. The Committee does not want to waste any time over the next few months —

260. The Deputy Chairperson: So, you are going to come to a question very quickly.

261. Mr P Ramsey: I am trying to.

262. The Committee does not want to waste any time obtaining the qualitative evidence that is necessary to go forward with the rationale as to why there should be more investment in the arts. What lessons have you learned — not just an economist, but as someone who is a champion of the arts — and what steer could you give us to proceed? If another study was to commence, would it be better to base it solely on the arts, rather than including libraries and sport in it?

263. Mr McDonagh: That is a good question. We discovered that there is not a lot of information available about some of the economic impacts that would allow us to build a model. We need to collect some of the information from existing projects. Therefore, when the Arts Council or DCAL fund a programme or project, its organisers should be required to collect certain information. Such information might include the number of people who attended the events; how much they spent; whether they were visitors from outside Northern Ireland; what else they did when they attended the event; whether they went for a drink or a meal before or after the event; and whether they came especially to the venue or whether it was part of an existing visit. That information could be collected from existing events, organisations and programmes, and, with encouragement, they ought to be able to do so.

264. Ms Tohill: A series of evaluations have been undertaken. For example, through the creative industries innovation fund, we have recognised the necessity to collect data in order to ensure that it is possible to conduct a meaningful evaluation at the end. We are establishing an evaluation panel and have identified some indicators that we hope to collect later, such as turnover and employment. It is not always easy to obtain that information, because we rely on small organisations to supply it. Some of those organisations might not experience an employment impact, but the Department and the Arts Council carry out regular evaluations of their programmes to ensure that they are quantitative and qualitative in nature.

265. Mr P Ramsey: There are a number of areas in which it is difficult to obtain qualitative evidence. For example, it is easier to obtain qualitative facts on sport than on health-related matters. One could argue that there is qualitative evidence in the arts, and hospitals that display art, for example, could detail the effect that such displays have on stimulating patients. Are there models outside Northern Ireland of countries that know how to effectively invest in the arts and secure beneficial outcomes?

266. Mr McDonagh: There is much evidence and other good models — the Republic of Ireland was mentioned earlier. That country did not wait to measure the impact. A number of years ago, it had a gut feeling that it was a good idea to invest in that sector and to provide the tax breaks for the artists. That was done almost without any available evidence, but there is evidence in other places. For example, there have been studies in various places on the financial benefits to the Health Service of investing in arts and health. Good data on that matter could be applied here.

267. Ms Michelle Scott (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): When the Department takes an investment decision on, for example, an economic appraisal, it is not necessary to quantify or monetise a benefit in order to acknowledge it. It can be sufficient to highlight a non-monetary benefit and evidence that an initiative will impact on health and crime outcomes. It is dangerous to discard benefits simply because they cannot be quantified or monetised.

268. The Deputy Chairperson: Philip, you said that some people — you did not name them, which is a relief — in the arts circle were horrified to be financially scrutinised. Is that evidence of a culture in the arts circle where some people think that they know better and, instead of asking the public what it wants, they tell the public what it should have?

269. Mr McDonagh: That is a good question. Artists, perhaps, feel that the integrity of their work should not be challenged. It is not so much that they —

270. The Deputy Chairperson: Does that culture exist among those who are privileged enough to distribute the funding provided by the Department?

271. Mr McDonagh: No; I meant that some artists do not like the thought of being judged on the number of seats that they sell in a theatre, the amount of money that they spend and the number of staff that they employ. They do not like their work to be reduced to economic factors. There are fewer people with that opinion than there has been for a long time.

272. Mr Shannon: Thank you for your presentation. In the past, the arts has perhaps, been a minority interest, and artists have — as they should be — been encouraged to express themselves. However, someone has to pay for that. Philip has given us a reality check this morning about the economy and how we spend money on the arts. You made the point that if events that we promote can produce a return, those returns can be used to promote the arts more widely.

273. I want to ask a question about tourism. Our background papers state that the Smithsonian Festival would lead to a 10% increase in US visitors. How did the study arrive at that conclusion? If the Smithsonian Festival can achieve that size of an increase, should we not be putting on more Smithsonian Festivals? How many can we put on, where is the target audience, and can we make that happen?

274. My second question is about social inclusion. The ValCAL study concluded that as a result of spending on the arts, 47% of the adult population participated in an arts event, which is excellent. The study also concluded that there were high levels of participation by persons with a disability. It is on record that, per capita, Northern Ireland has the highest number of people with a disability in the United Kingdom. Is it possible to increase the involvement in the arts of people with a disability in Northern Ireland? When we have events, we must ensure that everyone has access to them.

275. Mr McDonagh: The ValCAL study was carried out before the Smithsonian Festival took place; we looked at some estimates that had been made of the impact that it should have had in increasing bed nights. It will be interesting to look back and see whether it did, indeed, have an impact. It is all very well to speculate that it might have created a number of extra visitors to Northern Ireland, but did it, or did it deliver more? That would provide valuable evidence for doing more of that type of activity in the international arena.

276. Mr Shannon: Should the Smithsonian Festival be replicated in other parts of the United States or in Europe? The festival had a specific focus on the United States; in its own way, it was aimed at that market. Should we have more of those types of arts events? Are we going to try to make money and increase the interest that results from arts spending in those areas? Even without knowing the impact that the Smithsonian Festival had, you must have had some reason for anticipating that there would be a 10% increase in US visitors.

277. Mr McDonagh: Yes. It was an illustration of what such a festival can do. The Smithsonian Festival was a one-off in one way, but there are other similar festivals. The Venice Biennale is a good example of an international platform for the arts in Northern Ireland that can generate direct economic benefits.

278. Ms Scott: Selling Northern Ireland through those festivals is an excellent way of raising our profile, but, as has been said, we must concentrate on our tourism infrastructure in order to pull people into Northern Ireland. That is why we have been talking about investing in the arts infrastructure. In taking those investment decisions, we will look at the numbers of tourists that would be generated. Targets would be set for those numbers in the business cases for the investments and would then be evaluated. Activity is required at home as well.

279. Dr Willis: In answer to Mr Shannon’s second question, members will be aware of the Programme for Government’s public service agreement (PSA) targets that the Department has signed up to, which deal with increasing participation in, and attendance at, arts events. In a previous role, my colleagues and I worked with the Arts Council in order to come up with robust ways of measuring how that could be taken forward. I am certain that some of the Arts Council’s corporate documents will show that it has set itself targets for increasing participation and attendance among minority groups. Therefore, over time, both the Department and the Arts Council will want to see increases in the number of people who participate and attend.

280. Mr Shannon: Do you suggest that the Department sets bigger targets for attendance by disabled people? Should that happen or is it wrong to set such a target?

281. Dr Willis: I suggest, from a statistical perspective, that a baseline of where we are at present should be established. On that basis, projections can be made that can be used to come up with a series of targets. I do not want to bore you, members; however, the issue is always to ensure that the survey instruments — the tools — that are used to provide measures are robust. We are working with the Arts Council to get to that stage. We are pretty well there. When the baseline is established, you are in a position to ask what targets you want to set on the basis of that measure. Therefore, it is technically possible.

282. The Deputy Chairperson: Raymond is the last questioner from whom I have received an indication. Dominic has now indicated as well. Before I call Ken to ask a question on the subject, I remind members that a briefing document has also been supplied for us; members might want to consider looking at that in case there are any more questions.

283. Mr K Robinson: My question is on the tail of that which Jim has just asked. The cruise ships that come to Belfast now form an increasing sector of Northern Ireland’s tourist market. Is there an arts input into that programme before ships arrive in Belfast? Has that side of the market been looked at? Can the individual spend of passengers on those cruise ships be quantified? Can their use of local accommodation be ticked off? How are they accounted for? What figures are compiled of the money that they generate and their use of accommodation? If they stay on board, are they included in overall tourist-accommodation figures? Is an arts-related; historically related; culturally related; sports-related programme provided for them before they arrive in Belfast?

284. Ms Tohill: I will respond with regard to the Arts Council. For the Arts Council to provide funding towards an activity, it must have an artistic element. It depends on what extent or element of the programme is artistic in nature. I am not aware of any funding that has been provided by the Arts Council, although I will check that out and get back to you.

285. As regards impact, I imagine that the Tourist Board has been heavily involved and would have had complied figures and indicators of what the impact might be. It is, therefore, for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment to provide them.

286. Mr K Robinson: Therefore, there is a cross-departmental element.

287. The Deputy Chairperson: I shall issue a direction to have that matter followed up.

288. Mr McCartney: My question relates to Michelle’s point about non-monetary benefit with regard to the economic appraisal. Is that weighted or is a subjective view taken? How is a project weighed up and a judgement made about its non-monetary benefit when, after an economic appraisal, it does not stack up with regard to funding? Is a subjective or objective view taken?

289. Ms Scott: The assessment of non-monetary benefit is part of the value-for-money consideration. Therefore, it is part of the economic assessment. It would identify a range of non-monetary benefits that you anticipate that a programme will deliver, which will be weighted according to their importance. Those weights will be constructed through liaison and consultation with, for example, project promoters and the target audience, whether it is for a service or a capital programme. Certainly, that non-monetary assessment will be taken into account in any decision.

290. For example, a Department such as DCAL, where many of the benefits that it generates are non-monetary, the majority of our projects — I will try not to be too technical — will deliver what is known as “negative net present value". We will then look at the negative net present value and weigh it up against those benefits on which we have not been able, or it is not possible, to place a value, and take an overall decision. Certainly, however, it is not the case that a project fails because the monetised benefits are not sufficient to compensate for the cost. As a Department, many of our projects are in the category that relies on non-monetary benefits.

291. Mr D Bradley: I see from one of the written submissions to the Committee that DCAL did a study in 2002-03, which involved research into community arts. However, apparently the results of that research were never published. Can you give us any further information on that?

292. Ms Tohill: I am not aware of that.

293. Dr Willis: That research pre-dates my time in the Department. I am not aware of it, but if the Committee wants, I can go back and establish the origins of that work and provide the Committee with that research.

294. Mr D Bradley: That would be helpful, thank you.

295. The Deputy Chairperson: Yes; I request that on behalf of the Committee.

296. Mr McCausland: The study mentions that the piece of work was stopped by the project board at a certain point — who was on the project board?

297. Dr Willis: The project board was chaired by the deputy secretary of the Department, Edgar Jardine. All the heads of division in DCAL sat on the board and I, as head of research and statistics, and Michelle, as head of the economic service unit, sat on it in an advisory capacity. The heads of the appropriate branches in the Department were also involved through their heads of division.

298. Mr McCausland: I apologise that I left the meeting for a short while, so you may have answered this question already, but will you tell me what the precise reasons were that led the project group to not to proceed with phase 2?

299. Dr Willis: The reasons have been covered previously; however, I will give you a brief overview. Essentially, there were a number of reasons. First, it was felt from the evidence that was presented in the phase 1 report that there was not sufficiently robust data to allow us to go forward and produce an economic model that we could stand over. There were also issues about the number of assumptions that were built into the model — it was arguable whether we could have spent the money to develop and populate the model and still have been in a situation in which people would have disputed its findings.

300. Related to that was a value-for-money argument, which was that to get to the stage of having further developed the model, the Department would have had to spend somewhere in the region of £61,000 or £62,000. A combination of all those factors led to the decision not to proceed with phase 2.

301. Mr McCausland: Is it possible to get a list of all the pieces of research and major studies that have been done over the last six, seven, or eight years? People could then request a particular study if they wanted it, such as research on Unlocking Creativity and other such strategies. A lot of work obviously went into producing such research.

302. The Deputy Chairperson: Perhaps that could be put another way. If it is possible to facilitate what Mr McCausland has asked for — and one would hope that it would be — would you be happy, Nelson, that those studies were initially made available to you and then, based on that information, you could advise the Committee until we see what is available?

303. Dr Willis: I do not think that there would be a problem with that. The report has quite an extensive bibliography — we will look at that again and make sure that we can supply the different pieces of research to you.

304. Mr McCausland: Am I correct in thinking that there was then a process of implementation, involving working groups being set up?

305. Dr Willis: What you might be referring to is the expert panels that were set up at the start of the project to assign the various types of benefits and so on that could be derived.

306. Mr McDonagh: Yes; about four expert panels were set up.

307. Mr McCausland: Is that in relation to the ValCAL project? I meant implementation groups that were set up in relation to the Unlocking Creativity strategy.

308. Dr Willis: I was not personally involved in that project; however, if you wish, I can get further information on that.

309. Mr McCausland: Yes; that would be useful.

310. Ms Tohill: An interdepartmental creativity group was established in relation to Unlocking Creativity. That group still meets a few times a year. As well as that, a working group on the creative industries was set up to take forward development of the strategic action plan for the creative industries, and that group normally meets quarterly.

311. At the next meeting, for example, we will consider the EU year of creativity and innovation, identify a number of events and look at how the creative industries fund is being rolled out. The groups still exist, but Unlocking Creativity is no longer the relevant strategy; the interim strategic action plan is the review document for the creative industries.

312. Mr McCausland: Did the ValCAL study give any consideration to potential markets for the arts that have not been properly developed or of communities that have not had much experience or participation in the arts?

313. Mr McDonagh: One of the areas of impact that we identified was given the general heading of social inclusion. We examined whether there was evidence to indicate that arts activity contributed to improving social inclusion. We also introduced new people to the arts experience through community arts festivals and other community arts support.

314. Mr McCausland: Was any work done to identify the communities that have a low level of engagement with the Arts Council and the arts generally?

315. Mr McDonagh: No; that was not part of the brief.

316. The Deputy Chairperson: A written submission that was provided for the Committee inquiry states that DCAL carried out research on community arts in 2002-03, but that the results were never published. Can you provide some information on that?

317. Mr D Bradley: That is the question that I just asked.

318. Dr Willis: Dominic referred to that report, and none of us were involved at that time. However, I will go back to the Department, find out about that report and supply it to the Committee.

319. Mr D Bradley: I suggest that the information that Nelson has requested should be given to the Committee staff and/or the Research Services. It is hardly fair to ask one member to sift through all that information.

320. The Deputy Chairperson: You are absolutely right, and that is how I envisage the process operating. It is for Nelson to look at the information, and then any other member who wishes can read it.

321. Mr D Bradley: It would be useful if the information was channelled through the Committee staff.

322. The Deputy Chairperson: Yes; I think that that is how the information will be handled.

323. Mr D Bradley: I just wanted to clarify that.

324. The Deputy Chairperson: That is all right.

325. The Committee Clerk: I wish to clarify what is being requested. Is the request for the Department to provide all the policy documents on the arts that it has produced in the past six to eight years?

326. Mr McCausland: Yes; and even stuff that has emerged from the Arts Council on major policy documents would be useful.

327. Mr P Ramsey: That would be appropriate to our inquiry.

328. The Deputy Chairperson: I thank Anne, Michelle, Philip and Michael for the presentation and for the factual and helpful way in which you have answered our questions. We might see you again.

12 March 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Raymond McCartney (Acting Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

329. The Acting Chairperson (Mr McCartney): I refer members to the Research and Library Service’s paper ‘Per Capita Spend on the Arts in the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland’. The paper provides information in respect of point 1 of the terms of reference of the Committee’s inquiry into the funding of the arts in Northern Ireland which is: “To compare the per capita spend on the arts in Northern Ireland with that of other Europe countries/regions, and to establish the rationale which other countries/regions have used in order to increase their spend on the arts."

330. I invite Meadhbh McCann from the Research and Library Service to brief members, and I will then invite members to ask questions.

331. Ms Meadhbh McCann (Research and Library Services): The presentation provides information in relation to the per capita spend on the arts in the regions of the United Kingdom, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the Republic of Ireland. The paper on the per capita spend on the arts in the UK and the Republic of Ireland is part of a larger piece of research covering arts funding in Europe, which is forthcoming.

332. With respect to the United Kingdom’s financing of culture, the public expenditure statistical analyses (PESA) 2007 — produced by the UK HM Treasury — completed the regional distribution figures in January and February 2007. The statistics included by the PESA included current and capital spending by the Department and its non-departmental public bodies’ and public corporations’ capital expenditure. The statistics do not include capital finance to public corporations, payments to local authorities or local authorities’ own expenditure. The data are based on identified expenditure on services that are also capable of being analysed for the benefit of individual countries and regions.

333. The PESA found that, in 2006-07, the per capita spend on the arts by Government via Arts Councils was as follows: the Arts Council of England spent £8·19; the Scottish Arts Council spent £11·93; the Arts Council of Wales spent £8·80; and the Arts Council of Northern Ireland spent £6·13.

334. The Arts Council of Northern Ireland states that the per capita spend on the arts in Northern Ireland is the lowest across the UK and the Republic of Ireland. The following are the statistics for arts per capita spend in the UK and the Republic of Ireland for 2008-09: £14·04 in Scotland; £10·10 in Wales; £8·47 in England; €17·92 in the Republic of Ireland; and £7·58 in Northern Ireland.

335. The Arts Council of England published a report entitled ‘International Data on Government Spending on the Arts’. The report analysed the direct public arts spending in the following 10 Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries: Australia, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Netherlands, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States of America. That report states that comparing public arts spending across countries is a complicated task, partly because various countries have a variety of methods of defining and accounting for arts expenditure. The report highlights that a high economic output does not necessarily correlate with high public spend on the arts.

336. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure does not have a commonly accepted indicator of the per capita spend on the arts in Northern Ireland. It is not aware of any benchmark data available for public expenditure in the arts that is sufficiently robust to be comparable with other jurisdictions. The Department states that further analytical work is required and should be based on statistics that are either collected or quality- assured by the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA).

337. The Acting Chairperson: I notice that some fruit has been brought to Mr Shannon and Mr Ramsey; I am not sure whether that is an experiment in healthy eating or in making sure that people do not speak for long. We will work that out at the end.

338. Mr Shannon: Just to clarify, Pat and I are both diabetic, and that is the reason why we look for our pears and apples in the morning. I mentioned that to a member of the Committee staff, who very kindly bent the ear of someone out there; it is not that we are getting special treatment.

339. Mr Brolly: I was thinking that the intelligence is very good here. [Laughter.]

340. The Acting Chairperson: I thank Meadhbh for her presentation. Do members have any questions?

341. Mr Shannon: Ken, do you want some fruit? [Laughter.]

342. Mr Brolly: I am interested to know how the overall spend on the arts is divided between professional and amateur bodies. I do not to like to use the word “voluntary" because, unfortunately, if anyone volunteers, they are accepting that they are not going to get any help from the Arts Council, which will simply tell them to go ahead, as it can spend the money on other people.

343. Ms M McCann: The per capita spend figure has been worked out for the sector as a whole, so it is a breakdown of what is being spent by the Department. I think that that figure will cover both professional and amateur bodies but I am not certain — I can find out whether that is the case.

344. Mr Brolly: I appreciate that you would not have that information with you.

345. Ms M McCann: My initial reaction is that it covers both sectors, but I will check that and come back to you.

346. Mr Brolly: I am interested to know the proportion of money that is spent on the different types of bodies.

347. Mr P Ramsey: Francie’s latter point about voluntary contributions is significant. How can the level of voluntary contributions in communities — in relation to small arts groups and musical societies, for example — be benchmarked and compared with that in other regions? In relation to per capita spend, is the figure of approximately £7·50 per capita in Northern Ireland, for example, inclusive of spend by local government, the Department for Social Development and the Department of Education?

348. The Arts Council distributes whatever it distributes of that £6·13 per capita, so does that other £1·50 per capita come from a range of other sources?

349. Ms M McCann: The £6·13 per capita is the UK Treasury figure for the previous year, 2006-07. The figure for Northern Ireland that the Arts Council has supplied for the current year, 2008-09, is £7·58 per capita, and that includes amounts that have been ring-fenced for the creative industries initiative fund, Arts and Business Northern Ireland, the Ulster Bank Belfast Festival at Queen’s and the Royal Society of Ulster Architects. It encompasses all of those funding streams, and the money is ring-fenced for 2008-09.

350. Mr P Ramsey: I am still not sure of the numbers that are coming directly from DCAL, but we are aware of funding streams from the Department of Education and local government, and from DSD for urban regeneration. I am not clear whether that is a definitive figure. Is the per capita spend in England inclusive? In England, local government has greater devolved powers, so separate allocations are made to the arts. Can figures be provided on that?

351. Ms M McCann: I can try to get a greater breakdown of the figure, but issues that have been raised about the per capita spend go back to issues of clarity and whether the indicator itself is robust enough in trying to find commonality with the different jurisdictions and how that is broken down. Each jurisdiction picks the economic rationale methodology to get its per capita spend out at the end, and that might be different for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is where the difficulty lies in using that comparative indicator as a comparable function.

352. Perhaps using a figure such as gross domestic product (GDP) would have more statistical robustness because it would allow consideration of the wealth of a country divided by the amount that is spent on arts, rather than using a per capita figure. I shall find out whether such a breakdown of figures exists.

353. Mr K Robinson: The figure that is spent on the arts in the Republic of Ireland appears to be extremely generous. Is that because tax regimes there are geared to bring film industries forward and to encourage writers? The figure appears to be extremely generous, and, historically, the Republic of Ireland has had a greater input into the arts than we have had. Are there other factors at play that distort that figure?

354. Ms M McCann: The Republic of Ireland has put much effort and emphasis into attracting sponsorship and donations from the business sector, so that work may be reflected in that figure. In its economic breakdown, the Republic of Ireland may be including donations and not ring-fencing those. That could make the figure higher than perhaps it is in reality. A couple of countries include donations from outside, and that is included in their breakdown. That boosts their figure, but the Government spend is not that, so it should be lower when compared with other countries, and, because it has been factored in, it does not give a true reading.

355. Mr K Robinson: That adds to Pat’s point that local government puts a significant sum into the arts here. Has that been factored into our figure, or is that being looked at separately? For example, Newtownabbey Borough Council, of which I am a member, has a multi-million pound theatre development going on. Is such spending factored into the figures?

356. Ms M McCann: Spending by local authorities is not included in the UK PESA figure.

357. Mr Shannon: I wish to back up Pat’s point that the contributions that local councils make are significant, not only through the money that they spend each year but through the money that they have in their buildings. Do the figures on local council spending take account of those running costs?

358. I always felt, in all honesty, and not being disrespectful to the Arts Council, that our figures were quite low. I am not sure whether they are accurate either. I believe that our contribution to the arts is significant. It is nowhere near the level of the contribution that is made in the Republic of Ireland, nor does it match that of Scotland; nonetheless, when it is quantified, it will be more significant than it is perceived to be.

359. My other concern is that it is difficult, while we are conducting an inquiry into arts funding, to consider extra funding above and beyond what is already being provided. In all honesty, people are more concerned about jobs, health and education at the moment. We can all say what our priorities should be, but, in the current situation, it may not be the best time to recommend extra spending on the arts. I do not wish to take away from the importance of the arts; there is always a need to prioritise.

360. You have given us all the figures, but I believe that the contribution of local councils is significant. I know that the arts committee of Ards Borough Council, on which Kieran and I sit, is very active, and pursues a wide range of projects. Cultural pursuits come under the banner of community relations; it is not just about the arts. The good relations officers, as they are now known, play their part through their work for local councils, and that must be taken into consideration. Spending on the arts might rise dramatically. I suspect that our spending would be ahead of England’s, and might be equal to the contribution that is made in Wales.

361. Ms M McCann: That ties in with what the Department said about the per capita spending indicator. It might not be the best mechanism for determining spending, because it does not highlight that input. If more statistical research were carried out, a more appropriate way of calculating spending could be discovered that has that robustness and could show all the different elements that feed into a figure. That would be better than excluding many other elements, because they cannot be included if a per capita spend indicator is insisted on in order to show arts funding. From what I have read, that is what the Department is saying. These figures are not the best available, because they do not show the true picture.

362. Mr Shannon: Is the issue of language — Irish or Ulster Scots — under consideration? That is part of our culture, and should be included under the arts heading. Is that being taken on board?

363. Ms M McCann: The figures are based on the amount of Government funding that is issued. Language will be part of the package that emerges.

364. Mr Shannon: Has that been considered under the per capita indicator up until now?

365. Ms M McCann: I will have to check on that, but I do not believe that it is excluded. The money comes directly from Government, so it should be included in the figure. I will check whether that money has been ring-fenced and come back to you about it.

366. Mr Shannon: It would be helpful if we had an indication of what has been ring-fenced. That would give us a better feel for how the figure was arrived at.

367. Mr Brolly: I want to follow Ken’s point. These figures are not much use to us because the Arts Council of England report did not include quite significant sums of money, particularly tax foregone across the border. It would be interesting if it was possible to get a round figure on what contribution that makes to arts funding. I am sure that it is huge; it has to be. We have no tax-varying powers, but if we could create something similar here, it could augment what are, in reality, poor figures.

368. Mr K Robinson: Building on what Francie said, the current trade mission to America is actively pursuing the issue of arts funding by talking to the film industry. Therefore, perhaps that is something that we should look at more seriously.

369. Mr Brolly: The boom in the film industry across the border was down to tax relief.

370. Mr P Ramsey: I respect and understand in general Jim’s point that now is not a good time to have an inquiry into arts funding. However, the whole principle of having an inquiry is based on the fact that we do not know how the arts can contribute to, and pay dividends for, people’s health and well-being. We also do not know how the arts contribute to social and urban regeneration, to targeting social need, to the economy — particularly when one considers the number of jobs that the creative industries create — and to all the other ailments of society. Therefore, an unknown quantity exists.

371. I think that now is a good time for an inquiry. With respect, Jim, I go against what you said. I think that now is a good time to get the evidence that is required and evaluate that. The same argument can be used for sport, which is what we will look at next. A lot of evidence suggests that the long-term advantage of investing in sports is that less money will need to be is spent on health services. We need to evaluate that as part of the inquiry.

372. Mr Shannon: For clarification, I did not say that we should not have an inquiry. I simply pointed out that a lot of people do not equate the money that it is invested in the arts with the benefits that they can bring. We are all elected representatives — what is the biggest issue that constituents raise? People are concerned about their jobs, among other issues. That is my point; that is all that I am saying. I am not saying that we should not have an inquiry. We will have an inquiry, and we will see how we can promote the arts more positively and significantly.

373. Mr Brolly: Interestingly, I had conversation with Malcolm Murchison, manager of Flowerfield Arts Centre, before this Committee meeting started, and he made that very point. He said that the arts contribute to people’s health as much — if not more, in some cases — as hospitals.

374. The Acting Chairperson: Before we finish, Meadhbh, when you undertook your research into arts funding, was there any sort of regional examination of per capita spend? For example, was more spent on arts funding per capita in London than in other parts of England? Was there a heavy concentration of spend in and around certain areas in the South?

375. Ms M McCann: Figures in the public expenditure statistical analysis, which was carried out in 2007, included a bare breakdown of per capita spend for the UK. That showed a higher concentration of per capita spend in more urban areas. I have not found such a breakdown for the Republic of Ireland. I can provide you with a copy of the figures for England.

376. Mr Shannon: There was some concern a while ago about the fact that £1·5 million had been spent on art for the Royal Victoria Hospital. One woman who had an operation at the hospital told me that when she was in the operating theatre, she did not care whether there was an abstract painting or a landscape painting on the wall; she simply wanted her operation to be over. She said that it did not make any difference to her. That is my point.

377. Sometimes, we need to be sure that what is happening is for the benefit of the people. That woman was more interested in getting her operation over with and getting out of hospital. She did care whether there was a lovely landscape painting or an abstract picture on the wall. She was not interested; she simply wanted to get out of there.

378. The Acting Chairperson: It is good that she knew the difference between an abstract picture and a landscape picture. [Laughter.]

379. Mr Shannon: It is easy to tell the difference.

380. The Acting Chairperson: Meadhbh, thank you very much.

19 March 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr David Byers Mr Colm Crummey Mr Colin Stark

Ulster Orchestra

381. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome representatives of the Ulster Orchestra to this morning’s Committee session. This part of the meeting will last approximately 45 minutes. Mr David Byers will make a 10-minute presentation, in which he will introduce his colleagues, and that will be followed by members’ questions.

382. Mr David Byers (Ulster Orchestra): We are delighted to be given the chance to come here to make a short presentation to you. With me, I have Colin Stark, an oboe player of long standing with the Ulster Orchestra, and Colm Crummey, the orchestra’s finance and administration manager, who keeps me in order.

383. I must preface my remarks with a correction. Paragraph 2.9 of our submission states that Belfast City Council contributes £134,000 of grant aid to the Ulster Orchestra, but it gives us £143,000. I apologise for that error.

384. I hope that the submission is comprehensive enough for you, but I will flesh it out with one or two complementary facts. The Ulster Orchestra has one of the largest allocations of arts funding in Northern Ireland, but we believe that it offers a huge return on the investment on many fronts. It is a finely balanced economic equation: money in very much equals money out. If we put one foot wrong, we go over the precipice.

385. We are a small to medium-sized business in Northern Ireland terms. We have 80 full-time employees, 63 of whom are musicians.

386. I will provide a brief summary of our work. During the season, we play around 33 concerts — including family concerts — in Belfast. This year, we will also play a joint concert with the Ulster Youth Orchestra. We play 12 free BBC invitation concerts — sometimes those are held in Belfast, and sometimes they are held in Derry or Armagh. They have moved out and about in recent times, but they may once again be forced back to Belfast because of economics. Those concerts are free, so they can be accessed by a wide range of the community.

387. We also play 15 of our concerts in the regions, in places such as Derry, Coleraine, Armagh and Enniskillen, and as part of the Opera Fringe festival in Downpatrick, to name but a few. Last year, we undertook a Christmas tour, which included Christmas concerts in the Andersonstown Leisure Centre and the Shankill Leisure Centre. In addition to those concerts, we gave 30 studio-recorded concerts for BBC Radio 3. Those concerts very much bring Northern Ireland’s orchestra to listeners right across the UK, and, thanks to Internet streaming, far beyond. We appear at the BBC Proms every so many years. We have established a Dublin season of concerts each year. We appeared at the Wexford and Kilkenny festivals, and we performed a border- area tour last year that was supported by the Arts Council of Ireland. We played in Letterkenny, Dundalk and Castleblayney.

388. So much of our work is under the radar. There is an enormous breadth and depth of engagement in all that we do. Last Saturday, we held a concert in the Waterfront Hall as part of the Pied Piper project, and that concert was a culmination of weeks of workshops in four primary schools in mainly deprived areas of Belfast. That performance involved some 240 children singing on stage with the orchestra and 60 young dancers from knee-high upwards. They all performed a piece that was written by our young composer in residence, Brian Irvine. It was the most inspiring event to attend, and it was performed to an audience of about 1,600, many of whom were the parents of those involved. The whole project — which I hope will not be a one-off — was awarded the Inspire Mark of the Cultural Olympiad because of the range that it covered, its work with people and its inspirational qualities.

389. The week or so before that, we played a concert in the Waterfront Hall to some 1,500 to 1,600 young people, which was presented and planned in part by my colleague Colin Stark. That is an example of what we want to do in the longer term now that we hope to move into the Ulster Hall. Two nights ago, we performed a St Patrick’s Day concert in the Waterfront Hall. That was a cross-community concert that appealed to all sections.

390. There is a breadth to the work that encompasses many of our players going to special-needs schools. They have devised special systems whereby the children relate to objects on a screen, which encourages them to participate by playing particular notes or identifying particular themes. To hear and see that in action is a most humbling experience.

391. The instrumental players are in the community providing advanced tuition in schools, colleges and the universities. For example, Colin is involved with the orchestra at Queen’s University. Many of our players provide the backbone of teaching and youth-orchestra coaching in organisations such as the City of Belfast School of Music, the Ulster Youth Orchestra, St Malachy’s College, Methodist College Belfast, and all over the place in primary schools and nursery schools.

392. The players are also involved with education and library boards. Each year, we do something with the Southern Education and Library Board, which is very supportive of our work. In one week, we perform three or four concerts in places like Dungannon, Newry and Craigavon. Those are fabulous concerts. They are not just free-standing concerts; they are always backed up by workshops in the schools. In that way, kids can draw on all sorts of particular musical experiences and training that help them to appreciate the concerts all the more. Furthermore, many of our players are involved with bands and choirs in the community. One of our viola players conducts a flute band that has been world champion for the past three or four years — its name escapes me at the moment. Those players bring a measure of talent to bear upon the whole community.

393. Our core business is very much about providing concerts, primarily of orchestral music. That encompasses all kinds of music, including film nights, popular classics, music from Broadway and the West End musicals and concerts with James Galway and Bryn Terfel. If you name it, we will do it.

394. In the past year or two, we have performed with Flash Harry at the Odyssey Arena, Duke Special and Sinéad O’Connor, and we have also played with The Chieftains at the Waterfront Hall. Above all, we play symphonic classics. We introduce new music by young composers from here, and we provide a platform for young musicians at the start of their careers. We do that partly in co-operation with the Arts Council and the BBC.

395. The Ulster Orchestra is very much open to everyone — all ages and all creeds. It was heart-warming to discover that a PricewaterhouseCoopers survey from some years ago revealed that 33% of our season-ticket holders were, to use a horrible classification, C2DEs. Access is what we are about; we offer student standby tickets for all our concerts at a price of £3. We have special promotions and offers for people who live in residential homes. We have a sponsored bus scheme for elderly people from Ballymena and Armagh, which has really taken off this year and become a great success.

396. The events that we put on are non-confrontational; there is no sense of them being for one side of the community and not for the other. We believe with a passion that a modern, forward-looking society needs an orchestra. Not everyone wants to darken its doors, perhaps, but again, we were sufficiently heart-warmed by research that showed that a huge majority feels that Northern Ireland should have an orchestra that is seen to provide a real service to the community. That says something about that community to the outside world.

397. We are an important part of the creative industries, which, I have been told, employ more people in Northern Ireland than agriculture — that may say more about the state of agriculture at the moment than anything else. We want to, and do, fire up people’s creativity and imagination. We are about participation; I have mentioned several aspects of the orchestra’s work, but next month, for example, we have our annual ‘Come and Play’ concert, which brings in 90 to 100 people aged from seven years to 77-plus. They rehearse with the orchestra in the afternoon and take part in the concert later on. If anyone wants to come along, the event is free and takes place in the Ulster Hall. Again, it is heart-warming and inspirational — it is a wonderful event. Equally, participation is as much about people who simply want to come along, sit, watch, listen and just be part of things. It is about enjoyment, challenge, thought and wonder.

398. Some years ago, we won the first-ever Royal Philharmonic Society award for education work. Last year, we won the Arts & Business arts award for professionalism in managing our business relationships. We play a major ambassadorial role for Northern Ireland. Companies that are looking to invest here want to know what additional benefits exist for them, and we believe that the Ulster Orchestra is an important part of Northern Ireland’s offering. Tourists check the web for what is on here — nightlife, theatres, clubs and concerts such as ours.

399. The investment in arts funding sustains everything that I have mentioned. It sustains 80 jobs in the arts. Some years ago, that investment was shown to have been multiplied by a factor of 2·5 as regards economic return. I do not have a recent figure, because the research has not yet been done, but I believe that the way in which we have developed in recent years has increased that figure substantially.

400. The context of all our work in this part of the country is very important. We live in an environment in which our venues are the most expensive to hire in the UK and Ireland. We have the lowest orchestral salaries in the UK. Conductors, soloists and extra players cost more to bring in and out. We have a smaller population base than comparable orchestras, with the possible exception of Finland. We punch above our weight, and I believe that we provide excellent value for money. We have enjoyed huge success in increasing our box-office revenue, our sponsorship and philanthropic giving from individuals.

401. Sadly, the reality check is very much upon us now, in that we are not immune to the credit crunch. That fine balance — that precipice that I was talking about — is looking slightly crumbly at the moment.

402. Sponsorship has taken a nosedive this year. We have lost £150,000 because we are so reliant on the banks and financial institutions. Our bank interest, which we relied on to top us up, was earning us about £30,000 a year, but that has gone, as you can imagine. I am afraid that, next season, we will have to cut back on what we offer and, at the very least, implement a pay freeze from the beginning of the financial year until we work out where the economy is going. We need to do that to preserve our business for the future.

403. That is all I want to say at this stage — I apologise if I have talked for too long.

404. Mr McCarthy: Thank you very much for your presentation. Paragraph 1.5 of your submission refers to the uplift in arts funding provided by the Government in the South — it has increased from €33·14 million in 1998 to €79·81 in 2006, some €46 million of an increase in eight years. What would be the best way of persuading our Northern Ireland Executive to provide a similar uplift?

405. Mr Byers: A similar uplift would be wonderful. We need to hold up as an example what we do and what we achieve. At times, it is very hard to get people to come to events. Saturday’s event was mind-blowing and fabulous, but the task is to get people, including MLAs and councillors, to come out and experience such events and to realise their importance.

406. Mr McCarthy: The €46 million increase in funding by the Southern Government over eight years was huge, and we are nowhere near that.

407. Mr Byers: They took the basic step of saying that the arts would be important for the wider economy and for the wider sense of Ireland in the world, and that has paid off. Obviously, they are now pulling back a bit on aspects of the funding, but what they have achieved is fantastic. However, the Government funding and Arts Council funding in the South does not support an orchestra other than the Irish Chamber Orchestra, which is a small, chamber-sized ensemble. They are saved millions of euros because RTÉ supports its own orchestra.

408. Mr Brolly: At times, I have been critical of the money spent on the Ulster Orchestra, but that is nothing to do with the quality of the work that it does. I am sure that, like myself, you are disappointed that classical music has not really invaded the homes of the ordinary. That is also a criticism that I have of the Arts Council generally — it is not totally proactive.

409. A lot of the money that is spent on the orchestra, and that the orchestra spends, goes to the small elite. I am talking about all things classical: for example, if I go to Castleward for an opera, I will not see any of my neighbours. Although not strictly a criticism of the Ulster Orchestra, I am always disappointed that classical music and opera are still seen as the preserve of the few. If that perception is correct and is added to the fact that more money goes to the Ulster Orchestra than to any other organisation, it seems that the funding is a bit misaligned — the least people are getting the most money.

410. Mr Byers: I do not agree with that. We reach out to different audiences from across society. I worry about the word “elite", because it is being used in a pejorative way in this context. As I tried to convey in the submission, we aspire to being elite, because we want to achieve the best quality in the same way as a rugby team or another sports team does. Our young musicians want to be the best and to be trained in the best possible way. There is nothing wrong with that. However, the argument that the orchestra appeals to only a few rich people does not stand up to analysis.

411. Mr Brolly: Not necessarily rich people; I was trying to say that I am somewhat critical of what the Arts Council does. My accusation is that it hands out funding but has no hands-on involvement. I appreciate all the orchestra’s work in education, and so forth, but the ripples of that work do not yet spread far enough.

412. Mr Byers: That is an argument for having a bigger cake rather than simply divvying up the existing cake into smaller and smaller slices with the result that we cannot achieve all that we ought in society. I am not speaking as a representative of the Arts Council, but I assure you that it is not an easy shout to obtain funding. The Arts Council studies our programme, argues about some aspects of it and has quibbles with others, but it is supportive.

413. The money is not simply handed to us on a plate. We always need and want more funding, but so does everyone else. In general, the arts, historically, have always received support. Some years ago, the support came through patronage, which has been superseded by Government funding. Members should consider other countries in which Governments have invested in the arts. For example, in the South, the investment in the arts has produced substantial returns that extend to all areas, including traditional music.

414. Mr Brolly: Are you telling me that all that is required is more money? Should you not examine your strategy?

415. Mr Colm Crummey (Ulster Orchestra): You are right, Mr Brolly, to say that barriers must be broken down. Before I became the orchestra’s accountant, my background was in traditional music. However, the more that I am exposed to classical music, the more I love it. It is a matter of how to increase its exposure to more people.

416. Mr Brolly: That was basically my question.

417. Mr Byers: It would seem crude to say yes in answer to your previous question about whether we simply require more money. Strategically, we want to develop, and we hope to move our office to the Ulster Hall in June 2009. Had life here been normal, without the credit crunch, now would have been the time to grab opportunities. It is the perfect time to bus schoolchildren to the Ulster Hall to hear concerts by the orchestra in that environment. Our focus should be to introduce people to classical music at that young age.

418. People who live in the suburbs, or elderly people who no longer want to come into the cities at night but can travel free on buses, can come into the city for lunchtime concerts; now is the time to develop that. Although the orchestra is funded and we receive salaries, most concerts incur an additional cost. The only concerts from which we make money are the ‘Messiah’ and the Viennese concerts.

419. The sponsors are the people who make the difference. With sponsorship, we can achieve so much more, but all of a sudden that has gone. Will I be able to put on lunchtime concerts? The orchestra has one sponsor who is committed to lunchtime concerts for the next year, so they will go ahead.

420. However, we ought to be putting on schools concerts, as I would love to do, but I would have to pay for a conductor to allow the orchestra to play the sort of music that is attractive and appealing to that audience. The orchestra has 63 players, and that is the minimum number required to perform. However, to perform the music from ‘Star Wars’, for example, we would need additional trumpets and percussion because each piece of music incurs an extra cost.

421. There is no point in putting on a bit of Mozart or Haydn. Nowadays, orchestras have to shake people up with something more contemporary, but that costs more. Where can we get the money? Sponsorship is the direct answer, but there is none available. I would love the city and DCAL to invest in the orchestra, so that we could get on with performing. I am sorry to say that it comes down to the crude issue of money.

422. Mr Shannon: As you rightly said, Northern Ireland is blessed with, and enriched by, a variety of musical talent, such as the Field Marshal Montgomery Pipe Band, and the flute bands from Ballygowan and Ballywalter. I am sure that other members are also proud of the bands in their areas. The Ulster Orchestra does a magnificent job of promoting the Province, and it promotes Northern Ireland wherever it plays. Therefore, I understand the importance of the orchestra, and I do not need to be convinced of it.

423. I have a couple of questions. First, you mentioned the South Eastern Education and Library Board in your submission.

424. Mr Byers: I meant to say the Southern Education and Library Board.

425. Mr Shannon: You mentioned the importance of developing musical talent and of people going on to join the Ulster Orchestra. What relationship do you have with the boards as regards that issue?

426. Secondly, the per capita spend has been a key issue in the inquiry. At the moment, it seems that our per capita spend is lower than the per capita spend in other parts of the United Kingdom — although we are waiting for confirmation of that. In your submission, you suggested that the per capita measurement should not be the sole criterion for arts funding. Northern Ireland has a small population compared to Scotland, Wales and the Republic, so is it fair that a small country should have to pay more? I am keen to get your opinion on that. How could that be addressed differently and, at the same time, not be cost prohibitive?

427. Mr Byers: We have closer relationships with some boards than with others, and that is down to the particular boards and whether they have any flexibility with regard to money. I am returning to the issue of money again. We have a very good relationship with the Southern Board, and it works alongside councils in Newry, Dungannon, Craigavon and other places that we have recently visited. Those councils provide £1,000 per concert and the education and library board provides the same amount of money. Therefore, by working in partnership, we can stage those concerts. We put on two concerts a day, with around 1,000 kids at each concert. Therefore, it is a partnership.

428. We have good, close working relationships with the staff in the South Eastern Education and Library Board with regard to workshops and other things that we do. However, it is only the Southern Education and Library Board that is involved in the larger-scale school concerts. We have close contact with the staff in the Western Education and Library Board, the South Eastern Education and Library Board and the North Eastern Education and Library Board, and our workshops are held in schools right across Northern Ireland. They are not simply parachuted in. The work is delivered in consultation with those area boards, and we get advice from them.

429. Mr Shannon: Is there a natural progression for young pupils who show an interest in music to receive tuition from the education boards and then go on to join the Ulster Orchestra? Is there a methodology to enable that to happen?

430. Mr Byers: There is progression, but Northern Ireland does not have a third-level college of music, and, indeed, we are too small to sustain such a college. Therefore, a lot of our young pianists, for example, go to study with John O’Conor at the Royal Irish Academy of Music. Other people go to study at the Royal Scottish Academy, the Royal Welsh College of Music & Drama, the Guildhall School of Music & Drama in London or the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester. Quite often, those people get freelance jobs, so they do not necessarily all come back here. However, there is some progression to enable those people to climb the ladder. They are given tuition and join the youth orchestras in those area boards, and, if they are really keen, they may go to the National Youth Orchestra of Ireland. If they are really good at college, they can become freelance teachers, for example.

431. Mr Colin Stark (The Ulster Orchestra): We have players in the orchestra who have come through the system. I am one of those people, so it can happen. Indeed, during the worst of the Troubles, many of our most talented players went away to study and chose not to come back. However, it is very refreshing that several of our recently advertised posts have been filled by young people from here who have chosen to come back and play in the Ulster Orchestra.

432. Mr Shannon: What about the per capita spend?

433. Mr Byers: We have to find a way to supply adequate funding for the arts — indeed, more than adequate, if possible. The per capita issue gets so confused at times; are we really comparing like with like? I was trying to consider the matter on a European basis, and it is well nigh impossible. The BBC is one of our major supporters, and it is not in a particularly healthy state at the moment. We are engaged in an ongoing discussion with the BBC about our appearances at the Proms. Scotland gets two appearances, as does Wales, and we feel that appearances are, in a sense, part of the per capita commitment. We should have two appearances. A per capita argument is being used now to say, “Hang on, there are so many licence payers in Northern Ireland". So, now, there is only one every five or six years, which galls me slightly.

434. It is how the statistics are used that is somewhat bothersome. I am afraid that I have no answer to your question. When we look at per capita spending at face value, it is clear that we are so behind the Republic and Scotland. Scotland is surging ahead at the moment — just look at the expenditure figures for the five key cultural institutions. The progress there is phenomenal. If we had half of what that orchestra is getting at the moment, we could do so much more, but then I think that Scotland’s per capita spending is about £12 a head.

435. Mr P Ramsey: We have talked about levels of deprivation and poverty and also the culturally poor and cultural poverty. Can you explain how you would enrich the quality of life of someone who comes from a marginalised community or a TSN area? How would you get them involved and help them to gain access to your organisation? What are your strengths in that regard?

436. Jim was right; the Committee is trying to gather qualitative evidence to convince the Executive and our Ministers that there are good reasons to invest in the arts. Various channels were explored, and the ValCAL study was abandoned. That evidence is not available. Earlier, Francie mentioned that the great investment in the arts in Ireland had resulted in a huge return to the economy. Can you explain what the return is? Where is the evidence that there has been a return?

437. Mr Stark: I will give you an example of work in TSN areas. At the moment, I am working with kids in a primary school in Poleglass and one in Rathcoole — they have sort of adopted me. Those kids are not musicians, they are just part of a class group. I talk to them about the orchestra, play my instrument and we listen to music and play some games.

438. The kids then come to an informal concert, and I meet them there. Afterwards, we talk about the concert, and I show them around. I then go back to the school and prepare them for coming to a full-on, serious evening classical concert. They come to that concert and meet my colleagues, and I pop round to see them at the break. Once again, I go back to the school, and we talk about their experience. I ask the kids whether they found the concert boring or whether they enjoyed it. We ask them what they would like by way of follow up. I do little instrumental performance classes with the musicians, and some of the parents and other teachers get involved.

439. In a sense, it is a microcosm of a complete musical experience. We keep in touch with that school and go back to visit it. We will follow the children’s progress, perhaps into post-primary education. Those children are then familiar with the Ulster Orchestra; they see that the orchestra is not on a different planet and that it is an ordinary group. The children come to see the orchestra and have a bit of craic.

440. That is how we follow through on progress. At best, that experience develops our young artists; at the very least, it develops an audience for classical music in the Province. Such work is taking place on a very large scale with several of my colleagues all the time. I take Mr Brolly’s point that there is still not enough access. However, it is not for want of trying; it is a matter of resource. As Mr Byers said, a lot of what we do is under the radar because we cannot shout about everything all the time.

441. Mr P Ramsey: I take that point, and the work is fantastic. However, how do you measure it? You have worked with young people who may not have had access to music or played an instrument, but how will the outcome of that work be measured in the future? How will you know that, as a direct result of your actions, people are going back to their own communities and joining bands and participating in music, and so on?

442. Where is the evidence to show that that is happening? How do you ensure that the work that you do in a school one week is not forgotten the next week?

443. Mr Stark: I can only offer anecdotal evidence. We do not have the resource to follow that up in a scientific way. It would be wonderful to take a large sample of pupils and follow them from Key Stage 1, through to the end of their education and into their working lives in order to see how many people stay with us. The only evidence that I can offer you is the change in the kids’ attitudes from when I first go in — when I may as well be from Mars — to when they go to concerts —

444. Mr P Ramsey: You are the Pied Piper.

445. Mr Stark: We work through a project, and that results in the children having a completely different attitude. I have been doing that for a long time, and teenagers and young adults come up to me and remind me that I visited their school. They tell me that they are going to Ulster Orchestra concerts or that they have encouraged someone else to do so. It is not only for the ABC1s.

446. Mr Byers: The research is good in the sense in that it shows that a large percentage of our current audience has reached the orchestra through having met it as schoolchildren. It is a matter of getting people when they are young and bringing them into it. The evidence is there, but resources are needed to follow it through.

447. Mr P Ramsey: You talked about money and why that is so important. What added value would you bring to the table if you were to get extra public money?

448. Mr Byers: We would expand our reach to people of all ages.

449. Mr Crummey: More money would result in more exposure. As with anything, the more exposure something gets, the more people will begin to like it.

450. Mr McNarry: You are welcome, gentlemen. Your submission states that £143,000 was made available by Belfast City Council and that, unfortunately, that was returned in hall-hire charges. Is that pure coincidence?

451. Mr Byers: Yes, in fairness, it is.

452. Mr McNarry: So, you receive a grant, but it is not to cover hall charges?

453. Mr Byers: No. It is a grant towards the orchestra.

454. Mr McNarry: The money that is available from the grant is equalised by the amount needed for hall charges?

455. Mr Byers: Yes.

456. Mr McNarry: That was just a bit misleading. Were you trying to make a point by saying that?

457. Mr Byers: I am concerned that it seems strange that the Ulster Orchestra has to pay the greatest hall-hire charges of any orchestra in these islands.

458. Mr McNarry: I am very sympathetic to that point, and I am glad that you made it, not me. We now know how much Belfast City Council offers in grant aid and how it takes that money back.

459. Mr Byers: I should add that Belfast City Council has invested money in the Ulster Hall and that we are looking forward to developing a healthy relationship with it. I would like to think that that relationship will blossom.

460. Mr McNarry: That is progress. I was trying to get to the bottom of why that comment was included in your submission. We know where you stand with Belfast City Council, but how much funding does the Arts Council of Northern Ireland provide?

461. Mr Byers: This year, funding is at a standstill of £2,050,000.

462. Mr McNarry: Can you justify that?

463. Mr Byers: Absolutely; we can more than justify that.

464. Mr McNarry: You do not produce any balance sheets. I hear what you say, but how do you justify that figure?

465. Mr Byers: We produce them every year. We can give general figures —

466. Mr Crummey: That money goes towards our activity for the year. We are a charity, and we are non-profit-making, so all of the money that comes in is spent on our activities. We try to have a surplus each year in order to build up a reserve level, because we are a small-to-medium-sized business, and the Charity Commission recommends that charities have six months’ expenditure in their reserves. In our case, that would be approaching £2 million, but our reserves are £336,000, so the precipice that David Byers mentioned earlier is always in the back of my mind when he is trying to plan events.

467. Mr McNarry: I am not saying that you do not need it; I am just saying that you need to justify it.

468. Mr Byers: To give a round figure, it costs nearly £4 million a year to do what we do. That is funded by roughly £2 million from the Arts Council, £750,000 from the BBC and £143,000 from Belfast City Council. We have additional regional council support, which amounts to a few thousand pounds. Our box-office income is around £400,000, which is 10% of our outlay.

469. Mr McNarry: I think that we get the picture. In your submission, you say that the Arts Council and Belfast City Council review your needs annually. Why do they do that? Is it because they give you grant aid annually? One organisation gives you £143,000; the other gives you over £2 million. What is the role and influence of those organisations in that review of needs? Do they lay down stipulations, or do they tell you what to do?

470. Mr Byers: We apply for a grant; we put on paper our proposed programme and what it will cost, and we ask for a certain amount of money. We discuss with the officers the rationale for what we are doing and the nature of what we are doing. Eventually, we get a letter saying that we have been granted a certain amount of money.

471. For many years, we have been arguing for three-year funding grants so that we can plan ahead. Belfast City Council has been most effective in that respect. It stuck to its bargain of a three-year deal, which was uplifted by 3% each year. The Arts Council, because of its situation, has not provided, what would have been, an inflationary uplift. At the moment, inflation may disappear anyway. However, we are waiting to see what that will mean for our ability to forward plan. I have heard only in the past few weeks what my funding will be for next year, although the programme is well in place. The funding bodies keep a strict eye on it, and the funding is all argued for.

472. Mr McNarry: Finally, you say that the orchestra is a charity and that it plans to do this, that and the other. However, your submission specifically states that the Ulster Orchestra is similar to a medium-sized business enterprise. It employs 80 people and has a turnover of £4 million.

473. Mr Byers: If I may rudely interrupt, I would add that we are not on safe ground. The hope is to have reserves to support the business. The board made a decision to make a reserve of £500,000 by 2012, which is much less than the amount that PricewaterhouseCoopers recommended to us. Years ago, we were not allowed to make any profit as such. We have managed to salt away some money, and we are trying to add £40,000 each year to our reserves in order to build them up. That is not money that we can dip into; it is to support redundancies and cash flow and that sort of thing. At the moment, as a business, we are not on the best foundations.

474. Mr McNarry: I am sad to hear that; however, that is, in a sense, the fate of business.

475. Mr Byers: Yes.

476. Mr McNarry: I am concerned that because you are operating, on the one hand, with handouts, and, on the other hand, you are adopting — quite rightly in my opinion — a business sense, you risk losing your own identity in order to meet performances off the balance sheet? It is a fine line, and that is where funding and help are crucial.

477. Mr Byers: That is the big issue that we will face next year. I had to spend the weekend — and I do not make a case that we are exceptional — pruning the programme for next year to such an extent that I worry that it will damage the box-office income, which we rely on. It also stops artistic progress and affects the identity of what we are doing and the nature of the music that we are playing. We are now carving the programme back to the very minimum just to survive. Of course, I want the business to survive so that in a couple of years’ time, when the economy turns upwards, we will be there and ready to go. I do not want to jeopardise the institution.

478. Mr McNarry: What do you think that the Committee could encourage the Arts Council to do for you, in recognition of the current circumstances? It seems that the Ulster Orchestra’s structure is vulnerable due to its reliance on outside funding, and yet it contributes to society locally, and it gives us a good name internationally. How can we help so that the orchestra is not put in jeopardy through overindulgence in a belief that the orchestra must survive monetarily at the sacrifice of what it actually does?

479. Mr Byers: In addition, we have the lowest orchestra salaries in the UK. To return to my earlier point, in order to attract back people who went to study in places such as London or Wales, our salaries should be, at least, on a par with those of other organisations. Musicians will be far more attracted to stay in London or Manchester, where they can pick up freelance work or get a regular job that is better paid, than to come back here. At one time, we could have argued that the cost of housing here was lower; however, that has all changed now.

480. Mr McNarry: One could say that if the venues were cheaper, salaries could be increased.

481. Mr Byers: All of that has an impact.

482. Mr McNarry: If your turnover was better, your salaries could be increased.

483. Mr Byers: It is a vicious circle, no matter what you do. It comes back to the crude business of having enough financial resources to build the structure.

484. Mr Crummey: Also, we do not have any assets as such. Given that we do not own a building or premises, it is difficult to secure a bank loan in a situation where cash is tight.

485. Mr McNarry: I understand all that. However, everyone who comes in here and sits where you are sitting has a bowl in their hands; everyone wants us to do something for them. You have established that you run a professional organisation, but you also run a business. Either you survive or you sink on that basis. I think that part of the issue is whether you can increase your performances. However, I do not know whether that is the case, because there is not enough information in the submission. Can you get more revenue? Rather than simply asking for money, can you not generate some money yourself? You should be telling us what you are going to do, and we will see whether we can back you. What do you need to do?

486. Mr Byers: The sad thing is that, without sponsorship and a significant level of individual giving, our funding comes down to the public purse, because each concert costs money. Therefore, it is cheaper to leave the orchestra at home doing nothing in order to survive than it is to put on a concert.

487. Mr McNarry: Seriously?

488. Mr Byers: That is the embarrassment of it. However, I would not do that, because that would be immoral. It would be immoral for public funding to go into an organisation that did not do anything. Therefore, we put on concerts, but there is a cost involved in doing so. Next year, in order to break even, or to have reserves of £30,000 or £40,000, I will be looking at a balance of minus £300,000. However, I have cut £150,000 from programme costs. I will also have to look at a pay freeze and, depending on expenses, a potential pay cut of up to 4% — despite having the lowest orchestral salaries. All of that is to ensure that, if not balanced, our accounts will be minus only £40,000.

489. Mr McNarry: I appreciate that.

490. Mr Byers: It is tough, and I am fully aware that is tough for everybody. I am not making a special case.

491. The Chairperson: At least four more members have questions that they want to ask, and we are already over time, so I want to move on. Colin, did you want to say something?

492. Mr Stark: I wish to make two brief points. First, I take Mr McNarry’s point absolutely. However, given that he was surprised by the fact that it would be cheaper to sit at home than it would be to put on a concert, I will provide some perspective. A disproportionate amount of the cost of putting on a concert goes to paying the conductor and the soloist. Their fees are very expensive, even though they stay here for only a couple of days. Therefore, if we were to put on a dozen more concerts a year, those fees would add significantly to our costs.

493. Secondly, the fine line between being a business and being an excellent business ties in absolutely with Mr Brolly’s point. Our prime purpose is to be an excellent classical symphony orchestra and to have excellent access and outreach — one informs the other. We cannot have a true community arch without a centre of excellence. One cannot lower the common denominator to the point where the orchestra is no longer excellent. We must juggle between being an excellent orchestra and making ourselves more accessible, but that is extremely difficult. Indeed, at the moment, that is an impossible balancing act, because our resources are on the edge.

494. The Chairperson: I am sorry about this, but I must ask Dominic and Raymond group their questions and Wallace and Nelson group their questions. After that, Ken can ask a question.

495. Mr D Bradley: Colin said that he came through the music-education process in Northern Ireland, from the education and library board to the orchestra. How many of the players in the orchestra are from Northern Ireland?

496. Mr Byers: Around 12 members are from Northern Ireland.

497. Mr D Bradley: That seems to be quite an imbalance.

498. Mr Byers: I probably should not even answer that question, because I feel that it is unfair. There are musicians who have been in the orchestra for 20 or 40 years; they have moved here, and are part of our community. We are part of the EC.

499. We have a vacancy for a principal clarinet player, as ours is retiring after 40 years. We have had 100 applications from around the world, and that appointment will be determined, ultimately, on the best that we can get. We have a timpani player who is from Australia —

500. Mr D Bradley: I was just wondering where all the young players who are educated through the education and library boards’ services are going.

501. Mr Stark: They are going all over the world, because classical professional music-making is truly international. I do not take your point that it is disproportionate. There is disproportion, but it is the reverse of that which you imply. There is quite a high proportion of local people in the local orchestra. In the Birmingham or London Symphony Orchestras, there are probably fewer people, proportionately, from those centres —

502. Mr D Bradley: So, are you saying that the employment field is global?

503. Mr Stark: It is absolutely global, and an orchestra is 100% a meritocracy: every seat is filled by someone who deserves to be there.

504. Mr Byers: My son was the Northern Ireland Young Musician of the Year; he moved to London and stayed there, and he travels all over the world to work. I am not sure that I could entice him back.

505. Mr D Bradley: I asked that purely out of interest; the question that I was going to ask was —

506. Mr Brolly: I must remember that one. [Laughter.]

507. Mr D Bradley: I was going to ask whether you have any way of estimating the economic return from the orchestra, over and above ticket sales, CD sales, and so on. What are the spin-off effects for local businesses in cultural and social capital?

508. Mr McCartney: I have a couple of out-of-interest questions to ask first. [Laughter.]

509. The figures for the Royal Scottish National Orchestra show that it has 83 players and 24 administration staff. The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra has 70 players, and 36 administration staff. You have 82 staff, 63 of whom are musicians and 19 are administrative staff —

510. Mr Byers: We have 63 musicians and 18 full-time and one part-time administrative staff.

511. Mr McCartney: Is that the bare minimum of administration staff that you can have?

512. Mr Byers: Yes, that is the absolute bare minimum.

513. Mr McCartney: Are musicians, such as Colin, contracted to do the outreach work? Does that work involve only a set number of musicians, or are all musicians in the orchestra under that sort of contract?

514. Mr Stark: Only the musicians who are committed to, and interested in, doing the outreach work do all the individual projects. As regards giving concerts with the full orchestra, that is part of everyone’s contractual commitment.

515. Mr McCartney: It is not part of your contractual commitment to do the outreach; that is something that you just do?

516. Mr Crummey: It is channelled through the orchestra.

517. Mr Byers: Mr Bradley asked about the economic return, PricewaterhouseCoopers measured that return in 2004 or 2005. At that point, for every £1 spent, there was a return of £1·93, plus an additional 41p from other sources, such as restaurant meals and that sort of thing —

518. Mr Crummey: Taxis and hotels.

519. Mr Byers: It was roughly £2·50. I believe that that figure has increased since then, because the whole organisation has blossomed in recent years — or it had up until now.

520. Lord Browne: I apologise for arriving late and missing the presentation. I have read the submission, which was extremely informative, and I had the pleasure of attending the opening night at the refurbished Ulster Hall. There was a terrific atmosphere, and a terrific performance.

521. Now that you are moving into the Ulster Hall, there will be a reduced capacity of somewhere in the region of 1,000. Will that affect your box- office takings? What percentage of seats is filled at your concerts? I am unclear about your contract with the BBC; how does that operate?

522. The Chairperson: You may have to note those questions in a ministerial fashion, Mr Byers, because Nelson will ask his questions now, too.

523. Mr McCausland: I have two questions. First, the review of public administration will change the composition of councils. However, at the moment, what financial input is there from councils outside Belfast? Secondly, how will you broaden your markets and attract new clients? I assume that the Royal Scottish National Orchestra marked the two-hundred-and-fiftieth anniversary of the birth of Robert Burns. Is there potential to include Burns Night in an annual programme here? You could reach into that market. I am unsure how an orchestra would do that, but I will take your guidance on the matter.

524. Mr Byers: I will answer Lord Browne’s question. In 2008, the hall capacity was filled to 86% across the season. That figure is unbelievably good. It was a very good year, but given the economic nosedive, I do not know what will happen.

525. The Ulster Hall has reduced its capacity. I am worried that the economic return will decrease while the costs on stage remain the same. However, if we use the Waterfront Hall, the costs will be magnified. Moreover, if a typical Ulster Hall-size audience were to attend a concert there, it would be either half full or half empty, depending on one’s perspective. That causes a problem with morale.

526. Lord Browne: Do you intend to raise charges for the public? I know that you offer many concessionary charges, but will there come a time when you will have to charge more realistically?

527. Mr Byers: In a sense, the obvious answer is that we ought to raise charges in order to achieve the best possible return. However, such an approach will limit access and deprive people who cannot afford to attend. The loyalty of audiences is remarkable. Many people visit five or six times a year, and people pay into 20 concerts. That is a large outlay. If we raise costs, will we retain that audience? Furthermore, if the audience is reduced, it will still have a significant impact on us. Therefore, we try to gauge the effect. However, I do not envisage, for obvious reasons, that we will be able to raise prices in the short term.

528. The Chairperson: Lord Browne asked about your relationship with the BBC.

529. Mr Byers: Our relationship with the BBC has been very good for many years. We are about to enter the second year of a three-year contract, which has not been signed yet. I tried to hold out for the inclusion of an agreement to have one Prom a year, but I have singularly failed to achieve that goal. It is not worth continuing that fight, because we need to ensure that the contract is signed. There is no suggestion of a diminution in the BBC’s support, but we must be wary that it is making general staff cutbacks. I want to play the regional card in order to ensure that we receive our fair share of BBC resources. We could not survive without the BBC.

530. Mr Crummey: We organise 12 free concerts a year and do much studio work for BBC Radio 3 and Radio Ulster.

531. Mr Byers: We are based in the Belfast City Council area, and our main halls are located there. Derry City Council has been reasonably supportive, and we tried to organise a major series in Derry some years ago. That did not work out. The Millennium Forum is one of the few places that can accommodate the whole orchestra. It does not, unfortunately, have the nicest acoustic for the orchestra. The council pays us approximately £20,000 a year for specific concerts.

532. There is a good partnership in Coleraine between the university, Coleraine Borough Council and Flowerfield Arts Centre, which you visited last week. It also pays approximately £20,000, and we are talking to them at the moment. They want to reduce that figure because of the economic situation, and, therefore, we will lose some money. We hold two concerts a year in Enniskillen at a cost of approximately £16,000. We arrange concerts in other places on a one-off basis.

533. As a result of the Arts Council’s withdrawal of support for some venues around the country, which was probably a move to get the councils to fund the arts more, those venues are saying that they can no longer afford us. The minimum above-the-line cost for a concert in the regions is £6,500 to £7,000, and, for that amount of money, venues could put on, perhaps, 17 nights of a one-man show. I have great sympathy with them, although I wish that it was not that way.

534. With respect to the question about Burns Night, every year I consider putting something on for Burns Night, such as Mendelssohn’s “Scottish" symphony, but it has never quite worked out. Some years ago, although it was during the festival, we did a concert with Eddi Reader. On St Patrick’s Day, we adopt a cross-community approach to our programme, which includes a mixture of Ulster-Scots and Irish traditional music. However, I have yet to construct a programme for Burns Night that would achieve that mix. If someone wishes to talk to me, I would be happy to discuss it — all the better if he or she were to bring some sponsorship funding to the table.

535. Mr McCausland: Given that Belfast City Council sponsors St Patrick’s Day events, I am sure that we could talk to it about sponsoring Burns Night events as well.

536. The Chairperson: If there are 63 musicians in the orchestra, how many of them are involved in the valuable outreach work in Rathcoole and Poleglass that Colin Stark mentioned?

537. Mr Stark: Although it is hard to give a number, probably 20 people are constantly involved in that work. Sometimes we pull in other people for bespoke projects. However, close to a third of the orchestra is heavily committed to that work on an ongoing basis.

538. The Chairperson: Is there an argument for including engagement in such work in musicians’ contractual arrangements?

539. Mr Stark: Yes, up to a point. Everyone is involved when we stage full orchestra concerts as part of our outreach work for the education boards. However, on an individual level, people must want to work with young people and be comfortable doing so. It is not what they were trained to do.

540. Mr Byers: Some years ago, we went down the route of attempting to get everyone to do education work by making it part of the contract. However, a person is employed by the orchestra, in the first instance, because he or she is a wonderful clarinet player or trumpet player. That person might be death in a classroom and not suited to such work. Therefore, we play to our strengths, and reward people accordingly.

541. Mr K Robinson: Your point about schools is valid; the worst thing that one could do would be to put an excellent musician into a school if he or she has no rapport with either the staff or pupils. That would be an absolute disaster, although I know that Colin Stark is not like that, because he was well grounded in Cavehill Primary School.

542. There are two aims for the orchestra: the short-term aim is to get over the economic hump and the long-term aim is to grow audiences. You have started to engage with schools, but I perceive a gap emerging in people’s middle years, when they move on from school and are lost until they have young families of their own. Only then do they come back with their youngsters. Perhaps that is an area that you might wish to address. What are your thoughts about that matter?

543. Mr Byers: That is right.

544. Mr K Robinson: I wish to issue a disclaimer, Mr Chairperson. Mr McCausland — the banker for Belfast City Council — and I have been examining your ‘Move to the Music’ programme. First, neither of us are over 70 years of age, and we do not live in Ballymena or Armagh, so we lost out on both of those counts. Moreover, we wonder whether we would have wanted to go to ‘Flights of Fancy’, ‘Repentant Thief’, ‘Beethoven Inspired’ or ‘In the ‘Classical Charts’. We thought that the one that we would probably have understood most was ‘In the Classical Charts’, but the others left us cold. For the rest of the 2008-09 season, we have gone for ‘Fate and Destiny’, which is heavy stuff, and ‘Symphonic Dances’.

545. Mr McNarry: They are philistines. [Laughter.]

546. Mr Byers: Those brochures are sent with details of what is in the programmes.

547. Mr K Robinson: You are giving people a menu, but is it the right musical menu? Rather than giving people what you think they should hear, are they ready for that programme, and is it likely to grow audiences? I think that there is long-term slippage in the development of audiences as they come through from schools and short-term slippage with respect to your current markets.

548. Mr Byers: The concert programme must attempt to be all things to all people. Those little leaflets are accompanied by programme details that help people choose what is most attractive to them.

549. We select programmes that will, we hope, be appreciated more than others, and also programmes that we can perform in a larger hall that can cope with busloads of people. There would tend to be more concerts in the Waterfront Hall, rather than the Ulster Hall, for example.

550. As regards the age profile, there is a noticeable gap in the middle — that applies across the world.

551. Mr Crummey: That applies not only in relation to music. I coach under-age hurling teams, and many of the players leave at the age of 16. It is difficult to get those players back later.

552. Mr Byers: There is a cost involved in going to concerts. There is a much larger cost in going to a pop concert, but one would go to, maybe, one or two of those a year. We are looking for more regular attendance if possible. A night out, even with our relatively cheap prices, would involve paying £30 for a couple of £15 tickets, as well as paying for car parking, babysitters, and all that sort of thing. The costs mount up, and that is what we are up against.

553. Mr Stark: It is my experience that the audiences come back; if we capture them young, they then enter the dark tunnel of adolescence, but they will come back again. We are also experimenting, when we can afford to do so, with family concerts, which are held late on Saturday afternoons or early on Saturday evenings, and the take-up for those has been terrific. Those are attended by three-year-olds, which makes for a very noisy concert, but young families are coming when concerts are accessible to them.

554. Mr Byers: The research in the United States led to grave worries 10 years ago that audiences for classical music concerts were dying out. One can look at all the grey heads and think that it is terrible. However, that has not happened. The audiences are constantly being replenished as people come on board.

555. The Chairperson: Perhaps Ken, Nelson and Wallace would like to declare interests?

556. Mr McCausland: I am a member of Belfast City Council.

557. Mr K Robinson: I am a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council, and we have not had a concert for a very long time. I think the last one that I attended in official capacity was in 1991 or 1992 when I was Mayor.

558. The Chairperson: That should change as a result of your intervention.

559. Mr Byers: We are talking to that council at the moment; it wants us to perform at the opening of the new civic arts centre.

560. The Chairperson: You have an interest to declare in that you are talking to your former pupils, Ken.

561. Lord Browne: I am a member of Belfast City Council.

562. The Chairperson: Thank you very much, David, Colin and Colm for a very good engagement.

26 March 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr Will Chamberlain		Belfast Community Circus School
Ms Ali FitzGibbon Mr Joe Kelly		Young at Art

563. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): We will hear from Belfast Community Circus School, so members should declare membership of district councils, or any body that funds arts organisations, such as an education and library board.`

564. Mr McCausland: I am a member of Belfast City Council and a member of the Belfast Education and Library Board.

565. Mr Shannon: I am a member of Ards Borough Council.

566. Lord Browne: I am a member of Belfast City Council.

567. Mr McCarthy: I am a member of Ards Borough Council.

568. Mr K Robinson: I am a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

569. Mr P Ramsey: I am a member of Derry City Council, and a director of the Millennium Forum Theatre.

570. Mr McCartney: I saw the Festival of Fools, but I have no interests to declare. [Laughter.]

571. The Chairperson: I am a member of Omagh District Council.

572. A copy of the written submission from Belfast Community Circus School is in the members’ information packs. I invite Mr Will Chamberlain, director of the Belfast Community Circus School, to join us. He will speak for 10 minutes, after which there will be an opportunity for questions. We will then hear from Young at Art.

573. Good morning, Will. You are very welcome. If you could make a 10-minute presentation.

574. Mr Will Chamberlain (Belfast Community Circus School): This is, perhaps, not the most conventional presentation. I am going to ask the Committee to play a little game of ‘Let’s Pretend’. I am sure that you gentlemen do that all the time in various forms, but we will do a quick warm-up. I am aware that this might fall flat on its face. However, as a professional clown for 12 years, I am quite used to that, so I can cope.

575. The first scenario is 1985, and I am a street performer. Now, that is not ‘Let’s Pretend’, because I actually was a street performer in 1985. The Committee can choose its role: it can be a Government Department somewhere in the world, or a retro ‘Dragons’ Den’. I am coming to you as a street performer. I have had quite a good show on the road with a few friends. We then decided to do a tented tour and we lost about £50,000.

576. However, I am coming to you because I have an idea about how to make the show much bigger and better. All I need from you — in 1985 — is £500,000, and I will spend it wisely. It is now over to the Committee, as the Government Department or ‘Dragons’ Den’. Thumbs up or thumbs down, please?

577. The Chairperson: Or a scrutiny Committee, even. We like to regard ourselves as a scrutiny Committee.

578. Mr Chamberlain: I am asking you to ‘Let’s Pretend’ that you are a different Department. You are a direct funding body.

579. The Chairperson: I have no difficulty with that, but I am going to pretend that I am part of a scrutiny Committee. [Laughter.]

580. Mr P Ramsey: Could I suggest that you put your proposal in writing, and we will then go through it? [Laughter.]

581. Mr Chamberlain: Those are good answers. You have, effectively, just squashed the birth of Cirque du Soleil, which now has a multi-billion- dollar-a-year turnover. The initial investment came from the Quebec Government to a street performer who had no significant track record. It is now a global operation.

582. The Chairperson: How much do you want, Will? We will have to give it to you. [Laughter.]

583. Mr Chamberlain: I should have said that you would have received 1% in return for your investment. That 1% is what Cirque du Soleil dispenses in charitable giving every year.

584. The second ‘Let’s Pretend’ is a little bit more complex. For this one, I am the CEO of a small and medium-sized enterprise (SME) that specialises in ICT, and I have come to Invest NI. The Committee can choose to be the ‘Dragons’ Den’ if it prefers, because it is something that —

585. The Chairperson: You are a CEO of an SME, and you are interested in ICT —

586. Mr Chamberlain: No, I am not interested in ICT — it is our specialist area — [Laughter.] — and I am coming to you for an investment in an employment training programme that will deliver —

587. The Chairperson: In ITP?

588. Mr Chamberlain: I had not got that far. The programme will deliver employment to all the graduates, and within three years, at a conservative estimate, the investment in the training will be repaid in the tax take from the employees. Therefore, that is quite a safe bet. As Invest NI, you have invested numerous times in IT projects, but this is one with a difference, because it is about not so much the employment and the tax take, but the nature of product. We specialise in software development — educational software, gaming software and marketing software.

589. After the training programme is completed, all the graduates are employed and they will contribute to the economy of Northern Ireland in a number of ways. They will support tourism, because they will create mobile, interactive platforms in each local authority area, which will enhance visitor experience and contribute to the perception of Northern Ireland as tourist friendly.

590. Gaming is a big area these days, so the games created by our graduates will be played every year by 200,000 people in Northern Ireland. Within a few years, we will be exporting our graduates’ gaming expertise to Australia, America, Europe and, occasionally, to the Middle East. Quite an interesting proposition, I think, so far.

591. However, the graduates will also create the software that supports social networking, but with a difference, because this social networking program also promotes the physical engagement between young people in a totally safe environment. That engagement will also support community development, help young people to develop confidence, and promote tolerance and diversity. So, that is all quite good.

592. The final thing that our graduates will provide for Northern Ireland is innovative educational software that will provide youth work of the highest quality and deliver benefits through personal development with regard to life skills and creativity — and deliver on TSN (targeting social need). That, basically, is my pitch. I am asking for £125,000, and you can have a 100% stake. So, what do you think?

593. Mr K Robinson: You did not refer to drunkenness in the Holylands as a benefit of this, I notice.

594. Mr Chamberlain: We claim to deliver only what we deliver. We can deliver a programme that works with the young people in Botanic primary school at the top of Agincourt Avenue, where we did a project last week, but we cannot deliver to the students further down the road at the moment. With research, development and investment we can work on that.

595. So, why am I playing a game of ‘Let’s Pretend’? Obviously, I do not run a software company, but my organisation delivers all the benefits that I just outlined. We do not have mobile interactive programs for tourists — what we have are performers. I forgot to say that we enhance retail. We have performers who are brought in for their services from across Northern Ireland and beyond to enhance the experience of people who live in an area, to enhance other events in an area, to enhance visitor experience and, increasingly, to attract shoppers. The Committee will, no doubt, be delighted about, and aware of, the Belfast shopping festival — so, shopping is, officially, an activity that we can festivalise — to which we are being to contribute.

596. We contribute all the benefits that I outlined, but not through IT — through circus. I used this approach to demonstrate that the arts are not taken seriously, and, within the arts, the circus is still not taken seriously.

597. Yesterday, I was at a symposium organised by Belfast City Council — I know that the Committee Clerk was there — and it was a fantastic event. For me, it was very inspirational. Something that I learned there was that, with regard to skills, employers are looking for employees who are flexible and able to adapt. Those are the very life skills that the arts give people. For some reason, however, we are not shouting that from the rooftops.

598. The arts is the biggest-growing sector in the UK economy. Apparently, until late last year, financial services were No 1, but, for obvious reasons, that is not mentioned any more. The creative sector, therefore, is the biggest growth area, and yet, for the past four years, I have been trying to get funding for a training programme because demand has exceeded our ability to supply it.

599. The Chairperson: To who have you made the funding application?

600. Mr Chamberlain: I have not even made an application, Barry, because there is nowhere that I can apply. I have talked to the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL). I have talked to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) and the Minister, Angela Smith, who was very helpful, but directed me towards DEL. I have approached the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and Invest NI. I have put a proposal to the Finance Minister, who happens to be our local MP. There is no avenue for us, as far as I can determine. However, the last time that we secured funding through a one-off National Lottery programme, the result was a 1,000% increase in turnover in 10 years. Any business that can present such figures suggests that there is a strength to it, but we do not fit the right categories.

601. The Chairperson: Well, allow us to ask you some questions.

602. Mr Shannon: Thank you for your presentation and for the novel way in which you put it over. It does stimulate us all to start to think about what you have said. Obviously, one thing that you have tried to do is to target areas of social need, and you have tried to interact with community groups. I am disappointed, I have to say, that you have not been able to source funding, and perhaps that is really the issue. So, we are back, probably, to the Arts Council, and that is why this inquiry is taking place. Mine is probably an obvious question, but I am going to ask it anyway: do you think that the Arts Council should be helping to reach the community groups to target those areas of social need; and, for that reason, do you feel that the Arts Council is the body that should be helping you more?

603. Mr Chamberlain: In answer to your first question, of course the Arts Council should be targeting social need as a priority. I feel that progress has been made over the past number of years — and I believe that I made that point in my written submission. When I first became involved with the Arts Council, it was more in an antagonistic way, demanding that community arts receive funding, and I think that that was even before the targeting of social need. The argument has now been made and community arts are now part of the family of what gets funded. I do not think, yet, that that runs sufficiently throughout every funded organisation. I think that, perhaps, the Arts Council could address that a little more. Some figures have been presented to the Committee on how much gets spent in super output areas by the Arts Council. I am unconvinced by those figures, which claim that 58% is in Belfast and 56% in Northern Ireland as a whole. I think that those figures need closer scrutiny.

604. Mr Shannon: You have tried all the bodies — DCAL, DEL and so on — and you have, unfortunately, come up against obstacles and been unable to source funding. In my opinion, it seems to fall back on the Arts Council. Do you think that it should be trying to identify more sources of funding for you?

605. Mr Chamberlain: Absolutely. It is rather sad that the Arts Council does not play a proactive role in identifying any funding outside its own remit. Sadly, we have probably missed a lot of boats in respect of European funding. Certainly, if one looks across at Gateshead and Newcastle, their cultural renaissance was brought about through a combination of the National Lottery and Government agencies linking in with European moneys; whereas, over here, we have, apparently, an expert on European funding in the Arts Council, but that has never seen results.

606. As regards the training programme that I would be proposing, it is other Government Departments as well that really need to stop looking at things with tunnel vision. There needs to be connectivity. What we are going to be contributing to Northern Ireland’s economy and society will meet the Department of Education’s objectives for youth work; the Department for Social Development’s objectives for community and capacity building; and tourism objectives. Therefore, responsibility should not fall to simply the Arts Council.

607. Unfortunately, as soon as the word “art" is mentioned, many other Departments simply say: “We can pass that particular buck: it goes there." There is no proper collaboration on funding mechanisms. I have heard it described that when officials from four Departments are around a table, it is a case of “do not blink first", because any suggestion of interest means that you are going to foot the whole bill. That mentality needs to change.

608. Mr Shannon: That is great. Thank you.

609. The Chairperson: If members do not mind, due to time restrictions I will ask Pat and Kieran to ask their questions together, followed by Nelson and Wallace, so that questions can be answered together.

610. Mr P Ramsey: Will, you are very welcome. It is good to see you again. You refer somewhat to, I suppose, a more progressive approach that is taken by other European countries and regional Governments in securing European-based funding. Are there examples of that? You talked about the need of having the capacity or expertise because of the difficulty that is created by those funding programmes. Can you explain that further?

611. In your presentation, you talked about the higher value that is placed in Scotland, for example, in promoting that region as a powerhouse of the arts and a much stronger positive image. Is that through direct arts funding, or is it more of a tourism-related area?

612. Street theatre is, in many ways, a unique area of the arts, and your community-based circus is a unique and creative example of that. You also made the point, which is fundamental to our inquiry, that, as regards funding in other European countries, you have identified in your paper that there is a stronger relevance given to those with regard to the participation of young people and the creation of employment. Are there areas in Europe that we could examine with regard to the higher level of investment given to street theatre? Where do we go to see models of best practice?

613. My final point refers to a matter that we discussed earlier: that of showcasing some of our talent in Parliament Buildings. At some stage, some of your people could have an opportunity to come here to showcase their talent in whatever form that takes. Perhaps that could be arranged through the Committee staff.

614. Mr McCarthy: In your submission, you referred to a perception that there is a ceiling on funding for community arts, which is far lower than for professional arts. Can you elaborate a little on that?

615. Mr Chamberlain: I will deal with the latter question first. Although there is an understanding that community arts can be delivered with professionals, if you try asking for resources to give you professional-level production values, you would soon exhaust the community-arts budget.

616. There is an acceptance that art costs — quality art costs and high art costs. I choose those phrases because others use them, and I assume that you are familiar with them. However, there is also a sense that community art probably takes place in a community hall, tends to be cheaper and does not require as many professionals to be involved. Although excellent community art can be delivered at a low cost, we are not always given the opportunity to deliver excellent community art at the higher end of the cost range. In the past 12 years, there were probably only two examples of our sector being given such an opportunity, and, unfortunately, they were not great successes, but that is the nature of the arts. The arts should be about risk-taking, learning lessons from that and continuing to take risks.

617. I will relate to the Committee my experience of European funding. The Belfast Community Circus School is increasingly linked to Europe and has just made its first joint application under the Leonardo programme. For members who are not familiar with Leonardo, it is an educational, vocational training programme. It took seven European partners five days sitting around a table to agree the project and write the application, partly because it was a learning process for many of us who were involved, although we were fortunate that two people knew the system.

618. My point is that, in essence, applying for European funding will be complicated and complex and, without any support and guidance, scary. Speaking as someone who has spent half his professional life filling out grant application forms, filling out one’s first EU grant application — whether it is for Culture 2000, Leonardo or even Youth Action — is absolutely petrifying because, I know that when I did it, I had no idea of what it would feed into.

619. We need more support from the Government and not only from the Arts Council. There is an organisation based in Bedford Street — I can never remember what it is called — that is supposed to provide information and support and so forth, but I have been there and I found that the staff provide no help at all. We need someone with expertise to sit down with groups and explain how the application process works.

620. Our first EU collaboration with Aarhus in Denmark was on Culture 2000. That led to the Festival of Fools, but all the work for the initial collaboration was done by a unit of Aarhus City Council. That unit had been given a semi-autonomous role and a remit to support collaborative approaches in Europe. Nelson, I am not suggesting that Belfast City Council should make that its role model. My point is that the people in Aarhus applied their practical expertise. The Arts Council has a number of researchers; perhaps they could help by researching which bodies we can approach for help and signposting us to them.

621. There is a debate about how to free up resources from the Arts Council. I may be questioned about this suggestion later, but I want to raise it anyway. There is an enormous monitoring requirement on the Arts Council that is, in turn, passed on to its clients. A huge amount of human resources in the Arts Council and throughout the sector is devoted to meeting that requirement. Across the sector, one person could spend the equivalent of two years working on annual monitoring. That is only one aspect of what is required of the Arts Council, and it is a tremendous waste of time.

622. The investment in Scotland has been for both tourism and the arts, and a £450,000 marketing initiative for festivals there was announced this week. That will attract visitors but, importantly, it will also be an investment for the arts, because the more people who buy tickets for those festivals, the more funding the arts will receive.

623. In relation to street-theatre and circus models, if the Committee is going to look anywhere in the world, I would love it if it were to look at France or Spain. You might choose Spain because it has a slightly nicer climate, but the investment — both at municipal and Government level — is massive in both countries. A company called Royal de Luxe brought the Sultan’s Elephant to London in 2006 — that is a massive structure and I advise Committee members to look it up on Google as it is phenomenal. The cost of that company’s productions alone runs to millions of pounds, which equates to the entire budget for circus and street theatre in the UK for several years.

624. Mr McCausland: I have two questions, the first of which deals with an area that other members may touch on in their questions. In relation to funding, you have stated that there should be a clean-sheet approach each year; how do you reconcile that with the aspiration for more three-year funding?

625. My second question — and I am aware that in the past you were the chairman of the Community Arts Forum and I asked you the same question some years ago — is that, if you view street and circus theatre as community arts, what is your definition of community arts?

626. Lord Browne: I am a member of Belfast City Council, and I appreciate the work that you carry out as it brings a great sense of well-being to the city centre. In relation to funding, you have stated that your organisation receives £147,500 a year, yet on page three of your report you state that it receives £190,000 a year — will you clarify that? Secondly, will you give the Committee a breakdown of the contributions that your organisation receives from the public and private sectors? I understand that the Festival of Fools received money from Victoria Square.

627. Thirdly, I remember giving a rather boring and mundane speech on a stage in front of the City Hall, and what I would describe as an Oxo cube with a head poking out of it came by and made a lot of gestures at me. That improved both the speech and the atmosphere. [Laughter.] I have never seen it again — is that act still in your circus? I would like to see it again.

628. Mr McNarry: What did you do with the costume, Barry?

629. Mr McCartney: Perhaps you could bring it up here the odd morning. [Laughter.]

630. Mr Chamberlain: I will answer the last question first. I think you may be referring to Maynard Flip Flap, Man in a Box. You will be delighted to hear that although he is based in England, he will be returning for this year’s Festival of Fools, which is sponsored, as you correctly said, by Victoria Square. Therefore, I can answer at least one question positively.

631. Going back to Nelson’s questions, he is quite right that there is an apparent contradiction in the suggested clean-sheet approach and the request for three- or five-year funding. Perhaps I should have thought through and expressed that point more clearly. Essentially, it is about the point at which funding decisions are taken. So, if you decide to take a three-year approach, then you will review the last three years. It is something that you can get very badly wrong. You have to acknowledge that certain organisations will go through periods of change involving, for instance, staff changes or restructuring. I am not for one moment suggesting that such organisations should be penalised for that, provided that they have a strong business plan and programme and it is clear that they are going to be delivering on that. However, I feel that, if not rewarded, inertia has certainly been allowed, and that has not necessarily been very healthy for the system.

632. I would not necessarily classify street theatre and circus as community arts. For me, community arts is about a process; that is, participation, the creativity of the individuals involved and their ownership of that process. An example of the community arts element of our work is when we work with young people.

633. Currently, we are working on a programme with the Lower Ormeau Residents’ Action Group (LORAG) and the Bridge Partnership, which are two different community groups that are coming together and taking ownership of that project. They took part in the St Patrick’s day parade a couple of weeks ago and are looking at creating a new name for themselves that is not specific to either community. They are shaping the direction of that project.

634. We are fortunate enough to have two years’ worth of funding from Children in Need that we can devote to that programme. The young people involved in it can input into the content of sessions as well as the devising of any shows or presentations. By and large, street theatre involves professionals delivering what is the ultimately accessible art form, but that process is more of a professional development than is the case with community arts.

635. Mr McCausland: Do you regard a band as being a community arts project? A band is under the ownership of its members, who determine the process and virtually everything to do with it — it is totally democratic.

636. Mr Chamberlain: The one area where a band does not necessarily tick the box is with regard to authorship. Generally, bands play other people’s music but, for me, the community arts movement is about having authentic, original expression from its participants. I am not knocking bands, because their function is to play music that is put in front of them. However, I would say that bands come under the category of music rather than community arts.

637. Mr McCausland: Are you saying that something is not community arts unless there is creativity or something new?

638. Mr Chamberlain: Yes; that is my working definition of it.

639. The Chairperson: There should be an element of personal interpretation.

640. Mr Chamberlain: The annual support for organisations that we get amounts to £147,500; that is our core funding from the Arts Council. The figure of £190,000 refers to the previous year and was the totality of the Annual Support for Organisations Programme (ASOP) funding — which in that year was £87,900 — as well as funding from a variety of lottery funds.

641. One of the reasons that our money went up quite dramatically last year was because long-term lottery funding disappeared and jeopardised our youth circus. As regards long-term funding, I am in a ridiculous situation with the Festival of Fools. We have £13,700 funding for next year for some staffing costs, but everything else is short term. If I apply for lottery funding this month, I will find out in September whether we have money for next year’s festival, and that is the longest-term funding that I can get. That would provide 50% of the necessary funding; the other 50% will come any time up to five weeks before the festival.

642. Apparently, we are in receipt of an allocation from the DCAL events growth fund, but I do not yet know what that is supposed to be spent on. I fear that we will not be able to spend that grant, because some of it will be for out-of-state marketing that we cannot book and produce in time for the festival. There are so many examples of when funding bodies have failed to understand that, if an organisation’s event or activity takes place at the beginning of the financial year, that organisation will not have time to use the money that it has been allocated.

643. Mr K Robinson: Will, I notice that you were a member of the Arts Council — perhaps there is an element of poacher-turned-gamekeeper to your submission. You stated that the Arts Council operates a system that rarely admits new organisations, even if their merit outweighs that of organisations that are already being funded. Can you provide a specific example of that?

644. Mr Chamberlain: In the past, there was an organisation that was not admitted even though it had scored higher than a number of the organisations that were already being funded. That happened because admitting that new organisation would have meant pushing another organisation out the exit door. There was not a case to say that any of the other organisations had failed to deliver and, therefore, a tough choice had to be made. Tough choices are not being made very often; it is easier to continue with the status quo.

645. Mr K Robinson: Is it a case of people not wanting to disrupt the cosy club system?

646. Mr Chamberlain: It happens as a result of the fact that, historically, the arts has been under funded. The Arts Council indicated that applications worth £13 million were made for the £10 million of funding that is available. I suspect that the demand figure is probably closer to £17 million. Every year, clients are told that there is no more money in the pot and that they should not bother applying for more. Those people then decide to forget ambitious expansion programmes and simply apply for the same amount that they received in the previous year.

647. The fundamental problem is that there is not enough money in the system. I was amazed when the Festival of Fools received core funding of £13,000 this year. I thought that no new organisations would be admitted, but I believe that one organisation is out the door this year. Over the years, there has not been a massive change in how much and for how long organisations have been funded.

648. Mr K Robinson: Are we not, therefore, cosseting people into the grant culture? Rather than organisations relying on getting an annual grant, should they not be taking a more sustainable, long-term approach?

649. Mr Chamberlain: The arts will never be sustainable without a public subsidy. We work tirelessly to create a mix of incomes. Apologies; I did not answer the earlier question regarding our organisation’s mix of public- and private-sector funding. Some 40% of our money comes from the private sector in the form of sales and sponsorship, and 60% of our funding comes from the public sector. We deliver excellent value for that 60%; indeed, we should get more money because we work on a shoestring budget, and I could do with having an evening to myself every now and then. The reality is that the public sector will always fund the arts. We have seen an increase in the demand for the arts from the general public.

650. Mr K Robinson: Other sections of the arts fraternity have told us that they will give a return of £1·50 or £4 for every £1 that is invested in their organisation. What return could you give on a £1 investment?

651. Mr Chamberlain: Such financial indicators and multiplier effects are crude, because they only measure the narrow economic impact. We have surveyed the audiences at the Festival of Fools since it began, and we believe that we deliver a return of about £13 on every £1 that is invested by the public sector.

652. The Chairperson: Will, thank you very much for your submission and for taking part in the question-and-answer session.

653. Mr Chamberlain: I will finish by saying: do not stop pretending.

654. Mr McCartney: We make a living out of it. [Laughter.]

655. The Chairperson: Before we move on to the next evidence session, I understand that both Pat Ramsey and Ken Robinson must leave — thank you both for attending this morning.

656. The next evidence session is with Young at Art. I welcome Joe Kelly and Ali FitzGibbon — chairman and director of Young at Art respectively — to the Committee. I apologise for keeping you both waiting — the previous witness, Will Chamberlain, had the Committee involved in a game of let’s pretend. [Laughter.] I would like this session to be based on reality, if possible. I will hand over immediately to Joe and Ali to make a ten-minute presentation, which will be followed by questions from members.

657. Mr Joe Kelly (Young at Art): Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, I thank you for your invitation to submit oral evidence to this inquiry. My colleague Ali and I will both make introductory remarks.

658. In building a successful future for the arts in Northern Ireland, Young at Art recognises the central role of this Committee and our devolved Administration in making the right decisions for building and sustaining a thriving arts and cultural industry. The future success of the sector is dependent on the leadership of the Arts Council, a strengthened role for local Government and the effective work of DCAL and other Departments in recognising and supporting the work of our artists and our arts and cultural organisations.

659. The 2007 Keep our Arts Alive campaign — which was supported by this Committee — highlighted the need for improved funding for the sector. The primary rationale for increasing the per capita spend on the arts must be to provide adequate and sustained support to achieve the long-term goals of quality, engagement, accessibility and benefit for our society and communities. It must also establish Northern Ireland as a leading international example of high-quality arts practice and cultural enterprise.

660. Northern Ireland has a creative workforce of 37,000 people. The arts is one of the fastest-growing sectors in our regional and national economies, accounting for 8% of GDP. The Assembly’s Programme for Government has set a target of 15% growth in the creative industries by 2014. The arts is the core of the creative and cultural industries sector, as well as being the engine that drives it. Growth and economic success in the creative industries are dependent on a sustainable and thriving arts sector where skills are learnt and developed, and where creativity and entrepreneurship are nurtured.

661. Another key growth area of our economy is tourism, and at the heart of that is cultural tourism, which is increasing internationally, at a rate of 15% per annum. Importantly, the arts is a core provider of our cultural tourism offer, by telling our unique story, expressing our cultural personalities and showcasing an exciting, contemporary Northern Ireland.

662. Arts organisations are just the same as any other businesses, and Young at Art is a small business. We take our legal and governance responsibilities seriously and are concerned about pay levels and staff working conditions. We must ensure organisational and business compliance across a range of legislation, and we must balance our books. The most significant difference between an arts organisation and a commercial business is that we do not take profits; we reinvest back into our society, our communities and our industry.

663. The historic reality of public funding for the arts largely prevents the sector from employing through pay scales, rewarding performance or contributing to pensions. That raises significant issues in retaining staff and skills in Northern Ireland, which in turn undermines sustainability and growth for individual organisations as well as the sector as a whole.

664. Our sector is dependent on subsidy, most essentially for our core overheads and activities. If a secure funding base for those costs could be provided, it would be possible to lever higher levels of additional funding and sponsorship.

665. Young at Art and the Belfast Children’s Festival illustrate how the arts reach across the Assembly’s Programme for Government and deliver on a range of priorities and targets. For example, in May 2008, a Young at Art programme at the Waterworks in north Belfast supported community regeneration, community cohesion in sharing public spaces and bringing communities together, volunteering, development of access and participation, reduction in antisocial behaviour and training and employment opportunities.

666. Most clearly marked are the educational benefits in schools and community groups, where children and young people demonstrate improved levels of confidence, improved thinking skills, enhanced motivation and the ability to learn independently. Those intrinsic benefits are dependent on being able to attract and retain high quality, professional artists and other personnel in Northern Ireland who can develop and maintain audiences and support community access and participation.

667. Northern Ireland is a small place, and leadership is important. Through the Assembly, the Arts Council of Northern Ireland, which is the sector’s lead body, needs to be strengthened in its role to lead the development of the sector and to work with and support the industry in setting strategic priorities for public funding of the arts across Northern Ireland.

668. Ms Ali FitzGibbon (Young at Art): I will illustrate the key challenges for Young at Art as it works in the arts industry in the current environment. We have a challenge to deliver our activities to their true potential. Until 2006, Young at Art toured children’s events each year to venues across Northern Ireland, and we would like to keep doing that and keep working with our partners in local authorities. However, we cannot do that without additional resources.

669. In 2005, Young at Art brought international festival promoters to Belfast to see local artists perform. That visit resulted in local artists being invited to take their work to Denmark, England, Ireland, Serbia, China and Taiwan. We want the festival to be a marketplace that allows us to export our culture every year, but we cannot do that without adequate support.

670. Our programme in the Waterworks park in 2008 achieved so many things with children, artists and communities, but, without sufficient resources to build on that work, we have had to cancel that event this year. We face a real challenge to keep our core work going.

671. The Belfast Children’s Festival is the largest cultural festival for children in Northern Ireland. It runs over 10 days and involves more than 10,000 children and adults, over 170 events, 40 volunteers and 120 artists from at least seven different countries.

672. Our core funding from two funders will not cover the cost of three staff, as well as overheads, in the next financial year. The festival is dependent on project funding from the National Lottery. On top of that support, our fundraising bill for the 2009 festival is more than £120,000, which we have found from 21 different public and private sources, most of which have contributed less than £5,000.

673. Managing the demands of 24 different businesses, agencies and Departments with three staff, while delivering an exceptional international festival, is our biggest challenge. On top of that, many of the funding streams to which we must apply are based on allocating and reporting within one financial year, or have time-bound funding rounds. Several questions arise as a result of that. What do we do if we have to book something a year in advance? How do we engage in consultation and outreach if we do not know whether our project or event will happen? How do we overcome the challenge of such short-term planning and support?

674. We struggle with the true cost of finding other sources of income. We charge low prices — between £3 and £7 per ticket — we run free events and we offer support schemes for families and communities in need, because we believe that every child should have access to a high quality arts experience. However, charging low prices for tickets or offering free admission costs money, and the necessary resources are not there. Our challenge is to maintain accessibility while balancing our books. If we manage to secure sponsorship to help to support our costs, which in itself is a challenge, how do we control the commercial force that sponsors can exert on children and parents who take part in our activities?

675. Furthermore, we are challenged by a talent drain, and we need to invest in our workforce. The arts industry is made up not of large organisations with permanent staff, but of small companies, which have fewer than five staff and are dependent on freelance personnel.

676. As the amount of work for the freelance workforce reduces, more people will leave the industry or leave Northern Ireland, reducing the skills base further.

677. Mr J Kelly: To conclude, Young at Art believes that, with the support of the Committee and the engagement of all stakeholders, there is a positive future for the arts in Northern Ireland. Young at Art could maximise its contribution to building that vision and delivering the benefits to the cultural, social and economic life of Northern Ireland if a baseline level of funding for core activities and programmes were committed to on a sustained, long-term basis — rising with inflation and the cost of living — and if consideration were given to how funding mechanisms can better support the various ways in which the sector works.

678. The Chairperson: Thank you.

679. Mr McCarthy: Thank you for your presentation. In your submission, you say that the arts sector:

“is suffering from an under-investment by other departments … for work that delivers a cross-government agenda … eg health, youth work, education."

680. How do you reckon that we can persuade other Departments in Northern Ireland to invest more in the arts? Have you any suggestions about how we could get other Departments to contribute?

681. Mr McNarry: I congratulate you on, and thank you for, your oral and written submissions. Do you think that there should be a review of the funding criteria? Should such a review concentrate on the size of an arts provider, or should it be opened up to allow smaller organisations to engage in the arts?

682. On the back of that, you said that you were a small business. Who do you compete with? Do you think that there is too much competition in the various sectors that are, perhaps, chasing the same pot of money and the same sources of sponsorship?

683. Mr J Kelly: To answer the first question, the arts sector, intrinsically and historically, has worked with other Departments, such as the Department of Education and, to some degree, with the Department for Employment and Learning. We are beginning to look at cultural tourism with the Northern Ireland Tourist Board. There is overlap, but the biggest issue that we face is advocacy — having the resources to be a strong advocate for what we do and how it contributes to the agenda. We understand it, but there are resource implications as regards how we speak to officers in other agencies or relate to other Departments. We have to put time and resources into building that kind of information and promoting ourselves. It is about identification and being able to put resources into making those arguments.

684. Ms FitzGibbon: Very often, I believe that the most convincing cases can be made by bringing other Departments together to see the work that is happening, so that they can see for themselves what the benefits are. Certainly, with the Department of Education, seeing is believing. Perhaps there are ways that the resourcing of the core product that we are selling would help us to make a better case and to win people over.

685. Mr J Kelly: To answer Mr McNarry’s question, Young at Art is fairly happy with the current funding criteria. It is a framework within which we work, and although it is not always possible to access the funds that we want, we are fairly comfortable with the remit that supports what we do. There are other smaller organisations in the sector. I know from the organisations that I have contact with, but primarily through Young at Art, that they can access small grants awards. I know that a lot of community organisations access small grants. I am not sure to what degree those grants meet their needs, but I am aware that the mechanism can work for us and for others. We are a small business; I will ask Ali to talk about competition.

686. Ms FitzGibbon: Whether the criteria should be realigned in order to look at different kinds of organisations, funding one type of organisation over another or funding artists over organisations, the difficulty is that the industry cannot be picked apart; one cannot take apart an infrastructure and tear it to pieces. You do not go to the zoo to see one kind of animal. It is the same with the arts industry — it does not work like that. As an organisation, we work in different art forms and with big organisations and individual artists. We could not function if we did not have that mix, most of which has evolved from the grass roots up, which is also the nature of the industry.

687. Mr McNarry: You also stated that it would be beneficial if the funding decisions were made on a three- to five-year basis. Do you know why the Arts Council does not seem to do that? Have you taken that up with it?

688. Mr J Kelly: Two or three years ago, the Arts Council asked for applications for the core funding that it was providing. Exchequer funding was to be allocated to regularly funded organisations on a three-year basis. So, in principle, it has started to fund in that way.

689. Mr McNarry: Sorry, did you say “regularly funded organisations"?

690. Mr J Kelly: Yes.

691. Mr McNarry: Are those pet organisations?

692. Mr J Kelly: No; they are probably organisations that have been funded for some time or that have a particular place within the arts sector. The practicalities need to be worked out. Although three-year funding is available in principle — and is presumably dependent on the amount of funding that the Arts Council gets every year — the arrangement has not worked as smoothly as we would perhaps have liked it to. We look forward to it working a bit better. The principle is good, and we would welcome funding over three years — or, if possible, over five years — but there are clearly restrictions on that.

693. Ms FitzGibbon: Many voluntary-sector organisations — and we are part of the voluntary sector as well as the creative industries — are funded in three-year cycles. Once an organisation has a proven level of benefit and impact, delivers a high level of service and high-quality work and has good management skills, we want to see the Government invest in it. That kind of multi-annual cycle is required to support such organisations. At the moment, I feel that we are constantly running to catch up every 12 months. We cannot see the commitment from Government far enough ahead to feel comfortable.

694. Mr Shannon: Thank you, Joe; it has been all of 24 hours since we met at the event that the Chairperson was at yesterday.

695. The Chairperson: The Creative Youth Partnership event.

696. Mr Shannon: Your detailed submission, which is very helpful, mentions innovative sources of funding. You also refer to the fact that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) developed partnerships with other Departments in the past, and to the interdepartmental strategy on creativity. What action do you think that DCAL should be taking in that regard? What can DCAL do to help?

697. Lord Browne: Thank you for your very informative submission, in which you express concerns about how the community festivals fund is delivered. DCAL handed over administration of the fund to the local councils in April 2008. How do you think the new arrangement is working? It is it a better arrangement, and do you see any ways in which it could be improved? Are there difficulties in that some councils are perhaps not being funded as they were previously?

698. Mr J Kelly: I will deal first with the question on DCAL and partnerships. It is a matter of understanding the breadth of our sector and the ways in which it can deliver. The arguments need to be made and pursued. In the past, the Department of Education, for example, has contributed to funding within the arts sector.

699. One of the biggest challenges that we face is fully understanding how the arts serve the agendas of other Government Departments, policies and strategies: it is about resourcing and ensuring that the understanding is very clear. Once that is understood, a Department such as DCAL can look to see how it can take action. Regular meetings of an interdepartmental group would clearly allow some of those issues to be brought to the table.

700. Mr Shannon: You mentioned 21 groups from which you receive money. Most of those amounts are under £5,000, so you must be overcome with paperwork. Ali, I suspect that you have a better idea than most about innovative sources of funding.

701. Ms FitzGibbon: I have been fundraising for a very long time. About 60% of my working life is occupied by trying to work out a way of paying for the things that we imagine doing and that we believe have benefit.

702. The Chairperson: Did you say 60%?

703. Ms Fitzgibbon: Yes.

704. Mr J Kelly: There are 67 applications.

705. Ms FitzGibbon: Yes. Earlier, we had a discussion about sponsorship — because Joe is the chairman, I report to him on our activities. Our search for sponsorship for this year’s festival in May 2009 led us to have discussions with, and submit applications to, 67 different businesses in Northern Ireland to seek support from them. We secured seven sponsors, which is a fairly low return.

706. As well as experiencing economic difficulties, downturns and increased costs — that we, as a business, are also experiencing — there is a difficulty with how businesses in Northern Ireland approach sponsorship. They do not have significant marketing budgets, and they do not have an awareness of what sponsorship does or how they can use it to be cleverer about promoting themselves.

707. Businesses have commercial interests. To a certain extent, our interests are philanthropic — we want to deliver high-quality, innovative art forms to children and young people. We feel that the interests of businesses are sometimes not entirely at ease with the things from which we feel that our children should be protected. One of the biggest issues is the promotion of fast food to children and young people and whether there should be restrictions on that. There are restrictions on the kinds of businesses that we can approach to seek sponsorship: we obviously cannot approach Diageo, which has one of the largest marketing budgets, because we cannot take money from an alcohol firm. It would not make sense for the festival to be the Diageo children’s festival — it would also be illegal.

708. We have also looked into social enterprise, donations and raffles, but that takes huge amounts of time. If the business of the organisation is to deliver something, but we are spending more time trying to find the money to deliver it, something has to give somewhere.

709. Mr J Kelly: The second question was about community festivals. So much of what we tried to illustrate in our responses to the questions in the inquiry came back to the fact that we could do this, that and the other if we had a secure resource base. In one sense, with the festivals and so on, we are really not that concerned about how money comes to us — it is about getting a secure funding base. In a sense, money is money. Ali has much more experience of the practicalities.

710. Ms FitzGibbon: We cannot apply to the community festivals fund because we are not a community festival. As an organisation, we have no opinion about how the community festivals fund has been devolved to local authorities. I can see that it makes a huge amount of sense that a local authority makes decisions about the local festivals that are run by the local communities. Our question would be about the level of resourcing.

711. Mr McCartney: Joe and Ali, thank you very much for your presentation. I am interested in the funding priorities. Paragraph 9.3 of your submission states that:

“The arts industry is primarily driven by ideas derived from individuals and its content shouldn’t be defined by government priority."

712. The last sentence of that paragraph states that the best art — the things that spread worldwide or affect people — comes from grass roots up, rather than top down.

713. Your submission also says that the Committee must:

“consider what the difference between community and professional arts sector is, if there is one?"

714. Do you have a definition of community arts? Nelson asked the previous witness that same question. Has a priority sometimes been placed on funding from the top down rather than from the bottom up? In other words, are the professional arts funded better than the community arts?

715. Mr McCausland: Your submission says that every region has its own artistic personality that steers public bodies towards investment in particular art forms over others. What is Northern Ireland’s artistic personality? Do funding decisions reflect that?

716. Mr J Kelly: Mr McCartney asked about our approach to community arts. The festival works in multi-art forms. We work with people in theatre, music, the circus and visual arts. The word “ecology" is important to us. We see little difference across it because of how we use it, how we interact with it and because of the audiences that we work with. Even though internationalism is an important flavour, it is crucial to our status as a festival that we can call on thriving sectors in Northern Ireland that we do not necessarily have to import. We need that local strength. We consider that an important ecology in itself.

717. Delivering quality is a priority. Therefore, we want to use the best people — namely professional artists, such as skilled and experienced dancers — to work with our audiences. Yesterday, we heard about a dancer who came from a London stage in order to work as a freelance dancer in Fermanagh. That dancer works in prisons, with young people in care and with a wide range of groups. The professionalism and experience that such individuals bring has been crucial to the quality of our audiences’ experience. Ali has some thoughts on that issue.

718. Ms FitzGibbon: We mentioned funding from the bottom up rather than from the top down because when deciding on arts funding, consideration should be given to the creation of art by those people who create it. The priorities and growth should be driven by that rather than by a governmental priority that aims to find something that, perhaps, does not exist.

719. Certain countries in certain parts of the world are particularly well known for certain art forms, because either music, visual arts or theatre has bubbled up from under the surface. These islands have a strong history of playwrights and text-based theatre, from Shakespeare to Brian Friel and Frank McGuinness. That is an area for which this part of the world is known globally. We have become famous for many other achievements, all of which have, perhaps, been driven by the artists, who are part of a community and who work with and meet other people who go to school or college, and so on.

720. If the intention is to find something that is absent and to invest in it, it will not necessarily create good art. It might deliver on a priority, but it will not necessarily deliver the dynamism that the arts industry requires or deliver the necessary growth and development.

721. Mr J Kelly: Nelson asked about Northern Ireland’s artistic personality and whether the funding decisions reflect it. We use the arts sector to help programme our festival. We use theatre, music, dance and visual arts — however it is expressed. Many groups do that, and we want to use them. We want to use groups that are indigenous to here as much as we can. We want that quality to be there. We are very proud of the fact that we are an international festival, so we have an international contribution.

722. Ms FitzGibbon may be better able to answer the question on funding decisions. However, we are able to call on local artists to be part of our festival, and, from year to year, we are more or less successful with that. By and large, we are able to access local people who produce art that we can use across a broad cultural realm. However, it is not always easy. I do not know whether the funding is supporting that, but we want to receive more funding so that we can benefit more from what they are doing and pull that into the festival.

723. Mr McCausland: I am not clear why the artistic personality would steer public bodies towards investment in particular art forms.

724. Ms FitzGibbon: The artistic personality of Northern Ireland is made up of the people who are creating those different arts in all their diversity and richness. The people who are creating it should be the people who are driving forward funding to where it is needed, rather than the reverse.

725. Mr McCausland: Earlier, you mentioned creating or looking for something that is not there. You talked about the personality being determined by artists who exist at this point in time, and that that would have some impact on where funding was developed or directed. Is it not a basic human right for people to participate in the cultural life of the country? Therefore, if people are marginalised from, or have never engaged with, the arts, is there an onus on the arts world — and Government funding in particular — to target those people so that they are brought into that world and so that that right is acknowledged? There may be nothing there at the moment, but you must ask yourself why it is not there and how we address the situation.

726. Mr J Kelly: Absolutely; interestingly, we have worked with some communities in north Belfast and around the Waterworks. We had a brilliant event last year — it was fantastic. We were helped by the weather, but it was a great place to hold it. That kind of outreach is important to us. It is about enabling communities. Through our own funding and activities, we try to create access to what we do. We do not just ask people to come to the festival: we go out to them to help create it, and, as far as possible, place it in their area.

727. Ms FitzGibbon: We are currently working in the Shankill area with the early-years playgroups. There are 11 early-years settings in that area, and the playgroup workers did not feel that they had sufficient creative skills to support the children in the playgroups. We worked with them, and we brought in professional artists in to work with them. However, the whole endeavour has been about pump-priming their own skills and abilities, with the result that they now want to come back and work with us again. For us, it is about allowing them to grow and develop as they see fit and as they choose, but to continue to work in partnership to create a partnership of equals: we are learning about their community and their needs and that feeds into the kind of activities and events that we put on in the main festival.

728. The Chairperson: I thank Joe Kelly and Ali FitzGibbon for their engagement this morning. As David said earlier, your written submission and presentation were very helpful.

2 April 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Ms Noelle McAlinden Mr Malcolm Murchison Mr Mac Pollock

Forum for Local Government and the Arts

729. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): Good afternoon. You were originally scheduled to be here in the morning, but we have overrun slightly. Please can you introduce your team, and then give your 10-minute presentation. We will have to insist on it being 10 minutes, because we want to devote 20 minutes to questions.

730. Ms Noelle McAlinden (Forum for Local Government and the Arts): Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to make a presentation to the Committee. Mac Pollock, the vice-chairperson of the Forum for Local Government and the Arts (FLGA), is with me, as is Malcolm Murchison, who is a member of our executive committee. We are here to represent all of the executive committee, and Mr Murchison is also the chairperson of the arts managers’ group for Northern Ireland. We feel very privileged to be in such company, including the members, so thank you.

731. Members will have received a paper which outlines who we are; what we want to do in the presentation is to say a little bit about who we are, what we do, how we do it, and what contribution we feel we are making in promoting arts, culture and creativity across the Province. We have a long history of working with arts practitioners, arts managers and local elected representatives. You can see from our pen pictures that all three of us, individually and collectively, have a very personal and passionate commitment to the arts, creativity and culture across the Province, in both our personal and professional capacities, and in where and how we work.

732. I currently work as the creative expression adviser for the Western Education and Library Board. I am chairperson of the FLGA, a practicing artist, and also an arts activist as a member of the arts advisory committee for Fermanagh District Council. I also am on the board of directors of the creative learning centre in Derry — the Nerve Centre — and I also have been involved as a member of the advisory panel for Children in Need for six years.

733. Through working with the FLGA, I feel that I am much better at my job, certainly in developing the partnerships and accessing resources and expertise. I have found that this is the best way of working.

734. I want to mention one particular case study as chairperson of Creative Youth Partnerships, which is an excellent example of how we work across the Province. We work with locally elected representatives, education and library boards, and, again, with arts activists to attract the resources and expertise that we need, and also develop and promote, not just the creative industries, but the arts and their contributions in terms of health and well-being to the economy as a whole, and to our future.

735. The FLGA is committed and passionate about what it does. We have a genuine contribution to make — particularly at this time — in identifying, harnessing and networking, and creating strategic partnerships to support the Committee, the Department and others in working together for the benefit of the region, and on behalf of us all. Our submission shows what we are committed to: advocacy, networking, building capacity within the sector and developing resources. The paper considers the future of the FLGA, particularly in the light of the review of public administration. We need to be creative and resourceful and to operate strategically in the management and delivery of all our services. Creative Youth Partnerships is an example of how we do that.

736. I have copies of the publication for all of you. It cites examples from across the Province of district councils working very closely with a number of agencies. My colleagues will reinforce that with case studies, from their particular contexts, of how they have benefited from and can see the potential of this type of work.

737. The Chairperson: Thank you very much. I want to ask about local government’s role in promoting the arts under the FLGA banner. Among some members, there is a sense that there is a disparity in approach between councils, and there may be a cultural reason for that. What are the issues that face local councils in deciding how much of their budgets should be devoted to the arts and what to spend it on? What considerations would a council take on board?

738. Mr Malcolm Murchison (Forum for Local Government and the Arts): That will be a difficult question to answer; there are 26 local authorities, each of which operates in a different way. Some councils have had a long history of supporting the arts, and they have built confidence over the years. Those members who came to the meeting at Flowerfield saw the first arts centre in Northern Ireland. It was opened in 1980, and I started there in 1982. Over the years, it has increased in strength. Some councils do not place as high a value on the arts. I cannot speak for them, but that is an area of concern for all of us and for the Committee.

739. There is a range of expenditure. Some £20 million of expenditure is directed to the arts across Northern Ireland. Belfast contributes the largest share. Per capita spend ranges from £30 down to 37p in certain areas. The range is colossal. The FLGA works to support partnership working and looking at the benefits of the arts in various areas. When we go round to meet in different areas and see the activities, that is one of the things that we attempt to do.

740. The Chairperson: What does the forum do to encourage those low-spending councils to do far more? Is that your role?

741. Ms McAlinden: It is a part of our role. We try to disseminate good practice, share expertise and look at new models of working. At our recent conference, Growing Creative Communities, we looked at models outside Northern Ireland and sharing expertise with them. It is very significant to share practice across the Province and highlight the rural focus as well as the urban. There are many activists working in a keen, proactive and professional way — Mac Pollock is one of them — to raise that profile. We need to disseminate a lot of existing practice and show strategic working at a local level and the impact on the regional level as well.

742. Mr Mac Pollock (Forum for Local Government and the Arts): I am the chairman of Ballymoney arts committee. This year we have operated on a budget of £15,000. I am told that the council has decided to reduce our budget next year by one third, and we must operate with £10,000. That will impinge on our programme of music, exhibitions and funding of individuals and local groups in the area. That is compounded by the fact that a number of those events would have received financial support from the Arts Council of Northern Ireland, which is not forthcoming. It is a double-edged sword: we receive a cut from our council and also from the Arts Council of Northern Ireland.

743. I am aware that many members sitting round the table are councillors. How do councils decide how to pare down their budgets? How do they share out the cake? If I could sit down with our councillors, I would tell them that 99% of the cake should go to the arts and that they can keep 1%. I am not sure how the local councillors divvy that up in their discussions.

744. The Chairperson: I am fairly sure that I know how they would respond to that suggestion.

745. Mr McCarthy: Do you think that your organisation is, or the councils are, actively working to ensure that the people who, traditionally, would have found it difficult to access funding are being properly targeted?

746. Mr D Bradley: Mostly, the councils share their arts spend between community arts groups and professional arts groups. In Northern Ireland, roughly what percentage is spent on community arts groups and what percentage is spent on professional arts groups? Do you think that the balance is correct?

747. Ms McAlinden: I do not have that information at the moment. I know that our arts managers, in co-operation with us, are working very hard to address and target social need. We look at the importance of supporting the amateur and the activist, as well as the more professional arts activities. Certainly, some of our best practice can be cited from rural and isolated areas. Those communities have had to be particularly creative and resourceful in accessing expertise and funding. There are some really good examples of the networks that we have built and the good practices that we have shared. Those case studies show how people, with very limited budgets, have become involved in training and networking activities and in the dissemination of good practice. They have shown how models of work can be transferred across the Province.

748. Historically, if you look, for example, at festivals and the art of regeneration, a lot of sound work has been done that has an economic payoff and highlights tourism within the region. In Fermanagh, I am part of the arts advisory panel and have been involved in two recent arts festivals there. Those festivals played a huge part in bringing the community arts tradition together with the more professional arts groups. Opportunities were identified for both sectors to work together, along with funders and those that have access to expertise, to raise everybody’s aspirations.

749. Mr Pollock: On Saturday, three local drama festivals will have their final nights. As you know, there is the Mid Ulster Drama Festival in Carrickmore; I was at one of its performances on Tuesday night.

750. The Chairperson: I was there too.

751. Mr Pollock: The 11 drama festivals in Northern Ireland are organised by amateurs. However, they are professional in their approach and their organisational skills. In the present climate, it is difficult to attract sponsorship from local businesses. Indeed, some local councils do not give any financial support.

752. You asked about the split between professionals and amateurs. Every year, from the drama festival finals, we provide scholarships for four or five people to attend places such as the Central School of Speech and Drama in London, Gormanston, etc. Liam Neeson started his career in the Slemish Players in Ballymena; James Nesbitt started as part of a youth group that was attached to the Riverside Theatre in Coleraine, along with his colleague, Mark Carruthers. Look at the opportunity that that gave them. Although there is a distinction between amateur and professional, you have to remember that a lot of amateur work leads to professional work. Those professionals then come back to perform in local theatres.

753. That leads me on to the issue of whether or not the regional theatres will survive given that all Arts Council and lottery funding has been withdrawn. Drama festivals are suffering; in the future, with higher charges for theatres, will amateurs be able to hire them?

754. Mr McCartney: My question follows on from the last question. Ms McAlinden, I see that you describe yourself as an arts activist. That is the first time that I had heard that term, and I heard it again in your presentation. The inquiry has taken evidence from representatives of the arts, and Mr Pollock talked about professional arts and amateur arts. Some people also talk about community-based arts. What is the definition of “community arts"?

755. Mr McCausland: You mentioned the huge variation in spend, from £30 to 37p. Is there a correlation between certain councils and low spend? There is a perception among some of us that there tends to be a lower spend in unionist-controlled councils and a higher spend in nationalist-controlled councils, but that is not a universal rule. Do your figures support that? If so, what can be done about it?

756. You said that you were concerned about the low spend in some areas. I appreciate that, but what practically can be done to make it clear to councillors that there is a benefit in supporting the arts? Why do they not support them?

757. Ms McAlinden: We recognise that arts and cultural activity are suffering a dire funding crisis at the moment, and we are committed and passionate about the fact that we need to address that. However, more importantly, we recognise that your role in influencing other Departments is crucial, because we have already seen, through a number of case studies, that the impact on health and well-being of the employability and the promotion of the creative industries is key to what we do, and that needs to be shared with other councils. We have made some inroads there, but we recognise that the funding pot is limited.

758. The take-up and nature of the creative activity needs to be reviewed. We are actively involved in promoting what we do, through our lobbying and advocacy roles, as well as in our arts activists’ roles, and we are conscious that we have to change the hearts and minds of people who do not necessarily see the value in that type of activity, or perhaps have never experienced that type of activity. Therefore, that is what we are trying to address, and we have tried to do it from a schools perspective, from a community perspective and from a voluntary perspective.

759. There is a lot to be done to influence the people who have the power and the control, and part of our lobbying and showcasing involves letting elected representatives see the nature, scale and scope of what we do, from the very rural setting of the little church hall, to the school assembly hall, to the highbrow fully designated arts centre. We pride ourselves in trying to address areas where we feel there is inactivity, and we realise that there is a lot of work to be done there.

760. With regard to the question in relation to activists, there are three crucial strands in the make-up of the FLGA. First, there is the arts managers’ group, which plays a crucial part in working and connecting community artists and the arts with elected representatives. Secondly, there are the elected councillors, and, thirdly, there are the arts activists. Mr Pollock and I are arts activists, in that we are actively engaged in a voluntary capacity, supporting what we do, but we are also committed in our professional lives. An arts activist can be someone who gives their time to support arts activity in their area.

761. Community arts also have a huge impact on health and well-being. We can provide you with other examples, but I am conscious of the time.

762. Mr Murchison: I do not recognise a political division between the big spenders and the low spenders. However, it is notable that the larger councils are often in a position to spend more, and, sometimes, the more rural and very small councils struggle to spend very much at all.

763. Mr McCausland: What are the figures per head?

764. Mr Murchison: The Arts Council collects figures every two years. I will happily pass a copy of those figures to the Committee, as they reveal the spending per council, per capita, etc.

765. Mr McCausland: What are the six lowest councils per capita?

766. Mr Murchison: In 2006-07, the six lowest councils, working from the lowest council up, were Magherafelt, Castlereagh, Larne, Carrickfergus, Limavady and Banbridge.

767. Mr McCarthy: Where is Ards Borough Council on that list?

768. Mr Murchison: Ards Borough Council is eighth on the list.

769. Mr Pollock: The other question that we are looking at is the difference in spend among local councils. I would like to highlight the fact that, in Northern Ireland, per capita spend on the arts for 2008-09 was £7·58, compared with Scotland’s £14·04. Perhaps we need to look at how per capita spend here can become more equal with that of other countries.

770. I have a feeling — particularly given what happened at Ballymoney Borough Council’s arts committee, on which I sit — that instead of becoming more equal, the differences in per capita spend will grow. Consider the European Union and our nearest neighbour, the Republic of Ireland, where per capita spend on the arts is €17·92. There is quite a job of work to be done, not only at council level but throughout the Province.

771. Mr Brolly: A witness who contributed previously to the Committee’s inquiry pointed out that the economic value of the arts is not a visible thing and that that is something that should be researched more. The reason that it might be important for you to do something about this is that, fundamentally, local councils look at the greater economy and the functional things. Obviously, they have the difficult job of striking an annual rate. It is quite likely that they will not appreciate the value of artistic things; they are likely to leave the arts to the tail end of their spending.

772. Mr Pollock: There is an opportunity and a possibility for the arts and tourism to work well together. I again refer to my involvement in amateur dramatics. In July, the British Final Festival of One Act Plays will come to Enniskillen. Representative groups from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will be there for the weekend. It is a great opportunity to sell that particular part of Northern Ireland and to encourage people to see the scenery. It is an opportunity for the arts and tourism to work together.

773. I hope that Fermanagh District Council will recognise that and give us a bit of financial support. On the business side, one of the sponsors which usually supports us when the festival comes here once every four years has said that it cannot give us the £1,000 sponsorship that it normally would. Therefore, that is an opportunity for local councils to get something out of the arts.

774. Mr Brolly: I appreciate what you are saying. However, the problem is that councils only respond to a specific event that might make a few pounds. For example, Limavady Borough Council gave money to an event that was held recently in Ballykelly and to another event for Eoghan Quigg. You should persuade councils to constantly and consistently spend money on the arts, so that there is a pool of money, even for the smaller things.

775. Ms McAlinden: As regards the creative industries, I know that Mr Murchison made some references to the growth and impact —

776. Mr Brolly: I am aware of Flowerfield arts centre, and I am sure that Mr Murchison would like to be able to charge much less for the services that are provided there and to have much more subsidy from Coleraine Borough Council. Do you agree with that?

777. Mr Murchison: We in the FLGA are all passionate about the arts. We are all pushing for increased spend on the arts. The worry is that there appears to be a downward trend. The figures that the Arts Council collected from the Department of the Environment show that between 2005-06 and 2006- 07 there was a 14% decrease in spending by local authorities.

778. Due to financial pressures, the Arts Council of Northern Ireland has given local authorities a low priority. Essentially, grants that we have got in previous years are gone. Typically, we used to get approximately £18,000 per annum, but that money is not available any more. Some £10,000 for a festival was cut from Flowerfield’s budget.

779. Our funding has been cut by approximately £30,000. Typically, we engage artists at a cost of £150 a day, so that is equivalent to 200 fewer days per annum when those artists can go out and engage with communities, young people and children. A few days ago, we had workshops in Flowerfield with a couple of primary schools, and we were told that the curriculum in those schools does not involve any art in the classroom. The schoolchildren had a wonderful experience with us, and they met artists who were able to show them practices that could not possibly be delivered in a school situation.

780. We are very concerned about the current financial situation. There are wonderful opportunities out there, and we need every assistance in pushing to have the spend on arts increased across the sector.

781. Lord Browne: I am sure that you recognise that, given the current economic environment, we are facing very difficult times. What is the forum’s view on how the Arts Council distributes its funding?

782. My second question may be more difficult to answer and a bit unfair to ask. Is there any way in which you could quantify the monetary value of the arts in the Northern Ireland economy? I am particularly interested in how you regard the actual distribution of the funding from the Arts Council.

783. Mr Murchison: There is always good and bad. Northern Ireland has benefited enormously from Arts Council support and funding, with the new arts facilities that have opened in recent years. Obviously, when an organisation is successful in an application, it is pleased; when it is not successful in an application, it may not be so pleased. That is the way of it.

784. I notice that the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts has said that the creative industries are predicted to be a major high-growth contributor to the UK economy in the next five years. That information was published on 9 March, so its facts are up to date. That organisation says that, on average, creative industries are set to grow by 4%, which is more than double the rate of the rest of the economy. By 2013, the number of creative businesses is likely to have risen from 157,000 to 180,000, with employment of 1·3 million people, thus outstripping the financial sector. We strongly believe in the importance of the creative sector; it is an area that needs investment.

785. Ms McAlinden: We are working across different education sectors, with bodies such as universities, and we are also working with the district councils. With the help of the Department, the Arts Council, the education and library boards and the district councils, in the last four years we have collectively ensured that over 70,000 young people have been involved in creative and culturally rich arts and educationally stimulating activity.

786. We have given employment to over 180 artists who are on our database and who are living and working in Northern Ireland. Without a strategic vision, collective commitment, consensus and acknowledgement of the sort of work that we do and the economic and health benefits of that, we will end up losing our most creative and resourceful people. That will have an impact on our education system, including universities and teacher training, as well as other opportunities. We simply will not have the environment to grow and attract the people who we need, particularly at this time when we need colour and vibrancy, and not in a superficial way. I am referring to scientists and entrepreneurs; that is, creative, highly intellectual property that we need to harness, develop and grow.

787. The Chairperson: Does the forum have a formal view on how the Arts Council disburses its funding? Does the forum have any critical views of it, or is it content?

788. Ms McAlinden: We have worked very closely in partnership with the Arts Council and have been informed by its policy-making. The FLGA originally came out of a regional committee that was set up by the Arts Council so that it could liaise with the district councils. However, we are very much aware that Arts Council funding has a huge impact on our local councils, almost to a crippling extent.

789. For example, we know that jobs will be lost; there is absolutely no doubt about that. The work of the Arts Council has an impact on the contribution of the arts to education and on the growth of our creative industries, yet the people in those sectors are the key people that we should be focusing on. We need new ideas and innovation, particularly as this is the year of creativity and innovation.

790. In the past, the Department has played a strategic role in looking at ways that we can work together. There is great opportunity now to revisit the Unlocking Creativity strategy that four Government Departments — Enterprise, Trade and Investment; Employment and Learning; Culture, Arts and Leisure; and Education — signed up to, so that we can look at other ways of working. Really sound, substantial and robust partnerships have developed and evolved from that strategy, and I know that, individually and collectively, the groups and organisations that we work with are all the stronger for that commitment and collaboration. It is the only way forward.

791. The Chairperson: I thank the representatives from the Forum for Local Government and the Arts for their submissions — written and oral — and for allowing members to ask their questions.

2 April 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Ms Joanne South Ms Mary Trainor Ms Lesley Wake

Arts and Business Northern Ireland

792. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome Mary Trainor, Lesley Wake and Joanne South from Arts and Business, who will make a presentation to the Committee.

793. Ms Mary Trainor (Arts and Business Northern Ireland): Arts and Business welcomes the opportunity to give the Committee an oral submission; thank you very much for calling us. My colleagues from our head office in London are Lesley Wake, who is our director of operations, and Joanne South, our research manager. I have been the director at Arts and Business for 10 months. Prior to that, I worked for over 13 years in Northern Ireland, marketing and fund-raising for many of Northern Ireland’s arts and cultural organisations, including the Ulster Orchestra, the Lyric Theatre, the Grand Opera House and the Belfast Civic Arts Theatre.

794. Arts and Business is a UK-wide creative network that advocates and facilitates creative partnerships between the private and cultural sectors. It was established 30 years ago and has 11 offices across the UK. Our Northern Ireland office opened in 1987. Prior to April 2008, we were part-funded by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, and now we are part-funded by the Arts Council of Northern Ireland. It is worth noting that our remit covers the performing arts, literature, visual arts and crafts, museums, libraries, heritage and film. In Northern Ireland, we have 80 arts members and 83 business members.

795. Arts and Business defines private investment as business sponsorship, individual giving, and trusts and foundations. We advocate on behalf of the arts sector to the business community, and we work to increase skills and confidence within the sector by our various training and support programmes, which include support on sponsorship training, individual giving, and strengthening good governance and fund-raising principles on the boards of cultural organisations. With regard to your inquiry, our written submission focused on our area of expertise, which is primarily your second term of reference, which looks at innovative approaches to sourcing additional funding.

796. Funding for the arts comes from a mixture of private and public sources. Each year the Arts and Business private investment in culture survey measures private investment in the arts and culture sector in the UK; it covers museums and heritage as well as arts. According to respondents from our 2007-08 survey, which covers the period March 2007 to April 2008, private-sector investment accounted for an average of 13% of arts organisations’ total income — in Northern Ireland, that figure was 10·9%.

797. Across the UK, private investment in culture is at its highest, climbing by 12% on the 2006-07 figure to £686 million. In Northern Ireland, it increased by 3% to £8·53 million, which is 1·2% of the UK figure. An increase in Northern Ireland’s private investment support is positive as, in many regions, support declined. In Scotland, it declined by 9·4%. However, it is worth noting that the increase in Northern Ireland can be attributed to a few organisations receiving substantial donations against capital campaigns, and that private investment figures fluctuate, depending on cycles linked to project timelines.

798. Results show that private business investment, within the overall figure, has declined across the UK. It has declined by 7% since 2006-07; in Northern Ireland it has declined by 8·9%. In Northern Ireland, business investment equates to a higher percentage of the total private investment. For example, in Northern Ireland, support is 47% of total private investment from businesses, but in the UK it is 24%. That highlights the fact that in Northern Ireland, support from individual giving and trusts and foundations is lower than in other regions. Across the UK, individual giving accounts for 56% of total private investment, but in Northern Ireland it is 26%.

799. It is worth praising the creativity and success shown in the culture sector in Northern Ireland in sourcing business sponsorship. It is also worth highlighting that that comes despite the limited number of full-time fund-raisers. Less than 5% of our arts members have dedicated full-time fund-raising staff. Typically, in Northern Ireland, most fund-raisers in arts organisations are also responsible for marketing.

800. The partnerships funded last year through the Arts and Business reach investment programme are excellent examples of how the arts sector is engaging, retaining and developing current and new sponsors in a creative way. Arts and Business funded 50 projects last year through its investment programme, making a total investment of £209,000, against a business sponsorship figure of £960,000. That is leveraging £5 for every £1 that we have supported through that programme.

801. That said, the economic climate is obviously presenting the culture sector with immense challenges. Certainly, the sector cannot remain immune to a global recession. Our research has indicated that business investment will continue to decrease in 2009, and will decrease further in 2010. However, as GDP increases, the confidence in investment will return. With a reduction in private giving imminent, Arts and Business will be working with the sector to improve its skills in seeking sponsorship, to encourage it to maintain long-term relationships with its donors, sponsors and audiences, and to cultivate potential future investors. Really, the sector must work to be in a position of strength for when the turmoil subsides.

802. Our message to the sector is to hold its nerve during the economic downturn, and to tap into resources beyond the cheque. For example, in Northern Ireland, around 10% of support from the business community is in kind. The arts sector must provide the business sector with a tangible return on investment, and must promote the message that the arts can offer creative ways to address business objectives. Now, more than ever, is the time to be creative and innovative.

803. It is not all doom and gloom with regard to business investment in Northern Ireland. Many businesses are signing up to new sponsorships and seeing the real business benefits in supporting the arts. Regardless of the cultural climate, we have to equip the arts sector with the confidence and skills to build long-term relationships. It takes two years for those types of partnerships to fully prosper. We need to redefine the expertise in the sector and ensure that there is the knowledge and market analysis to maximise opportunities.

804. There is, undoubtedly, room for increasing the level of philanthropic support for the arts in Northern Ireland. As I mentioned, across the UK, investment from individuals accounts for 56% of total investment. In Northern Ireland, it is 26%. In every other region, investment from individuals is increasing; however, we are not quite at that level. High-net-worth individuals are willing to fund the arts; however, they are not doing so to the same level as other sectors. A Venture Philanthropy report, looking at philanthropy and the arts, concluded that individual giving is a very personal and private issue in Northern Ireland. It is very much about personal relationships: people give to things and people that they know.

805. Last September, our arts sector consultation identified a skills gap in the sector and a lack of confidence as to how to ask for investment, and ask in the right way without alienating audiences. The Venture Philanthropy report noted that potential donors look to the strength of governance and business planning within arts organisations. The profile of the need for arts philanthropy must be raised. Last year, Arts and Business initiated the Prince of Wales medals for arts philanthropy. We were delighted that Dr Martin Naughton, an arts philanthropist from Ireland, made a £1 million donation to the Lyric Theatre and has supported the Naughton Gallery. It was great to acknowledge him in that way. Those initiatives are crucial in encouraging philanthropy to the arts, and the Government and the media have a role to play in helping to promote them.

806. It is important to note that philanthropy is not just about large donations from wealthy individuals. There is a lot to be gained from engaging support from audiences at a mid to low level. Audiences have an emotional attachment to the arts and the sector is very well placed to capitalise on that. Art and Business will be working with the sector in Northern Ireland to increase that engagement and to assist it in building the necessary skills and confidence. The current economic climate is likely to have an affect on philanthropic giving. However, now is an ideal time to work on increasing the skills of arts organisations and for them to work on cultivating and building long-term relationships.

807. In Northern Ireland, there is potential for extra income from gift aid; many opportunities for gift aid go unclaimed. We will be working to help promote that in the sector. As I said, there is definitely an opportunity around trusts and foundations. The key factor in that regard is the lack of staff in Northern Ireland and the lack of time. It takes time to research trust and foundation applications; however, the rewards can be very high. Again, we will be running information sessions for the sector on that.

808. Another core element of our work, and an important factor in increasing income from private investment, is the role of cultural boards and strong governance. Arts organisations are businesses, and therefore need sound business principles and strategies. Arts and Business will be working in strategic partnership with the Arts Council of Northern Ireland to strengthen governance and business planning on the boards of arts organisations.

809. A successful fund-raising strategy requires buy-in and commitment, from the top of an organisation down. Potential investors like to see public investment in an organisation. One of the programmes that we run to help with governance is a board development day, in which we bring in a business facilitator to help with business planning. We also help to place businesspeople on cultural arts boards.

810. Given its limited resources, development staff and skills, the Northern Ireland arts sector is working hard to engage the business community. There are many success stories and examples. There is potential for growth — particularly in the areas of individual giving and trusts. The sector needs more resources, development staff, training and time. There are no quick wins in professional fund-raising. Organisations need to buy in from the top down, and there needs to be a hybrid of public and private investment; business donors look for that.

811. Of course, the difficult economic climate presents challenges. However, the arts can offer huge business benefits at this time. In tough times, survival comes from innovation and creativity. Business wants innovation and creativity, which the arts can unlock and deliver. Now is the time to advocate, train and create skills in the sector and to cultivate and build relationships with current and future sponsors and donors. Through our advocacy, training and support programmes, our market analysis and best-practice models, Arts and Business will continue to be the engine that drives progress.

812. Mr McCarthy: You said that you have 11 offices throughout the UK and, therefore, a lot of experience in attracting support from the business community. Compared with other regions of the UK, what specific challenges do Northern Irish arts organisations face?

813. Lord Browne: I am a great believer that the arts sector should pursue more funding from private sources, and I am pleased that your organisation does that. I know that 60% of arts funding comes from the public purse and approximately 10% from private sources. However, your submission outlines that individual giving in Northern Ireland accounts for only 26% of the total funding, whereas it accounts for about 56% — more than double — in the rest of the United Kingdom. Why is individual giving so much lower in Northern Ireland? Are you doing anything to address that situation?

814. Ms Trainor: As Lord Browne said, the challenge for Northern Ireland centres around the giving of individuals, trusts and foundations. There is much more potential. However, given that there are no full-time development staff, it is a resource issue. It takes time to cultivate and service sponsor relationships with the business community. I have worked at the coalface doing those jobs, and in marketing, and I know that time is the major factor. Many arts organisations recognise the huge potential but are frustrated that they cannot capitalise on it because of time and resource restrictions. That is a key issue.

815. Mr McCarthy: More hard work is needed.

816. Ms Trainor: Absolutely, but additional staff are required, too. In England, many arts organisations have dedicated development functions. However, less than 5% of our arts organisations have dedicated fund-raisers. That is a massive problem.

817. Lord Browne asked what Arts and Business is doing to increase individual giving. The consultation that we conducted with the whole arts sector in September 2008 highlighted a lack of confidence, training and skills. Many organisations are nervous about alienating their audiences by asking for money. Our first step must be to establish training programmes. We ran a programme a couple of weeks ago in Northern Ireland; we brought in somebody from a trust and foundation to talk to the arts community. We hope to organise more dedicated individual-giving training programmes.

818. In the next couple of months, the UK website will be relaunched; it will include a full fund-raiser’s toolkit and a facility to blog, sharing information and ideas with other fund-raisers. Those facilities will help fund-raisers and give them confidence.

819. Lord Browne: Do you think that because the arts receive 60% of their funding from the public purse, they are a little bit complacent about seeking money from other sources?

820. Ms Trainor: I absolutely do not. Having worked for many Northern Ireland arts organisations, I can assure you that they proactively seek such funding, and that is why I emphasised business relationships. We will leave a list of all the projects that we have funded through our investment programmes. Some of those projects demonstrate real creativity, including fabulous examples of how people are thinking out of the box in order to engage businesses.

821. Ms Lesley Wake (Arts and Business Northern Ireland): Private investment income for the arts in Northern Ireland stands at £4·83 per capita. In similar regions in England, for example, in the east, the per-capita figure is £2·36; in the south-west, it is £2·56; and in Yorkshire, it is £2·92. Therefore, the picture in some parts of England is not as rosy as it might seem — more than 80%, the lion’s share, of the UK total for individual giving comes from London-based national institutions. Therefore, when comparing regions with Northern Ireland, we find a strong correlation.

822. Mr P Ramsey: The presentation was very good; it will help considerably with our inquiry. For the record, the Millennium Forum, in which I have already declared an interest, could not survive without commercial sponsorship, particularly the deal with Firmus Energy, which has been tremendously successful in encouraging young people who would not normally have the opportunity to access and participate in the arts.

823. What types of arts organisations in Northern Ireland have been most successful in obtaining private-sector funding, and to what can you attribute that success? How can other community-based arts organisations best access those opportunities?

824. Mr Shannon: Although Northern Ireland people might be behind in individual giving to the arts, they are very much ahead when it comes to charitable giving. People in Northern Ireland give a lot more per capita than many other parts of the United Kingdom. Perhaps, when it comes to personal giving, people’s focus is on charity. However, you are considering how big business can contribute, and I must say that I am impressed by the level of contact that there is and by the amount of money given.

825. In your submission, you mentioned that you are seeking more evidence-based research into the social and economic impact of the arts. The real reason why businesses give to the arts is not to target social need or to meet an economic strategy, but to satisfy an individual or corporate interest. Is that not so?

826. Ms Trainor: It is a fair point that people in Northern Ireland give more to the charitable sector, which indicates that the potential for individual giving exists here and that we in the arts might not be making the case for the need for and benefits of arts philanthropy as well as we could.

827. With respect to why the business community gives money, it certainly looks for a return on its investment. In addition, the public-relations impact and press coverage of arts sponsorship is important to demonstrate a business’s corporate social responsibility. Arts and Business is working to help arts organisations and businesses to evaluate their sponsorship arrangements and to make that case.

828. However, if there is more evidence to back up the fact that the arts have those social and economic impacts, it may inspire philanthropy from the public. From a business point of view, the main issue is very much business benefit, and many businesses are seeing that. It is quite encouraging that, in the last month, several businesses have signed up to some very high-profile new sponsorships. For example, BT has just agreed to a £35,000 sponsorship with Queen’s Film Theatre, and it is also providing £35,000 of in-kind support for a marketing audit and a whole new marketing strategy. That is a new sponsorship.

829. I had a meeting last week with representatives from Barclays Bank, who said that their company was a confident brand and would be keeping its head above the parapet to remain high profile. Such companies are seeing the business benefits of engaging with the arts. Representatives from one bank told me that they needed to know how to make their company look human again. They know that the arts can help to do that, and staff morale was extremely low. We are working on some ideas on that.

830. Those are examples of businesses that are seeing the business benefit of involvement with the arts. Having evidence of the impact of involvement with the arts would help arts organisations to gain a mixture of funding.

831. Mr Shannon: You are saying that the two issues should be married. The interest of individual businesses is what drives sponsorship of the arts, and it is important to try to tie that in with targeting social need.

832. Ms Trainor: If you can do that, you are on to a winner.

833. Mr Ramsey asked what types of arts organisations in Northern Ireland are being funded. Fifty per cent of business support in Northern Ireland is linked to theatre and 12% is linked to music, which is indicative of a number of things. The theatre sector and particularly the music sector, such as the Ulster Orchestra and some of the bigger theatres like the Grand Opera House, are working hard, are making the case, perhaps have more staff than other sectors — although not that many more — and have a very focused approach to fund-raising.

834. Another key factor is that businesses like to sponsor populist art forms. One of the challenges that I faced in fund-raising in the theatre sector was that businesses wanted to sponsor pantomimes and popular musicals. That is largely because of corporate entertaining; companies want to bring customers to an event and make sure that they know the product and do not feel alienated. So, much sponsorship goes to very popular art forms, which presents a challenge when you are trying to get sponsorship for drama and unknown art forms.

835. At the minute, there is a slight problem for a lot of the arts organisations, because a lot of businesses do not want to be seen to be corporate entertaining, particularly if they are making staff redundant. Businesses are pulling back on corporate entertaining at rugby matches and other sporting events and are increasingly turning to the corporate social responsibility agenda. Therefore, it is up to the arts to be creative about how they pitch their proposals with that in mind.

836. The marketplace is also important. The heritage and museum sector is top of the list for sponsorship in the UK, but that includes a lot of the big sponsorships for the London museums and galleries, which skew the figures. Therefore, we really have to look at our marketplace to find the opportunities for the business sector at the minute.

837. Does that mean doom and gloom for community groups? Absolutely not. A lot of our sponsorship mix comes from across Northern Ireland. The Alley arts and conference centre in Strabane won our arts award this year, because it is doing amazingly creative things with some of its business partners. For example, REMAX estate agents brought in a photographer to help sell its houses in a more creative way. The company also brought in a scriptwriter to help with sales pitches, so it was using the arts really creatively. We also worked with Craft Recruitment, which trains joiners. Staff from Craft Recruitment helped to build the set for the Alley centre’s pantomime.

838. There is a lot of potential — particularly in community areas — to engage with communities and businesses in those regions. With the right skills, training and resources, arts organisations and community organisations can still get a return.

839. The Chairperson: I ask members to be brief. There are five more questions, and about five more minutes have been allocated. We will obviously have to go over that.

840. Mr McCartney: I have a couple of brief questions about the reach investment programme. Is the money an agreement between the sponsor and the arts facility, or is it allocated centrally?

841. Ms Trainor: Our budget is provided by the Arts Council. We get £455,000, of which £230,000 goes back out through that programme. We promote and explain the open-application process to our arts members because the rationale behind that funding is to strengthen partnerships and to deepen and embed relationships. The arts organisations and the businesses jointly complete the applications. Sometimes we hold meetings to inspire ideas and to help forge relationships. Those applications then come to an Arts and Business panel and we make judgements on them. We use a set of criteria to ensure that the applications address what we need them to.

842. We try to have a regional spread in relation to the way that we allocate the money. Part of our internal target is to try and encourage applications from outside Belfast and to encourage projects that are about diversity and other issues.

843. Mr McCartney: Is there difficulty in the regional spread —

844. The Chairperson: Raymond, I ask you to put your question in such a way that Nelson can group his with yours. You have a unique, innovative style.

845. Mr McCartney: I noticed that there were four applications from Derry. Is there a particular reason for that?

846. Mr McCausland: What do arts organisations pay for membership?

847. Ms Trainor: They pay £70.

848. Mr McCausland: No matter what size of an organisation they are?

849. Ms Trainor: If they want about five members of their staff to benefit from our programmes, the fee is £90. I think that about 80% of our members pay £70.

850. Mr McCausland: A lot of businesses here are local branches of national businesses, which may keep their budget for sponsorship more centralised. Sometimes they argue that they have no money locally because their budget is decided in an office in London. Is that an issue that only affects Northern Ireland, or does it affect other regions? How much substance is there to that?

851. Ms Trainor: I certainly think that the spread of budgets is a factor. Perhaps my colleagues can speak on behalf of the UK. I do not think that it completely inhibits sponsorship — there is still a lot of potential with the right resources, but it is certainly an issue. More recently, we have noticed that budgets for Northern Ireland have moved to Dublin. Many of the banks, such as Ulster Bank, are trying to mirror what they do in the North with what they do in the South. Some of the drinks companies did exactly the same. There is an element of both, and it is probably the same in every region.

852. Ms Wake: It is an issue. It is something that we seek to manage. While the decisions may be taken in London, the negotiations often happen here in Northern Ireland. PricewaterhouseCoopers is a national member of Arts and Business, but Ms Trainor and her team in Belfast negotiate the PricewaterhouseCoopers Northern Ireland budget. It is paid from London, but the decision-making is done here. We encourage our national members to work across all parts of the UK. It is the same in Scotland. Invariably, it is different when the headquarters of a business is in another part of the UK, but we encourage the adoption of the same method.

853. Ms Trainor: We made a point of going up to Derry as part of our arts consultation. There was a really high turnout there, and about 10 arts organisations came to meet us. We were working proactively to help the sector in the Derry area, and our arts manager has dedicated a lot of time to that region. It is a matter of our being proactive, going out and focusing on particular regions.

854. Mr McNarry: I congratulate you on the work that you do; I can see that it makes a good contribution. Do you expect any withdrawals from sponsorship programmes due to financial problems? Have you received any feedback or assessed the effect that the recession may have on your sponsors? Only one major supermarket is on your list of business partners, and, indeed, its involvement is minimal. Why are the other major supermarkets not engaged in Northern Ireland?

855. Mr Brolly: I want to know more about the mechanics of your operation. Where does the process start? Do arts organisations, such as the Alley Theatre in Strabane, come and ask you to secure funding from the private sector? How exactly does it work? It is your organisation that pays the piper; what influence do you have on the operation of the Arts Council?

856. Ms Trainor: The primary example of withdrawal of sponsorship concerns the Ulster Orchestra. The orchestra has been badly hit because a lot of its sponsorship was linked to financial services and banking. Indeed, Ulster Bank has pulled almost £55,000 worth of sponsorship from the orchestra. I appreciate the impact that that will have, because I was the head of marketing with the Ulster Orchestra. Ulster Bank has retained its substantial sponsorship of the Belfast Festival at Queen’s, but it has had to refocus its budget. Unfortunately, a lot of the orchestra’s sponsorship involved corporate entertainment at concerts, and Ulster Bank has also had to pull back from much of its rugby sponsorship.

857. Mr McNarry also asked about the effect of the recession. There are still a lot of good news stories, and we are really encouraged that several businesses have signed up. BT and Barclays Bank are continuing with their sponsorship, Carson McDowell has just renewed high-level sponsorship of the Art College’s end-of-year show, and Allianz has also renewed high-level sponsorship recently. The business sector is making its budgets work harder, being a lot more focused and moving away from corporate entertaining. Some people, therefore, are going to take a hit. However, there are still opportunities, and we are advocating the message that people have to be more innovative in order to stand out from their competitors; the arts can help that.

858. Ms Joanne South (Arts and Business Northern Ireland): We have had conversations with businesses across the UK about their confidence in, and attitudes to, investing in the arts. They have clearly said that, over the next two years or so, it will be tough to find the budgets required for cash sponsorship. Obviously, that will have an impact on many organisations. However, on the flip side, a number of organisations are telling us how important marketing and branding are at the current time and that they will continue to invest in that.

859. The cash sums involved may not be as huge as they were previously. However, there is still money out there, and people are as keen to achieve their objectives as they were before. In-kind sponsorship is also going to be very important as purse strings tighten. Indeed, in-kind sponsorship has slightly increased this year across the UK. That is a potential growth area, particularly over the next 24 months. It is a resource that people have and are prepared to give.

860. Ms Trainor: Mr McNarry made a good point about supermarkets; the only supermarket that I know to be engaged with the arts in Northern Ireland is Tesco.

861. Mr McNarry: I am not allowed to advertise here. [Laughter.]

862. Ms Trainor: Rather than having an arts strategy, Tesco focuses on music and education. It sponsors the orchestra’s — [Interruption.]

863. Mr McNarry: Jim is phoning Sainsbury’s.

864. Ms Trainor: Tesco sponsors the orchestra’s education programme and Camerata Ireland’s young musicians’ programme. We will have to do our bit to rally support from supermarkets.

865. Ms Wake: Supermarkets across these islands present a challenge; their profit margins are screwed so far down because of their competition. The unnamed supermarket that Ms Trainor mentioned a moment ago does not sponsor anything at all in England, so Northern Ireland is lucky. Well done.

866. Mr McNarry: If they do not have the cash, could they perhaps be encouraged to do something in kind?

867. Ms Trainor: Absolutely; Ms South talked about in-kind support and cited BT as an example. The Ulster Bank also gives massive in-kind marketing support to the Belfast Festival at Queen’s. We will follow up on that form of sponsorship.

868. Mr Brolly asked about where we start and the mechanics of how we operate. Our work is divided into three core areas, the first of which is capacity-building, which involves training. The second area is advocacy, which involves going out to the business community. We do a lot of work with the Institute of Directors and the chambers of commerce. We try to spread the word about advocacy, and we encourage the sharing of best practice in business publications. The final part of our work is trying to find ways to bring arts and business together. Our investment programme is a good example of how we, as the organisation in the middle, try to connect the two. We also run many events for businesses, and I am keen to hold more events this year at which arts people get to meet and connect with businesspeople, which is a bit like speed dating.

869. In trying to help the arts, our starting point is training. We have an arts development forum that enables all our arts members to get together several times a year at information sessions and seminars. Our arts manager also goes out to meet members on a one-to-one basis. By joining the forum, they get access to us whenever necessary. We go out and sit down with them, look at their sponsorship challenges and opportunities, and help them to pull together proposals. It is a matter of engaging with all our members.

870. I mentioned the importance of strong governance and business planning, and we have an extremely positive relationship with the strategic planning and business development teams of the Arts Council. We work on a menu of support through the board development days that I mentioned. We bring in a businessperson to sit down with a full arts board and help them with strategic planning and writing a fundraising strategy. We also try to persuade businesspeople to sit on arts boards. We work particularly closely with the Arts Council on that, and it also supports us on the individual giving programme. The massive skills gap means that we need more investment to provide more training.

871. Mr Brolly: Fundamentally, do you fail or succeed depending on how much money you can wheedle from business?

872. Ms Wake: That is a tricky question because we are market-makers rather than fund-raisers. We measure our impact —

873. Mr Brolly: You have meetings with corporate business, and the idea is to soften them up.

874. Ms Trainor: That is absolutely right.

875. Ms Wake: Unlike a small independent arts organisation, we can get to the chairmen and chief executives of the major businesses.

876. Mr Brolly: Do you ask for funding, or do you direct an area of the arts towards potential funders?

877. Ms Trainor: A bit of both, actually. I will give you a really good example; yesterday we had a meeting with Translink, which is facing a lot of challenging business issues at the moment in relation to bullying on trains and school buses, and is producing a whole new business strategy. The company requested a meeting with our organisation to get our advice on how the arts can fit into its strategy and how the arts can help it. Because we are in tune with the menu of availability from the arts sector, we can help to connect the company. That is what we will be doing.

878. Mr D Bradley: I apologise for being late. What action have you taken to make your organisation known outside Belfast, particularly among amateur groups? It seems that you mainly engage with professional or semi-professional groups, with some exceptions. Will you also outline some examples of in-kind sponsorship?

879. Ms Trainor: I mentioned earlier that we made a point of taking the arts consultation outside Belfast. We spoke to arts organisations in Derry and invited them all to come along to that session. Our relationship with the Arts Council may help with that, because it has connections with the full spectrum of arts organisations. We are being careful to include heritage and museums in that consultation as well, through working with some of the umbrella groups like the Museums Council. I have been to a few meetings there, and sit on its marketing advisory committee at the moment. We want to spread those tentacles in whatever way we can. Those are the main ways that we are doing so at the moment.

880. The Chairperson: There is life outside Belfast and Derry as well.

881. Ms Trainor: Absolutely.

882. Mr D Bradley: Do you intend to visit Omagh?

883. Mr McNarry: That is the first mistake you have made all morning. [Laughter.]

884. The Chairperson: You urban person.

885. Mr D Bradley: Seriously, has your organisation planned to make itself known in places like Omagh, Armagh, Newry, and so on?

886. Mr McNarry: Newtownards, Ballywalter —

887. Ms Trainor: Our organisation’s arts membership list of 80 is well spread across all regions in Northern Ireland. I can forward a breakdown of how the membership is split to the Committee. A lot of those areas are very well covered. The challenge for us is to get the arts organisations that are currently members to help spread the word in those communities. We can use our arts membership as ambassadors for the organisation. We need to make that work harder for us.

888. The Chairperson: Will you provide some examples of in-kind sponsorship for Dominic?

889. Ms Trainor: We spoke about the in-kind sponsorship from Ulster Bank, and BT has provided full marketing support and rebranding.

890. Mr D Bradley: Does that mean that BT staff will be working on behalf of the arts organisation?

891. Ms Trainor: Yes. A lot of arts organisations currently receive in-kind sponsorship for events from drink sponsors. A big area of sponsorship is print and design, because there are high costs in printing. A lot of arts organisations receive print sponsorship, which can be very valuable to them if they have limited marketing budgets.

892. Ms Wake: A lot of business expertise is brought into arts organisations by introducing businesspeople to the boards as mentors and advisers of those organisations. If they were paying consultancy fees, that would cost thousands of pounds, but we negotiate that free of charge.

893. Mr McNarry: When did you say you were opening an office in Newtownards?

894. The Chairperson: I commend you on the success of your Allianz Arts and Business awards evening in the Reform Club in Belfast. I was pleased to be able to attend and witness what you do. There is no sign of Wendy today.

895. Ms Trainor: She is tied up with her media commitments.

896. The Chairperson: Thank you for coming along this morning.

897. Ms Trainor: Thank you for inviting us, and thank you for attending the awards ceremony, Chairman.

23 April 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

898. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I invite the Committee Researcher to make a presentation on European funding of arts and culture.

899. The Committee Researcher: I am here to brief the Committee on the levels of funding provided for arts and culture in various European countries. I will highlight individual countries’ approaches to funding and the mechanisms that they use to contribute to the arts and culture sector. A previous presentation outlined the funding levels in the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Today, I will focus on other European countries.

900. A report entitled ‘Financing the Arts and Culture in the European Union’ contends that, in most countries, state spending on culture refers only to figures provided by their culture ministries and ignores the contributions that are made by other ministries. The report states that information is mostly presented out of context. Data collection on public expenditure for culture from secondary sources suffers from limitations, such as a lack of coherent definitions of culture on a national and a local level and differences in research methodologies that often result in inconsistencies and gaps. Eurostat’s definition of culture includes creative arts, museums and archives, the performing arts, libraries, film and video, without broadcasting and art education. Eurostat suggested that the average national spending on culture of the 27 EU countries as a percentage of GDP for the period 2000 to 2005 varied from 0.3% to 1.2%.

901. In 2006, however, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) considered a broader concept of culture, which suggested that the variation in average national spending on culture of European countries was between 0·4% and 2%. The OECD places Luxembourg and Denmark at the top end of the GDP percentage spending scale and Greece at the bottom. The report showed an increase in public spending on culture in Greece, Belgium, Luxembourg and Portugal and a decrease in public spending on culture in Germany and Sweden.

902. There are differences in preferences among the EU countries in the allocation of public spending on culture. For example, spending on cultural heritage and museums is highly prioritised in Greece, Italy, Malta, Cyprus, Germany, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom. Performing arts, including music, theatre and dance, are primarily subsidised in Austria, Germany, Bulgaria, Estonia, Finland, Denmark, Hungary, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland and Sweden.

903. Arts and culture are supported by private foundations in Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Portugal, Italy and Spain. The European Foundation Centre (EFC) defines a foundation or trust as:

“an independent, separately constituted, no-profit body with its own governing board and with its own source of income, whether or not exclusively from an endowment".

904. Cultural activities are widely supported by private foundations in Germany, especially those that operate at local levels. Portugal also has a tradition of private-foundation support. In Belgium, support from foundations amounted to €15 million to €16 million in 2000, representing 13% of the total budget of private foundations. Indeed, in the Netherlands, support to culture by private associations and foundations can represent as much as 2% of total cultural expenditure.

905. Lottery funding provides additional sources of financial support to culture and the arts across Europe. However, the lack of impact or evaluation studies on lottery funding for culture allows for only general observations to be made. The stability of lottery funding is not ensured by any measure. The Finnish model could provide a solution; the Finnish Government compensates for lottery shortcomings.

906. In the United Kingdom, 33·4% of total lottery revenues are devoted to the arts and heritage. In Poland, lottery money was given to cultural enterprises and cultural investments, representing 46% and 19% of total lottery funding respectively. In the Flanders community in Belgium, 72% of lottery funds to arts and culture support the performing arts; 12·5% of lottery funds are spent on social cultural work, and 9% of lottery funds are spent on museums.

907. I will list European countries and the value added to national GDP through culture. In Denmark, the value added to national GDP was 5·3% in 2000-01; in the United Kingdom, the value added was 6·8% in 2001, which represented €85 billion; in Finland, the value added was 3·8% in 2002, which represented €4·3 billion. In Latvia, the value added was 4% in 2004, which represented €0·3 billion; in Sweden, the value added was 9% in 2000-01, which represented €17·1 billion; in Lithuania, the value added was 0·2% in 2002, which represented €0·04 billion; and, in Poland, the value added was 5·2% in 2002, which represented €17·3 billion.

908. The Chairperson: Thanks very much. Do members have any questions on the comprehensive information that has been provided by Research and Library Services on the various regional approaches to funding?

909. Mr K Robinson: There was specific mention of Flanders and the Flemish community in Belgium. Do the Walloons, the French-speaking folk, have a separate cultural input?

910. The Committee Researcher: The EU report from which the information is taken has divided those communities into two separate entities. However, the Flanders community seems to be more proactive in recording and monitoring statistics and is, therefore, listed in the report. The Walloons have a separate cultural identity, but, in the report, their statistics are subsumed. The statistics for the Flanders community are slightly better and more robust.

911. The Chairperson: Your evidence will feed into our inquiry. Thanks very much; we are very grateful.

23 April 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr Stephen Brown Miss Brenda Kent		Voluntary Arts Ireland
Mr Robin Simpson		Voluntary Arts Network

912. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): We now move on to an evidence session with Voluntary Arts Ireland. I refer members to the comprehensive written submission from Voluntary Arts Ireland and a list of suggested themes that you may wish to raise today. I invite the representatives to join us at the table. Good morning; how are you all doing?

913. Mr Stephen Brown (Voluntary Arts Ireland): Thank you very much for inviting us to talk to you. I am the chairperson of Voluntary Arts Ireland, and with me are Brenda Kent, who is the chief officer of Voluntary Arts Ireland, and Robin Simpson, who is the chief executive of Voluntary Arts Network, the UK and Ireland parent body.

914. We tried to make the point in our written submission that, as regards the arts in general, there is no clear distinction between the voluntary, community and professional arts. There is a lot of overlap, with the big beasts of the jungle and the insects all totally reliant on each other. We feel that the voluntary arts play a vital role in the entire arts sector, even in the professional arts. We are delighted that the Committee has not left the voluntary arts out and has taken account of where they stand. It can be easy to leave them out because, although they represent themselves very well, they are generally not well represented, funded or resourced.

915. Voluntary Arts Ireland, which is a small group itself, tries to champion the voluntary arts in general. We work with lots of organisations, including community youth groups in Omagh, writers’ groups in Limavady and Derry, the Sticky Fingers children’s project in Warrenpoint, Deaf Arts in Belfast and our own project with youth groups in County Antrim.

916. It is important that the sector is not ignored for several reasons. We feel that it is where engagement first starts; it is where volunteers and people find themselves participating in the arts. The voluntary arts are the most accessible part of the arts; they are to be found in the community, local pubs, barns and wherever there happens to be a venue to hold a play, a film, a choir practice or a rehearsal of some sort. The voluntary arts contribute to arts careers. A lot of the current professionals started off in the voluntary arts. A well-known flautist used to play in the 39th Old Boys Flute Band. Actors and others have started their careers in amateur drama groups. The sector contributes directly to the economy and the infrastructure of communities. Many of the festivals and venues were born and have developed as a result of voluntary pressure and voluntary work — before the professionals ever got around to it.

917. We are working on the assumption that there are about 2,000-plus voluntary groups in the North of Ireland. It is hard to be certain, because a lot of them are under the radar and we do not know very much about them. However, although there are probably more groups, we have always worked on the basis of that figure. Because Northern Ireland has the lowest level of arts funding in the UK — indeed, in Ireland as well — we worry that whatever resources are made available will be a bit more centralised and that those folk will fall off the perch. We are keen that that should not happen as it would impact on the whole voluntary system.

918. We recommend that the arts budget in the North of Ireland should be increased so that the entire arts sector might benefit from expenditure equivalent to that enjoyed in the east and the south of this part of the world.

919. Mr Robin Simpson (Voluntary Arts Network): I am the chief executive of the Voluntary Arts Network, so I am responsible for Voluntary Arts Ireland and its sister operations in England, Wales and Scotland. We are one of the six founder members of Amateo, a new European network for the amateur arts, which brings us into contact with similar organisations across Europe.

920. Another key point in our submission was the need for an overarching strategy and interdepartmental approach. The voluntary arts are important in two ways. As Stephen said, they are an integral part of the wider arts sector. The professional arts could not survive without amateurs. Many professionals start as amateurs and many amateur groups employ professionals. That is an important part of the arts ecology. That overview of the linkages between the voluntary arts and the whole sector is important — and it is important for the Department and the Arts Council.

921. The voluntary arts also make a key contribution to volunteering, the economy, lifelong learning, mental and physical health, regeneration, community cohesion, etc. Nobody joins an amateur arts group to make a contribution to regeneration or social cohesion. People join because they want to sing, act or dance. However, those community groups create a by-product that affects a lot of those other agendas, many of which pertain to other Departments. There is a lack of joining up of the potential of that quite large sector that reaches into communities throughout Northern Ireland. It is right and proper for the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) to take the lead and to work interdepartmentally to see what potential the voluntary arts have to affect health, regeneration, social development, and so on.

922. Voluntary Arts Ireland’s research shows that almost none of the small groups accesses funding from any Department or programme, and we believe that an interdepartmental approach would begin to lever more funding into the sector. The voluntary arts groups are a potential generator of more money for the arts sector from non-arts sources.

923. For years, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) in England has had public service agreement targets to raise levels of arts participation, and for years it has singularly failed to meet those targets, largely because it works primarily through Arts Council England, which then charges its regularly funded organisations — about 800 arts institutions — with increasing participation. That is not where participation happens: it happens in small community groups that are not funded through any Government or Arts Council programme.

924. Recently, we have been pleased to note a growing realisation on the part of DCMS in London that there is a need to work with the voluntary arts sector if we are to really tackle issues around arts participation. Last year, DCMS commissioned a major piece of research in England called ‘Our Creative Talent: The Voluntary and Amateur Arts in England,’ which demonstrated the scale and scope of the voluntary arts sector for the first time. That paper had quite an impact on our work with the Arts Council in London, and around England in general, and on the council’s attitude to the sector and its potential. That has been a real turning point for us in England over the past year.

925. We have also been working in Westminster with the Office of the Third Sector at the Cabinet Office to look at the arts within volunteering, particularly the volunteering agenda around 2012 and the Olympic volunteering legacy. The arts provide a huge number of volunteers, many of whom go unrecognised in the wider volunteering world.

926. We have carried out a great deal of work with the Department for Innovation, Universities & Skills at Westminster. That work has concentrated on John Denham’s informal learning agenda, which was the subject of a White Paper that came out a few weeks ago. We again looked at the role that the voluntary arts sector plays in allowing people to learn to develop skills and to engage in informal learning for its own sake. DCMS has played a key role in all that interdepartmental work, and its representatives have sat with us in meetings with some of the other Government Departments, which has been very useful.

927. We have also carried out similar work in Wales and Scotland. In Wales, we recently met the Welsh Assembly’s Deputy Minister for Regeneration to examine the role of arts and regeneration, and we have planned a project that will link to that Department. In Scotland, we work very closely with the Department that is equivalent to the Department for Social Development (DSD) here. In addition, we are working on a project with Voluntary Arts Wales to examine the effects of arts participation in rural and peripheral communities, which forms part of the Carnegie Commission for Rural Community Development.

928. Therefore, there is potential for the voluntary arts sector to become involved in many areas and from many angles, but we feel that those opportunities are not always being fully exploited. Therefore, our recommendation is that the Department should take the lead in commissioning research akin to that carried out in England to inform a strategy for action to maximise the potential of the sector. Furthermore, we recommend that the Department should take the lead in establishing an interdepartmental forum to examine the potential of other agendas and other Departments.

929. Miss Brenda Kent (Voluntary Arts Ireland): I have met the Committee before. I run Voluntary Arts Ireland here, and it falls to me to talk about the money behind all of this.

930. At the outset, I want to state quite clearly that the issue is not so much about money as it is about sustainability. Money helps, but we know from research that we have carried out that volunteer-led groups have survived for four or more decades on average, despite funding difficulties. When we carried out our research six years ago, we found that one in three of those groups had received no grant aid and one fifth run on less than £100 per month. Those groups are sustainable because they have are built on community interest and have levered in vast quantities of volunteer time, and because they have raised most of what they have needed so far from sales and fees.

931. The Committee’s inquiry deals specifically with models of funding, and we suggest that voluntary arts groups are a sustainable model, provided that they have the backing of a support structure. Once those groups are supported, they thrive. They generate more activities, they lever in funding and human resources into the arts and become a catalyst for growth, rather than an ever-increasing drain on public arts funding.

932. However, those groups still need investment, and they need it now for three reasons. The first is that they face a combination of rising costs and a shrinking economy — even a £300 increase in insurance or the cost of hiring a hall can totally unbalance a budget and see arts activities vanish. The second reason is that there is a need for investment in skills as demands are rising and volunteers — not just in the voluntary arts sector, but across the arts as a whole — now need to know about issues such as constitutions, child protection and health and safety.

933. The third reason for increased investment in the arts is that we are not getting the very best out of the sector. There is no funding for groups to grow or, importantly, try new things or reach new audiences or participants. Those groups would love to grow, but they just cannot take the risks that bigger organisations can take without knowing that they have a little bit of money behind them.

934. Voluntary Arts Ireland works directly with perhaps 200 or more people a year, and that is as much as we can do with our present resources. I can provide the Committee with two recent examples of our work. The first concerns a woman from Downpatrick — where we are based — who wanted to expand the craft group that she had been running for over a year. She had engaged 50 people, aged between 20 and 80, and she had self-funded the group. However, she reached the stage whereby she could not afford to buy the willow required for basket making. She tried to obtain a local authority grant, but found that she was unable to receive one without a constitution. At that point, she came to us, and we are now helping her to develop a constitution and marketing plan to enable her to access approximately £2,000 to continue and expand her work.

935. In Belfast, the Arts Council put us in touch with a group of young people who use sign language. They were considering the best way for them to establish a group to engage in deaf arts and use sign language in the arts. They were able to contact us, and we have an expert in developing constitutions and guiding groups through that phase. The group is now on its way to establishing arts provision that will reach out to others.

936. In both cases, small amounts of money were sought. However, the other stumbling block was the ability to access support so that provision could be made or sustained. For such arts volunteers, having someone to turn to when starting out or facing challenges is a vital part of the investment structure. Hence, the recommendation in our submission is that additional funding be set aside to enable groups to develop participation and their ability to generate their own income. We also recommend that the Department grasp the opportunity presented by the review of public administration (RPA) to encourage local authority investment in local arts groups to enable volunteers to continue their current magnificent provision.

937. Mr R Simpson: In summary, I have three brief conclusions.

938. First, the funding of the voluntary sector of the arts could be improved by recognising the sector. If the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure were to take the lead by mapping the sector and developing a strategy for its growth, involving the sector and other Departments in the process, that would be an important symbolic gesture. The voluntary arts sector craves recognition rather than funding; we want to be taken seriously as a part of the arts world.

939. Secondly, the sector is largely self-funding. Therefore, what is needed is not so much core funding as the specific provision of funding to develop the sector’s ability to increase participation and audiences, thereby generating its own income and becoming more sustainable.

940. Finally, additional funding must be directed to support services that can provide arts volunteers with the necessary skills to generate sales and sustain their provision. Our creative talent study in England last year, and the research that we carried out in Northern Ireland in 2003, identified issues affecting the sector: the complexity of grant application processes; the need to raise the sector’s profile and attract new members, and the need for advice and guidance on compliance with legislation. The voluntary arts sector is proud of its artistic activity, but would benefit from more support in fulfilling the administrative and logistical requirements of running a voluntary arts group, particularly at a time when compliance costs are rising.

941. Thank you very much for your attention. I am sure that you have plenty of questions, and we will be happy to answer them based on our experiences locally, and across the UK, Ireland and Europe.

942. Mr McCarthy: Thank you very much for your presentation. The inquiry seeks to compare the per capita spend in Northern Ireland with that in other regions. Your submission draws attention to the fact that local authorities here contribute £4·11 per capita, which is almost double the amount of £2·22 spent in England and Wales. Is that in addition to the 2007 figure of £6·11 per capita that the Arts Council produced for Northern Ireland?

943. Miss Kent: Those figures are not directly comparable: one is based on studies in England, and the other is drawn from here. As some local authorities here include the cost of venues in that figure, but others do not, the figures are not comparable. We would like more work to be done in that area. Most of the local authorities are active in making small grants, some of £100 or even £50. When we try to calculate a total, we find that the grants get muddled up with everything else, such as the cost of staff who run the theatres, and it becomes nearly impossible to disentangle the figures. The local authorities here are very active, but at a lower level of grant-making than those in England.

944. Mr P Ramsey: You are welcome here today, and I note that you use some useful language.

945. Robin, you talked about a cross-departmental approach in other regions, and you called on the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to create interaction by establishing an interdepartmental forum. Is there evidence that such an approach produces a financial dividend? You suggested, for example, that other Departments do not sufficiently buy into greater social development or education. Is there a greater level of buy-in because there is a cross-departmental approach in Wales, Scotland or England?

946. Mr R Simpson: Yes. I can give two examples. For a long time in England, we have been pushing, through DCMS, for a better way of signposting people to opportunities to participate. Some sort of online database or portal would allow people to find an opportunity to become involved in lacemaking, dancing or acting in their local community. That is something for which DCMS has struggled to find funding in its small budget — likewise with the budget of Arts Council England. However, over the past six months, we have discussed with the Office of the Third Sector at the Cabinet Office how the work that it is doing to signpost people to volunteering opportunities might link in with our work and to the development of a single, online portal. The Cabinet Office Minister has recently committed £1 million to the project, and, as a result, we are about to launch a portal. That outcome came about by bringing the two Departments together, and it is one of the things for which we have been pushing DCMS for years.

947. The other example is the work that we have carried out at Westminster with the Department for Innovation, Universities & Skills. It recognises that involvement in voluntary arts groups, such as singing in a choir or playing in a brass band, is informal learning, as much as sitting in a classroom with a teacher is. That has opened up to voluntary arts groups the new informal learning challenge fund, which John Denham has just launched. Voluntary arts group can now apply for funding from a £20 million pot from the Department for Innovation, Universities & Skills — a pot that was not available before. We have other irons in the fire in London, Edinburgh and Cardiff.

948. It is not a magic answer, but, in most cases, the other Departments to which we talk have budgets that are enormous compared to the culture budget. To lever out a small part of such a budget is of benefit to the arts as a whole and to the work of the Culture Department.

949. Mr P Ramsey: You called on the Department to carry out a mapping exercise of the sector across Northern Ireland. Presumably, that would be undertaken by the Department or by the Arts Council. Perhaps we can find that out at a later stage. Can you explain the benefit of such an exercise? What would the end product be? What would it achieve?

950. Miss Kent: There was a mapping exercise; one of the first things that we did with funding from the lottery through the Arts Council was to research the sector here, and a copy of that research, ‘Facts, Figures and Futures’, is lodged in the Library. That study is now a little long in the tooth. It established that 12% of the population is engaged in such groups: thus, a participation level was established. Once one has such figures, one can get the ear of people. That figure shows that almost 200,000 people take part in the arts. Updating that mapping thoroughly would enable us to base any overarching strategy — which, currently, does not exist — on facts. That is important if we are to make policy decisions. It would also mean that we could discover what new groups have sprung up, and which have gone to the wall because of the pressures that they have been under.

951. Mr R Simpson: When DCMS commissioned research in England last year, that had a very significant effect. It provided symbolic value. Many of the statistics that it produced were in line with what we expected and had known for years, but the symbolism of a Government Department commissioning a piece of research has caused a huge change in the attitude of Arts Council England and its approach to working with the amateur arts sector. There was much more co-operation and strategic planning as a result of the fact that the Department commissioned the research.

952. Mr K Robinson: Thank you for three very concise and succinct presentations, which are very helpful to the Committee’s work. You expressed support for the devolution of the community festivals fund to local councils, which happened in April 2008. Those councils now provide matched funding. In your view, should DCAL consider devolving other arts streams to local councils to encourage them to spend more on the arts? That is the question. The conundrum is: if there is a greater involvement of local councils, do we strangle at birth ideas, expertise and enthusiasm with the dead hand of local council involvement? [Laughter.]

953. Mr S Brown: That is a difficult one, of that there is no doubt. If we take Belfast City Council, the one council that will not change, we can see that it has experienced more and more difficulty in coping and dealing with the voluntary sector because of the level of administration that is required. Small councils are closer to the ground than big councils, but it is difficult to say what the best solution would be.

954. Miss Kent: We are going out around the countryside. There is a commitment to move some funding responsibilities to the local authorities under RPA. DCAL asked me what I thought should move, and I told it to give me some time so that I could ask the sector. We have started that conversation, which is interesting because there is an awareness that if a scheme is started, local authorities will take a slightly bigger risk — in that they only spend a few hundred pounds because it is a smaller process and they may know the groups with whom they work — than if they approached a more remote Arts Council that is used to dealing with bigger grants. Even the smaller grants are fairly sizeable in this context. For start-ups, local authorities are very effective.

955. We also pick up the feeling that there are great difficulties with only having local-authority funding, in that touring cannot happen or becomes very difficult. Local authorities do not have the expertise in the art forms that the Arts Council has developed. They may not take such risks with art as opposed to local community activities. The answer is to look for something that has a balance and allows accessibility because of the location — which Stephen mentioned — but which does not drive down artistic excellence or the risk-taking that the Arts Council has developed expertise in supporting.

956. There are also other models. At one point, the Western Isles gave funding to umbrella bodies to distribute to their members because they knew them and were aware of the quality in that art form. It made the reporting a lot easier for the member groups, and yet the local authority still had accountability. Our submission refers to other models like that.

957. Mr K Robinson: The reason why I put that sting in the tail was because I spoke to a young fellow over the weekend who has been involved in marching bands for many years. I happened to say that I had not seen him for a while. He said that he does not go because the band does not march — it performs sit-down concerts. It does that because the local authority gives it an amount of money every time it performs a concert in the local park. It does not get involved in the community in the way that it did in the past. He is a good drummer — he reads music rather than being someone who just bangs — but, having been involved with the band for many years, he has now stepped away from the art. By being helpful to one agency through the local council, we have driven participants away. There must be more people like that right across the range of arts.

958. Miss Kent: There may be an opportunity for the Department, when looking at moving funding across to local authorities, to encourage them to match that and encourage some sort of continuity or consistency across the different local authorities, because it will vary. It can be quite random what is done in one area compared to another. Of course, there will be fewer local authorities, which may make it slightly easier. However, that is our point exactly: if a group’s funding — small though it may be — starts getting tied in with conditions, and we are talking about the equivalent of bums on seats, it cannot take risks. I am sure that that band would love to go and march, but it cannot do that if it will cost them an extra £200. Where will that money come from if the band has already taken all that it can from fees from its members and does not want to exclude people who cannot afford increased fees?

959. Mr R Simpson: That relates to a key theme that runs throughout our submission: the difference between core funding and developmental support. It is dangerous for any voluntary arts group to get into too much of a stable core-funding relationship with anybody for those reasons. It could become so reliant on that funding that it plays that game and goes with those strings. It would be better for some of the funding to be predicated on developing the group and allowing it to do something new and ambitious, and to create its own sustainability so that if that money disappears in five years, the group is not finished — it has more ability to create its own funding elsewhere.

960. Mr Shannon: In your presentation, you referred to public service agreement (PSA) 9. In particular, you referred to arts participation and the hope that that will increase by 2%. You also stated that there are 160,000 adult participants in the volunteer-led arts sector. Do you feel that the funding balance is skewed in favour of the arts organisations that go for involvement with large audiences rather than with participants? I think that the 160,000 people to whom you referred are quite significant.

961. My second question follows on from the point that you made about the allocations across art forms. You mentioned Arts Council funding for band instruments over the past 10 years. I am aware of some of the figures that you quoted. The funding that bands can apply for amounts to £5,000, but it used to be closer to £20,000. There is no comparison with bands across the water. It is easier to start a flute band, because flutes are cheaper instruments. However, a brass band is much more expensive. What can be done to help bands? Funding is not just for instruments; it can be for officers to promote interest. People start off in bands and progress. One of the greatest musicians that we have in the Province is James Galway; he is an example of what can happen.

962. Miss Kent: Underlying all of that is the fact that a cake can only be divided into so many pieces. Arts funding here, as we know, is lower than it is over the water. Therefore, we are always rearranging things; if that issue were to be addressed, there would be more money for bands and for all art forms. What underpins it all is the level of per capita spend.

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