Official Report (Hansard)

COMMITTEE FOR THE OFFICE OF THE FIRST MINISTER AND DEPUTY FIRST MINISTER

OFFICIAL REPORT
(Hansard)

Consideration of EU Issues

11 February 2009

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:

Mr Danny Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mrs Naomi Long (Deputy Chairperson)
Ms Martina Anderson
Mr Tom Elliott
Mrs Dolores Kelly
Mr Ian McCrea
Mr Barry McElduff
Mr Stephen Moutray
Mr Jim Shannon
Mr Jimmy Spratt

Witnesses:

Mr Edwin Poots ) Committee of the Regions

The Chairperson (Mr Kennedy):

Good afternoon, Mr Poots. You are not exactly a stranger to the Building, or, indeed, to this Committee, in its previous form. You are very welcome, and thank you for joining us. As you know, the Committee is conducting an inquiry into European issues and how the Assembly can better work with, and relate to, the European Union. As a member of the Committee of the Regions, you have an insight into that issue. It would be helpful if you would make an opening statement and take questions afterwards.

Mr Edwin Poots (Committee of the Regions):

I emailed a submission to the Committee, which I assume it has received.

The Chairperson:

We received that.

Mr Poots:

I thank the Committee for its invitation. I know that you have big shoes to fill as Chairperson.

The Chairperson:

It is very modest of you to say so.

Mr Poots:

I was referring to Gregory Campbell’s time chairing the Committee, not mine. [Laughter.] You have a much easier job than I had, because the First Minister had a lot more to keep an eye on then.

On the European scene, the Committee of the Regions is below the European Parliament and the European Commission in the pecking order. Its members are appointed from local governments throughout the European Union. It is designed to seek out grass roots opinion and be the conduit through which Brussels can consult with people on the ground.

The Committee of the Regions meets in plenary session six times a year. It has six subcommittees, which also meet approximately six times a year in order to examine various European Union policies and give their opinions on them. The subcommittees appoint rapporteurs to produce reports on issues such as the common agricultural policy (CAP) health check or the Lisbon Treaty. Those reports are presented to the full plenary sessions of the Committee of the Regions and are voted on by its members.

The role of the rapporteur is quite important. To be appointed as a rapporteur for a particular report puts that individual in a strong position to promote the interests of his or her region. The European Commission is supposed to take account of the reports of the Committee of the Regions, and most plenary sessions of the Committee are attended by commissioners, who will update members on their area of work.

In my view, power in Brussels is exercised from the top-down, as opposed to the bottom-up. In a sense, the European Parliament is a contrived political entity, and, as a consequence, it is unlike any other normal parliamentary or political process. There are several dominant regions, which are concentrated in central Europe around the Franco-German axis. As a result, it is very difficult for a particular regional point of view to have an influence; it is like being a very small fish in a very large pond.

Nonetheless, there are issues on which influence can be brought to bear. The common agricultural policy health check was recently dealt with by the Committee on Development (DEVE), and, ultimately, in the Committee’s plenary session. A vote on the export refunds took place in October 2008, which we won by about eight votes. Subsequently, the European Commission decided to re-introduce export refunds. The rapporteur had actually not recommended the re-introduction of export refunds. That was a critical issue for the people of Northern Ireland, so it was useful to be there and have a modest input into that issue.

However, we hope that the Committee of the Regions exerts some influence in regard to such issues. For instance, Commissioner Fischer Boel identified that the Committee supported change, and that may have had a bearing on her decision to support the rate of export refunds, which will help Northern Ireland’s dairy industry, if not immediately, over the next few months. Those are the types of issues with which the Committee deals.

The Committee of the Regions contains two appointees from Northern Ireland, with two substitutes. The positions are currently held by the two largest parties, which has been the case for a long time. I followed George Savage, and Sir Reg Empey and Dermot Nesbitt were also members.

That is a brief outline of our work. I am happy to take questions.

The Chairperson:

Thank you. That was very useful and informative.

Are there any mechanisms that Departments here could provide — in respect of policies and events — to improve the flow of information that would help in your work as a member or the work of other Northern Ireland representatives who are engaged in Europe?

Mr Poots:

I receive briefings from the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM) on the relevant issues. If a matter that is of particular interest to a Northern Ireland Department is to be raised in a DEVE meeting or in a European Parliament plenary session, that Department channels its views through OFMDFM, which works satisfactorily.

Ms Anderson:

What opportunities are there for members of the Committee of the Regions to work with other regions on common issues? Yesterday, the First and deputy First Ministers were in Brussels, along with the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. That may have displayed a joined-up approach to issues that affect here. However, as a former Minister, do you believe that the Executive take a strategic approach to Europe?

Mr Poots:

I am not sure that I can make a judgement on the last question, but I will come to it in a moment.

What was the first question?

Ms Anderson:

It was about the opportunities that members of the Committee of the Regions have to work with other regions on common issues.

Mr Poots:

Interestingly, I recently received an email from a French member of the Committee of the Regions who is very concerned about the state of the car industry. That member wants to establish an international working group on the downturn that the car industry is experiencing in many parts of Europe. That is an example of a recent issue on which members want to get together to draw up some recommendations.

On the issue of how the Executive operate in Brussels — networking is of crucial importance. It is about getting to know people, and, I believe, the Executive have a lot to learn from the approach adopted by the Irish many years ago. At that time, the Republic sent the best of its civil servants to Europe. They delivered results because they were capable of networking and had the intellectual ability to advance their case. Consequently, Ireland was one of the biggest net beneficiaries of European funding for many years thereafter.

When I was Chairperson of the Committee of the Centre, as it was then known, we carried out some of the same work that you are now doing. Among the issues that were considered at that time was the secondment of key people in the Civil Service to Brussels — including to offices not associated with Northern Ireland.

Although the money was coming out of the Northern Ireland block budget, those people could, nonetheless, be in areas in which they can influence policy in Brussels and do something that is of benefit to the people of Northern Ireland.

There are measures that the Executive could take to further promote Northern Ireland. As a region, Northern Ireland probably punches above its weight in Brussels, and the fact that the First Minister and deputy First Minister, the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development were out in Europe about a range of issues — including one that is affecting Northern Ireland — demonstrates a strong commitment by the Executive to seek to get as much as they can from Brussels. That kind of work, in which senior Ministers network with the commissioners for the wider benefit of Northern Ireland, must continue. The commissioners are the people who are the position to make decisions and to deliver.

Mr Moutray:

A few weeks ago, Sean Neeson of the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of the Council of Europe gave evidence to this Committee. What relation, if any, is there between the Committee of the Regions and that body? Furthermore, do you have interaction with the three MEPs from Ulster?

Mr Poots:

No. I might previously have had interaction with one of the MEPs, but, for some reason, that seems to have dried up.

The Chairperson:

I seem to recall the reason for that. [Laughter.]

Mr Elliott:

Does Bairbre de Brún not talk to you now?

Mr Poots:

She probably would.

A great amount of interactivity has never taken place between the MEPs and Committee of the Regions, mainly because the plenary sessions of the European Parliament and those of the Committee of the Regions do not take place at the same time. The European Parliament normally meets in Strasbourg because the Committee of the Regions normally uses the European Parliament building in Brussels. The two events are scheduled to keep each of those bodies apart, so there is not much interaction other than at a local level in Northern Ireland.

The Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of the Council of Europe meets at a completely different time from the Committee of the Regions, so I never see Sean Neeson in Brussels.

The Committee of the Regions interacts with the Office of the Northern Ireland Executive in Brussels. That is beneficial, as are the papers that that office provides. I am not sure how much the MEPs work with that office, but, ultimately, one will get only as much out of something as one puts in.

The other area in which interaction is important is with the UKReps. They have strong influence, not so much with the Committee of the Regions, but with the MEPs. That important area should be fully harnessed and gain the full support of MEPs.

Ultimately, Brussels is about networking and about getting to know the right people in the right positions and influencing those people to make decisions that are to the benefit of Northern Ireland. It does not matter how often representatives are in Brussels; if they are not working and co-operating with people, it has no significant benefit to Northern Ireland.

Mr Shannon:

You are back on your old hunting ground, Edwin. You will recall being here on other occasions.

You mentioned that networking was the key to what you do. If that is taken to its conclusion, your work is a case of not what you know, but of who you know. How do you feel that the Office of the Northern Ireland Executive in Brussels could improve its contact and relationship with the Assembly in order to be advantageous to Members so that we know what is going on?

Do you see any potential value in visits or secondments from the Assembly to Europe?

Mr Poots:

Any visits must be focused, and qualitative meetings must be established before going out to Europe. There is no point looking at a lot of offices and buildings and not having the right people to see.

I said already that it would be useful for Northern Ireland to have the right people seconded to Brussels so that they can get to know people in key places, tell the Northern Ireland story and find out where Northern Ireland could benefit from decisions taken in Brussels. After all, approximately 60% of our primary legislation emanates from Brussels.

Much of our national Government policy is based on what happens in the south of England, as that is where most of the money is generated. However, there are many more rural areas in the north of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, which rely more heavily on agriculture in the first instance, and also rural-based businesses. Our national Government do not reflect that situation, as it is not necessarily in their interest to do so.

Therefore, it is important for the regions of the United Kingdom to work together closely. A committee was established between the chairpersons of the European committees, the House of Lords, the House of Commons, the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales. However, I am not sure whether that committee still exists. Nevertheless, it is important for the regional Governments to work together to try to exert peer pressure on the national Government to represent the views of those regions. When they get together, they will have more strength than individual regions.

Mr Shannon:

Last week, when we visited the Scottish Parliament — although there are dozens and dozens of issues — we learned that it was focusing on four areas. Are you suggesting that the Assembly should focus on two, three or perhaps four themes, and deliver on those?

Mr Poots:

Ultimately, what is beneficial to London is not necessarily beneficial to the folk in Northern Ireland.

Mrs D Kelly:

Yes; 10 out of 10.

Ms Anderson:

Well said, Edwin. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson:

Order, please.

Mr Poots:

We have a much stronger rural background and rural economy. Some 8% of our economy is dependent on agriculture, while in the rest of the UK, the figure is less than 2%. Obviously, that is a much greater issue for us than it is for Hilary Benn and his colleagues in Westminster. Equally, it is as big an issue for people in Scotland, Wales and the north of England. We are not alone, and, if we can get together with our colleagues, we will have a greater influence on national policy by providing greater pressure as a group of regions.

Mr Shannon:

The common fisheries policy is coming up for review in 2013. Have you had any contact with the fishing agencies as to how we might influence some of the changes that will happen in 2013? Have you covered that issue in the Committee of the Regions, and if not, would it be a good idea? The Scottish Parliament is examining that matter and, no doubt, the National Assembly for Wales will do the same. It is important that we are included in the process of influencing change for 2013.

Mr Poots:

Absolutely. The last common fisheries policy was damaging to Northern Ireland. I am glad that you are representing the interests of South Down as well as Strangford.

Mr Shannon:

I represent all the people who are involved in fishing.

Mrs D Kelly:

I thank Edwin for his presentation. Other members have referred to the legislative work programme for the year ahead. Are there any matters that you want to draw to our attention, or any issues that will have a particular impact on Northern Ireland?

Mr Poots:

Whatever flows from the Lisbon Treaty will be critical, and there are key issues about the adoption of the treaty. Were it to be adopted in its current form, it would weaken the power of member states and centralise power further, and I would have difficulty with that. If the treaty is ratified, life thereafter will become considerably more difficult for people in the regions who want to have an influence. Therefore, people throughout the EU regions should be focusing their efforts on ensuring that that does not happen.

The Republic of Ireland voted against the treaty, so there is likely to be a second vote there. If Brussels does not get its way the first time round, it generally forces, or coerces, Governments to hold repeat referendums until it gets the result that it wants. I will be watching that space.

I would have liked us folk in the United Kingdom to have had an opportunity to vote, as was originally promised by Gordon Brown.

Mrs D Kelly:

It will come as no surprise to members that the SDLP is the only pro-European party in the North, and the Lisbon Treaty has other grounds on which to recommend it.

The Chairperson:

Let us try to focus on European matters.

Mrs D Kelly:

A few weeks ago, the European Central Bank announced a financial assistance scheme. Are there any programmes that might help our indigenous small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs)?

Mr Poots:

The Committee of the Regions has not discussed that matter. Therefore, I have no specific knowledge about such programmes. Perhaps the next set of witnesses, who are sitting behind me, will be able to assist you. At least they will have had an early warning about the question.

Mr McElduff:

Have you witnessed any good examples of another region benefiting from the work of a rapporteur? Furthermore, have you thought of a theme by which you might bid for rapporteur work?

Mr Poots:

I have talked to colleagues about that. To be honest, it is easier to get rapporteur work if one is a member of a group. Presently, I am an independent. Groups are able to bid for rapporteur work, and I have indicated to some groups that I have a particular interest in doing something relating to agriculture. I hope that an appropriate opportunity to do so will arise. Several groups are sympathetic to my wishes, but I will have to wait to see what happens. As I said, it is easier for a member of a group to get work; however, one must be a member of that group, and that would not necessarily help my case. Obviously, there are a number of groups in the European Parliament, and they are represented by members of political parties on the Committee of the Regions.

Groups are hugely diverse. For example, Jim Nicholson is a member of the EPP-EP Group — the Group of the European People’s Party (Christian Democrats) and European Democrats, which has 272 members, so it is difficult for a single member to significantly influence the group’s decisions. Similarly, it is difficult for an individual British Labour Party or Conservative Party MP to have a major influence on what happens in his or her Westminster group, and it is even more difficult in Europe. Nonetheless, it is easier to become involved in such work if one is a member of a group.

Mr McElduff:

Have you been impressed by any examples of rapporteur work for any of the regions?

Mr Poots:

Several good streams of work have emerged. Fairly sensible recommendations have been made to the European Commission, some of which have been taken on board and many of which have been ignored.

Mr Elliott:

I thank Edwin for his presentation. In your written submission, you said that the main purpose of the Committee of the Regions is for local councillors, who have direct access to their communities, to be able to influence European policymakers. Given that the overall European agenda is so big, I wonder how big an influence the Committee of the Regions can have. I assume that it is difficult even for the European Parliament committees to have any influence. Do you have any contact with European commissioners, the European Commission or, indeed, the European Parliament?

Mr Poots:

All the reports are sent to the relevant Commissioners. Let us be honest, there is the European Commission, there is the European Parliament, which has very limited influence, and there is the Committee of the Regions, which has considerably less influence than that.

That is the reality, and, given the nature of Europe, it will be very difficult to change that, because the nations appoint their commissioners. As those commissioners are state appointees, they will try to promote the will of the Government of their country as far as they can. In some instances, a policy may be favourable to another region as a consequence of a commissioner following his or her national Government’s policies. If there was an agricultural commissioner from France, for example, that would probably be good news for farmers in Northern Ireland. However, if the agricultural commissioner came from the UK, it may not be good news for farmers in Northern Ireland.

A lot depends on the commissioners and who appoints those commissioners — that will have an effect on how policies emanate. What happens thereafter also depends on what deals are struck between the various commissioners. The commissioners work with each other. Therefore, if someone could establish contacts with a commissioner — whether from the UK Government, from the Republic Of Ireland, or elsewhere — it could be to the benefit of one’s region.

Mr Elliott:

Do you agree that there is generally a perception that most decisions taken in Europe are not taken on their own merit, but rather through deals?

Mr Poots:

Yes.

The Chairperson:

Thank you very much, Mr Poots.

Mr Poots:

Good luck with the report; I look forward to reading it.

The Chairperson:

If there is any additional information that you wish to submit, you can contact us. Or, if there is a query that we would like addressed, we will be in contact. Thank you very much indeed.