Session 2007/2008

First Report

AD HOC COMMITTEE ON LOCAL POSTAL SERVICES

Report on the Committee’s Consideration of, and Proposals
for, Partnerships that could
Enhance the Economic Case for Viable Local Postal Services

Together with the Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee,
Minutes of evidence and written submissions relating to the Report

Ordered by the Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services to be printed 21 May 2008

Report: 31/07/08R Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services

This document is available in a range of alternative formats.
For more information please contact the
Northern Ireland Assembly, Printed Paper Office,
Parliament Buildings, Stormont, Belfast, BT4 3XX
Tel: 028 9052 1078

Membership and Powers

The Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services was established by resolution of the Assembly under Standing Order 48(7) on 21 April 2008. The terms of reference of the Committee were to consider, and make proposals for, partnerships that could enhance the economic case for viable local postal services, and to submit a report to the Assembly by 2 June 2008.

The Committee had 12 Members, including a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson and a quorum of 5.

The Membership of the Committee is as follows:
Mr Robin Newton (Chairperson)
Mr Willie Clarke (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mr William Irwin*
Mrs Naomi Long
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Mr George Savage

* Mr Adrian McQuillan replaced Mr Stephen Moutray on 6 May 2008
* Mr William Irwin replaced Mr Adrian McQuillan on 12 May 2008.

Table of Contents

Background to the Report

Introduction and Background
Proceedings of the Committee
Acknowledgements

Executive Summary

Summary of Findings
Summary of Recommendations

Report

Background to the Establishment of the Committee
Consideration of Evidence
Key Findings and Recommendations for Viable Economic Partnerships

Appendices

Appendix 1

Proceedings of the Committee Relating to the Report

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

Appendix 3

List of Witnesses

Appendix 4

Written Submissions

Appendix 5

Assembly Research Papers

Ad Hoc Committee on
Local Postal Services

Introduction and Background

1. The Committee was established by resolution of the Assembly under Assembly Standing Order 48(7) on 21 April 2008. The terms of reference of the Committee were to consider, and make proposals for, partnerships that could enhance the economic case for viable local postal services, and to submit a report to the Assembly by 2 June 2008.

2. The Committee had 12 Members, including a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson; its quorum was five. The Membership of the Committee was as follows:

Mr Robin Newton, Chairperson
Mr Willie Clarke, Deputy Chairperson
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mr William Irwin*
Mrs Naomi Long
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Mr George Savage
*Mr Adrian McQuillan replaced Mr Stephen Moutray on 6 May 2008
*Mr William Irwin replaced Adrian McQuillan on 12 May 2008

3. It was agreed by the Committee that where Members were unable to attend they could nominate party colleagues to take their place. Three Members, Mrs Anna Lo, Mr Roy Beggs, Mr Thomas Burns participated on the Committee on that basis.

4. The Report and evidence of the Committee are published by the Stationery Office by order of the Committee. All publications of the Committee are posted on the Assembly’s website: (www.niassembly.gov.uk.)

Proceedings of the Committee

5. The first meeting of the Committee took place on 29 April 2008, the Committee elected Mr Robin Newton as Chairperson and Mr Willie Clarke as Deputy Chairperson.

6. The Committee held seven meetings on the following dates : 29 April 2008 ; 6 May 2008 ; 12 May 2008; 13 May 2008; 15 May 2008; 20 May 2008; 21 May 2008.

7. In the course of its proceedings the Committee took evidence from the following organisations:

• Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association
• Post Office Ltd
• Postwatch
• Citizens Advice Bureau
• Rural Community Network
• Help the Aged
• Wandsworth Community Centre
• Rural Community Network

8. The Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee are shown at Appendix 1.

9. The record of evidence given is shown at Appendix 2.

10. A complete list of those representatives who gave evidence to the Committee is shown at Appendix 3.

11. Written submissions and other correspondence received by the Committee are shown at Appendix 4.

12. Assembly Research Service Papers are shown at Appendix 5.

Acknowledgements

The Committee would like to express its gratitude to the organisations and individuals who provided oral and written evidence at such short notice, including the many residents of Groomsport who wrote in opposition to the closure of their local post office. The Committee also wishes to record its appreciation of the assistance provided by Dr Robert Barry, Jodie Carson and Yan Liu of the Assembly Research and Library Services and to the staff of the Official Report.

Executive Summary

Findings

1. The Committee’s key findings were that: -

• The six week response time to Post Office Ltd’s consultation on the implementation of the closures is much too short to allow for a meaningful response and three weeks for deliberation by Post Office Ltd is too short for consideration of the responses.
• Post Office Ltd acted in the manner imposed on it by the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform.
• The process was fundamentally flawed and there was no recognition of Northern Ireland being different from other parts of the United Kingdom in terms of people feeling safe travelling to certain areas because of perceived community backgrounds.
• There was little evidence that Post Office Ltd consulted widely enough and with sufficient stakeholders in Northern Ireland to consider all the options available to ensure the most appropriate decisions were taken in relation to the closure of local post offices.
• Insufficient consideration was given to the impact of the closures on the more vulnerable members of Northern Ireland society in terms of access to services, social inclusion, ability to travel to other post offices and the additional costs associated with this.
• Insufficient consideration was given to the impact of the closures, some of which are of profitable post offices, on the viability of other businesses in the areas or on businesses hosting a post office nominated for closure.
• There is no evidence to demonstrate that alternative models, such as one-stop-shops and co-location, were considered in relation to the services offered, collaboration with other bodies and practices in other countries.
• The statistical analysis used by Post Office Ltd is applied to the UK population as a whole. It does not reflect any regional variations, such as in Northern Ireland, where the population is more adversely affected than elsewhere in the United Kingdom.
• The access criteria were applied as the crow flies which is totally unrealistic. The definition used for urban and rural was not the definition normally used in Northern Ireland which has some of the highest levels of social deprivation in urban settings.
• There is no evidence to show that the alternatives being introduced, such as outreach services, are effective.
• Organisations have had little success in obtaining the basis on which the closures were proposed with many having to resort to Freedom of Information requests to obtain information. Post Office Ltd did not engage in an open and transparent process.
• There is uncertainty surrounding the future of the post office network after 2011.
• Evidence provided by Post Office Ltd showed that the number of post offices to be closed was decided before any assessment of need and access criteria was carried out.

Recommendations

2. The Committee recommends that the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform instructs Post Office Ltd to: -

• suspend the closure programme in Northern Ireland.
• consult further and more widely in Northern Ireland before deciding upon closures.
• ensure that the needs of vulnerable members of society are met.
• investigate partnerships with local councils, health service providers, retailers, Citizens Advice Bureau, etc for the delivery of services.
• examine services and delivery mechanisms in other countries.
• empower local post offices to have opening hours and services that reflect the individual needs of the community they serve.
• engage with government departments, service providers and voluntary organisations to develop innovative ways to use post offices to disseminate information and services.
• ensure wherever possible that the national thresholds for access in urban and rural areas are applied fairly and equitably.
• engage in meaningful, transparent consultation at an early stage on its network plan beyond 2011.
• At pre-consultation stage Post Office Ltd should contact locally based organisations in each area.
• The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform should identify future funding allocations for post offices as a matter of urgency.

Background to the Establishment of the Committee

3. In May 2007, the Department for Trade and Industry (now the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform), following consultation on its proposed strategy for the post office network, published its decisions on the way forward. These included the introduction of minimum access criteria to maintain a national network and protect vulnerable consumers in deprived urban, rural and remote areas, as follows:

• 99% of the UK population to be within 3 miles and 90% of the population to be within 1 mile of their nearest post office outlet.
• 99% of the total population in deprived urban areas across the UK to be within 1 mile of their nearest post office outlet.
• 95% of the total urban population across the UK to be within 1 mile of their nearest post office outlet.
• 95% of the total rural population across the UK to be within 3 miles of their nearest post office outlet.
• 95% of the population of the postcode district to be within 6 miles of their nearest post office outlet.

4. This resulted in a decision to embark on compulsory compensated closure of up to 2,500 post offices across the United Kingdom, 42 of which are in Northern Ireland with a further 54 in Northern Ireland being replaced with an outreach service.

5. Post Office Ltd held a six week consultation on the proposed changes. Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly were concerned at the announcement of the closures and considered the six-week consultation period to be too short. They also believed that such closures and service reductions would have an adverse impact on community and social infrastructure in rural and urban areas and would adversely impact upon older people, persons with disabilities and other vulnerable groups.

6. Members acknowledged that provision of post office services is a reserved matter and established an Ad Hoc Committee to think creatively about, and make proposals for, partnerships that could enhance the economic case for viable local postal services based on engagement with commercial, voluntary and public-sector partners.

Consideration of Evidence

7. The Committee received written and oral evidence from a wide range of organisations and individuals, including written submissions from a large number of residents in Groomsport expressing opposition to the closure of their post office.

8. The Committee identified key issues arising from both the written and oral consultation responses and commissioned research from Assembly Research Services in order to identify innovative examples of potential partnerships that could enhance the economic case for viable local postal services.

9. Whilst the Committee is cognisant of its remit, throughout the consultation phase a number of important recurrent themes emerged amongst respondents which concerned the Committee and which it would like to highlight. These primarily relate to the length of Post Office Ltd’s six week consultation period; the extent to which Post Office Ltd consulted with all relevant stakeholders; the statistical methodology used by the Post Office in relation to their access criteria, including the definitions of rural and urban areas used by Post Office Ltd; and the important social function which Post Offices have on the infrastructure of local communities.

Post Office Ltd consultation period

10. A significant number of witnesses providing oral evidence and written submissions to the Committee expressed concern at the six week deadline for responses to Post Office Ltd’s consultation on the implementation of the proposed closures. The Committee believes that such a short consultation period allows insufficient time for meaningful engagement between Post Office Ltd and some key stakeholders.

11. Indeed the Committee wrote to Post Office Ltd and to the Secretary of State for the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform expressing its grave concern at the limited consultation deadline and requesting an extension to enable the Committee to consult on this issue further.

12. It appears to the Committee that Post Office Ltd had given little consideration to options for improving local post offices’ viability by engaging with stakeholders to explore collaborative working arrangements, such as the co-location of services, with a range of organisations from the public sector, voluntary sector and commercial undertakings. The Committee took oral evidence from a number of organisations such as the Pharmaceutical Society of Northern Ireland and the Citizens Advice Bureau who have stated that they would welcome engagement with Post Office Ltd to explore further the co-location services.

Research methodology

13. The statistical analysis used by Post Office Ltd is applied to the UK population as a whole, as set out in the Department for Trade and Industry’s (DTI) access criteria. It does not reflect any regional variations, such as in Northern Ireland, where the population is more adversely affected than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. As pointed out by Postwatch in its response to the DTI consultation, “It is vital that the access criteria should provide an equitable distribution of post offices across the UK. Government should therefore require Post Office Ltd to ensure wherever possible the national thresholds for access in urban and rural areas are applied proportionately.”

14. Unfortunately, DTI appears to have ignored the advice of the watchdog body. Additionally, according to Post Office Ltd, the access criteria are to be measured as the crow flies which clearly does not measure access realistically. The Committee heard evidence from Help the Aged who have highlighted that many older people and vulnerable groups, although they maybe within one mile of their new post office may have to cross busy roads, busy petrol station forecourts and through tunnels, which raises many safety issues.

15. Equally many respondents to the Committee consultation have highlighted that although a post office may be within the one mile access criteria, often bus services to those post offices may be either infrequent or absent altogether, particularly in rural areas. The Committee wishes to ascertain if Post Office Ltd has taken these issues into consideration in the formulation of the access criteria.

16. The Committee is also concerned that the definitions of rural and urban areas used by Post Office Ltd in its research are UK definitions; they do not take into consideration regional differences in the definition of the terms. That is, rurality is defined differently in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) definition uses a population cut-off point of 4,500, whereas the Post Office uses the DTI recommended population cut-off point of 10,000 (i.e. small towns such as Ballyclare or Randalstown would be treated as urban in the Northern Ireland definition, but would be regarded by Post Office Ltd as rural).

17. Similarly by imposing UK methodology the Committee does not feel that Post Office Ltd has adequately taken into account the unique socio-political demography of Northern Ireland. The Committee has heard evidence, from a number of organisations including a group of Post Office sub postmasters, who maintain that some communities would not wish to use post offices in other communities for safety reasons. The Committee does not feel that Post Office Ltd has taken this issue into consideration in the formulation of the access criteria.

The impact on the social infrastructure of local communities

18. The social importance of the post office network must not be underestimated. The Committee is concerned at the loss of what is, for some, their only social network leading to further isolation, lack of involvement and, for others, the loss of independence because of an inability to travel to the alternative service. Working in conjunction with other service providers the post office could enhance the range of services available and tailor them to meet the needs of the local communities.

19. Evidence taken from voluntary groups and others indicates serious concern at the impact of the closures on people with disabilities, elderly people and those with young families. Access is a particular issue with some facing additional journeys, with added cost, to offices which are difficult to access for wheelchair users or mothers with prams. Concern exists that this could lead, for example, to people collecting their pensions less frequently. This could result in them holding more cash leaving them feeling insecure because of fears of theft or attack.

20. This is particularly the case for those who live in deprived areas where alternatives, such as access to basic financial services, may be limited or non-existent.

Key Findings and Recommendations for Viable Economic Partnerships

Small Businesses and the impact on the local economy

21. Small businesses are heavy users of the post office network. When surveyed in October 2006, 47% of members of the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB) used their local post office more than once per week. 82% think that the closure of their local post office would have a significant impact on their business, in some cases leading to business closure, and 97% of small businesses think that the post office has a role to play in the local community.

22. The commercial realities that exist in the current climate are understood but there is disappointment that nearly 20% of the current Northern Ireland post office network is either to be closed or to have a reduced service. This is very likely to affect small businesses and independent retailers, as post office customers generate footfall for many other local shops and businesses.

23. For small businesses, post office services must be available late in the day, to process essential business correspondence, such as invoices, within the working day. Post is now delivered later in the day, and with further consultations to reduce services, the replacement service must be sensitive to this business need. Parcel services are of high importance to small businesses, particularly where purchases are offered via the internet. In the FSB survey, the most frequent reasons for small businesses using post offices were to send parcels (79%) and to purchase stamps (78%). It is important to ensure that parcel processing services are not reduced and there is concern that the proposed 2 kg package weight restriction for some outreach measures will not meet the needs of businesses.

24. Post offices help generate footfall for a number of independent retailers as many of the customers collect benefits and pensions and then visit local stores to make purchases. Six retailers who have post offices as part of their businesses report that they are extremely busy yet they are part of the closure programme. For those post offices that remain open the Government must ensure that sub-postmasters can invest in their business with confidence in its long term future. To achieve this goal, Government should look to invest in a programme of modernising and updating the remaining post offices to bring them into the twenty-first century.

Recommendation:

DBERR should empower local post offices to have opening hours and services that reflect the individual needs of the community they serve.

Social and town centre regeneration

25. Post offices are often at the heart of local communities and town centres acting as a catalyst for other small business and leading to increased footfall. The number of out of town retail and leisure centres has undermined the development of town centres to the detriment of small businesses. The Committee is concerned that the closure of post offices without giving full consideration to the social and economic impact will add further to the demise of town centres.

Impact of the closures on rural communities

26. The Rural Community Network, which gave evidence to the Committee, recognises the challenges for securing economic sustainability for the rural post office network but argues that the wider public service dimension should have equal consideration.

27. Using Post Office Ltd’s definition, approximately 41% of Northern Ireland’s population lives in a rural area; 151 post office closures will be in urban areas and 341 in rural areas. Deprivation manifests itself differently in rural communities in that it is more dispersed and, therefore, less visible.

28. The post office is seen as an essential service often supporting the only shop in a village. This leads to concerns that closure would trigger a domino effect leading to withdrawals of other key services. In certain areas, because of poor transport links, the trip to the alternative post office could be an all day event which is unacceptable to most people.

Closures in urban areas

29. Much of the focus of the impact of post office closures has been on rural communities. However, concern has been expressed that a number of the closures in Belfast are in areas with high concentrations of deprivation and they will adversely affect the most vulnerable and socially excluded sections of the community. While Post Office Ltd appears to have adhered to the minimum access criteria prescribed this does not reflect the difficulties that the distance can place on older people or people on low incomes who do not have access to a car.

30. Three of the branches are in areas where over half of the households do not have access to a vehicle, which is considerably higher than the average for Belfast of 43.8%. In addition, the public transport options to nearby branches are often restricted. In Belfast there is no direct bus service between two of the ten branches proposed for closure and either of the nearest alternative branches that have been identified. Half of the branches due to close have only one suggested alternative branch on a bus route. The proposed branch closures therefore will affect the independence of those most heavily reliant upon them.

Recommendations

Post Office Ltd should

• investigate partnerships with local councils, health service providers, retailers, Citizens Advice Bureau, etc for the delivery of services.
• engage with government departments, service providers and voluntary organisations to develop innovative ways to use post offices to disseminate information and services.
• ensure wherever possible that the national thresholds for access in urban and rural areas are applied proportionately.

Marketing existing services

31. The Committee was informed that the post office has a total of 108 products and that a number of the post masters/mistresses are not familiar with all of them. There is a need, therefore, for greater training of staff and for increased marketing of all the products available to make optimum use of the full range of services.

A ‘one stop shop’ to government and voluntary services

32. Post offices play a pivotal role in the distribution of government information. For example, in relation to healthcare, post offices provide a gateway for low income groups to receive their entitlement to free health care (e.g. post offices supply, collect and provide general information about the HC1, HC2, HC3 and PS7 forms). A significant number of people, particularly older and vulnerable members of society collect their benefits from local post offices. Many other people use local post offices to pay bills and car tax and to access official documents such as passport applications. Respondents, such as the Citizens Advice Bureau have highlighted the importance of the post office as a hub of information on accessing and using government services and believe that there is scope to extend post offices as a convenient and accessible one-stop-shop point of entry for such services.

33. The Committee believes that Post Office Ltd should engage with voluntary and community bodies in order to identify ways in which the services offered by such groups can be incorporated into local post offices. The Citizens Advice Bureau, for example, advocates that there is a benefit in including a CAB kiosk or other similar kiosk in post offices which could be used not only for disseminating information but also for accessing electronic services. Belfast City Council also concurs that the post office needs to take an innovative and imaginative approach to developing services. The Council recommends that post office services should be merged with other existing local services such as credit unions in shopping centres or shared service locations. The Council also recommends that post office branches could use excess space to host other services, particularly internet services.

Recommendation

Post Office Ltd should consult further and more widely in Northern Ireland before deciding upon closures.

Experiences elsewhere

34. The Committee considered the postal services provided in a number of areas, including Essex County Council, where a scheme was introduced to rescue some of their (32) post office branches earmarked for closure. Lord Hanningfield, the leader of Essex County Council, proposed that local authorities (or community groups) be permitted to step in and fund some continuing provision where post office branches are scheduled for closure and no Outreach service is being provided.[1]

35. This intervention was welcomed by the local councils who had been proposing the same measure. It emerged that up to 50 councils were willing to participate, including Leeds, West Sussex, Northamptonshire, Darlington, Durham, Norwich and Lancashire.[2] Pat McFadden, the Post Office Minister supported the proposal, agreeing that branch closures would be delayed to assist councils in taking over post offices, provided that it did not add to the (£150 million) government subsidy of the network.[3]

36. Essex County Council’s plan to generate a profit from existing post offices is based upon the potential to undertake the provision of additional services, examples of which include:

• Combining postal services with council services;
• Local / national government using post offices as centres of information.

37. For Northern Ireland, the model used by Essex County Council might be a feasible consideration; however it is not a devolved matter and the powers of local councils are different in Northern Ireland.

Republic of Ireland

38. The Committee also examined the experience of An Post in the Republic of Ireland. Having been on the brink of financial disaster, An Post, engineered a considerable reversal of its performance. Between 2001 and 2003, it accumulated losses of £67 million[4], and by the end of 2003 it was selling assets and had resorted to an overdraft to fund trading.

39. However, the latest figures, for 2006, showed an after tax profit of EUR 75.7 million (although part of this was attributable to exceptional profit on the sale of a site – the figure excluding this gain was EUR 14.7 million). It is anticipated that the figures for 2007 will reflect further profit growth.[5]

40. The financial turnaround was largely derived from an increased focus on reducing overheads and boosting revenue. To tackle the company’s high cost base greater automation was introduced, non-core businesses were sold (including the loss making SDS delivery business), and work practices were revised.[6]

41. Having addressed internal cost issues, An Post was granted four price increases in the last five years by the regulator Comreg. New revenue streams were also created; a joint venture with Belgian-Dutch bank Fortis has enabled An Post to secure 10,000 savings accounts, and preparations are being put in place to launch a current account. The company also recently secured a contract with eBay to deliver all eBay purchases in Ireland.[7]

42. An Post is currently in the middle of a wide scale review of its post office network with a view to building a network to best serve the needs of society and the economy in the years to come. The review is multi-facetted and is assembling a range of information which will enable An Post to develop and calibrate the network in the future. As this work is underway there is very little information to hand but An Post has stated that it is more than happy to co-operate with the Ad Hoc Committee.

Recommendation

Post Office Ltd should examine services and delivery mechanisms in other countries.

Future

43. The Committee understands that there are likely to be further changes to the post office network after 2011. It is concerned that the long-term outlook for post offices after 2011 is very unclear. The Committee would like to see more transparency in relation to access to Post Office Ltd’s business plans for the Northern Ireland network after 2011.

Recommendation

Post Office Ltd should engage in meaningful, transparent consultation at an early stage on its network plan beyond 2011.

At pre consultation stage Post Office Ltd should contact locally based organisations in each area.

The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform should identify future funding allocations for post offices as a matter of urgency.

Proceedings of the Committee Relating to the Report

Tuesday 29th April 2008
Room 144, Parliament Buildings

Present:
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mrs Naomi Long
Mr Fra McCann
Ms Claire McGill
Mr Stephen Moutray
Mr Robin Newton
Mr George Savage

In Attendance:
Mrs Debbie Pritchard (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Mairead Mageean (Assembly Clerk)
Mr William Long (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Young (Clerical Officer)

Apologies:
Mr Willie Clarke
Mrs Carmel Hanna

The meeting commenced in closed session at 16.06 p.m.with the Clerk in the Chair.

1. Apologies

Apologies are detailed above.

2. Election of Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson

The Clerk asked for nominations for the post of Chairperson.

Trevor Clarke proposed that Robin Newton be Chairperson of this Committee.

Stephen Moutray seconded the proposal.

There were no other proposals.

Agreed: That Robin Newton be elected as Chairperson.

The Chairperson asked for nominations for the post of Deputy Chairperson.

Fra McCann proposed that Willie Clarke (in his absence) be Deputy Chairperson of this Committee.

Mr McCann indicated that Mr Clarke would be willing to accept the post.

Claire McGill seconded the proposal.

There were no other proposals.

Agreed: That Willie Clarke be elected as Deputy Chairperson.

The meeting went into public session at 16.10p.m.

3. Declaration of Interests

The Chairperson asked Members to declare any interest, financial or otherwise, which is relevant to that debate or proceeding, where such interest is held by the Member or an immediate relative, by completing and returning the form at Tab 2 in Members’ packs.

The following Members declared an interest:

• Stephen Moutray declared that he is a sub postmaster.
• Claire McGill declared that she has a close relative who runs a post office.

4. Committee composition and procedures

Members were advised of the composition of the Committee and of the Ad-hoc Committee procedures.

The Committee agreed the procedures attached at Annex A.

Members were advised that they may nominate one deputy per party to attend in the event that the appointed member is unable to attend the Committee meeting.

Naomi Long nominated Anna Lo as a deputy.

5. Committee draft Forward Work Programme

The Clerk briefed Members on the draft Forward Work Programme

Agreed: That Members advise the Committee Clerk of any specific groups they wish to invite to provide evidence.

Agreed: That future Committee meetings start at 16.00p.m.

6. Research paper – overview by Dr Robert Barry, Senior Researcher

Dr Robert Barry briefed Members on the key elements of the information paper on Post Office Closures.

Agreed: Dr Barry to provide further research information for Members.

Mr Dallat joined the meeting at 16.24p.m.

The meeting was adjourned at 16.35p.m. to allow Members to vote in a division during Plenary.

The meeting resumed at 17.10 with the following Members present:
Robin Newton, Fra McCann, Claire McGill, Stephen Moutray and Naomi Long.

Mr Armstrong re-joined the meeting at 17.12p.m.

7. Draft Committee Press Notice

Members considered the draft Committee Press Release.

Agreed: Committee to issue Press Release on Friday 2 May 2008.

8. Any other business

Members expressed concern at the six-week consultation period.

Agreed: Chairperson to write to PO Limited asking for the consultation period to be extended.

9. Date, time and place of next meeting

The next meeting will be held on Tuesday, 6 May 2008 at 16.00p.m. in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 17.15p.m.

Robin Newton
Chairperson, Ad-hoc Committee on Local Postal Services
29 April 2008

Committee Procedures

Annex A

Witnesses

That the Committee should call for evidence from interested bodies.

Voting procedures

That all decisions are made by a simple majority vote by showing of hands unless a member requests otherwise.

Minutes of Evidence

That the uncorrected Minutes of Evidence shall be copied, in confidence, to those members who were unable to attend an evidence session.

Public/Closed meetings

That all evidence sessions shall be heard in public session and all proceedings of the Committee relating to its draft Report shall be in closed session.

Deputies

That the Committee permits the nomination of one deputy per party to attend in the event that the appointed member is unable to attend the Committee meeting.

Tuesday, 6th May 2008
Room 144, Parliament Buildings

Present:
Mr Robin Newton (Chairperson)
Mr Willie Clarke (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mrs Anna Lo
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Mr Adrian McQuillan
Mr George Savage

In Attendance:

Mrs Mairead Mageean (Assembly Clerk)
Miss Eleanor Murphy (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Young (Clerical Officer)
Dr Robert Barry (Assembly Research Service)

Apologies: Mrs Naomi Long

The meeting opened at 4.08pm in public session.

1. Apologies.

Apologies are detailed above.

2. Declaration of Interests.

The Chairperson reminded Members of their obligation to declare any relevant pecuniary or other interests before and during each Committee meeting.

• Mr McQuillan declared that he is currently on a career break from the Post Office.

3. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 29th April 2008.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting of the 29th April.

Mr W Clarke joined the meeting at 4.10pm.

4. Matters Arising.

The Chairperson informed Members that Committee had written to Post Office Ltd and the Secretary of State for the Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory reform requesting an extension to the consultation period and expressing concern about the implication of the closures.

Agreed: Members agreed that the Clerk follow up with Post Office Ltd and the Secretary of State regarding a response to the Committee’s letters.

5. Committee Correspondence.

Members noted receipt of a letter from the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association (NIITRA) and several letters from members of the public regarding the closure of Groomsport Post Office.

6. Research Briefing.

Dr Robert Barry of the Assembly Research Services briefed the Committee on supplementary statistical data relating to the closures.

Mr Dallat joined the meeting at 4.17pm.

The Chairperson suspended the meeting at 4:25pm to allow for plenary division.

The Chairperson reconvened the meeting at 4.37pm with the following Members present:
Mr Robin Newton, Mr Willie Clarke, Mrs Claire McGill, Mr George Savage, Mr Adrian McQuillan, Mrs Anna Lo, Mrs Carmel Hanna, Mr Trevor Clarke, Mr Tom Buchanan.

Mr McCann rejoined the meeting at 4.39pm.

Agreed: Members agreed that Dr Barry seek a meeting with the Post Office to clarify a number of issues relating to the methodology of their statistical data.

7. Evidence Session – Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association.

Mr Armstrong joined the meeting at 5.53pm.

The witnesses joined the meeting at 4.53pm.

Members took evidence from the following witnesses,

Glyn Roberts, Chief Executive, NIIRTA

Charles Henderson, Parkhall Post Office (Antrim)

Liam McGranaghan, Blacks Road Post Office (West Belfast)

Sean Gormley, Carlisle Circus Post Office (North Belfast)

A question and answer session followed presentations from Mr Roberts, Mr Henderson, Mr McGranaghan and Mr Gormley.

Mr Dallat left the meeting at 5.09pm.
Mr T Clarke left the meeting at 5.13pm.
Mr T Clarke rejoined the meeting at 5.15pm.
Mr McCann left the meeting at 5.25pm.
Mr McCann rejoined the meeting at 5.26pm.

The witnesses left the meeting at 5.40pm.

8. Postwatch Submission.

Members noted the presentation submitted by Postwatch.

Agreed: Members agreed to take oral evidence from Postwatch on Monday 12th May, time to be arranged.

9. Any Other Business.

Mr Willie Clarke proposed that the Clerk write to NILGA seeking a written submission to the consultation.

10. Date, time and place of next meeting.

The next meeting will be held on Thursday 8th May, Room 144 at 5:00pm.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 5.48pm.

Mr Robin Newton
Chairperson, Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services.
8th May 2008.

Monday, 12th May 2008
Room 144, Parliament Buildings

Present:
Mr Robin Newton (Chairperson)
Mr Willie Clarke (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Roy Beggs
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mr William Irwin
Mrs Anna Lo
Mr Fra McCann

In Attendance:
Mrs Mairead Mageean (Assembly Clerk)
Miss Eleanor Murphy (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Lynn Gray (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Jonathan Young (Clerical Officer)
Miss Jodie Carson (Assembly Research Service)

Apologies:
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mrs Naomi Long

The meeting opened at 2.32pm in public session.

1. Apologies.

Apologies are detailed above. Mr Beggs attended in place of Mr Armstrong. Mrs Lo attended in place of Mrs Long.

The Chairperson informed Members that Mr William Irwin has replaced Mr Adrian McQuillan as a committee member.

2. Declaration of Interests.

The Chairperson reminded Members of their obligation to declare any relevant pecuniary or other interests before and during each Committee meeting.

3. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 6th May 2008.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting of the 6th May.

Mrs Hanna joined the meeting at 2.35pm.

Mr Buchanan joined the meeting at 2.36pm.

Mr McCann joined the meeting at 2.36pm.

Mr Beggs joined the meeting at 2.37pm.

4. Meeting on the 8th May.

The Chairperson advised Members that a quorum was not reached for the meeting of 8th May but that a number of Members held informal discussions with representatives of Post Office Ltd and the Pharmaceutical Society of Northern Ireland.

The Chairperson drew Members’ attention to the tabled verbatim transcript of the meeting and advised Members that any questions arising from the transcripts should be forwarded to the Clerk.

5. Matters Arising.

Members noted the receipt of an email from An Post declining the Committee’s invitation to provide oral evidence as it is currently engaged in a wide review of its post office network.

Members noted receipt of a letter dated 7th May 2008 from Post Office Ltd declining the Committee’s request to extend the consultation deadline.

6. Evidence Session - Postwatch.

The witnesses joined the meeting at 2.38pm.

Members took evidence from the following witnesses:

• Professor Maureen Edmondson, Chairperson, Postwatch NI
• Kellin McCloskey, Postwatch Network Advisor
• Julie-Anne McMaster, Postwatch Regional Manager

A question and answer session followed the presentation from Postwatch.

Mr W Clarke left the meeting at 3.15pm.
Mr Dallat left the meeting at 3.16pm.
Mr W Clarke rejoined the meeting at 3.24pm.
The witnesses left the meeting at 3.32pm.
Mrs Hanna left the meeting at 3.32pm.
Mrs Lo left the meeting at 3.35pm.

7. Research Briefing.

Jodie Carson of the Assembly Research Services briefed the Committee on her comparative analysis of regional and international countries’ experiences of managing post office closures. A question and answer session followed the briefing. Miss Carson agreed to provide further information to Members on a number of issues.

8. Consultation Reponses.

Members noted the receipt of a number of consultation responses.

9. Correspondence.

Members noted the Clerk’s letter inviting NILGA to provide a written response to the Committee’s consultation.

10. Any Other Business.

The Chairperson asked if Members were content that the statistics produced by the Assembly Research Service be copied to Postwatch.

Agreed: Members agreed that the Assembly Research Service statistics be copied to Postwatch.

The Chairperson informed Members that Wandsworth Community Centre and the Rural Community Network have requested an opportunity to provide oral evidence to the Committee.

Agreed: Members agreed that Wandsworth Community Centre provide evidence at the meeting of 13th May and that the Clerk would check Members’ availability to take oral evidence from the Rural Community Network on 15th May.

11. Date, time and place of next meeting.

The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 13th May, Room 144 at 4:00pm.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 3.48pm.

Mr Robin Newton
Chairperson, Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services.
13th May 2008.

Tuesday, 13th May 2008
Room 144, Parliament Buildings

Present:
Mr Robin Newton (Chairperson)
Mr Roy Beggs
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Mrs Anna Lo
Mr George Savage

In Attendance:
Mrs Mairead Mageean (Assembly Clerk)
Miss Eleanor Murphy (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Lynn Gray (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Jonathan Young (Clerical Officer)
Dr Robert Barry (Assembly Research Service)

Apologies:
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mr Willie Clarke
Mrs Naomi Long

The meeting opened at 4.04pm in public session.

1. Apologies.

Apologies are detailed above. Mr Beggs attended in place of Mr Armstrong. Mrs Lo attended in place of Mrs Long.

2. Declaration of Interests.

The Chairperson reminded Members of their obligation to declare any relevant pecuniary or other interests before and during each Committee meeting.

3. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 12th May 2008.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting of the 12th May.

4. Matters Arising.

Mr Savage joined the meeting at 4.06pm.
Mr Dallat joined the meeting at 4.07pm.

The Chairperson asked about Members’ availability take oral evidence from the Rural Community Network on Thursday 15th May 2008.

5. Evidence Session – Citizens Advice Bureau.

The witnesses joined the meeting at 4.11pm.

Members took evidence from the following witnesses:

Mr Paul Herink, Director of Information and Policy Unit, Citizens Advice Bureau.

Mr Andrew Murie, Information and Policy Officer, Citizens Advice Bureau.

A question and answer session followed the presentation from Mr Herink and Mr Murie.

Mrs McGill joined the meeting at 4.20pm.
Mrs Hanna joined the meeting at 4.25pm.
Mr McCann joined the meeting at 4.30pm.
Mrs Hanna left the meeting at 4.32pm.
Mr Buchanan left the meeting at 4.30pm.
Mr Buchanan rejoined the meeting at 4.32pm.
The witnesses left the meeting at 4.42pm.

6. Research Briefing.

Dr Robert Barry of the Assembly Research Services briefed the Committee on his meeting with Post Office Ltd regarding their statistical findings.

Agreed: Members requested that Dr Barry provide the Committee with a summary of his research findings.

Agreed: Members agreed that Dr Barry’s research be shared with Postwatch and anyone else requesting them.

7. Evidence Session – Help the Aged.

The witnesses joined the meeting at 4.51pm.

Members took evidence from the following witnesses:

Mr Duane Farrell, Head of Policy, Research and Communications, Help the Aged.

Ms Ciara Convie, Head of Community Development and Services, Help the Aged.

A question and answer session followed the presentation from Mr Farrell and Ms Convie.

The Chairperson suspended the meeting at 5:11pm to allow for plenary division.

The Chairperson reconvened the meeting at 4.37pm with the following Members present:

Mr Robin Newton, Mr Roy Beggs, Mr John Dallat, Mrs Anna Lo, Mr Fra McCann and Mr George Savage.

Mr T Clarke rejoined the meeting at 5.26pm.

Mrs McGill joined the meeting at 5.29pm.

The witnesses left the meeting at 5.30pm.

8. Evidence Session – Wandsworth Community Centre.

The witnesses joined the meeting at 5.31pm.

Members took evidence from the following witnesses:

Mr Stephen Crosby, Community Development Worker, Wandsworth Community Centre.

Ms Alison Smith, Community Development Worker, Wandsworth Community Centre.

Ms Yvonne Morrison, Member of the Public.

A question and answer session followed the presentation by Mr Crosby.

Mr T Clarke left the meeting at 5.50pm.

The witnesses left the meeting at 6.05pm.

9. Consultation Responses.

Members noted receipt of a consultation response from Belfast City Council.

10. Correspondence.

The Chairperson advised Members that further letters have been received from Groomsport residents regarding the closure of their post office.

11. Any Other Business.

The Chairperson advised Members of the request that the statistics produced by Assembly Research Services be used in a presentation by Research Services to the Environmental Systems Research Institute (ESRI).

Agreed: Members agreed that the statistics could be used in a presentation to the ESRI.

12. Date, time and place of next meeting.

The next meeting will be held on Thursday 15th May, Room and Time to be arranged.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 6.09pm.

MR ROBIN NEWTON
Chairperson, Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services.
15th May 2008.

Thursday, 15th May 2008
Room 106, Parliament Buildings

Present:
Mr Robin Newton (Chairperson)
Mr Roy Beggs
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Thomas Burns
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Mr George Savage

In Attendance:
Mrs Mairead Mageean (Assembly Clerk)
Miss Eleanor Murphy (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Carla Campbell (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Lynn Gray (Clerical Supervisor)

Apologies:
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mr Willie Clarke
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mr William Irwin
Mrs Naomi Long

The meeting opened at 1.08pm in public session.

1. Apologies.

Apologies are detailed above. Mr Beggs attended in place of Mr Armstrong. Mr Burns attended in place of Mr Dallat.

2. Declaration of Interests.

The Chairperson reminded Members of their obligation to declare any relevant pecuniary or other interests before and during each Committee meeting.

3. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 13th May 2008.

Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting of the 13th May.

4. Matters Arising.

The Chairperson drew Members’ attention to two tabled papers from Assembly Research Services.

5. Evidence Session – Rural Community Network.

The witnesses joined the meeting at 1.10pm.

Mr Beggs declared an interest as a member of Glynn Community Development Association which has received funding from the Rural Community Network.

Members took evidence from the following witnesses:
Mr Michael Hughes, Chief Executive.
Mr Mark Allan, Research Officer.
Ms Karin Eyben, Policy Officer.

A question and answer session followed the presentation from the Rural Community Network.

Mr Savage joined the meeting at 1:32pm.
Mr McCann left the meeting at 1.35pm.
The witnesses left the meeting at 1.59pm.

6. Consultation Responses.

Members noted receipt of a written submission by Down District Council.

7. Committee Report.

The Chairperson advised Members that any suggestions on the findings and recommendations of the report should be forwarded to the Clerk as soon as possible.

Mr Beggs left the meeting at 2.05pm.

8. Any Other Business.

The Chairperson advised Members that the closing date for responses to the Committee enquiry was 12:00pm on Friday 16th May and that the Committee would need to meet on Tuesday 20th May to agree submissions and the motion for plenary.

The Chairperson further advised Members that the Committee would also need to meet on Wednesday 21st May to agree the full report.

The Chairperson informed Members that Postcomm has requested a meeting with Members on Thursday 29th May.

9. Date, time and place of next meeting.

The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 20th May, Room 135 at 12:30pm.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 2.12pm.

MR ROBIN NEWTON
Chairperson, Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services.
20th May 2008.

Tuesday, 20th May 2008
Room 106, Parliament Buildings

Present:
Mr Robin Newton (Chairperson)
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mr William Irwin
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Mr George Savage

In Attendance:
Mrs Mairead Mageean (Assembly Clerk)
Miss Wendy Young (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Young (Clerical Officer)

Apologies: Mr Willie Clarke

The meeting opened at 12.35pm in closed session.

1. Apologies

Apologies are detailed above.

2. Declaration of Interests

The chairperson reminded members of their obligation to declare any relevant pecuniary or other interests before and during each committee meeting.

3. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 15th May 2008

Agreed: the draft minutes of the meeting held on 15th May were agreed.

4. Matters arising

There were no matters arising.

5. Consultation responses

Mr McCann joined the meeting at 12.38pm.

Mr Buchanan joined the meeting at 12.43pm.

Agreed: Members noted the consultation responses from individuals and organisations and agreed their inclusion in the report.

6. Research Paper

The committee noted and discussed the research paper on potential funding sources.

Mr Irwin joined the meeting at 12:49pm.

7. Members’ input to the Committee’s report

Mrs Hanna left the meeting at 1:02pm.

The chairperson drew the committee’s attention to the draft report findings and recommendations.

Agreed: The committee considered and agreed amendments to the report findings and recommendations.

8. Committee Motion

Agreed: The committee considered and agreed amendments to the revised motion for plenary tabled at the meeting.

8. Any Other Business

There was no other business.

9. Date, time and place of next meeting.

The next meeting will be held on Wednesday, 21st May 2008 at 1.30pm in Room 21 Parliament Buildings.

The chairperson adjourned the meeting at 1.40pm.

MR ROBIN NEWTON
Chairperson, Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services.
21st May 2008.

Wednesday, 21st May 2008
Room 21, Parliament Buildings

Present:
Mr Robin Newton (Chairperson)
Mr Roy Beggs
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mr William Irwin
Mrs Naomi Long
Mrs Claire McGill

In Attendance:
Mrs Mairead Mageean (Assembly Clerk)
Miss Eleanor Murphy (Assistant Clerk)
Mr Jonathan Young (Clerical Officer)
Dr Robert Barry (Assembly Research Services)

Apologies:
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mr Willie Clarke
Mr Fra McCann
Mr George Savage

The meeting opened at 1.39pm in closed session.

1. Apologies.

Apologies are detailed above. Mr Beggs attended in place of Mr Savage.

2. Declaration of Interests.

The chairperson reminded members of their obligation to declare any relevant pecuniary or other interests before and during each committee meeting.

3. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 20th May 2008.

Agreed: the draft minutes of the meeting held on 20th May were agreed.

Mr Dallat joined the meeting at 1.42pm.

4. Matters arising.

There were no matters arising.

5. Research Brief.

Mr Irwin joined the meeting at 1.44pm.

Dr Robert Barry of the Assembly Research Services provided an update on his engagement with Post Office Ltd and Postwatch in relation to the access criteria methodology. Dr Barry noted that both Postwatch and Post Office Ltd had been helpful in regards to the discussions he had with them.

Members noted Dr Barry’s research brief on a further analysis of the post office access criteria. Members noted the letter of response from Post Office Ltd to the Assembly Research Services statistical analysis.

Agreed: Members agreed that the Dr Barry’s research paper and the Post Office Ltd’s letter of response be included in the Committee report.

6. Consideration of Draft Committee Report.

The Committee considered the executive summary of the report.

Paragraph 1 – read, amended and agreed.

Paragraphs 2 – read and agreed.

The Committee considered the main body of the report.

Mrs Long left the meeting at 2.14pm.

Paragraphs 3 to 7 – read and agreed.

Paragraphs 8 to 12 – read and agreed.

Paragraphs 13 to 17 – read and agreed.

Paragraphs 18 to 23 – read and agreed.

Paragraphs 24 to 27 – read and agreed.

Paragraphs 28 to 31 – read and agreed.

Paragraphs 32 to 38 – read and agreed.

Paragraphs 39 to 42 – read and agreed.

Paragraph 43 – read, amended and agreed.

Agreed: Members agreed to embargo the report until the commencement of debate in plenary.

Agreed: Members agreed that the Chairperson signs the minutes of the meeting on behalf of the Committee to allow them to be included in the printed report.

Agreed: Members ordered the report to be printed.

7. Press Release.

Members considered the draft press release.

Agreed: Members agreed the draft press release subject to a number of amendments.

Mr Dallat left the meeting at 2.28pm.

8. Any Other Business.

The Chairperson advised Members that the draft report was scheduled to be debated in plenary on 2 June 2008.

The Chairperson reminded Members of the meeting with Postcomm on Thursday, 29th May at 2.30pm.

9. Date, time and place of next meeting.

Thursday, 29th May, 2.30, room to be arranged.

The chairperson adjourned the meeting at 2.40pm.

MR ROBIN NEWTON
Chairperson, Ad Hoc Committee on Local Postal Services.
21st May 2008.

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

6 May 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Robin Newton (Chairperson)
Mr Billy Armstrong
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Mr Trevor Clarke
Mr Willie Clarke
Mr John Dallat
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Ms Anna Lo
Mr Adrian McQuillan
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Mr George Savage

Witnesses:

Mr Sean Gormley Mr Charles Henderson Mr Liam McGranaghan Mr Glyn Roberts

Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association

1. The Chairperson (Mr Newton): I welcome representatives of the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association (NIIRTA), led by Glyn Roberts.

2. Mr Glyn Roberts (Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association): I thank the Chairperson and Committee members for seeing us so soon. Bearing in mind the extent of the problems that we face, we welcome the fact that the Assembly acted with such speed to set up this Committee. I have been in contact with the Committee Clerk several times, and I assure the Committee of our full support in providing any information that we can. I have been able to assist the Committee in obtaining information from Essex County Council — I shall return to that matter later.

3. I am accompanied by Sean Gormley, who runs the Carlisle Circus post office and a convenience store that is based there; Liam McGranaghan, who runs the Blacks Road post office and a retail store; and Charles Henderson, who runs the Parkhall post office and a convenience store. Charles is standing in for his sister, Elaine Murdock.

4. All three businesses that are represented today are earmarked for closure, which will result in the loss of 76 jobs. That is an important statistic, which we want to make clear from the outset.

5. Although we understand the commercial realities, it is disappointing to us that so many post offices are going to close. That is a blow not just for local communities, but for the local economy. As many members will be aware from their constituencies, post offices are useful in generating footfall for local businesses. For example, people who cash benefits and pensions at a post office may subsequently shop there, or perhaps go to a nearby newsagent, baker, etc. If that post office closes, that footfall is lost.

6. All three representatives with me today run convenience stores. Several years ago, the Post Office said that, in future, it wanted its network to move into convenience stores. One can imagine the obvious annoyance and disgust among our members when they were told that they had to close their post offices.

7. It is important to point out that the closure of post offices is clearly connected to the decline of small, local high-street shops, which have already had to put up with disastrous out-of-town planning applications and the anti-competitive practices of the big multiple stores. We outlined those problems in our recent report, ‘Nightmare on every Street’, which we launched at Stormont a few weeks ago.

8. Six NIIRTA members are affected by post office closures. All six run convenience stores, which will all have to close down entirely if their post office outlets are withdrawn. The loss of the convenience store and the post office represents a double blow to the local community. Just under 50% of people who will be affected by the proposed post office closures are small retailers of some type. If they are forced to close, well over 200 people who are employed in post office outlets and in the convenience stores could lose their jobs — that is a conservative estimate.

9. In order to tackle the problem, it is important that the Committee and NIIRTA make proposals and offer possible solutions. First, however, it is important to state that it is nonsense to expect anyone to be able to fully consider the problem in the space of six weeks. That is a joke. I understand where that notion comes from: it is the UK Government, not Royal Mail. Six weeks is not even half the time that is required to consider the situation. Indeed, a Committee researcher has told us that we are only scratching the surface of the negative impacts that the closures will have on the community as a whole.

10. I suggest that the Committee examine several areas of concern. The Assembly should actively consider the Welsh small-business rates-relief scheme as part of any investigation of the long-term viability of post offices and other small retailers and businesses in the high street. The Economic Research Institute of Northern Ireland (ERINI) recently carried out an investigation into the case for a small-business rates-relief scheme in Northern Ireland, and published a report on that subject. The Welsh scheme began by helping rural post offices to survive, and it was extended as a result. That was a demonstration of the commitment of the Welsh Assembly to helping indigenous small businesses, particularly in disadvantaged rural areas.

11. Bearing in mind the extent of the threat to the high street that I have already mentioned, the Department of the Environment must publish planning policy statement (PPS) 5 as soon as possible. The high-street stores have to contend with the anti-competitive practices of Tesco and unfair planning decisions that are clearly biased in favour of the big multiple stores. We should also ask Departments whether there are services within their remit that they could provide to the post offices to ensure that more people do business there. During my time in my previous job with the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB), I became aware that many small businesses still used their local post office as a bank.

12. Our main proposal is similar to one that was made by Essex County Council on post office subsidies. I was able to obtain some information from Essex County Council, copies of which have been distributed to members. Without going into much detail, the council decided to spend £1·5 million in order to save 15 threatened rural and urban post offices. That move was approved by the UK Minister for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs, Pat McFadden MP, and has attracted interest across the UK. I spoke to a representative of Essex County Council this morning who told me that the Scottish and Welsh Governments have also registered their interest in such a move.

13. The proposal involved taking over the subsidy that many post offices received from the Post Office and, indirectly, from the Government, for a three-year period, which worked out at £18,000 for each post office. However, the scheme was aimed at ensuring that, at the end of that three-year period, all of the post offices would be economically viable. If issues such as small-business rates relief, examining how Departments can offer more help to post offices, and tackling the underinvestment in our high streets were addressed, many of the post offices could be self-sufficient within that time frame.

14. The Executive could introduce such a proposal, and there could be a discussion about which Department would hold responsibility. The money could be distributed from the Department of Finance and Personnel and administered by local authorities. However, the details may require further discussion.

15. Chairperson, you will be aware of the fact that Invest Northern Ireland subsidises foreign call centres in Northern Ireland to the tune off many millions of pounds. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to ask the Northern Ireland Executive do likewise for small businesses — given their role in the local community and their contribution to the economy — to ensure that they continue to provide services, limit job losses, and ensure that they eventually become self-sufficient.

16. I shall now invite my colleagues to outline the situation in which they find themselves.

17. The Chairperson: It is likely that members may have to leave for a Division in the Chamber and, rather than have to cut you off in your prime, I ask you limit your time — without wishing to take anything away from the presentations.

18. Mr Charles Henderson (Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association): I am the sub-postmaster of the post office at Parkhall shopping centre. Last year, my post office won a UK award, and the Post Office arranged to fly myself and my wife to the Celtic Manor resort, where we were named Northern Ireland regional winners for sales growth. Our post office had the highest sales growth of any of the community post offices in Northern Ireland. We competed with six other regions in the UK and, fortunately, we walked away with the top award for the whole of the UK.

19. My salary has increased by about 50% over the past two years, and our customer numbers have increased by at least 40%. Then I received a letter from Post Office Ltd to say that my post office was closing. That came totally out of the blue. I had thought that, after winning the award, there was a good chance that the hard work that I had put in and the money that I had invested would ensure that my post office was safe and that I could grow the business.

20. I am still in shock as I give this presentation to the Committee. No one in Post Office Ltd appears to be listening. It has its criteria, and it has allowed a six-week window in which to make representations. However, I have only managed to arrange this meeting to speak to local representatives. I have tried very hard to invest money in deprived areas, mainly due to peace in the country and the good job that is being done at Stormont. I took that risk because I saw that there was an opportunity for peace, and I wanted to invest in the community where I live. I am investing my money and employing local people, yet I am being told that that is not good enough because of criteria set down at Westminster.

21. I would like to challenge those criteria. I cannot make accusations, because I do not have the resources that the Assembly has, but I would like to know whether those criteria were measured properly. I urge the Assembly to use every research tool available to ensure that the criteria that are being employed are the criteria that were set. I hate to think that my post office is being closed simply because the criteria were not applied properly. That is something that I have already picked up from this meeting, which is helpful.

22. Post offices are important for local people. I feel sorry for the pensioners. There were approximately 40 pensioners at our recent local public meeting, and they wanted to know what they had done to the Government or their local representatives that resulted in them paying more for food and travel, and which meant that they were now being asked to travel an extra two or three miles to lift their money. They do not have cars. They want to know what they have done to deserve that treatment. We should be looking after the pensioners and young families. The pensioners are here today because of what they have done in the past, and the young people are the future. However, we are standing on the sidelines and making their lives more difficult.

23. The post office is the hub of a community; it is where people meet, talk and solve their problems. All communities will be affected by the post office closures. The best thing to come out of the problem is that all the representatives have met and spoke together with one voice. I want to tell that to Post Office Ltd. They are civil servants; I remind the Committee that the Post Office is paid by the Government and told what to do by the Government. Gordon Brown has made a lot of mistakes, and he has been embarrassed over the abolition of the 10p tax band, for instance.

24. We must stand up and say that Northern Ireland will not accept the closures. The post office is at the heart of our community, and we cannot let that go. Not everyone can go to Tesco; we must keep the hub of the community in the community. Everyone who is sitting around this table has a big part to play.

25. Mr Liam McGranaghan (Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association): I represent the Blacks Road post office, and I also own the site on which the post office is located. We have operated there for 10 to 12 years, and our post office serves all communities. We are in the hub of the communities — between the Protestant community in the Suffolk area and in Brook, and all around Blacks Road.

26. My colleagues and I are business people, and we know that any decisions that have been made should have been based on the commercial viability of the businesses. The post office at Blacks Road provides a take-home pay of between £45,000 and £48,000, and it has 1,000 to 1,500 customers a week. It does not make any sense to close it.

27. The criteria states that 95% of the population should be within one mile of a post office. We are located between the Dunmurry post office — which is 1·1 miles from us — and the Stewartstown Road post office. We are building a future for our children. We have all been through the past, and we can see the future. The closure of the Blacks Road post office might kick off trouble again in the area.

28. There is a post office at the bottom of the road, which faces Suffolk and Lenadoon. The Catholics in the area have made it clear that, in the current climate, they do not feel comfortable walking through the estate, and they will not do it. They would have to go through Brook, Willowvale and Riverdale to get to the post office — a total of 1·6 miles. Local Catholics have also made it clear that they would not feel comfortable going to Dunmurry post office in the other direction, because flags are flying during the marching seasons, and they would feel intimidated. They have made that clear.

29. The majority of the Protestant community have said that they do not use the Stewartstown Road post office at the local Costcutter, because they are afraid of being targeted from Lenadoon. The Blacks Road post office provides a happy medium. It is also a healthy site. Dunmurry post office does not have any parking facilities, and it displays a notice that states that prams will not be admitted. Are people expected to leave their prams outside?

30. We have 22 car-parking spaces, one disabled car-parking space, a low-level entrance to the shop and automatic doors. Everything is there for customers, so the decision just does not make sense.

31. There is an old folks’ home that is a lock of yards away from the site, on which there is a BP petrol station with a substantial shop, which is an integral part of the business. According to projected figures from our accountant, if the post office side of the business is removed, a minimum of 5% will be lost from the bottom line, which equates to £22,000. A 5% reduction is quite substantial, but it could possibly be 10%, which equates to £44,000. The 40 staff who work on the site could then drop to between 15 and 17. Therefore, the economy will suffer.

32. Many businesses use the site to deposit money because it is safe and secure, with digital cameras and security on the door. As a result, they feel content to come in to deposit money. We are also self-sufficient; we do not take any cash from the Post Office, bar change, because we pay out the money that comes in. There is no aggregate cost involved. Therefore, basing the reason for closure on distance does not stack up.

33. There is a similar BP site on the Stewartstown Road. I asked the Post Office’s network development manager, Sheila McCann, why the decision was made, and she could not answer me. I pressed her on the issue, and still she could not answer. The Stewartstown Road BP site, and the Dairy Farm post office across the street, which are right beside each other, are not earmarked for closure, but we are.

34. Blacks Road has developed immensely, as Mr McCann will know. The Visteon Ford factory sold off a bit of land and houses were built there at Mayfield Square. There is outline planning permission for 240 houses on another piece of land that the company has sold. There is a nursing home on the road. There are chimney pots everywhere. The road is used by the young, the elderly, and businesses because it is a central part of the community. I am shocked at what Post Office Ltd has done, and it cannot provide a reason. The branch is a major cross-community hub in the area, and Post Office Ltd is pushing it away.

35. Mr Sean Gormley (Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association): My business was burned out in 2000, and I decided to try to extend the enterprise and to get back into business. I approached Post Office Ltd when I learned that lower Donegall Street post office was closing. They were glad of the enthusiasm that was shown for a new post office at Carlisle Circus, because it would be a cross-community facility.

36. I have been at Carlisle Circus for 23 years, through some of the worst of the Troubles. I was recognised as representing the ideal cross-community solution because I had stood up and defended what was mine. Post Office Ltd loved the fact that people from both sides of the community, from the lower Shankill area and the lower Antrim Road, use the branch. Carlisle Circus was always known as no-man’s-land, belonging to neither one side nor the other. Post Office Ltd liked the fact that I was claiming that site for both communities.

37. When I opened the branch in 2003, Allan Leighton, who had just been appointed Chairman of Royal Mail, visited us and said that the branch was the perfect example of a cross-community enterprise because of the way in which it was fitted into the back of the shop and integrated into society. When I was burned out in 2000, every business in Carlisle Circus subsequently closed or folded as a result of the Troubles. In 2003, I reopened my own off-licence business, before extending into the convenience sector, the post office, and the bar. Six other businesses have opened around Carlisle Circus, and the area has been totally regenerated in the past four years.

38. Carlisle Circus is a main arterial route into Belfast, which has recently been refurbished, with assistance from Belfast City Council. Employment through the post office, in my own small shop, has helped to generate 20 jobs. That has extended to the surrounding businesses, and that is what makes a community.

39. Patients from the nearby Mater Hospital use the post office and the shop. Residents of Clifton House — which was redeveloped from a residential home into sheltered accommodation for the elderly — also use the business. Those people are not confined to Clifton House, but they can leave only in controlled circumstances, and some of the residents are disabled and require 24-hour care.

40. If Carlisle Circus post office is closed, people will have to travel through the lower Shankill estate, up the Antrim Road, past Duncairn, up to the waterworks, through nationalist areas — and they do not feel safe doing that. Vice versa, people from the lower Antrim Road cannot be expected to go over to the Shankill. They may be in a better position to do that, but I do not think that it is fair that people have an unfair advantage in respect of where they can chose to collect their money because of where they live.

41. There are other post offices in the area which happen to open later and close earlier — Tesco post office at Yorkgate, for example. If we sub-postmasters tried to dictate our opening hours, the post offices would be taken from us straight away, but Tesco can get away with it. I do not believe that that is fair. In fact, it is a disgrace.

42. The Chairperson: Do members wish to ask questions of any of the delegation?

43. Mrs McGill: Glyn, what about the post offices in the west? Do you have any members in that area? I wish to comment on my concerns later. I would like to know about the situation in the west.

44. Mr Roberts: I have been in discussion with Vincent McGirr, who runs a Costcutter store and post office in Strathroy, and is a member of NIIRTA. We have discussed the six post offices that we are immediately responsible for, which includes Dungannon, West Tyrone, and east Belfast, as well as the three that are represented today. There is a much wider problem than one that affects six post offices. There are a number of post offices that, in order to survive, have taken on responsibilities and become small retailers in their own right. Some of them have grown as a result of that.

45. The danger is that, if the closures go ahead, up to 200 businesses could be affected. I think that a lot more than that will go. I keep in touch with Vincent McGirr in Strathroy, and I know that he has been talking to and working with MLAs in west Tyrone.

46. Mrs McGill: Could you elaborate on the post offices that are not closing — the ones that are having to put in place new arrangements?

47. Mr Roberts: At this stage, the major issue is the need to highlight what is happening with the 42 post offices that are earmarked for closure. We do not represent all of them, but the six closures that are represented here will grow to 42, and then up to 96, which is the final figure. If they all close, it will have a huge impact on local communities and on the local economy.

48. Many of those small businesses are struggling anyway, and the additional pressure on them is simply unacceptable. This is just as much a community issue as an economic issue. Small businesses need to see the Assembly working for them and, although it is very important — particularly this week, when we are trying to attract foreign investment to Northern Ireland —indigenous small businesses that have experienced many difficult times over the past three to five years should not be forgotten. Those people have kept their heads down, they have provided jobs and a service to the community. That has been mentioned by my colleagues today.

49. Now that we have much greater political stability, postmasters cannot understand why this is happening. Their post offices are being closed down, but anti-competitive practices and bad planning systems are still in place — factors that favour the big multiples.

50. Mr F McCann: Mr Gormley has mentioned the fact that post offices act as a catalyst for providing regeneration, particularly in north Belfast. However, there are sub-postmasters who want to move. What happens then in the communities that they serve? Should we be arguing for such post offices to be moved on to a new sub-postmaster?

51. Mrs Hanna: Thank you for your presentation. The information that you have provided helps us because we need to be as well informed as possible. Challenging the criteria is very important. I asked Peter Robinson in the Chamber about the rates relief issue, and he agreed with me. I also asked him what other measures he might consider. Mr Robinson gave a long, positive response. Several matters were mentioned, but nothing definite was agreed. I will need to review exactly what was said by Mr Robinson because the response was so lengthy. However, I detect a willingness on the part of the Executive to be more helpful in relation to these matters, and we need to exploit that.

52. Mr Roberts: As a result of the closure programme, there are postmasters who want to take the money and close down. Essex County Council had a number of postmasters in the same position. The 15 that they decided to save did not include those postmasters who wanted to close. There may not be an easy solution to any of this, but we believe that the Essex County Council model may have a positive impact and it is the best option that is on the table at the moment.

53. In response to Mrs Hanna’s point, Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that does not currently have a small-business rates-relief scheme. I was very disappointed with the ERINI report, which went to great lengths to suggest that Northern Ireland did not require rates relief for small businesses.

54. Small businesses and retailers have some of the highest insurance costs, energy costs and levels of business crime in the UK. We currently do not have a small-business rates-relief scheme, and that should be a priority for the Department of Finance and Personnel.

55. Mrs Hanna: Mr Robinson has responded positively on that issue.

56. Mr Roberts: Yes. I hoped that your counterparts in the Committee for Finance and Personnel would take on that issue, and I understand that that is now the case.

57. Mr W Clarke: When you made your representations to Post Office Ltd, how did they react?

58. Mr Gormley: They said that it was a done deal. It did not matter what we said to them.

59. Mr W Clarke: Did they make that response as an organisation, or as individuals?

60. Mr Gormley: They took no interest — it did not matter what we said. It was like water off a duck’s back to them.

61. Mr Roberts: This brings into question why they had a consultation at all.

62. Mr Henderson: That was to save face. They were just going through the motions.

63. Mr W Clarke: Has the consultation been very poor?

64. Mr Roberts: It has been ridiculous. In the course of doing my job, I respond to consultations all the time. Generally, in a consultation process, some matters are fixed and some are not. However, if the decks are going to be stacked so completely against us, what is the purpose of a consultation process? Furthermore, what is the point in Post Office Ltd holding meetings and briefings with various Committees in the Assembly, and with Ministers, if it has already made the decision on post office closures?

65. Mr Gormley: Post Office Ltd based their decisions partly on the population in areas around the post offices. There is a great deal of redevelopment currently ongoing at Carlisle Circus, including the 26-acre site at the former Girdwood Barracks, which will be redeveloped for social housing and other amenities.

66. Henry Place and Carrick Hill are also in that area. Those areas have never been viable for redevelopment, but they are viable now because of peace in Northern Ireland. There are masses of brownfield sites in the lower Shankill area that will be redeveloped for social housing. Post offices are there to help the clientele who use social housing. Those people are our bread and butter, but that has never been brought into the equation.

67. The Chairperson: I understand that part of the criteria was that potential for additional housing or business growth would be taken into account.

68. Mr Roberts: It appears that those criteria have not been applied.

69. Mr T Clarke: Some of the questions have been of a parochial nature, so I will continue in that vein. Charles Henderson’s post office is in my constituency. I attended a public meeting at which Parkhall post office and Greystone post office were represented. Although Northern Ireland is coming out of conflict, people are being forced to go into areas to which they do not want to go. Statistics show that antisocial behaviour is worse in Greystone than anywhere else in Antrim, and people are being asked to leave Parkhall to use that area.

70. When post office closures were being considered in GB, it was not necessary to take into account the same problems that exist here due to the conflict. No dispensation was made because of that. Perhaps Charles Henderson could better explain the situation at Greystone post office. At the recent public meeting, he said that Parkhall was the award-winning post office in the area. Is it correct that Greystone post office would have preferred to close, and that it was not making a profit?

71. Mr Henderson: That is absolutely correct.

72. Mr T Clarke: That proves that the location and viability of businesses has not been considered.

73. Mr Savage: We have heard all the arguments that the Post Office has put forward about why certain branches will be closed. The entire Committee backs you to the hilt in your efforts to keep your businesses open. Is there anything that the Committee should do to help your case?

74. Mr Henderson: The main decisions were made at Westminster, before devolved Government got up and running. Westminster will listen to the devolved Government, and Glyn Roberts has set a model that is based on funding from councils. Northern Rock went bankrupt, and it cost every man, woman and child in the UK £1,700 each to subsidise that bank. The cost of subsidising our small post offices that are to close could be measured in pennies.

75. In the UK, the cost of subsidising every post office in the UK to keep them all open for ever would be £5 per person. How does one value Northern Rock? How do members feel about paying £1,700 to keep a bank going, when it would cost £5 to save the post offices? The Government are using £1,700 from you and me to subsidise Northern Rock. That is a massive amount of money, yet people seem to be saying that that is all right. This issue should be raised at Westminster to draw the distinction between £1,700 to alleviate the problems of Northern Rock and £5 to subsidise post offices, which mean more to the community. That point must be sold to the Government at Westminster.

76. Mr Savage: A post office is often a lifeline and the contact to the outside world for an elderly person. It may be the only place that a person in a wheelchair can go for a bit of craic.

The impact that closures will have, especially on elderly people, will be unbelievable.

77. Mr Henderson: We seem to be doing everything that we can to disrupt the lives of elderly people. What have elderly people done to us, that we are treating them in this way?

78. The Chairperson: Trevor made the point that another post office is sited in close proximity to yours. I do not know whether it is appropriate to speak on its behalf or not.

79. Mr Henderson: I did try, Chairman.

80. Mr Roberts: To answer Mr Savage’s question: one action that the Committee could take would be to consider seriously the Essex County Council proposal, and, if agreeable, ascertain what room for manoeuvre the Minister of Finance and Personnel has locally. The paper that I provided to the Committee contains a question that Lord Hanningfield, the leader of Essex County Council, asked the Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, Lord Digby Jones. His response to the proposal was as follows: “However, Post Office Ltd is putting in place a process for responding to serious expressions of interest and where a firm proposal for local funding emerges, Post Office Ltd will delay physical closure of the existing branch in that locality for a stipulated period to allow both funding and a contract to be put in place.”

81. Clearly time is a factor, so we must move very quickly if the Essex County Council proposal is to be a runner here. Were the proposal adopted, it would be possible to delay some of the proposed closures to allow more time for a considered view of the issues — for example, which Department should take the lead; whether local councils should be responsible for the administration of the scheme; and what the criteria should be. Given that the consultation period will last for only a few more weeks, the Committee could ascertain the views of the Department of Finance and Personnel as a matter of priority.

82. Mrs McGill: Glyn, you and the others said that the consultation is practically meaningless. I would have pushed for an extension of the consultation period, but you seem to believe that there is no point in that.

83. Mr Roberts: We have said that, at the very least, the consultation should last for 12 weeks. The response to the parliamentary question seems to suggest that the only way in which we can delay closures is to find alternative funding. Serious proposals for alternative funding may be our only way forward.

84. Mr T Clarke: I think that Glyn means that there should be meaningful consultation for 12 weeks, as opposed to six weeks of consultation on a done deal. Is that what you are saying, Glyn?

85. Mrs McGill: I am not sure that he was saying that. When he spoke, Charles was nodding, and I got the sense that he did not agree.

86. Mr Roberts: Six weeks is not a lot of time. There does not seem to be any indication that Royal Mail will move on this issue at all. We must come up with solutions that Royal Mail cannot ignore, and the Committee has an important role to play in finding those solutions.

87. Mr Gormley: When Royal Mail notified us about this matter, we were not allowed to breathe a word about it until 1 April, because to do so would have broken our contracts. We were not even able to put any proposal in place to try to counteract what was happening and to speed up the appeals process. We were not allowed to do anything until 1 April, so the situation was unfair from the outset.

88. Mrs McGill: I am still unclear as to whether the Committee should push for an extension of the consultation period.

89. The Chairperson: Just for clarity; the Committee pushed for an extension at last week’s meeting. Members decided to write to both the Government and the Post Office to indicate that we were dissatisfied with the six-week consultation period and to call for an extension. As was mentioned at the start of the meeting, the Committee has not yet received a reply to either of those letters. The Committee Clerk will make some telephone calls tomorrow to find out when we will receive responses.

90. Ms Lo: I had a meeting with Arthur Magee of Royal Mail last week. He seems to believe that, because our consultation is tied in with the overall UK consultation — the deadline for which is 12 May — the Committee will not be granted its request for an extension of the consultation. That was his view, at any rate.

91. He also said that, if we are to make submissions, there is no point in arguing on the basis of how many people are opposed to it, or how many elderly people are going to lose the services — we have to work on meeting the four criteria. I agree with that. When the changes were proposed in England, consideration was not given to our special circumstances, namely people’s not feeling safe about having to travel to a different community in order to access a post office. That is a key point on which we should be focusing.

92. The Chairperson: Glyn, do you wish to say anything?

93. Mr Roberts: I want to reinforce my support for the model that has been introduced in Essex — that may well be a serious runner. As Lord Digby Jones has suggested, the Post Office and the Government may be willing to suspend the closure programme if there were serious evidence of alternative funding being put in place. That is the real priority for the Executive, and they need to get their skates on if they genuinely want to save the post offices.

94. Mr T Clarke: Although I am not dismissing Glyn’s suggestion, I have a problem with the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that the post offices that are being closed are costing money. If a post office is making money, we should not have to fund it. I am not trying to knock Glyn’s suggestion, but I am unclear as to why we are making a case to Westminster to promote that model, which I believe is unfair. I read each of the submissions, and they all include profit-making post offices that are not costing the Exchequer any money. The submissions should be focusing on the post offices that are costing money, and asking why they are being kept open.

95. Mr Henderson: The problem is that there is a belief that another wave of such closures may be coming along, and it will be easier for the profitable post offices to obtain subsidies, now and in the future, if they are taken out now. You must remember that the Post Office is a public body.

96. Mr Roberts: In response to Mr Clarke’s point, I agree that the six members that we represent are all profitable and economically viable, and I do not think that they need a subsidy. However, clearly some post offices are subsidised, and there needs to be some focus on them. I cannot speak for them —

97. Mr T Clarke: I am sorry to cut in on you; I do not mean to be rude. However, my problem is that I do not understand why there is a suggestion that we cut viable post offices in order to subsidise ones that are not viable. Why should the viable post offices not be considered safe, and the non-viable ones —

98. The Chairperson: That is obviously a strong point that we will make.

99. Mr Gormley: Most of the non-viable post offices are located in rural areas.

100. Mr Roberts: I want to hear how Royal Mail would answer that question, because I convened a meeting at which those questions were all asked, and it seems that that issue does not matter — it is pressing ahead with the closure programme, no matter how viable the post offices are. We have highlighted that to the press. We asked a very simple question: why is Royal Mail shutting down viable post offices, such as the six that have been mentioned?

101. Post offices need help and support in some areas, certainly in some rural areas. Essex is an example of quite a rural area, and Mrs McGill has highlighted areas such as West Tyrone. However, it is not simply the approach that is being taken in Essex that we are proposing; we have proposed a range of measures such as rates relief, more Government Departments directing more work to post offices, investing and supporting small businesses and small retailers, and the publication of PPS 5. All of those measures will help those small retailers and small post offices to provide a service to the community and contribute to the economy.

102. The Chairperson: Thank you, gentlemen — Charles, Liam, Sean and Glyn — for attending this afternoon’s meeting.

8 May 2008

Four Members of the Committee met with Post Office Ltd and the Pharmaceutical Society of Northern Ireland on 8 May 2008. The Committee wishes to thank participants for consenting that the following verbatim transcript be submitted to the Committee as evidence.

103. The Chairperson: OK, could I welcome the three delegates from the Post Office Ltd, Nick Beale, who, I understand, has come over especially for this meeting — and we are very grateful to you for that — Barbara, we are getting quite used to seeing over this last few days, and, indeed, Sheila, as well. You are very welcome to the Committee.

104. Can I just explain the situation here? You are probably aware, having arrived here today, it has been a very special day for Northern Ireland — a most unusual day in terms of the activity within the Parliament Buildings, Stormont, and the very prestigious guest list that there has been here. It has left us with the situation of not being able to move forward in a quorate situation. Having said that, that really only takes away from some of the procedures of the Committee that the Committee is required to adhere to in a formal sense.

105. We are going to go ahead with the meeting in terms of receiving evidence from you, so, apart from the formal side of the Committee meeting, the meeting will take place just as if it were a formal Committee meeting.

106. The three of you are very welcome to the Committee. You will understand the concerns — I know Barbara will understand from a meeting that we were at one evening the concerns that there are throughout Northern Ireland, the very high number of people who turned out particularly for the east Belfast one, which I think was the largest attendance, and the very passionate feelings that there are, which were expressed at that meeting, which I have no doubt will be replicated at other meetings throughout the Province. Maybe if I could ask whichever format, whichever way you would want to deliver, if you would make your presentation first and then we would go on to a number of questions from the members and, indeed, we had planned to allocate about 30 minutes for that.

107. Mrs Barbara Roulston (Post Office Ltd.): I think what we decided we would do was just very briefly sum up where we were in the process and then devote the majority of the time to questions for you to ask to us. That might be the best use of the time.

108. So, just to summarise, you’ll be aware that we’ve put into public consultation proposals to close 96 post office branches across Northern Ireland, 42 of those complete closures and 54 of those to be replaced by an outreach post office service, which will be in a variety of formats, from a partner service, to a hosted service, to a mobile with differing numbers of hours depending on the current customer usage. We have been out and about during the past five weeks. I think we have had 60 meetings, both with public representatives and a variety of different stakeholder groups. We have been very much in listening mode, because although the Government have given us the difficult job of implementing their decision to close 2,500 post offices across the UK, what we have put forward are proposals. We have done a lot of planning and research and worked with Postwatch, our consumer watchdog, for them to have a look at what we were planning, and what we want to happen during the public consultation is for people to consider whether what we are proposing leaves them with reasonable access to post office services, and that really is the key thing in the public consultation. So, we have been very much in listening mode.

109. As you know, the public consultation closes on Monday 12 May. There will then be three weeks when we will literally read every single piece of correspondence that has come in to us, and Sheila will review it and take on board any comments and new evidence that comes to us about particular situations and particular proposals, and then, on 3 June, we will be announcing what our final decisions are.

110. The Chairperson: Can I just ask the very simple question at the very beginning — it is a consultation process. If a case is made for, and I know it has to be made against the criteria that you have set down, first of all, how rigid is the criteria and is it flexible? Can a post office be saved?

111. Mrs Roulston: We have, even before we went into public consultation, we changed 14 % of our original proposals and that was liaising and meeting with Postwatch and also walking the ground and taking local factors into consideration. In other regions where the programme is a bit further ahead than here, we have certainly changed our minds about post office proposals, but that is on the basis that we will put another one in to replace it, because the fact remains that we have been tasked with closing 2,500 post office branches. So, yes, if local evidence comes to us that makes us think that there is a particular social need or some other factors, which mean we need to retain a particular branch, we will certainly change our minds, but we will then put another one forward for proposed closure.

112. The Chairperson: So, the position really is that 42 will close and a total of 96 will be changed?

113. Mrs Roulston: In and around that, yes.

114. The Chairperson: In effect, the consultation period — at the end of the consultation period — then 42 post offices will close.

115. Mrs Roulston: Well, if we change our mind, they might not all close. We would then put another office into public consultation for a further six weeks. But, at the end of the process for Northern Ireland, we would be probably looking at closing in and around 96.

116. Mrs McGill: Just immediately, that is the first time that I heard from yourself that if you reconsider proposals to retain post offices earmarked for closure, and you change your mind about what happens, that another post office will close. Now, that is desperate if that is the strategy. I have to say I have been to a number of these and have spoken with yourselves. I have heard you at Strabane District Council. That is the first time I heard that comment.

117. Mrs Roulston: The Government has asked to close 2,500 post office branches. They have said they will only subsidise a network of 11,500. And they have said that every region of the UK must take a proportion, a share, of those changes. I am sorry if that has not come out to date, but we have not been hiding that fact. We have said it to anybody who has asked us.

118. Mr Nick Beale (Post Office Ltd): And it is also what has happened in all the plans before as well.

119. Mrs McGill: Can I ask is that — those comments that you have just made — are those comments in all of the documentation that you submitted to stakeholders, to ourselves, to councils? Was that included in any of the literature that you furnished us with at any stage?

120. Mrs Roulston: I am not sure it is written down, but any questions we have had about saving post offices we have made it clear that a substitute would follow.

121. Mrs McGill: Chair, it was never clear to me that that was the case, I have to say.

122. Mr T Clarke: Can I tease that slightly further if you bear, Chairman. I probably share, I did not realise that we might be arguing over 42 now, but if we change our mind on this, we are going to look at another 42. But surely, was part of the reason, I mean — and you did say that they were not going to subsidise any longer; they were going to subsidise less. We had a presentation here on Tuesday, and I think six of the people that was referred to in that presentation were all making a profit, so they are not allowed in a subsidy, so why close post offices that are not looking to be subsidised?

123. Mr Beale: I think there is a very important distinction to be made here between the profitability for the person that is running the branch against the profitability for the post office, and they are fundamentally different things. We recognise that for the sub-postmasters that run branches, it probably is profitable. That is why they run them. What makes it profitable for them partly is the fact that we pay them and pay them a subsidy, effectively, out of the funding that the Government provide us. That is what makes it unprofitable partly for us —

124. Mr T Clarke: Sorry, I need to break in on that. Whilst, yes, you are subsidising them — now, and I mean, I know that at a public meeting that Barbara, you were at, and there was various conversations about other people who ran post offices and you would not get into how much post offices made. But there was one person here — and it is probably in the minutes, or it is on the Hansard — who said, and, I mean, I will not identify the individual who said this, and it is not the one from South Antrim — but, first of all, what I would like to ask you, Nick, how much do you subsidise them by?

125. Mr Beale: The Government, at the moment pay, us a social network payment of £150 million, and that is the amount of money that they have committed to continuing to pay the company after the closures, the 2,500 closure programme. So, that money is effectively what helps fund — it is not all spent on sub-postmasters. Part of that funding is to cover the losses that the loss-making branches make.

126. Mr T Clarke: You are going away into a depth here where I do not want to go. I want to know to what extent do you fund each post office. Are you saying that you lift £150 million and you divide it by the number of post offices and give them an equal share? How much do you subsidise each individual post office in Northern Ireland?

127. Mr Beale: Every branch has an individual contract and within that contract there is a remuneration framework for them.

128. Mr T Clarke: Can you give me a range for the branches in Northern Ireland where that range starts and finishes?

129. Mr Beale: It will depend on their size and part of what we fund them will be a fixed payment, and part of what we pay them will be based on the transactions that they do. It will range from a very small amount to a much higher amount – from £1,000 up to £25,000.

130. Mr T Clarke: Is £25,000 the ceiling?

131. Mr Beale: There is no ceiling. It is a contract. I am giving you a range so that you can get an understanding of it. I am not prepared to give you specifics for specific branches. I will be quite clear on that, because I do not think that is the point here.

132. Mr T Clarke: Is the maximum £25,000?

133. Mr Beale: I cannot tell you what the maximum is. I do not know what the maximum is off the top of my head, but it is of that order of magnitude.

134. Mr T Clarke: This individual put on record in Hansard that his post office earns him £48,000 a year, so if you take away the £25,000, he is still in a considerable amount of profit.

135. Mr Beale: If he is earning £48,000, what does he mean by that? Is he being paid £48,000 by the Post Office?

136. Mr T Clarke: I thought you said that the limit was up to £25,000.

137. Mr Beale: I said the fixed payment. In addition to that fixed payment, they receive a payment for the transactions that they do, which is variable. So, every time they sell a stamp or pay a bill payment, they are paid a small amount by us for doing that. So, in addition to the fixed payment that they get, they get a variable payment. That £48,000 that you refer to may well include that. I cannot comment on that specifically. Obviously, I do not know the particular dynamics of that example. That may well be £48,000 from the Post Office that he receives. What I am saying is that out of the funding that the Government give us, a certain amount of that funding is used to help to fund the payments to the sub-post offices and a certain amount of that funding is helped to pay infrastructure costs that exist for that post office to run the cost to us, so, for example, the IT systems in that branch. Both of those things are what contribute to it being loss making from Post Office’s perspective. The fact that that sub-postmaster gets £48,000 from us, how that £48,000 works into his accounts and makes his profit and loss account operate, we do not know that. We have no sight of his staff costs, his running costs, etc.

138. Mr T Clarke: Surely, if a post office is going to continue making money anywhere, it is a positive sign where you are going to be paying him for so much of the service that he is providing. That means that his post office is busy. If he is getting so much for selling a stamp and for all the transactions that he is doing, that means that he is turning over an income for the Post Office. The Post Office is making money and he is getting his portion back.

139. Mr Beale: Yes, but we are not making a profit. We might be getting income from the transactions that he does, but we do not make a profit on that unless the volume of transactions that he does is significant enough for us to make a profit. Out of that income that we derive, we have to pay for the transaction, we pay them a fixed payment and, effectively, we pay for the infrastructure costs. Part of that is helped by what the Government are subsidising us for, but they are not paying us for the whole of the cost infrastructure in the company — they are only paying for a part of it. So, in a simple sense, these numbers are illustrative, they are not indicative or exact. However, if that business is doing transactions that derive income for us of £20,000, and we are paying them £10,000 to do that and another £15,000 fixed payment before any infrastructure costs, that branch is losing £5,000 for the Post Office.

140. Mr T Clarke: Part of the presentation that the Post Office made in the past in public meetings, you said that some of the branches had only 30 people over the doors in a week. This branch has 1,200, so the case that you are making when you go to public meetings is the small turnover in the post offices. However, we have here one individual who is putting on record how much he is earning from the post office and he is telling us that he has 1,200 people over his doors using the post office services per week. So how can you come to a decision to close such a post office?

141. Mr Beale: OK. I cannot comment on what has been said in the public meetings, but I shall certainly try to explain how the branches across the UK, including Northern Ireland, have been selected, and that has been on a consistent basis. Government were very clear in their decision document about the access criteria we were required to achieve when this programme is completed, and I think they will be familiar to you.

142. I can obviously say what they are if you wish me to, but I think they are familiar to you. What they were not explicit about were the criteria by which we close branches, by which we select branches to close or outreach. They introduced into their decision a number of factors; so they said, for example, that the closures must be a combination of least used and least commercial. They have introduced criteria that have said there must be, broadly speaking, an even spread of closures across the UK. They must be evenly spread between rural and urban areas. They have also said that the impact on customers must be minimised — clearly not eradicated, because that is impossible if you close a post office.

143. So, using all of those factors, we have developed, in the first instance, a desktop plan, which is the first aspect, which is brought into the blueprint validation process, which, eventually, after validation and scrutiny by Postwatch, makes its way into the public consultation. Barbara made reference earlier to the fact that there are a number of changes made to that plan — that desktop plan — prior to it going into consultation.

144. Based on the parameters that the Government have set, they certainly have not set a ceiling on anything in terms of the size of post office that must not be shut, and in order to meet the balance of factors that the Government have set here, we have to close a combination of very small used post offices that are some distance from other post offices, so thereby minimising the impact by it being a very small post office, and some of the post offices that we have to close are much larger, in terms of customer usage, but are much nearer to other alternative services. And bearing in mind that the consultation is about ensuring that the service provision after the proposed closure is correct, within the parameters that the Government have asked us to work, that is why you will see some large post offices closed.

145. Now the other point —

146. Mr T Clarke: Sorry, Chairman, we are going in a bit a deep now. At the outset, you said that some of the factors were least used and least commercial, and now you are saying that some of the decisions might show that that is not the case. Is that not contrary —

147. Mr Beale: I didn’t say that.

148. Mr T Clarke: I can think of the one in South Antrim, where the one in Parkhall is more commercially viable than the one in Greystone.

149. Mr Beale: Well, that may well be for the sub-postmaster, but it won’t necessarily be the case for Post Office Ltd.

150. Mr T Clarke: Sorry, can you tell me the footfall difference between the two?

151. Mr Beale: I can’t, no. I don’t have that information in front of me. I’m sure that —

152. Mrs Roulston: From recollection, Greystone has the bigger footfall, but the fact of the matter is that when we take the four factors of customer transactions, proximity to neighbouring branches, capacity-absorbed footfall and the commercial benefit to Post Office Ltd, those other branches are more viable than Parkhall in that instance, and that is just a fact. Now, this is where our sub-postmasters sometimes say from their perspective, as an individual businessperson, their post office is viable and profitable. But, as Nick has been trying to explain, to Post Office Ltd, they are not.

153. Mr Beale: Can I also add to that that actually the outcome here is about viability of the whole network after the proposal — not individual branches. Obviously individual branches make up that whole, but it is about the whole. The consequence of closing a busy branch is for business to go somewhere else. That is our aspiration and that is our intention. By that business going somewhere else, that improves the viability of other branches and thereby improves the whole.

154. The other factor to mention here, which again Barbara touched on, is about the financial side of this. The profitability of the branch, whether it be our profitability or loss — as is the case in these branches — or for the sub-postmaster, is not the financial fact here: it is the amount of mon