Official Report (Hansard)

Session: 2014/2015

Date: 15 October 2014

Committee for Employment and Learning

PDF version of this report (204.88 kb)

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): I welcome the delegation.  I will give you up to 10 minutes to brief the Committee, and then we will open it up for questions.

Mr Martin Fallon (Reed in Partnership): Good afternoon.  We are glad to be here.  I am the managing director of Reed in Partnership.  I am joined today by two colleagues: Rhodri Thomas, the director of business development, and Christine Shaw, our supply chain manager. 

During the past 16 years, we have built a reputation as a trusted provider of welfare-to-work services.  We started back in 1998 supporting long-term jobseekers into work in a particularly deprived area of London.  We are a medium-sized company, with 355 staff.  We take a work-first approach on employment services.  That means that our discussions with participants will always centre on overcoming barriers and getting into work.  As part of the Reed Group, we have 50 years' experience of working with employers and meeting the needs of those employers, including, since 1995, those in Northern Ireland.  We have used our experience and that of our supply chain to create a personalised Steps 2 Success service that will meet the needs of participants in the southern region.

Ms Christine Shaw (Reed in Partnership): Our supply chain is made up of four end-to-end providers:  Network Personnel, which will be delivering for us in Omagh, Magherafelt and Cookstown; Rutledge Training, which will cover Fermanagh; Global Education Logistics (GEL) will cover Dungannon; and the South Eastern Regional College (SERC) will cover Downpatrick, Kilkeel, Newcastle and Ballynahinch.  Our end-to-end providers were selected through an extensive two-stage expression-of-interest process.  There was a variety of selection criteria but, in the main, we were looking for organisations that had experience of working with a wide range of clients, such as those who will be referred to Steps 2 Success, and, secondly, those organisations that demonstrated high levels of quality service with high performance on mandatory programmes. In addition to our four end-to-end providers, we will be working with a range of specialist providers.  Our specialist providers will give support to clients that the end-to-end providers may not necessarily have themselves.  Examples of those organisations include Ulster Supported Employment Limited (USEL); Supported Employment Solutions (SES), a consortium of seven disability organisations; Global Horizon Skills; and North West Academy, which will provide us with ESOL support.  In addition, we will work with organisations that can offer advice, such as the Simon Community, on housing; the Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders (NIACRO); and Addiction NI.  Also, our partnership manager will work with other local voluntary and community organisations to ensure that participants to the programme receive the best possible fully rounded service available to them.

Mr Rhodri Thomas (Reed in Partnership): Our delivery model slide provides a snapshot of the interventions that we will provide to participants on the Steps 2 Success programme.  We developed our delivery model through engagement with our supply-chain partners and also based on our experience of delivering successful welfare-to-work programmes for the past 16 years.  We also undertook a lot of engagement with local community organisations such as local enterprise partnerships and local authorities.  We did a survey of unemployed people and also linked in to the employers that we work with in Northern Ireland already and with employer organisations such as the CBI.

I will move to the delivery model.  At the initial referral and induction stage, our employment advisers will telephone the participants to book in a suitable time for the appointment.  They will then receive a welcome pack setting out our service guarantees and essentially what the participants will gain from participating in the programme.  At that initial appointment, the participant will undergo a really detailed diagnostic assessment, and that forms the foundation of what will happen to the participant whilst on the programme.  The diagnostic will look at things such as their current circumstances, their previous experience and qualifications, motivation and confidence, job goals and, specifically for people on employment and support allowance (ESA) and jobseeker's allowance (JSA) claimants with a health barrier, we will carry out a detailed health and work assessment. 

All that will lead into a personalised employment plan and, from there, the participant will move into what we call our work focus support.  That is a three-step model.  The first stage is particularly for people on ESA and people with health barriers, and they will spend some time overcoming those issues, either with referral to our specialist partners, some of our in-house provision such as our occupational psychologist and by spending time with our employment advisers to discuss suitable roles given their health needs.  The second stage of our model is very much about the interventions that we provide, such as employability training, IT support for people who may find applying for jobs online difficult, work experience and vocational training.  Our advisers will be trained in providing support on personal barriers such as debt advice, which we know can be a barrier for some people accessing work.  Finally, when people who have gone through that support and intervention become ready for work, we will provide interventions around job search support, help with interviews skills and teamwork.  On this slide, we provide a quick example — I know that we are pushed for time — of a customer and the barriers that would have been identified during their diagnostic assessment and then the type of interventions that they would receive whilst on the programme.

I will turn to what happens when people find work.  We recognise that this can be a difficult transition point, particularly for people who may have very little experience of employment.  Our advisers will undertake a pre-work interview to help address issues such as travel routes into work and timekeeping, and we have made provision to support people with some of those initial costs of returning to work such as interview clothes and travel costs for the first few weeks.  In recognising the policy imperative around sustainability in the move from Steps to Work to Steps 2 Success, we will have a 12-month in-work support provision provided by employment advisers.  Then, at six months, to help career progression, there will be a review with the adviser and the participant to ensure that issues such as further training and discussions around pay and career progression can take place, because we know from our experience that customers will often need to increase their hours and have discussions around what future promotion opportunities may be available.

Our service offer provides an overview of the things that we believe are really important in terms of delivering a successful programme.  It is important to state that we will provide a consistent service across the seven regions, and that will be ensured through constant monitoring and reporting against our service guarantees and also through a one-team approach with Reed and our supply-chain delivery, ensuring that vacancies, resources and best practice are shared across the supply chain.

As Martin mentioned, our delivery is very much based around a work-first approach, with all our activities designed to help move participants closer to and into employment.  That means that every participant will have a dedicated employment adviser.  They will leave their first appointment with identified job goals and a better-off calculation to show them the financial benefits of returning to work. We know from our experience that the success of the programme is hugely reliant on the support provided by our employment advisers.  Reed is a Matrix-accredited organisation, and that recognises the quality and standards of the information, advice and guidance we provide.  Our advisers undertake a very detailed induction process, as part of which they undertake qualifications in information, advice and guidance to make sure that they have the right skills to support participants.  We also have a dedicated curriculum development team that creates qualifications and non-accredited training to respond to employer needs, so we can quickly address any skills or training gaps that emerge.

We also know that self-employment will be critical to the success of the programme.  Our advisers are trained in helping people to address the initial steps to self-employment, and we have specialist adviser support to help people make that transition as they begin trading.  I have provided a slide identifying one of the specific training interventions that we have developed, which is around 3G, where we help increase someone's mindset and aptitude for returning to work.  We can provide some more information on that in the question-and-answer sessions.  I will now pass over to Christine who will talk through our employer offer.

Ms Shaw: Reed is the UK's most recognised recruitment brand.  We have over 50 years' experience of meeting the needs of employers and have recruitment managers working across the contract package area.  Work is already under way with employers, the purpose of which has been threefold.  First, it has been to introduce ourselves in the area.  Secondly, it has been to raise awareness of Steps 2 Success.  We are aware that employers may be used to the existing programme, Steps to Work, so this is new to them, and we are keen to highlight the differences.  Thirdly, we are keen to identify how we can support them with their recruitment needs, whether through careful screening or preparation of participants, rather than sending them lots of participants for a particular interview if they are not well matched.

Our aim is to be the employers' recruiter of choice.  We have contacted a large number of employers to date, and work is ongoing.

Mr Fallon: In summary, we put work first, and we expect participants to do the same.  We talk about barriers in the context of finding work.  We are committed to Steps 2 Success.  It is a great opportunity to develop our business in a new region, and we hope that this is the start of a long relationship and presence in Northern Ireland.  We are committed to working with the Department to implement the contract successfully and to deliver the high performance that is required.  We are committed to improving the Northern Ireland economy by helping unemployed people improve their chances of finding and sustaining employment.  To that end, we have invested in infrastructure here to deliver the contract successfully.  That concludes our presentation.  We are happy to answer any questions you may have.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): Thank you very much.  What are your percentage targets for getting people into work during the programme?

Mr Fallon: We have a detailed set of targets provided by the Department.  I think there are 92 different targets in all for each category.  We can certainly make those available to the Committee.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): That is 92%?

Mr Fallon: No, sorry, there are 92 categories.

Mr Thomas: Yes, we have targets for each of the different customer groups, such as JSA claimants aged 18 to 24, targets for year 1, year 2, year 3 and year 4, which include job entry, and targets for sustainment of three months, six months, nine months and 12 months.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): I am just looking at some stuff in the pack, and it states that, of 32,600 who were referred to the company, 6,450 achieved a job outcome, giving a percentage rate of 21%.  Do you not think that is rather low?

Mr Fallon: Sorry, which programmes do they relate to?  I wonder if you might repeat the question, because I am not sure where those figures are from.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): They are from a research paper that we had done.

Mr Hilditch: Chair, I think it is the work that was done in west London.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): Yes, that was London, but of 32,600 who were referred to your company, 6,450 achieved a job outcome, which was a percentage rate of 21%.  Do you not think that that is a fairly low percentage for getting people off benefits and into employment?

Mr Fallon: Were that the final conversion rate for the programme, yes, it would be low.  It depends what period that relates to.  Our work programme performance in this current year and in the rolling year sees us ahead of all of our targets that have been set with the Department for Work and Pensions.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): I suppose, as a Committee, we can send the research paper to you folk.  I would like to think that, when coming in to deliver a programme here in Northern Ireland, the percentage of people getting into employment would be more than 21%.

Mr Fallon: The point that I was making is that the way in which the work programme's results were measured required the programme to work for almost 18 months before the job outcomes were counted.

Mr Thomas: On our previous contracts for Employment Zone, which was the precursor to the work programme, our average was between 36% and 44% when the programme was concluded.  That sort of standard is seen across some of our current contracts which are just coming to conclusion now.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): Fair enough.

Ms McGahan: I should declare an interest.  I am a board member of Dungannon Enterprise Centre.

Regarding opportunities in the self-employment element of it, what engagement have you had with Dungannon and Fermanagh Enterprise Centre, which is also in my constituency?  It is a largely rural area, as I am sure that you aware.

Ms Shaw: Certainly.  I will take that question, Bronwyn.  As supply chain manager, the local enterprise agencies are under my umbrella.  The self-employment journey on Steps 2 Success is somewhat different from what it is currently on Steps to Work.  What we have been doing is continuing to engage.  I personally have been engaging with Denise Murtagh and John Treacy at the Fermanagh Enterprise Centre to see how we can work together and link up with this new programme.  Obviously, it needs to be somewhat different from the current Steps to Work arrangement.  This has actually involved a number of meetings over the past year or so to ensure that they are aware of who we are and what our delivery model looks like and also to really make them aware of the changes in the programme, because obviously some of them have been running Steps to Work for a number of years.  They have been used to the programme working a certain way.

We are unable to work with these providers on an end-to-end basis, but we are still very keen to link in with them.  Indeed, we will be doing so because part of the Steps 2 Success programme involves the regional start initiative, which most of the local enterprise agencies (LEAs) operate or run themselves on behalf of Invest NI.  We will still need that relationship building, but I know for a fact that GEL, which will operate in Dungannon, and Rutledge which will be in Fermanagh already have very good existing links with the local enterprise agencies in their areas, so we very much want to pursue relationships with them.  At this time, we are just not able to define exactly how they will look.

Ms McGahan: OK.  Thank you for that.  I noticed on the Internet that you carried out a research report on the costs of moving from benefits into employment.  These are old figures dating back to 2011.  Four thousand long-term job seekers moved from benefits into employment.  It is stated that 96% of them needed financial support.  Did you carry out any such research here for the North?  Given the fact that there is an issue with affordable childcare in particular rural areas, are you able to bridge that gap for people going into employment?

Mr Thomas: I will pick up on the research report.  We know from our experience that, often, when you have been unemployed for a long time, you do not have the savings to actually start back in work.  That is why we have put provision in our own budget to provide support to participants with that transition.  It is a key aspect really to helping someone into a job and ensuring that they then sustain it for the length of time that they will need to on this programme, and that is a key policy driver.  Christine, do you want to pick up on the childcare issue?

Ms Shaw: Certainly, childcare and travel costs will remain as they are in Steps to Work in that they will be reimbursed back to the participants.  From our point of view, we do not want to make it difficult for a participant to attend an appointment.  It is in our best interests to ensure that the participant fully engages and is able to engage.  So, if we can do something flexible with regard to what time they need to be in the office, we will work with them along those lines and do everything that we can to support them along their journey because we understand that things like childcare and travel have to be taken into account.

Mr Thomas: We have previously very successfully run voluntary single parent programmes in England and Scotland, so we know how to approach employers for child-friendly hours etc.  I think, Martin, on those contracts, we were the best provider in GB with regard to achieving job entry and sustaining job outcomes in those single parent contracts.

Mr Flanagan: Thanks for the presentation.  How much does Reed in Partnership plan to earn from the Steps 2 Success scheme?

Mr Fallon: That will largely depend on our results; it is a payment-by-results contract.  The two factors are the referrals to the programme, which are indicated and confirmed, and how well those people do on the programme.

Mr Flanagan: Can you give me a rough figure?

Mr Fallon: It is very difficult to establish an exact figure.  We anticipate successfully meeting the targets in the four years of the programme, but it is difficult to establish at this stage what sort of profit we would make from it.

Mr Flanagan: What sort of a rough figure are you talking about?  Hundreds of thousands or millions?

Mr Fallon: To be indicative, in the 16 years that we have been in operation, our return on investment after tax has worked out at 2·8%.  So, that may give you an indication.  We are not in this sector to profiteer; we are here to deliver a service.  I hope that gives you some indication of the sort of margins that we are working to.

Mr Flanagan: What do you have to spend money on?

Mr Fallon: Property, people, the services and their development, the systems that we use and a whole range of things that support the service that we deliver.

Mr Flanagan: How many staff do you have directly employed here?

Mr Fallon: There will be 52 employed by us, and our supply chain —

Ms Shaw: A further 47.

Mr Flanagan: So, you have recruited 52 people since the scheme started.

Mr Fallon: Yes.  Sorry, let me correct myself: 27 have already been recruited, and by January we will have 52 people working for us.  There will be a ramp-up over that period.

Mr Flanagan: There are senior positions that I have seen advertised, including that of an operations manager and a Northern Ireland director.  From what I saw in the job advertisements, the annual salary for those posts is about £60,000 a year.  Is that a salary, or is it performance-related pay?

Mr Fallon: No, we intend to pay salaries in the top quartile for all of the positions that we are recruiting for.  There is no performance-related pay involved in what we do.

Mr Flanagan: For any of your staff.

Mr Fallon: No.

Mr Flanagan: The figures that Tom referred to do not inspire confidence.  Are you hopeful that you will perform better here?  Are there differences in the work programme and the Steps 2 Success scheme that make you think that the performance return you have here in terms of getting people into work placements will improve?

Mr Fallon: There are differences.  I was trying to indicate that the figures are incomplete in terms of the time frame for the work programme.  The work programme is still going, and more and more people are going into work.  There is a lead time between a person going into work and their doing so being counted as a job outcome.  At the beginning of the work programme, there was a massive influx of referrals that had to work their way through.  We are extremely confident with Steps 2 Success that we will meet and exceed the targets that have been set for us by the Department.

Mr Flanagan: One of the problems that we face is that we have a highly skilled workforce that cannot get employment.  So, we have graduates working in retail stores on zero-hour contracts for very low pay and no security.  How can we be assured, as a scrutiny Committee, that public money will not be used to subsidise large retail stores giving people low-paid, casual jobs through the scheme?

Mr Fallon: We are committed to, as far as possible, matching the skills and potential of the participants on the programme with the needs of the employers we work with.  We cannot create jobs, obviously, but we can prepare people most effectively.  From what I have read, I know that some Committee members are concerned about the possibility of churning.  Churning is of no value to us, and putting overqualified people into jobs that you know, from the beginning, they will not stay in is not in our interests or in the interests of those people.  We would lose faith with the people we are there to support.

Mr Flanagan: Is it not in your interest in terms of hitting your targets?

Mr Fallon: We would not hit our targets if we tried to shoehorn highly qualified people into zero-hours contracts.  This is a personalised service, and it may suit a particular individual to start at the first rung on the ladder.  We are not saying that we are going to ignore entry-level jobs, but we will not shoehorn people who are overqualified into those jobs.

Mr Flanagan: You are giving us a guarantee that your members of staff and people in the supply chain will not get people into just any type of job, regardless of the quality of the job, their skills and qualifications.

Mr Fallon: Yes.  I am confident that I can say that we will not.

Mr Thomas: An important aspect is that, as an organisation, we started the Reed Group originally around recruitment and employers, and we are very much about building long-term relationships with employers.  If we put people into jobs with employers and they only stay there for three or four weeks, the cost of that to the employer is significant, and we will lose the future vacancies that arise from those opportunities. If you look at our current performance, it is very much about long-term relationships with employers and matching the right people to the right jobs.  That is the basis on which our mainstream recruitment business functions.

Mr Flanagan: You have brought me on to my final question, which is my big concern about your organisation being given this contract.  You are a private company that delivers those programmes, but you are also affiliated with a recruitment company.  Are there any safeguards in place to make sure that public money is not subsidising Reed to carry out basic recruitment activity so that somebody going through the Steps 2 Success scheme is not being placed in a job opportunity that has been advertised through Reid and, in effect, your company or companies are being paid twice?

Mr Fallon: I can give you an undertaking that that has not happened and will not happen.  Reed in Partnership stands alone.  We are a separate organisation from the recruitment company.  We are distant cousins, if you like.  The Reed name opens doors to us — there is no question about that because of the brand awareness — but there is no direct link to fulfilling employer needs through Reed Recruitment.

Mr Flanagan: You will not give them preferential treatment when filling vacancies and things like that.

Mr Fallon: No, definitely not.

Mr Flanagan: Thanks for that.

Mr P Ramsey: You are very welcome.  Members are coming from a perspective where we have seen contractors and subcontractors in the local community, and there was consistency and continuity, which was testimony to good practices, and they were successfully meeting the targets set by the Department.  So, when we became aware of a process that now leads to what, in essence, is the exclusion of any local leading contractors, it causes us concern.  Your geographical area is mid-Ulster and west of the Bann, where there are higher levels of unemployment, and, over the last number of years, there have been higher levels of companies and small contractors going bust and higher levels of economic inactivity.  Convince me that you are going to do this job better than the contractors who were doing it under Steps to Work.

Mr Fallon: OK.  First, perhaps it might be useful to talk about the way that we have selected our supply chains.  We have a blended delivery.

Ms Shaw: The expression of interest process was open to any provider in the southern contract package area (CPA).  As I have mentioned previously, it was an extensive two-stage process, and every organisation was measured against set criteria.  We have talked about our interest and experience in dealing with a wide range of client groups.  We have young people who are going to be referred to Steps 2 Success and ESA clients.  So, we were looking for that kind of experience and also proof that they would perform well at other programmes, particularly mandatory programmes.  That gave us the reassurance that we have a very strong supply chain.  In fact, a few of them are lead contractors under the current Steps to Work programme.

Mr P Ramsey: OK.  I asked this question to another company:  how many contractors that you are going to use were under Steps to Work?  How many have lost out?

Ms Shaw: How many job losses have there been?

Mr P Ramsey: Subcontractors and also jobs.

Ms Shaw: We are not aware of any job losses in the organisations.

Mr P Ramsey: Delivering Steps to Work?

Ms Shaw: With Steps to Work, we have actively been engaging with existing providers of Steps to Work in relation to the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE).  So, if any staff who are potentially working on Steps to Work and may face a potential job loss, we will get their TUPE information so that we can start engaging with those employees because we want to do everything that we can to prevent job losses.

Mr P Ramsey: At this stage you must have an idea how many employees you need and how many exist currently under the contractors or subcontractors on Steps to Work.

Mr Fallon: We believe 17 employees may be covered by the TUPE regulations.  We have left provision within our recruitment to accommodate those in our subsequent recruitment phases that go on until January.  At this moment, no one has lost their job, and there is no intention to create a set of circumstances where that happens.

Mr P Ramsey: That is reassuring for some of the people.  I must say, I was interested in your quote, which might come back to haunt you, that you are going to meet and exceed the targets set by the Department.  I saw some of the Department's movement in the Public Gallery when you said that.  Convince me of how you will do that.

Mr Fallon: There are challenges with any programme and they are part of an equation.  There are participants in the programme and there are employers.  Our purpose is to ensure that we can bring the two together in a meaningful way, increasing the confidence and skills of the participants and working with a sufficient number of employers on a continuous basis to make that happen.

This business, like many others, is very dependent on management information and being on top of what you are doing so that you are not in a situation where, at the end of a year, you say, "We missed our target".  We need to be on top of what we are doing all the time, have an expectation of what we need to achieve at any given period, and if we are not achieving it, to do something about it.

Doing something about it is about addressing where the pinch points are occurring.  Do we need more of this resource here; do we need different interventions?  It is about being on top of the programme and working at it to get optimum results right the way through the lifetime of the contract.  This is a starting point but it is ongoing and we need to be responsive and relevant to a changing economy.

Mr P Ramsey: OK, we look forward to the progress on it and we wish you well.  You made reference to a survey of unemployed people in the geographical area.  How were those identified?  What was the purpose of it, and what were the outcomes?  We just heard from the Department about a disability strategy that it is bringing forward, given the high levels of disability and learning disability.  Do you have targets for that area as well, to get meaningful work for disabled people?

Mr Thomas: Our sister company reed.co.uk. has a large number of people registered on its jobs website in Northern Ireland, so we use that as a vehicle to collect some information.  A lot of it is quantitative information about what people see as their own personal barriers, which helped to cement some of the things that you will see in the delivery model slide around the specific interventions for people with digital inclusions.

A lot of people came back and said, "Actually, one of the things that would be a benefit is how you send the CV online, how you develop a CV etc."  That is one of the things that is then factored into the services that we provide.  As Martin said, though, what we aim to see is the services that we provide evolve with a detailed process within our contracts for collecting evaluation of survey responses from our participants.  That is an active process of ensuring that we are capturing best practice and continuous improvements for our own delivery.

Mr P Ramsey: I clearly have a huge personal and political interest in disability issues, particularly for young people with learning disabilities.  Could you come back at a later stage to tell me how you are engaging with that sector to effectively, hopefully, gain them employment opportunities?

Mr Fallon: Yes.

Mr F McCann: Chair, I will be brief.  I think one of the other successful companies said that the breakdown of the resources would be 60% spent here and 40% in England or wherever their base is.  What way does that break down with you?

Mr Fallon: I think we will have three people based in Liverpool.  The rest will be based in Northern Ireland.

Mr F McCann: So, all the telephone connections will be based here.

Mr Fallon: Yes.

Mr F McCann: We talk about people going into employment that is sustainable, but how is that worked out?  Is it six, 12 or 18 months?

Mr Fallon: It is up to 12 months within the terms of the contract, but, during that period, one obviously hopes to support people in a way that enables them to carry on beyond that.  Contractually, it is for 12 months.

Mr F McCann: The Deputy Chair spoke earlier about statistics — I think that it was 21,000 —

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): Twenty-one per cent.

Mr F McCann: Sorry, 21%.  Have you done any analysis of how many of those 21% stayed in employment, left or went into other employment?

Mr Fallon: Those still in employment are running — Roger can correct me — at around 70% to 80%.

Mr F McCann: Is that after 12 months?

Mr Thomas: Yes.  A number of people may go into two or three jobs.  That is one of the particular features of the labour market in west London, where our proven contract is.  Some people will move out of one job and into another within three or four weeks.  We support them through that process.  The work programme figures that you have are out of date in the sense of job outcomes.  However, even those figures show that we are one of the best providers in ensuring that people enter and sustain work.  That comes from our experience in placing the right people in the right jobs.

Mr Fallon: Part of sustaining employment may come from people having more than one job.  Progression may come from getting started and then moving across, and, if that is appropriate, we want to support people to do that during that period as well.

Mr Thomas: We know that they, particularly graduates, may often need to take an entry-level job to start with.  Part of our process is to use that to gain them some workplace experience and references, which are often critical for employers, and we then help them to progress to a more suitable role.  Obviously, every customer is different, but there are different routes to the ultimate job goal that people have, rather than aiming to get them into that job straight away when they have no relevant work experience or references.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): Perhaps you will provide the Committee with the updated figures on how many stay in employment after 12 months.

Mr Fallon: OK.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Buchanan): There are no more questions, so thank you very much for coming to the Committee to make your presentation and take questions.  We wish you well.

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